L2, which is the game most of the people arging against this form of chat spent a lot of time in, didn't have a global chat at all, and so naturally they don't see the need for it, and are talking up the negative aspects of it without really considering the implications of the positive side, nor even how to reduce those negative aspects.
OMG, yes it HAD IT. But it was limited to HEROES ONLY.
That is the same as not having it.
It didn't have the functionality we are talking about, even if it had something vaugely similar.
NiKr was the one that bought up chat channels, not me.
What's your issue dude?
Oh, really? Weren't you the one whining that "poor players in difficult situations wouldn't be able to ask for help, if their HP bars are invisible"?
No.
I said that if they were visable (as per the games current design), then it will be easier to assess if someone you pass by needs assistance or not, and NiKr then commented that people can just ask for help in local chat.
You've got some real issues dude, you just want to blame me for everything. Get help.
Global chats can be disabled (in solid MMOs...), if someone doesn't like them. As for many things: The more options and diversity is available for real player choice, the better.
But: Why is there a discussion about chat going on? Isn't this something trivial and default in a MMO and not really a huge deal? There must be several different and solid chat possibilities and all of them the player should be able to enable or disable to his will and choice. That's it. Chats, combat logs, whatever. What's the real issue? Use it, or disable it - no?
L2, which is the game most of the people arging against this form of chat spent a lot of time in, didn't have a global chat at all, and so naturally they don't see the need for it, and are talking up the negative aspects of it without really considering the implications of the positive side, nor even how to reduce those negative aspects.
That is basically all it comes down to.
I understand.
But well, it's not a game only for them (we already explained that to them). You know it, I know it. Just read other sites and forums in the internet. That's a speciality of THIS forum - for the moment.
Chats can be enabled, or disabled. If someone likes a global chat, for whatever reason, use it. If not, disable it.
It's trivial, it's a 20 years old feature. Choice is always better than limitation.
L2, which is the game most of the people arging against this form of chat spent a lot of time in, didn't have a global chat at all, and so naturally they don't see the need for it, and are talking up the negative aspects of it without really considering the implications of the positive side, nor even how to reduce those negative aspects.
OMG, yes it HAD IT. But it was limited to HEROES ONLY. You've been told that and now you are lying again, this time - knowingly. That global chat was useful, but it could be turned off, if player doesn't want it. And even with ~35 players having access to it, it could get pretty spammy even when moderated by in-game admins or moderators.
In addition to this, 3 random screenshots from a random L2 longplay video. Blue text = global chat
That's normal, Flanker. Just disable the chat if you don't need it at this particual moment. Enable it, if you need it (global trade, selling, whatsoever...). That's really normal in MMOs, it's fine, nothing to worry about, really.
You know, I've played several MMOs (but not L2), but it's no serious issue, as long (!) as there is a possibility to enable/disable every single chat provided from the game/developers. Easy going.
There will be a region/local chat in Ashes, right? So a chat that will hold meaningful (depending on the community...) information about "what's just right now going on", right? So, if this is the case and a player, a group, a guild wants to focus on that - disbale global chat.
If you are idling in your city and you are looking for global information (or you want to spread global information or discussion), use that chat. There will be limited options for connected auction houses, so I'm convinced that (global) trading will shift to the global chat, or a trade chat (if available, hopefully).
I understand.
But well, it's not a game only for them (we already explained that to them). You know it, I know it.
Yeah, that's why I keep pointing out the L2 specific things that haven't been the case for decades.
NiKr generally understands these points. He seems to get that L2 was a specific game that was in part a product of it's time in terms of technology, and in part a product of the industry still figuring out how an MMORPG should be. He liked the game a lot and so has something of rose tinted glasses when looking at it (understandable), but he gets it.
@Ludullu_(NiKr) feel free to correct me if you think the above isn't accurate.
However, it's this new guy thats a problem right now. He isn't understanding that he is walking in to a conversation that is years old, is trying to equate features L2 had to those that other games had, even if the function and purpose of them were wildly different, seems to have a boner for me for some reason, doesn't know how to use forums, can't read properly and is basically just being a menace.
You've got some real issues dude, you just want to blame me for everything. Get help.
So to summarize, calling you out on:
> Talking about the game you know nothing about;
> Suggesting things that fit your personal preferences instead of them being good for overall game's longevity;
> Misrepresenting facts and intentional twisting of words;
> Making false statements based on thin air;
> Using manipulations;
> Using arguments with obvious logical fallacies;
> Jumping from one topic to another the moment when you get cornered?
> Etc.
... is the reason why I need help now? xD Grow some fur on those tiny things in your pants and act like a grown-up man.
Chats can be enabled, or disabled. If someone likes a global chat, for whatever reason, use it. If not, disable it.
It's trivial, it's a 20 years old feature. Choice is always better than limitation.
Exactly. If it's toggleable - I don't care. Meanwhile, it's also important to acknowledge that it can be used by spammers and gold traders which would require many moderators across all the servers. This ends up being a decent workload for Intrepid and extra expenses. If they are willing to do that and capable of tacking those potential issues - by all means, go for it. But I'm skeptical about it, at least for now.
There will be a region/local chat in Ashes, right? So a chat that will hold meaningful (depending on the community...) information about "what's just right now going on", right? So, if this is the case and a player, a group, a guild wants to focus on that - disbale global chat.
If you are idling in your city and you are looking for global information (or you want to spread global information or discussion), use that chat. There will be limited options for connected auction houses, so I'm convinced that (global) trading will shift to the global chat, or a trade chat (if available, hopefully).
L2 was a specific game that was in part a product of it's time in terms of technology, and in part a product of the industry still figuring out how an MMORPG should be. He liked the game a lot and so has something of rose tinted glasses when looking at it (understandable), but he gets it..
If I'm not wrong, L2 and WoW both started quite at the same time (end of 2003 / beginning of 2004 (valid for EU Release in WoW -> my start).
So, you can assume, that there where like two fully different mentalities and attitudes of player types starting those two different MMOs. Today we know, from history, what happend with both games. One is releasing Addon after Addon (now with an entire new trilogy) + revivial of the "old" gameplay (WoW Classic) and the other MMO is quite dead (obviously because of bad developer decisions, whatever - I'm conviced it's not only that, but nobody wants to discuss that).
WoW (or GW2, or ESO, or ...) players and L2 (or AA?, or ...?) players will only find few similarities for some mechanics and features.
I've really played a lot of MMOs. And I know a lot of people from my country/region (EU), some US, that play "this" kind of MMOs. I don't know ONE player that played Lineage2. So, it's seems to be, I really don't know, a topic about culture (??? - no offense meant! Just thinking loud) mentality, attitude and behaviour why somebody plays WoW-like games or somebody playes L2-like games. In both you have pvp (played for years on permanent pvp-servers, so do not tell my something about 100% pvp uptime at every second of playing) and hundrets of features. WoW did a huge evolution during the years, still beating most of all the other MMOs in between, as the create or copy with excellence and highest production quality. WoW is different to 2004. Yes, it is. Not WoW classic, but retail. That's the success story. Players changed, so the game changed accordingly. Once you adept a bit (GW2, ESO) you can be very successful although there is a top dog like WoW still running around since over two decades. Just listen to the market and take existing features to a next level.
Ashes wants to address different types of players. Casuals, frequent players/elitist. Also (quite a bit) for lonewolfs, but ofc for groups/guilds (a lonewolf can be a group player, but perhaps not every day). Ashes wants to combine sandbox (L2?...?) and themepark (WoW ofc, a lot of others). Why? Because it attracts a bigger player base and that's needed for all those systems running smoothly all together. You see what is happening with sandbox MMOs usually? The sandbox is quite empty only some month after release. I'm convinced Steve did a good decision to combine themepark and sandbox elements. And Ashes will do good if it addresses content to different player types, not only the "WoW-players" and not only the "L2-players", both is way too "stereotypical". There is "no need" for a huge themepark MMO? Sure, that's probably right. But do not underestimate the player base that wants to play themepark elements but only doesnt want to play them again in games that are 20 years existing/old. Because in this games the already reached everything or most of it, they know those games by heart, every stone, every dungeon, (quite) everything. So it's the donging and huge desire to find a new home base MMO, and if it takes a serious approach combining market needs it will be succesful and fun. If it will limit itself to a special player base and limit itself out of the market the 10k realms will be empty within the first year after the release.
and the other MMO is quite dead (obviously because of bad developer decisions, whatever - I'm conviced it's not only that, but nobody wants to discuss that).
Depends on your definition of game being dead.
The official servers for CIS region only have ~30,000+ concurrent players only, and that's one region and there are several other regions.
Not even mentioning that the majority of L2 players still play it on private servers. So the total number of people who still play L2, be it official or private servers, is a 6-digit number which is relatively decent.
Obviously, it's not what it used to be and I don't even mention mobile version of the game, but I wouldn't really call it dead. However, as I said, it depends on your definition of it.
However, it's this new guy thats a problem right now. He isn't understanding that he is walking in to a conversation that is years old, is trying to equate features L2 had to those that other games had, even if the function and purpose of them were wildly different, seems to have a boner for me for some reason, doesn't know how to use forums, can't read properly and is basically just being a menace.
Another generalized nonsense bs that has nothing to do with reality. I don't care about you whatsoever, it's your mostly meaningless comments that I'm replying to.
"Mommy, Flanker is bad, I can't outsmart him on the forum where I have 15000 pointless comments, so I need to make up random stuff. Please bring me a cup of a hot milk"
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nanfoodleMember, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
How did even get to this discussion? How is it relevant? A gentleman whose name I won't mention decided to switch topic to something that makes no sense again?
This is a way you can shut down a thread you don't like the feedback being given.
How did even get to this discussion? How is it relevant? A gentleman whose name I won't mention decided to switch topic to something that makes no sense again?
This is a way you can shut down a thread you don't like the feedback being given.
Nah, I don't change subjects, but I will reply to things I find interesting regardless of the topic of the thread.
Much like I am replying to you now. I haven't changed to subject, but as a reply to you, I am now talking about what I opt to post and what I don't.
> Talking about the game you know nothing about;
> Suggesting things that fit your personal preferences instead of them being good for overall game's longevity;
> Misrepresenting facts and intentional twisting of words;
> Making false statements based on thin air;
> Using manipulations;
> Using arguments with obvious logical fallacies;
> Jumping from one topic to another the moment when you get cornered?
> Etc.
Sure, you called me on them, but you didn't back that up with anything.
To me, this is the main reason WoW is still a thing and L2 really isn't.
Of course, that's the main reason.
Some of you may know Kodak. Or Nokia. Survival of the fittest. Evolution - you must adapt to your environment, to the market. If Ashes insists like a child not getting it's candy in the supermarket, it will fail (lying on the floor crying). Good parents just go ahead, because the cyring child will learn soon and run after the parents. Of course without getting candy. Hopefully Ashes is not that child, but listening to experience.
Ah yes, the old classic "accuse your opponent in something that you do while also denying that you do it yourself". Typical manipulation trick that any 5yo kid knows about. Ain't gonna work
In that entire exchange, the only actual information about L2 was from NiKr. All of my comments in it, if you actually took the time to read, were reactions to what NiKr said - yet you accused me of commenting on something I knew nothing about.
Alright, here comes the compilation of bs you wrote about the game you know nothing about:
So, the obvious, no nonsense conclusion here is that this kind of behavior happened in L2 because the developers did not provide it's players with enough valued content
False statement
Not sure if you need me to write this for you but, it is unreasonable to argue with noaani when it comes to Lineage 2, he did not play the game and is clueless about many specific information of the game and he tries to reason using whatever he assumes to be a fact about the game through said flawed reasoning."
As we can all see, the thing people are asking for didn't work in L2, so why ask for it in Ashes if we know it doesn't do the thing people are wanting it to do?
False generalization "as we all can see" - tf you talking about dude?
+ Intentional twisting of facts
Again, you have no idea if you were helping out, how much you were helping out, or if you were hurting the player in L2. If health information is shown, then you are better able to work this out. If class information was also readily shown in L2, it would have solved the issue you are talking about here.
Wrong assumption. You wouldn't make it if you knew what you were talking about, but you don't
Saying you use local chat in L2 when you are only using it because the game doesn't offer you a better options isn't a great argument for either L2 or local chat.If you were using local chat in a game that had global chat channels and custom channels, then I'd have some more questions.
This was one of your worst arguments so far, Noaani.
Called out for your nonsense again
I could also attach even more examples from another topic, but the list is long enough already. You're not gonna win any debate or prove your point in a discussion with arguments like this, kid. Yes, I'm calling you a kid because you act like one. You should be ashamed of such behavior as a normal adult human being but it's obvious that you aren't. Sad
"You didn't back that up with anything" - dude, if I actually spend time and compile all nonsense you wrote and all times when you got called out for that by me and other people across recent topics - it's gonna be a book longer than all 7 parts of Harry Potter combined. And again, you will start shrieking like a pig brought to a slaughter-house that I'm stalking you when everything is literally in public access.
Ludullu_(NiKr) feel free to correct me if you think the above isn't accurate.
Yes, that is correct. But it's also the case that Steven liked the same game, took quite a few mechanics from that game into Ashes and even kept them with, what some people consider, the same faults.
It's funny, this kind of chat spam only really happens in WoW. It wasn't an issue in EQ2, nor in Archeage.
The spam I'm talking about is "just a shitton of people talking all at once", not necessarily one person spamming random stuff or RMTers/traders pushing stuff.
See, I interact with the whole server, whether they are in front of me or not.
And this, as is the point about global trade messages, are a preference for in-game interactions. Which then relates to the overall design.
I already gave the example of inter-guild info interactions and how randoms could spoil that part of gameplay. And the same applies for trade. If trade messages can be broadcasted globally - that changes the market interactions and pricings, cause if the entire server knows that a thing is sold at a particular trader - that changes what kind of prices that trader can push for. If the trader can get someone to pay a way higher price for their thing - why would they sell their product for less to someone who's nearer to them?
@Azherae pls tell me if I'm wrong in that assumption. And just to make clear, I'm not saying that worldwide marketplace would magically TP items across the server. I'm saying that global chat would directly influence pricings, cause competition would be drastically different. Is that a wrong assumption?
I also see the absence of worldwide market as another indicator that this kind of interaction is unwanted. Sure, Steven may change his mind and implement it after enough people complain, but for now I feel like it's a point towards my argument against global chat.
And then this exact interaction also addresses the point of "just turn it off if you dislike it". While I like shooting myself in the foot by choosing the dumbest gameplay style and sticking to it (as evident by my Starfield play hours or by my AC6 gameplay videos) - I do feel like it's unfair to tell people "just give up the advantage if you dislike the form this advantage comes in".
If you want to stay on top of trading and/or inter-guild info - you have to parse global chat. And if global chat is available to all (as seems to be the notion here) - chat will be filled with random discussion by random people, cause, as you say yourself, "people are talking to the entire server", so each message in chat can be potentially interacting with any other message in that chat, which inevitably creates a mess of off-topic stuff, which I personally see as spam.
To me, this is the main reason WoW is still a thing and L2 really isn't.
Of course, that's the main reason.
It's not the main reason. The main reason is that the studio behind Lineage 2 decided to follow the path of "modern MMO" combined with a sh** ton of P2W and other garbage. Their vision and game itself change dramatically when Goddess of Destruction patch appeared and the majority of audience (including me and my friends who played it) immediately bounced or moved to private servers.
It had nothing to do with health bars, global chats or any other false assumptions in this thread.
One of the reasons of WoW's popularity is the fact that back then it was a solo-player-friendly game that wasn't really THAT hardcore, compared to others including Lineage 2.
If trade messages can be broadcasted globally - that changes the market interactions and pricings, cause if the entire server knows that a thing is sold at a particular trader - that changes what kind of prices that trader can push for. If the trader can get someone to pay a way higher price for their thing - why would they sell their product for less to someone who's nearer to them?
Well that's a scam-mentality, right?
My point of view here is quite clear: The seller wants to scam instead of adapting to the economical principles of supply and demand.
Here I step in for the majority of players that like fair and transparent pricing because that resepcts their time spent/invested into a computer game a lot. If an item is worth 1000 gold, it's worth 1000 gold because of supply and demand. If there are scammers around getting fun out of selling it for 5000 gold I don't care about them and I don't want "systems" that provide advantages to them, but disadvantages. So if a global chat is a disadvantage for them, I vote for it to 100%. And I feel no pity for them, really not.
Therefore global chat or trade chats help for transparency and fairness. And both aspects are good and meaningful in mature communities and healthy social, non-toxic MMOs. Nobody cares about a guy that just wants to scam other players by way to expensive items. That's his fault and issue, not for the others - no victim blaming should be allowed.
Usually the information is available (forums, discord, ...), but it's very uncomfortable that you need so gather the market price and information from outside the game (disrespectful regarding player time). Auctions houses and global communication in the game help that the economy and market runs smoothly ingame, without the need to invest more time outside the game just to find out the appropriate prices.
So, as usual, we are not in the same opinion here and that brings me back to: There must be a huge difference in mentality, attitude and behaviour why somebody likes L2 and things like this mentioned from you and why some (a lot) of players are arguing and understanding things like I do I'm stepping in on principle.
One of the reasons of WoW's popularity is the fact that back then it was a solo-player-friendly game that wasn't really THAT hardcore, compared to others including Lineage 2.
Evolution.
Beside that: WoW is hardcore if it wants to be hardcore (or needs to be hardcore), there is content in the game that only few perenctage of the entire world will ever see and play - both PvE- and PvP-wise. But WoW provides also a huge variety and diversity of other content for all player types, and this is why it is that successful still today - because, guess what, the majoritay of gamers are not elitists and unemployed frequent players, and that's why no serious MMO designs a game around that player base, but around the majority of the other player types which carry the game and ensure that several linked systems are running smoothly.
And that hp bars and chats are not the reason is fully clear for everybody I guess.
But it's also important to record: Just because there is one game without providing hp information does not mean that that's the needed or good solution, right? It can be done like this, it obviously mustn't be done like this, as (quite all) other MMOs show. Or is there even a second MMO where health bars are not shown?
And are there MMOs out there where you cannot toggle your chat-channels to you personal wish? I don't know one. This option can be implemented in an easy way and it provides the players choice - and thats what matters. Player choice.
You know the phrase: Exceptions prove the rule. L2 seems to be the (one time / one hit wonder) exception, several other MMOs are the rule.
Do you agree?
Ludullu_(NiKr) feel free to correct me if you think the above isn't accurate.
Yes, that is correct. But it's also the case that Steven liked the same game, took quite a few mechanics from that game into Ashes and even kept them with, what some people consider, the same faults.
Sure, there are a number of things they are keeping in Ashes from L2 - with that in mind, I'm sure you can recall me pointing out to people complaining about the corruption system that it's "probably" fine as we currently understand it.
I don't think I've ever said everything in L2 was bad, or that nothing from it is worth using in an MMORPG today. In much the same way I see good and bad in EQ2, I see good and bad in L2. However, it tends to be the bad from it that we talk about the most.
It's funny, this kind of chat spam only really happens in WoW. It wasn't an issue in EQ2, nor in Archeage.
The spam I'm talking about is "just a shitton of people talking all at once", not necessarily one person spamming random stuff or RMTers/traders pushing stuff.
Speaking of the good from EQ2 - the game all but eliminated RMT spam in it's chat. We would get maybe a message a year come through the filter they set up.
So, from my perspective, RMT spam is literally a matter of "how much do the developers care", and so isn't worth much discussion.
As to spam from multiple people, I generally find that the more engaged in the game the playerbase is, the less they sit there talking in chat. If it turns out that Ashes has a shitload of people talking all at once, perhaps Intrepid need to better entertain those people.
See, I interact with the whole server, whether they are in front of me or not.
And this, as is the point about global trade messages, are a preference for in-game interactions. Which then relates to the overall design.
I already gave the example of inter-guild info interactions and how randoms could spoil that part of gameplay. And the same applies for trade. If trade messages can be broadcasted globally - that changes the market interactions and pricings, cause if the entire server knows that a thing is sold at a particular trader - that changes what kind of prices that trader can push for. If the trader can get someone to pay a way higher price for their thing - why would they sell their product for less to someone who's nearer to them?
I'm not 100% sure I undertand your concern here.
Having a global chat isn't going to mean there is suddenly a global market. If anything, due to alts, forums, discord and such, that global market already exists.
Real funny that your mind went immediately towards scamming.
I was talking about "this item costs 1k to make. Selling it somewhere where it doesn't exist (and this is exactly the type of economic design Intrepid are going for) would garner a bigger price exactly due to supply/demand. So now, why would a person sell that item locally when they can upsell it to someone from across the server purely because they can easily connect with them through global chat".
None of that is "a scam". It's literally how supply/demand works, as I understand it. But it still directly influences local costs, cause nothing is local anymore.
Having a global chat isn't going to mean there is suddenly a global market. If anything, due to alts, forums, discord and such, that global market already exists.
I'd be really interested to know if there's been research on how many casual players go outside of the game to interact with the game's systems.
I'm sure the % is way bigger than it was in the ye olden times, but what is it roughly these days.
To me, anyone who goes to those lengths (and I know that for us, hardcore people, these are not "lengths", but still) - deserves to get the money they can get through it.
Today we know, from history, what happend with both games. One is releasing Addon after Addon (now with an entire new trilogy) + revivial of the "old" gameplay (WoW Classic) and the other MMO is quite dead (obviously because of bad developer decisions, whatever - I'm conviced it's not only that, but nobody wants to discuss that).
L2 has also released addons all throughout the last 20 years
It has also released "classic" servers of several types. Btw it came out 5 years before WoW's as well
And as I said before, WoW has lost insane amounts of people, also due to dev decisions. It's simply that WoW had more to begin with, cause it was way more casual than L2 back in 2004 and was also riding the hype of Blizz as a studio and WC3 as an incredible game from said studio, so the overall hype for it was way higher.
In other words, games are literally identical in their history (L2's classic servers also brought a ton of people back into the game and had a ton of hype behind it, just as WoW's did). Both games got ruined by p2w that came directly from the devs as well. Both games are crawling with bots that devs barely do anything about.
The only proper difference is that NCsoft were way more successful with their foray into mobile versions of the game, while Blizz haven't really tried adapting WoW to phones, which imo is a surprisingly non-greedy decision, cause they coulda made insane money in it.
I'd be really interested to know if there's been research on how many casual players go outside of the game to interact with the game's systems.
I'm sure the % is way bigger than it was in the ye olden times, but what is it roughly these days.
I don't personally know of any, and have not looked in to this myself. It does seem more common for people to look out of game for walkthroughs and such, so I would have to assume that translates in to other areas as long as there is no real friction (from an internet access perspective) in doing so.
What I do know though, in a game like Ashes, casual players aren't going to be the driving factor of the economy. While it is absolutely true that in some games they are, that is really not something that happens in games with an economy like Intrepid seem to want for Ashes (looking at the Archeage and EVE economies here - casual players as a collective were near insignificant in regards to the economy).
The other thing to keep in mind in regards to Ashes economy is location.
A big pile of iron ore will be worth less in a node without a smelter than it would be in a node with one. That is likely to have more of an impact on the price of raw and processed materials than any kind of chat channel would.
Yeah, if you haven't quoted properly, you haven't done anything.
You may as well have just typed in what ever you wanted to accuse me of saying - because you removed the ability for me - or anyone else - to check. You go on about "public access" as if that means anything - but even if it did, without quoting properly, you've removed reasonable access for others to check for themselves.
Again, quoting properly is paramount if you want to bitch about what someone on a forum is saying.
Yeah, if you haven't quoted properly, you haven't done anything.
Ooooouf I can smell someone's desperation. Well, I quoted some of them the way you wanted it to be afterwards, so what did it change? Right, absolutely nothing, because you keep whining about stuff that nobody apart from you cares about in desperate attempts to shift the topic of conversation. I don't know how many more people, apart from all those who called you out for being a clown so far, need to do that again, so that finally something clicks in your cockroach-sized brain and you realize that it is a shame to behave that way.
How did even get to this discussion? How is it relevant? A gentleman whose name I won't mention decided to switch topic to something that makes no sense again?
This is a way you can shut down a thread you don't like the feedback being given.
Other than the post you labled as "1" that I originally pointed out as being the only one that was correct - no you didn't.
You haven't edited the post in question, so nothing there has changed. When you quoted that post higher up on this page, you didn't alter the quotes of any of them.
L2 was specifically designed in a way where players will fight over base tier farming spots - the kinds of locations a solo player or a small group of three or four would farm for hours on end.
So, the obvious, no nonsense conclusion here is that this kind of behavior happened in L2 because the developers did not provide it's players with enough valued content
As we can all see, the thing people are asking for didn't work in L2, so why ask for it in Ashes if we know it doesn't do the thing people are wanting it to do?
I suppose that's enough. Out of all people on this forum, you are the only one whining about it. Mr Not-So-Prominent representative of aggressive local fauna. If you are doing this, it's basically a sign that you got literally 0 better arguments.
Those are your words and that's the bs you wrote yourself. That's the bs multiple people called you out for.
It still shocks me how after 15,000 messages you haven't learned anything. I mean, if we assume that writing a comment takes roughly 1 minute, then you spent 15000 minutes on this, which is roughly ~250 hours. I mean, you could reach B1 level in a foreign language in 250 hours, but you still can barely put two words together when it comes to the actual discussion.
L2 was specifically designed in a way where players will fight over base tier farming spots - the kinds of locations a solo player or a small group of three or four would farm for hours on end.
So, the obvious, no nonsense conclusion here is that this kind of behavior happened in L2 because the developers did not provide it's players with enough valued content
As we can all see, the thing people are asking for didn't work in L2, so why ask for it in Ashes if we know it doesn't do the thing people are wanting it to do?
I suppose that's enough. Out of all people on this forum, you are the only one whining about it. Mr Not-So-Prominent representative of aggressive local fauna. If you are doing this, it's basically a sign that you got literally 0 better arguments.
Those are your words and that's the bs you wrote yourself. That's the bs multiple people called you out for.
It still shocks me how after 15,000 messages you haven't learned anything. I mean, if we assume that writing a comment takes roughly 1 minute, then you spent 15000 minutes on this, which is roughly ~250 hours. I mean, you could reach B1 level in a foreign language in 250 hours, but you still can barely put two words together when it comes to the actual discussion.
Cool.
Points 2 and 3, after discussion with NiKr over a number of years, him and I more or less agree that this is how L2 was designed in relation to contemporary games (specifically WoW and EQ2 - games released within a 12 month period or so).
Fact is (coming from NiKr) L2 had significantly less content (in terms of mobs that were not considered base population) than other games. It also added far less content than other games. NiKr and I a few years ago did a comparison of the number of non base population mobs added to each game over a period of time, EQ2 vs L2 - EQ2 added more than 10 times as many as L2 added (it was about 18 times, from memory).
The thing is, that is the point of the game. EQ2 is about mobs and quests. L2 is about PvP. If L2 added content in the same way that EQ2 did, people would have no need to PvP - which would have been bad game design for L2.
Point 5 and 6 is information directly from you and NiKr. You have both said that L2 had an amount of the activity in question (people holding other players at a low HP to prevent them from farming, but not killing the player). You and NiKr also said the game did not show health information of rival players.
Thus, I am basicalyl just reiterating your own comments. L2 didn't show health information (according to you), and L2 did have the kind of activity people were asking to not show health information to prevent (according to you). So, that method is clearly not going to prevent that activity.
Again, I am not saying anything about L2 that you haven't said here.
If I am wrong with the above, which part am I wrong with? Did L2 show rival player information, or did it not have any of the behavior we were talking about? Since they are the only two things I am saying, if you are saying that I am wrong, then one of those two things must be incorrect.
Points 2 and 3, after discussion with NiKr over a number of years, him and I more or less agree that this is how L2 was designed in relation to contemporary games (specifically WoW and EQ2 - games released within a 12 month period or so).
You can't know it for a fact and you don't have anything to support your assumption. Why you don't and can't have it? Because it doesn't exist.
It happened that way not because it was planned to be like that, it's a natural outcome of the fact that players identified the best farming spots and fought for them, as a result. I would have no problem with what you wrote if it was a question or assumption, but not a statement.
Fact is (coming from NiKr) L2 had significantly less content (in terms of mobs that were not considered base population) than other games. It also added far less content than other games. NiKr and I a few years ago did a comparison of the number of non base population mobs added to each game over a period of time, EQ2 vs L2 - EQ2 added more than 10 times as many as L2 added (it was about 18 times, from memory).
Somewhat true to a degree, but it's not just about the quantity of mobs - it's about players wanting to farm in the best farming spots, instead of ordinary spots. Even on high levels there were plenty of locations that were not occupied, because everyone wanted to farm in the best spots.
Don't know anything about EQ2, so I can't really tell anything about it
The thing is, that is the point of the game. EQ2 is about mobs and quests. L2 is about PvP. If L2 added content in the same way that EQ2 did, people would have no need to PvP - which would have been bad game design for L2.
"L2 is about PvP" - this is also wrong. While there is plenty of PvP, it is still 10% of playtime at best, depending on the server rates. L2 is about grinding mobs and PvP - that would be accurate. If we take official servers with x1 rates, there was even less PvP due to the fact the people were afraid to get death penalty. 4% of XP on mid-level could mean 1 hour of grinding. 1% XP on high levels could mean hours of grinding.
Point 5 and 6 is information directly from you and NiKr. You have both said that L2 had an amount of the activity in question (people holding other players at a low HP to prevent them from farming, but not killing the player). You and NiKr also said the game did not show health information of rival players.
Thus, I am basicalyl just reiterating your own comments. L2 didn't show health information (according to you), and L2 did have the kind of activity people were asking to not show health information to prevent (according to you). So, that method is clearly not going to prevent that activity.
Correct, but the conclusion is wrong.
1. The goal is not to prevent such cases, the goal is to reduce their frequency by making it "not easy" and by keeping the proper risks for the attacker.
2. The fact that it happened in L2 without HP bars is an indicator that this is actually an issue. Why? Because if L2 had those health bars, it would happen literally everywhere. I've seen that once on a custom private server with GoD chronicles, it wasn't fun to watch how mages abused DoT skills while harassing players (those effects reduced player's HP to 1, but didn't kill them).
Again, I am not saying anything about L2 that you haven't said here.
You did though. In a thread with leveling discussion it happened several times, for example, you claiming that private servers and their statistics are irrelevant etc. You even admitted that later that you took that information into account after several other people told you that you were wrong about that.
If I am wrong with the above, which part am I wrong with? Did L2 show rival player information, or did it not have any of the behavior we were talking about? Since they are the only two things I am saying, if you are saying that I am wrong, then one of those two things must be incorrect.
Explained above. While you are "reiterating" my and Nikr's comments, you lose context and made wrong assumptions based on them. Simple as that.
It happened that way not because it was planned to be like that, it's a natural outcome of the fact that players identified the best farming spots and fought for them, as a result. I would have no problem with what you wrote if it was a question or assumption, but not a statement.[/b]
Oh, so you're saying the L2 developers didn't even know how to develop their game?
Because either they knew what they were doing and so put those spots in to the game on purpose, or they didn't know what they were doing and didn't mean for those spots to be in the game. If you want to work on the assumption that the developers didn't know what they were doing, then that can very well be your opinion. However, I (and I believe NiKr) are of the opinion that they did know what they were doing.
1. The goal is not to prevent such cases, the goal is to reduce their frequency by making it "not easy" and by keeping the proper risks for the attacker.
If the goal is to reduce it, why not eliminate it?
Since there are ways to eliminate it (that we do not need to discuss here, but we know they exist due to this behavior not existing in other games), why not take one of those options instead?
Why take a measure we know won't eliminate a negative behavior, when instead we can take a measure that will?
Comments
It didn't have the functionality we are talking about, even if it had something vaugely similar.
No.
I said that if they were visable (as per the games current design), then it will be easier to assess if someone you pass by needs assistance or not, and NiKr then commented that people can just ask for help in local chat.
You've got some real issues dude, you just want to blame me for everything. Get help.
I understand.
But well, it's not a game only for them (we already explained that to them). You know it, I know it. Just read other sites and forums in the internet. That's a speciality of THIS forum - for the moment.
Chats can be enabled, or disabled. If someone likes a global chat, for whatever reason, use it. If not, disable it.
It's trivial, it's a 20 years old feature. Choice is always better than limitation.
That's normal, Flanker. Just disable the chat if you don't need it at this particual moment. Enable it, if you need it (global trade, selling, whatsoever...). That's really normal in MMOs, it's fine, nothing to worry about, really.
You know, I've played several MMOs (but not L2), but it's no serious issue, as long (!) as there is a possibility to enable/disable every single chat provided from the game/developers. Easy going.
There will be a region/local chat in Ashes, right? So a chat that will hold meaningful (depending on the community...) information about "what's just right now going on", right? So, if this is the case and a player, a group, a guild wants to focus on that - disbale global chat.
If you are idling in your city and you are looking for global information (or you want to spread global information or discussion), use that chat. There will be limited options for connected auction houses, so I'm convinced that (global) trading will shift to the global chat, or a trade chat (if available, hopefully).
Chat for...
- Whispers
- Group (8 man)
- Raids (40 man)
- Guilds
- Allicances?
- Global
- Local/region
- Trade
- Mentoring..?
- ...?
No?
Yeah, that's why I keep pointing out the L2 specific things that haven't been the case for decades.
NiKr generally understands these points. He seems to get that L2 was a specific game that was in part a product of it's time in terms of technology, and in part a product of the industry still figuring out how an MMORPG should be. He liked the game a lot and so has something of rose tinted glasses when looking at it (understandable), but he gets it.
@Ludullu_(NiKr) feel free to correct me if you think the above isn't accurate.
However, it's this new guy thats a problem right now. He isn't understanding that he is walking in to a conversation that is years old, is trying to equate features L2 had to those that other games had, even if the function and purpose of them were wildly different, seems to have a boner for me for some reason, doesn't know how to use forums, can't read properly and is basically just being a menace.
> Talking about the game you know nothing about;
> Suggesting things that fit your personal preferences instead of them being good for overall game's longevity;
> Misrepresenting facts and intentional twisting of words;
> Making false statements based on thin air;
> Using manipulations;
> Using arguments with obvious logical fallacies;
> Jumping from one topic to another the moment when you get cornered?
> Etc.
... is the reason why I need help now? xD Grow some fur on those tiny things in your pants and act like a grown-up man.
Exactly. If it's toggleable - I don't care. Meanwhile, it's also important to acknowledge that it can be used by spammers and gold traders which would require many moderators across all the servers. This ends up being a decent workload for Intrepid and extra expenses. If they are willing to do that and capable of tacking those potential issues - by all means, go for it. But I'm skeptical about it, at least for now.
So, you can assume, that there where like two fully different mentalities and attitudes of player types starting those two different MMOs. Today we know, from history, what happend with both games. One is releasing Addon after Addon (now with an entire new trilogy) + revivial of the "old" gameplay (WoW Classic) and the other MMO is quite dead (obviously because of bad developer decisions, whatever - I'm conviced it's not only that, but nobody wants to discuss that).
WoW (or GW2, or ESO, or ...) players and L2 (or AA?, or ...?) players will only find few similarities for some mechanics and features.
I've really played a lot of MMOs. And I know a lot of people from my country/region (EU), some US, that play "this" kind of MMOs. I don't know ONE player that played Lineage2. So, it's seems to be, I really don't know, a topic about culture (??? - no offense meant! Just thinking loud) mentality, attitude and behaviour why somebody plays WoW-like games or somebody playes L2-like games. In both you have pvp (played for years on permanent pvp-servers, so do not tell my something about 100% pvp uptime at every second of playing) and hundrets of features. WoW did a huge evolution during the years, still beating most of all the other MMOs in between, as the create or copy with excellence and highest production quality. WoW is different to 2004. Yes, it is. Not WoW classic, but retail. That's the success story. Players changed, so the game changed accordingly. Once you adept a bit (GW2, ESO) you can be very successful although there is a top dog like WoW still running around since over two decades. Just listen to the market and take existing features to a next level.
Ashes wants to address different types of players. Casuals, frequent players/elitist. Also (quite a bit) for lonewolfs, but ofc for groups/guilds (a lonewolf can be a group player, but perhaps not every day). Ashes wants to combine sandbox (L2?...?) and themepark (WoW ofc, a lot of others). Why? Because it attracts a bigger player base and that's needed for all those systems running smoothly all together. You see what is happening with sandbox MMOs usually? The sandbox is quite empty only some month after release. I'm convinced Steve did a good decision to combine themepark and sandbox elements. And Ashes will do good if it addresses content to different player types, not only the "WoW-players" and not only the "L2-players", both is way too "stereotypical". There is "no need" for a huge themepark MMO? Sure, that's probably right. But do not underestimate the player base that wants to play themepark elements but only doesnt want to play them again in games that are 20 years existing/old. Because in this games the already reached everything or most of it, they know those games by heart, every stone, every dungeon, (quite) everything. So it's the donging and huge desire to find a new home base MMO, and if it takes a serious approach combining market needs it will be succesful and fun. If it will limit itself to a special player base and limit itself out of the market the 10k realms will be empty within the first year after the release.
The official servers for CIS region only have ~30,000+ concurrent players only, and that's one region and there are several other regions.
Not even mentioning that the majority of L2 players still play it on private servers. So the total number of people who still play L2, be it official or private servers, is a 6-digit number which is relatively decent.
Obviously, it's not what it used to be and I don't even mention mobile version of the game, but I wouldn't really call it dead. However, as I said, it depends on your definition of it.
Cry about it, what else can I say.
This is a way you can shut down a thread you don't like the feedback being given.
Nah, I don't change subjects, but I will reply to things I find interesting regardless of the topic of the thread.
Much like I am replying to you now. I haven't changed to subject, but as a reply to you, I am now talking about what I opt to post and what I don't.
Some of you may know Kodak. Or Nokia. Survival of the fittest. Evolution - you must adapt to your environment, to the market. If Ashes insists like a child not getting it's candy in the supermarket, it will fail (lying on the floor crying). Good parents just go ahead, because the cyring child will learn soon and run after the parents. Of course without getting candy. Hopefully Ashes is not that child, but listening to experience.
"You didn't back that up with anything" - dude, if I actually spend time and compile all nonsense you wrote and all times when you got called out for that by me and other people across recent topics - it's gonna be a book longer than all 7 parts of Harry Potter combined. And again, you will start shrieking like a pig brought to a slaughter-house that I'm stalking you when everything is literally in public access.
The spam I'm talking about is "just a shitton of people talking all at once", not necessarily one person spamming random stuff or RMTers/traders pushing stuff.
And this, as is the point about global trade messages, are a preference for in-game interactions. Which then relates to the overall design.
I already gave the example of inter-guild info interactions and how randoms could spoil that part of gameplay. And the same applies for trade. If trade messages can be broadcasted globally - that changes the market interactions and pricings, cause if the entire server knows that a thing is sold at a particular trader - that changes what kind of prices that trader can push for. If the trader can get someone to pay a way higher price for their thing - why would they sell their product for less to someone who's nearer to them?
@Azherae pls tell me if I'm wrong in that assumption. And just to make clear, I'm not saying that worldwide marketplace would magically TP items across the server. I'm saying that global chat would directly influence pricings, cause competition would be drastically different. Is that a wrong assumption?
I also see the absence of worldwide market as another indicator that this kind of interaction is unwanted. Sure, Steven may change his mind and implement it after enough people complain, but for now I feel like it's a point towards my argument against global chat.
And then this exact interaction also addresses the point of "just turn it off if you dislike it". While I like shooting myself in the foot by choosing the dumbest gameplay style and sticking to it (as evident by my Starfield play hours or by my AC6 gameplay videos) - I do feel like it's unfair to tell people "just give up the advantage if you dislike the form this advantage comes in".
If you want to stay on top of trading and/or inter-guild info - you have to parse global chat. And if global chat is available to all (as seems to be the notion here) - chat will be filled with random discussion by random people, cause, as you say yourself, "people are talking to the entire server", so each message in chat can be potentially interacting with any other message in that chat, which inevitably creates a mess of off-topic stuff, which I personally see as spam.
It had nothing to do with health bars, global chats or any other false assumptions in this thread.
One of the reasons of WoW's popularity is the fact that back then it was a solo-player-friendly game that wasn't really THAT hardcore, compared to others including Lineage 2.
My point of view here is quite clear: The seller wants to scam instead of adapting to the economical principles of supply and demand.
Here I step in for the majority of players that like fair and transparent pricing because that resepcts their time spent/invested into a computer game a lot. If an item is worth 1000 gold, it's worth 1000 gold because of supply and demand. If there are scammers around getting fun out of selling it for 5000 gold I don't care about them and I don't want "systems" that provide advantages to them, but disadvantages. So if a global chat is a disadvantage for them, I vote for it to 100%. And I feel no pity for them, really not.
Therefore global chat or trade chats help for transparency and fairness. And both aspects are good and meaningful in mature communities and healthy social, non-toxic MMOs. Nobody cares about a guy that just wants to scam other players by way to expensive items. That's his fault and issue, not for the others - no victim blaming should be allowed.
Usually the information is available (forums, discord, ...), but it's very uncomfortable that you need so gather the market price and information from outside the game (disrespectful regarding player time). Auctions houses and global communication in the game help that the economy and market runs smoothly ingame, without the need to invest more time outside the game just to find out the appropriate prices.
So, as usual, we are not in the same opinion here and that brings me back to: There must be a huge difference in mentality, attitude and behaviour why somebody likes L2 and things like this mentioned from you and why some (a lot) of players are arguing and understanding things like I do I'm stepping in on principle.
Beside that: WoW is hardcore if it wants to be hardcore (or needs to be hardcore), there is content in the game that only few perenctage of the entire world will ever see and play - both PvE- and PvP-wise. But WoW provides also a huge variety and diversity of other content for all player types, and this is why it is that successful still today - because, guess what, the majoritay of gamers are not elitists and unemployed frequent players, and that's why no serious MMO designs a game around that player base, but around the majority of the other player types which carry the game and ensure that several linked systems are running smoothly.
And that hp bars and chats are not the reason is fully clear for everybody I guess.
But it's also important to record: Just because there is one game without providing hp information does not mean that that's the needed or good solution, right? It can be done like this, it obviously mustn't be done like this, as (quite all) other MMOs show. Or is there even a second MMO where health bars are not shown?
And are there MMOs out there where you cannot toggle your chat-channels to you personal wish? I don't know one. This option can be implemented in an easy way and it provides the players choice - and thats what matters. Player choice.
You know the phrase: Exceptions prove the rule. L2 seems to be the (one time / one hit wonder) exception, several other MMOs are the rule.
Do you agree?
I don't think I've ever said everything in L2 was bad, or that nothing from it is worth using in an MMORPG today. In much the same way I see good and bad in EQ2, I see good and bad in L2. However, it tends to be the bad from it that we talk about the most. Speaking of the good from EQ2 - the game all but eliminated RMT spam in it's chat. We would get maybe a message a year come through the filter they set up.
So, from my perspective, RMT spam is literally a matter of "how much do the developers care", and so isn't worth much discussion.
As to spam from multiple people, I generally find that the more engaged in the game the playerbase is, the less they sit there talking in chat. If it turns out that Ashes has a shitload of people talking all at once, perhaps Intrepid need to better entertain those people.
I'm not 100% sure I undertand your concern here.
Having a global chat isn't going to mean there is suddenly a global market. If anything, due to alts, forums, discord and such, that global market already exists.
I was talking about "this item costs 1k to make. Selling it somewhere where it doesn't exist (and this is exactly the type of economic design Intrepid are going for) would garner a bigger price exactly due to supply/demand. So now, why would a person sell that item locally when they can upsell it to someone from across the server purely because they can easily connect with them through global chat".
None of that is "a scam". It's literally how supply/demand works, as I understand it. But it still directly influences local costs, cause nothing is local anymore.
I'd be really interested to know if there's been research on how many casual players go outside of the game to interact with the game's systems.
I'm sure the % is way bigger than it was in the ye olden times, but what is it roughly these days.
To me, anyone who goes to those lengths (and I know that for us, hardcore people, these are not "lengths", but still) - deserves to get the money they can get through it.
P.S. forgot to mention this L2 has also released addons all throughout the last 20 years
It has also released "classic" servers of several types. Btw it came out 5 years before WoW's as well
And as I said before, WoW has lost insane amounts of people, also due to dev decisions. It's simply that WoW had more to begin with, cause it was way more casual than L2 back in 2004 and was also riding the hype of Blizz as a studio and WC3 as an incredible game from said studio, so the overall hype for it was way higher.
In other words, games are literally identical in their history (L2's classic servers also brought a ton of people back into the game and had a ton of hype behind it, just as WoW's did). Both games got ruined by p2w that came directly from the devs as well. Both games are crawling with bots that devs barely do anything about.
The only proper difference is that NCsoft were way more successful with their foray into mobile versions of the game, while Blizz haven't really tried adapting WoW to phones, which imo is a surprisingly non-greedy decision, cause they coulda made insane money in it.
I don't personally know of any, and have not looked in to this myself. It does seem more common for people to look out of game for walkthroughs and such, so I would have to assume that translates in to other areas as long as there is no real friction (from an internet access perspective) in doing so.
What I do know though, in a game like Ashes, casual players aren't going to be the driving factor of the economy. While it is absolutely true that in some games they are, that is really not something that happens in games with an economy like Intrepid seem to want for Ashes (looking at the Archeage and EVE economies here - casual players as a collective were near insignificant in regards to the economy).
The other thing to keep in mind in regards to Ashes economy is location.
A big pile of iron ore will be worth less in a node without a smelter than it would be in a node with one. That is likely to have more of an impact on the price of raw and processed materials than any kind of chat channel would.
@Chaliux meaning no offence to you, just kidding
You may as well have just typed in what ever you wanted to accuse me of saying - because you removed the ability for me - or anyone else - to check. You go on about "public access" as if that means anything - but even if it did, without quoting properly, you've removed reasonable access for others to check for themselves.
Again, quoting properly is paramount if you want to bitch about what someone on a forum is saying.
That basically summarizes it all
Other than the post you labled as "1" that I originally pointed out as being the only one that was correct - no you didn't.
You haven't edited the post in question, so nothing there has changed. When you quoted that post higher up on this page, you didn't alter the quotes of any of them.
So no, you really didn't do this.
Here is where I quoted them properly, Mr Delusional Forum Badge Achiever
Cool.
Points 2 and 3, after discussion with NiKr over a number of years, him and I more or less agree that this is how L2 was designed in relation to contemporary games (specifically WoW and EQ2 - games released within a 12 month period or so).
Fact is (coming from NiKr) L2 had significantly less content (in terms of mobs that were not considered base population) than other games. It also added far less content than other games. NiKr and I a few years ago did a comparison of the number of non base population mobs added to each game over a period of time, EQ2 vs L2 - EQ2 added more than 10 times as many as L2 added (it was about 18 times, from memory).
The thing is, that is the point of the game. EQ2 is about mobs and quests. L2 is about PvP. If L2 added content in the same way that EQ2 did, people would have no need to PvP - which would have been bad game design for L2.
Point 5 and 6 is information directly from you and NiKr. You have both said that L2 had an amount of the activity in question (people holding other players at a low HP to prevent them from farming, but not killing the player). You and NiKr also said the game did not show health information of rival players.
Thus, I am basicalyl just reiterating your own comments. L2 didn't show health information (according to you), and L2 did have the kind of activity people were asking to not show health information to prevent (according to you). So, that method is clearly not going to prevent that activity.
Again, I am not saying anything about L2 that you haven't said here.
If I am wrong with the above, which part am I wrong with? Did L2 show rival player information, or did it not have any of the behavior we were talking about? Since they are the only two things I am saying, if you are saying that I am wrong, then one of those two things must be incorrect.
It happened that way not because it was planned to be like that, it's a natural outcome of the fact that players identified the best farming spots and fought for them, as a result. I would have no problem with what you wrote if it was a question or assumption, but not a statement.
Somewhat true to a degree, but it's not just about the quantity of mobs - it's about players wanting to farm in the best farming spots, instead of ordinary spots. Even on high levels there were plenty of locations that were not occupied, because everyone wanted to farm in the best spots.
Don't know anything about EQ2, so I can't really tell anything about it
"L2 is about PvP" - this is also wrong. While there is plenty of PvP, it is still 10% of playtime at best, depending on the server rates. L2 is about grinding mobs and PvP - that would be accurate. If we take official servers with x1 rates, there was even less PvP due to the fact the people were afraid to get death penalty. 4% of XP on mid-level could mean 1 hour of grinding. 1% XP on high levels could mean hours of grinding.
Correct, but the conclusion is wrong.
1. The goal is not to prevent such cases, the goal is to reduce their frequency by making it "not easy" and by keeping the proper risks for the attacker.
2. The fact that it happened in L2 without HP bars is an indicator that this is actually an issue. Why? Because if L2 had those health bars, it would happen literally everywhere. I've seen that once on a custom private server with GoD chronicles, it wasn't fun to watch how mages abused DoT skills while harassing players (those effects reduced player's HP to 1, but didn't kill them).
You did though. In a thread with leveling discussion it happened several times, for example, you claiming that private servers and their statistics are irrelevant etc. You even admitted that later that you took that information into account after several other people told you that you were wrong about that.
Explained above. While you are "reiterating" my and Nikr's comments, you lose context and made wrong assumptions based on them. Simple as that.
Because either they knew what they were doing and so put those spots in to the game on purpose, or they didn't know what they were doing and didn't mean for those spots to be in the game. If you want to work on the assumption that the developers didn't know what they were doing, then that can very well be your opinion. However, I (and I believe NiKr) are of the opinion that they did know what they were doing.
If the goal is to reduce it, why not eliminate it?
Since there are ways to eliminate it (that we do not need to discuss here, but we know they exist due to this behavior not existing in other games), why not take one of those options instead?
Why take a measure we know won't eliminate a negative behavior, when instead we can take a measure that will?