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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Normally CC is a good thing in concept, but hard to balance without it feeling unnecessary. In all the MMO's I Played, the more action based Combat needed more Active/reactive CC. Active Buttons to counter CC and apply it always felt rewarding when done right
2. How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Everyone should have a skill to be able to break it themselves. Not being able to Play the game/ being stun locked till you die unable to do anything is not fun. I feel like it should be skill based though, like a way to shorten it based on control inputs, or allow some ability to break stun at the same time as doing something else beneficial (Basically like Guild wars 2.)
3. What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Why not Both? A Shield also can be used as weapon in real life, and a sword has a pommel. maybe the CC/Cc Breaks can be part of a Damaging ability as a bonus thing. Either that or a Toggle for attacks to do stagger/stun instead of damage.
If your having one then proper counterplay dictates the other exist. But I don't like CC to take precidence over damage. The shorter the time to kill the more tame CC needs to be, being CC'ed should not be a death sentence unless the oposing team has done several ADDITIONAL things right.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I would say that all archeypes having them is OK, but not all CLASSES should, some deficiencies and specialization should exist between classes. Some classes should have self-breaks, others group wide breaks, some single ally breaks etc. Universal self-breaking is an overly flat and samey design.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Generally I fell the amount of CC that is in the character and it's class needs to be consistent within that class even if it is diverse between class types. So a Dreadnaught for example consistently has high CC, while a BladeDancer is consistently low. If CC varries wildly depending on skill allocation then it makes the game too random as CC can just come out of any oposing character or class and combat becomes too much of a dice role of 'hope my skill point allocations counter theirs'. It also will allow excessivly high CC parties which do not have to give up much damage output for maxing out on CC.
To get a high CC party composition you should need to bring specific classes, which have clear exploitable weakness and which the oponent can identify and exploint while positioning themselves to avoid the CC. Counterplay to CC is 90% before the CC lands and 10% is after, so warning is essential to counterplay. The amount of CC breaking is more flexible as now the players is gambling on what type of defense to take. An option for CC break in every class is OK, but not self-breaking, it should be different types.
For PvX, each archetype needs a limited type of CCs they can apply and break. No archetype should have 1 ability that breaks every type of CC (e.g., Fear/terror should be broken by Berserk, so fear would not be effective on Fighters, etc).
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Some form for every class, yes. No archetype should have a 1-button break-all.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I will take a CC early in leveling if it will help me kill more efficiently by reducing down time. I usually won't pick up a CC break until a bit later since early game mobs in most RPGs rarely do a lot of CC. Everyone wants to do big damage, if we just hit a new tier of skills or something, we're takin damage. CCs are usually the last point or 2 before you hit that next tier.
This is such an insane question I had to log in to answer. In sum, everyone should have some way of breaking out of CC. Combat would be miserable and game-breaking without it.
CC is an important tool but it must be balanced correctly. It's totally fine and expected for some classes to have more CC than others and to excel at it, such as Mages and Tanks, while others only have 1 or 2 CC's like Cleric or Fighter.
I want to say though that I prefer how games like Aion and TERA handled CC breaks instead of other games like WoW that have one universal skill. Aion made it interesting and basically differentiated between types of CC. I know you guys have mentioned hard vs soft CC before but Aion did this differently. They had essentially mental vs physical CC.
So mental CC would be things like silence, bind, slow, fear, sleep that arguably have a more magical component, whereas physical CC is things like stun, knockback, knockdown, etc. A healer could cleanse other players out of mental CC's (not themselves though) or players could also use a potion made by Alchemists to cleanse mental CC. Then everyone has a Retaliate type CC skill to break out of physical CC. The Retaliate skill should just be a default skill for all archetypes, that happens reactively, popping up on screen when a player is hit by a relevant physical CC, and then they hit Spacebar or Q or whatever the game designates to use it while it's on screen. It not only takes them out of the CC but gives them a few seconds of immunity to it.
I think it keeps things interesting while also keeping healers and alchemists relevant (and makes sense that a healer could cleanse these things), while also retaining a level of strategy, preparedness, and self-reliance. It also brings arguably more skill to the equation because you're not just relying on one player to get themselves out of CC, but you need to take into account if they have a healer and it allows a good healer to make a big difference for their team beyond just healing.
I love both! From a PVP and PVE aspect, CC is helpful (or harmful!). Being stunlocked by another player infinitely feels bad and I hope isn't possible. I would like to see some diminishing return on CC against a single person so that they can have a chance to respond to an attack. That may be a counter, heal, attack, or CC back at them. In a PVE aspect, it's nice to CC in large packs. A mix or close and ranged CCs would be good across the classes.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I think it's OK if everyone has a CC and a counter. Perhaps some classes have more, as that fits their archetype better. While every class shouldn't feel the same because they have the same abilities, they can maybe do it differently. More, less, close combat CC, ranged CC (so can do it out of combat), etc. The goal should be to make the classes feel unique but not have someone excluded from content due to lack of a particular spell.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I think each class/spec should have something available and possibly additional CC/Breaks they can take at the sacrificed of something (dps, health, regen, etc..)
Choosing between CC and damage is not really fun. As a dps class, your focus is on damage, but not having CC when you need it can also be bad, and t hus not fun.
CC vs mobs is great and adds a layer of strategy without making a player feel bad by having no control.
If CC exists, every class should have a way to break it, because (repeating myself) being stuck in a crowd-controlled state is absolutely not fun. The break should also apply a very short immunity.
So the way I see it, it’s likely going to be 1 of 3 options.
1. Every class having some kind of limited-time universal immunity skill that you have to activate prior to getting ccd, with a decent sized cd (easiest to balance).
2. While performing certain skills you’re immune to all cc after skill has been cast, not during casting (maybe some mage spec options can help though?), after casting and during animation (2nd easiest to balance).
3. You build up a cc meter that makes cc less effective over time, or a meter that once filled, give you cc immunity for a short time (hardest to balance). Not only is this meter going to be nearly impossible to get right, for example, which impacts the meter more, a stun or a sleep, or etc…, How long does the cc immunity afterwards last? If it’s not long enough it’s useless, if it’s too long it’s broken. Getting that right through the eyes of thousands of people… that meter will NEVER be universally seen as “balanced”, it’s also so easy to exploit.
My opinion, have the ccs but give everyone a universal limited time cc immunity ability that they need to preemptively procc. Casting the ability should have a small window where the opponent can interrupt your cast with any cc, but dmg itself wouldn’t interrupt it. Give every class some sort of ranged cc, even if it’s small, so that they can interrupt the opponent casting (perhaps this could be applied into existing skills with augmentation, or not). That ability should have like a 5 min cooldown (but hopefully things like arena dueling, like in archeage, would reset cds so you won’t need to wait for cds before the next duel).
Its vital for PVE mechanics to have CC and CC breaks. PVP it gets tricky . I think there should be a reward for triggering a CC break prior to it landing. If you can read an opponent and anticipate a CC move then CC break is the reward. Triggering a CC break after CC lands I think should have diminishing returns.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
It makes sense, I think the difference between classes should focus on the effectiveness of the cc break. Every class gets some style of cc break but certain classes are more effective at it then others.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I think there is room to develop a tiered cc break that augments damage. Similar to absorb elements in D&D you can break a CC and use that energy to channel it into attacks. There is an opportunity to make proactive CC break give a damage boost reward when you time it right.
There should several ways to break out of or otherwise deal with soft CC, for example reducing its impact ("slow is 50% less effective"), duration ("slow duration reduced by 50%"), or even converted into a positive thing ("convert slow into speed").
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Probably contrarian but prefer more CC in games than others and definitely prefer diminishing returns on them unless its PVE source CC. Yet even some mobs cc should DR if they repeatedly stun a the tank for example. Some level of CC breaks are needed so that way you don't feel like you were cheated out your life because you had no way to get away from a groups CC chain or archetype that has tons of cc and spams you with it.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
UNIQUINESS IS KEY HERE the up and close fighter/warrior/etc. I feel like should always get at least 1 ability that breaks them from certain CC's (stuns, Stun and fear, fear and charm, or all 3), just not every type of CC that should be reserved for trinkets or a buff that prevents 1 or 2 cc's for example. I think only the cleric and bard should provide GROUP CC breaks
clerics should give wards and possibly that has to be spec'ed uniquely as well such as
Spell Ward - put on a friendly target a ward of magic that prevents the next 2 magic disabling effects, last 15 seconds 2 min cooldown
Armor/physical Ward - put on a friendly target a ward of magic that prevents the next 2 physical disabling effects, last 15 seconds 2 min cooldown
Ultimate Ward - put on a friendly target a ward of magic that prevents the next 1 disabling effects, last 15 seconds 2 min cooldown
these are obviously just examples but something like that for Clerics. Bards I think could have great gameplay and fun potential with their unique melodies. for example the ability function could change like the Epic melody gives root breaks and a little extra speed for a while for the everyone affected by this melody. Cathartic melody could break fears and charms. Menacing melody could break the very soft CC's like a paralysis or sleep CC. I think they should NOT have a AOE stun cc break.
Some archetypes like ranger or Mage should maybe have proactive instead of reactive CC breaks with targetable CC. now obviously blink or disengage might put them out of range but these abilities could have talent points (or make them this way) where if you hit this ability just before and you think a root or a stun is coming your way you avoid/evade/etc. the immunity in the ability should last the full duration of the animation and maybe have a little extra time after the animation but no longer than a few additional milliseconds of evasion/immunity.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Should very much be a important decision when leveling, but when approaching max level I feel like the archetype identity should just receive "class fantasy" cc/cc breaks. like frost mages should be slowing me, rangers should be snaring me with traps, a fighter should definitely be stunning me. However there should be for some archetypes but maybe not all a CC/cc breaks near max levels that are choices, whether its a new ability that offers new CC, or a upgrade talent for an ability you should just have that makes it longer or AOE (or wider).
Lastly I want to add a point that wasn't asked. What about trinket/armor, potions/food buffs. passives, and enchantments. I think all should be able to provide REDUCTIONS (not immunities/ or cc breaks) to cc
Trinket
I feel like regardless of choice every player should always get essentially 1 get out of jail free card when it come to CC. WOW and other MMO's did this with trinket but this could just be a general ability for everyone or a piece of gear.
ARMOR
I always think that if I wear HEAVY armor that I should be in roots/snares longer (10%-20% longer not much more, additional 1 or 2 seconds essentially)
Light armor should be stunned longer
medium armor should just be the baseline for cc durations
Potions and food buffs
Potions or food if they give bonus damage stats in this game should also have ones that exist that provide general reduction to cc in exchange you don't receive the "bonus crit". Thus giving a trade off. Plus these certain items create their own market as these potions would be more targeted toward pvper's and might be more valuable or less valuable depending on market factors.
Passives
whether Race or archetype I think there should be passives that give SMALL (no more than 10% for race. 20% for archetype) reduction to certain CC's
It would make sense if orcs were more stubborn and had a 5 or 10% reduction to stuns
Clerics could have a 10% or 20% reduction to fears.
Enchantments
Enchants are another important thing to provide reduction and bonus stats. low level enchants that provide reduction to cc's should only provide reduction but the higher level enchants provide both reduction and reduced stats.
That said all these things and my opinions would make important decision and if you did everything possible to get CC reduction it would be very useful in PVP and make you live longer and be tankier, and possibly more annoying. but you then lack more damage and kill ability. It also adds another style of play then just pure tankiness or pure damage but leaves the users with choices if I want to go full glass cannon, tanky, or more uptime in a fight.
I love CC. Most likely *more* than the average MMO player. I like systems where blows feel weighty, where a battle feels like an actual back and forth fight... as opposed to classic MMO combat, just swinging a stick at an enemy, and the enemy goes "UGH!" and the upper half of their body recoils in a silly animation while they have no discernable reaction. If I bash you in the face with a stick, you should need to recover. If you blast me with electricity, I should need to recover.
But alas, I know I'm in a very small camp of MMO players, so I will settle for saying CC and CC breaks are integral to MMO combat.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
This is acceptable, as long as its applied fairly. Giving rogues 2-3 specific types of CC breaks would seem fine, being a slippery lil bastard seems in line with the character archetype. But in that case, those options should have longer Cooldowns than classes with CC, and classes with CC need to have options to pin down the little gremlins to dole out appropriate punishment.
So while Rogue-like archetypes can have a multitude of specific get out of jail free cards that only apply to certain CC types, Tank-like archetypes should have limited CC breaks that apply to all types of CC.
But yes, all players should have some ways to mitigate at least a couple forms of CC.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I like to take CC abilities as I'm usually a battlefield controller. After playing MOBAs for a bit, I found I usually end up having a great time making sure DPS players get to press buttons as infrequently as possible. It's pretty great. Highly recommend.
I am more focused on RPG designs, while Ashes is primarily a PvP-centric game...
I don't think much about CCs and CC Breakers.
Rather, I think about the Fantasy aspects of the Classes.
I want my Rogue to feel like a Stealthy Thief and I want my Mage to feel like a Scholarly Wizard.
I want my Cleric to feel like a Wise Healer.
I do expect Rogues and Rangers to be able to Slow and Snare targets with Poisons and Traps.
And I expect them to know how to Disable Traps. (Mages should also be able to Freeze targets).
I do expect Mages and Bards to be able to Mesmerize and Stun and Distract opponents. (I love Blind)
I expect Clerics and Bards to be able to Cure Poisons/Wounds and Debuff afflictions.
Seems as though a Tank should be able to Shield Bash hard enough to Stun foes. Perhaps Tanks should be expected to Knock Down foes and trample over them.
Of course, Augments should be able to bridge the gaps for any Primary Archetypes that don't have CCs or CC Breakers. And some Passive Skills may be able to mitigate CCs.
What's most important in an RPG is that my Rogue feels like a Rogue. And my Mage feels like a Mage. And my Cleric feels like a Cleric.
But... PvP holds my least interest in RPGs.
And Ashes is a PvP-centric game, so...
In short, there should be the option to make a CC build and/or an Anti-CC build. Both builds should be significant enough to be viable/impactful play styles.
1). There should be spells that cause CC and spells that cleanse CC. These spells should be able to be ranked up to make them more powerful.
2). There should be character attributes that make your CC/cleanse spells more powerful.
3). There should be foods/potions that make your CC/cleanse spells more powerful.
4). There should be armor/weapons/accessories that make your CC/cleanse spells more powerful.
5). There should be character attributes that make your passive resistances to CC more powerful.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Defeats the purpose of everything mentioned above.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Give skills/attribute gains "diminishing returns" so at some point people will be more tempted to invest in the CC/cleanse options. Between skills, attributes, foods, potions, equipment stats, and other sources of CC/cleanses, you should be able to significantly affect your times, partially affect your times, or completely ignore your times. (There shouldn't be one option that negates all other options, like a "cleanse all now potion" or an "unbreakable slow spell for 10 seconds" option.)
I been a pvper most of my life played all sort of game from shaiaya soul and blade to black desert online
Action tab and hybrid combat systems.
The problem with CC is when you mix x amount of player into a group and they are chain cc'ing you.
early years of black desert online had a great CC limit where you reach a level cape 1.8 and you no longer can be CC able to break free.
this created players to learn how to combo properly and learn how not to break CC and get the most out of there damage chain.
should all players be able to break free from a cc - no because if a cc is earned then it could reward with a kill or damage. the problem lies in how much can you cc a player and for how long.
the best outcome for cc is 3-5 sec of down time [player being cc] This is a sort time but enough time to kill in most action combat games.
Dispel - skill I myself h8 dispel It break the point of a cc and having a long cooldown don't work very well when you are pvping with 50-100 player there going to be enough healers with skill off cooldown to break the cc on that player making cc pointless in these large fights.
another problem with cc is AOE cc mass sleep or mass root skill can be a pain in the ass and it's mostly benefits player that zerge in numbers.
my solution would be to have a CC limit, each type of cc has a number behind the cc sleep, root, silence ''yes narc silence is a bloody cc'' and it counts up to a max cc limit when the cc limit has been reach that player can no longer be cc.
personally I don't like dispels but they would prob be needed in world boss.
keep the cc of player down time low
keep the cooldown just high enough to not be able to press it all the time around 18sec is a good timer
have cc limit, when cc reached cant be cc for 30sec
make cc less AOE - stop zerge make the pvp more small scale and high risk high reward over a lucky cc and a zerge pushing.
with the cc limit able to dispel from time to time you will create new and interesting play style
Tank - could be cc and healed making all the fast dps class slowly break down enemy back line when the tanks take all the heat
Mobile dps - would allow these class to break free of cc and run away to try and do another sneak attack 'where are my rats class at''
-healers would have a chance to dispel them self and move to a better area or dispel other players in the frontline making them more aware of the cc dangers
all in all - making cc not broken to the core will give player a more enjoyable outcome to play aches of creation pvp
PS. Narc you need to workout more you are getting fat...
CC is an important way to combat zergs. While it isn't fun to lose control of your character, lacking the ability to counter large groups is significantly worse. CC breaks need to be present for both individuals and groups.
2. How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
CC breaks (like the wow trinkit) are good, however give everyone a way to have it up at the start of a fight. Nothing is worse than roaming in the world, winning a fight, and then losing because your cc break is on cd from the previous engagement.
3. What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
CC should be on a per class basis. I dont enjoy running into a class and wondering if they took a cc ability or a damage ability. Let me know what they have going into the engagement. MOBAs let you inspect the items for a reason, it allows the freedom to build however you want, but lets your opponents know what they are getting into.
I think everyone should have one hard CC break on a decently long cooldown - slightly longer than the CD of the average hard stun. Each class should have access to one or two DCD options that give them temporary stun immunity - meaning the have to be used proactively to avoid a stun and therefore introduce a layer of counter-play. Melee classes and healers should also have the ability to add root/slow cleansing to movement abilities. The amount of all these options should be proportional to amount of CC available to players. As an additional note I think that stuff like slows and roots being added as passives on rotational/core abilities is bad design, CC is interaction and it should take purposeful intent
For PvE I think interrupts are the main CC to focus on. Stuns, slows, roots, ect. can't work on bosses without totally unbalancing the fight or requiring the use of those types of abilities, but that sort of design seems very difficult to balance and keep fun. In PvE CC should mainly be a tool for trash and open-world farming type stuff
A: Annoying but they have there place.
Q: How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
A: If they don't then it's not be balanced now would it, Or let me put it to you all like this, Someone talks up to you tied to a post & starts punching you to death. Would you wish you at least had a small chance to escape? While 1 is game & other is life that is an apples to apples in context with common sense applied example.
Q: What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
A: Opt for more damage over CC/CC breaks? If it was a PVE game that would be perfect. It's not like randoms flag up & randomly attack you often in games let alone this one... Oh wait! yeah they do in every game.
Personally I'm for it, but its going to be a negative against the game for players due to forced PVP (refer the post punching example it applys here as well)
In general I think CC in MMOs should exist. They can make a hit feel way more impactful and are a crucial element in team play to set up and single out targets.
CC breaks on the other hand are more complicated. In PvE I feel like they should not exist period. I think an Encounter should be carefully crafted such that a CC is either a tool to resolve a mechanic or a punishment for missing one (Mostly looking at the way Final Fantasy 14 works in that regard). One should not be able to ignore entire boss mechanics simply by resisting or breaking a CC.
For PvP however, counter-play to CC is vital. Without it you could potentially just be ragdolled to death, which is one of the most frustrating feelings I have ever experienced.
Now as to how to achieve that counter-play is a matter of contention:
- There is a case to be made for having a short burst of CC-Immunity so you can weather a focused assault.
- Guild Wars 2 has an interesting system of a stacking "Stability" buff; every time a CC is applied a stack is removed instead, until you run out. However a focused effort of multiple opponents can chew through stacks very quickly.
- And then there's a retroactive CC-Break. In Guild Wars 2 every class has some form of Stun-Break, and it is a central aspect of buildcrafting to decide for or against taking such skills into a build. The cooldown and resource of such skills is their most important counterbalance. Additionally it feels really good to get some sort of "reward" for successfully breaking a stun, f.e. an additional CC-immunity burst.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I feel like every archetype should have access to some form of CC counterplay. However there should be a clear proficiency "imbalance" between Archetypes. F.e. certain Tanks could build into very strong CC resistance to be ready for the front lines, while a back line Mage would have very limited options with relatively high opportunity cost. Also the different forms of CC mitigation I outlined above (or even more different ones beyond that) could help further differentiate the Archetypes, having access to one version and but not another.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I am of the belief that CC and CC-Mitigation should carry an opportunity cost, for sure. Making such decisions makes build-crafting in MMOs interesting. If you want to get all tanky and CC-Resistant, you can do so, but it comes at the cost of your damage, mobility, or other capabilities.
All classes should have a form of CC, I personally find the design and theme better if classes get unique CC abilities, I.E. Druids get entangle, mages get knockback, warriors stun/slow, etc.
Additionally, from a PvE perspective different CC abilities provide different problem-solving opportunities to handling pulls based on group composition.
I think heterogeneity in archetype design leads to a more fun character identity and causes other players to be more impactful to the play experience, it allows individuals to shine because of what role they fill and let's them get to shine by filling in the fantasy associated with their archetype.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I don't think all archetypes should have hard CC breaks, similar to the first question I think it fits better with balance and theme to have certain archetypes able to break certain types of CC specifically, and maybe provide the support archetypes the ability to remove most/all CCs from allies (and maybe themselves.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Depends on the archetype, archetypes like Tank may need CC baked into their kit for mechanical/balance reasons, but overall, I like the idea that you choose to invest something into having a CC ability rather than it being given for free.
A wizard is never late, he arrives precisely when he means to.
I believe that crowd control (CC) and CC breaks are essential in MMORPGs. Players should have the ability to create obstacles with their powers, while also having the means to overcome those challenges. Not every outcome should be the same; there should be multiple options for addressing an issue, which often depends on a player's creativity. There's nothing more epic than witnessing a player find a way out of a problem that others deem impossible to solve.
I appreciate games that offer realistic, multiple outcomes to the same problem. Unfortunately, I feel the MMORPG genre has stagnated in this regard, as players tend to rely on the same solutions to recurring issues because they are safe and have worked in the past. I would like to see this formula shaken up, allowing players to explore new heights. By equipping characters with skills that, when creatively applied, can help them escape some forms of CC—though not all—would enhance gameplay.
For example, if a Mage casts an ability that encases a target in ice, preventing their movement, a teleportation ability could allow the caster to transfer just their body out of the ice, effectively escaping. An example of this would be the ability "Blink." Similarly, an ability that allows the user to vanish into shadows could enable them to fade out and reappear in the nearest shadow, which I envision as a Rogue + Mage combo, referred to as "Shadow Caster." This ability could also enable the user to escape from ice or a vortex of wind.
However, I do not see how CC abilities that induce sleep would allow for such creative escapes.
2. How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Yes, I believe every class should have some form of CC break, but it’s important to ensure there is a clear distinction in how each can be used. Not every class's CC or CC break should function the same way; instead, it should be unique to the class. For instance, one class might excel at certain types of CC while being vulnerable to others, creating a risk versus reward dynamic.
Some classes' CC breaks should only work against specific types of CC, introducing a "rock, paper, scissors" approach to gameplay. Additionally, having creative options for certain abilities could encourage players to think outside the box. For example, if a player is trapped in a cage, ring of fire, or vortex of wind, an ability that allows them to tunnel underground would be an inventive way to escape that CC.
3. What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I believe that some trade-offs are essential for class builds. However, I also think there should be creatively optional abilities that require experimentation or taking risks to see if they work. This concept has not been explored in a truly creative fashion in any MMORPG I've played, and I think it could shake the foundations of gameplay forever.
Furthermore, incorporating synergistic abilities into this system would be incredibly exciting. For instance, if a Mage blinks in the direction of a teammate, they could pull that teammate out of the ice and move them together with the player.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I dont think all classes/archetypes should be able to break CC... but only, if a CC break is available in a different form.
I guess there will be boss/mob mechanics having some kind of CC/stun and it would be amazing to have for example something from a crafter class (like a potion) that breaks it.
The big WINS i see here are a need for professions
[*] How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
CCs and CC-breaking are important parts of dynamic combat. Without disruption to routine, there is very little difference between PvE and PvP content. Optimal Rotations, performed without fear of interruption, risks making combat feel stale. I would also argue that, without dynamic involvement, there is a high risk of player skill becoming under-valued relative to gear strength. Progression is important for an advantage, but if it's the only thing that matters - it's disheartening to some players. Room for skill is important, and its is very strongly pronounced in the interaction of CC's, CC breaks, and their interaction with rotation vs. cooldowns.
Furthermore, I believe it's important to measure the role of each archetype and how their intended design operates within scalable content to determine what CC is appropriate. No single class should have it all.
My personal opinion, for optimal balance.
Raids will be mindless, boring, helpless zergs if Healing output doesn't drastically outpace standard DPS output. Similarly, pushes will be stagnant if Tanks can't survive prolonged extension to break lines even in the temporary absence of healing.
For that reason, the tools must exists (especially for DPS archetypes) to be able to disrupt the gameplay of the tanks and healers in a large-scale PvP environment in order to break through defenses, or withstand offensive pushes. This balance is important for fun and dynamic group content.
[*] How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I think we can all agree that no one class should have EVERYTHING in the toolshed. But I believe every class needs to have some amount of interaction with the CC/CC break - and Cooldown-Opportunity balance.
DPS classes need a way to interrupt and disrupt survivability tactics. But ONLY if their damage is insufficient to kill without them. For example, if a DPS class can already outdamage a Cleric's healing output - they don't really need to also have the ability to interrupt them.
I like the idea of support oriented classes being able to break the CCs of others . Perhaps not ALL CCs. (ex. How would you "untrip" someone?) But certainly things like "Fear", where a cleric or bard could, thematically, remove that fear through inspiration, cleansing, calming, or magical intervention.
I think every class should have some ability to negate (i.e. "dodge") CC. Perhaps some limited invulnerability like i-frames on a dodge, or a spell-shield or something. But those things should require skillful timing, quick reaction, and/or they should have a substantial cooldown.
Similarly, I like the idea of all classes having an inate one-time, longer CD, CC break ability - as has been employed by many other MMOs.
[*] What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Some classes having additional breaks through talents and skills feels appropriate. Tanks for example, should probably be better at shrugging off CC than others. I think role specific flavor is fair to establish somewhat intended Rock-Paper-Scissors balance.
(ex. I don't think a tank would get "feared", stunned, or tripped easily if they were trying not to. But I do think they could be magically put to sleep, rooted, or silenced. I don't think a fighter would get sleepy in the middle of spinning in circles with massive combat momentum and rage. But I do think you could trip them and root them. Rangers are far too dexterous to be rooted for long, but I don't see why they couldn't be stunned, feared, knocked away. Etc.)
If done in a role-appropriate way, role-specific CC/CC-break interaction talent choices are a great addition. I like the idea of being able to chose one over the other as a "choices matter" point of contention. If you want to play highly offensive, pick the 2 CCs. Even if the second one is weaker. If you want to play balanced, pick the stronger CC and the stronger CC break. Defensive playstyle? Pick the 2 CC breaks, even if the second one only breaks some types of CC.
Conclusion
CC has an important place in the game. It needs to exist to create dynamic combat. It needs to interact with a healthy Time-To-Death duration as one of SEVERAL tools that are important from an offensive AND defensive stand point. CCs need to exist for someone to escape, and CCs need to exist for offensive pressure. People want to PLAY the game, so the worst deployment of CC is when someone can remain CC'd from healthy to dead. Nobody likes this happening to them, and it shouldn't be able to. Defensive utility must exist to survive. If the utility runs out, the offensive pressure begins to mount. As long as the balance of the offensive and defensive cooldown systems don't create a reality where the fellow members of the trinity are just fodder for the infinite swarm of DPS classes to freely collect kills and stun-lock their way to victory, then I think any iteration of CC and CC break balance can be appropriate.
Remember. People want to play the game. Let them. People hate losing control of their character agency, but CC effects are important for the user. Don't make CC too punishing, but ensure that players have tools to succeed in their role, and I think the combat will be great.
First off I think It's crucial to not look at "crowd control" as a system itself that needs to be implemented. There are a lot of systems that have become generic in rpgs because they have been reused and evolved over the years.. Crowd control isn't one that should be. It needs to be handled per game and more within the scope of counterplay required to balance a specific build VS a sum of CC balanced across classes. If we look back to D&D and NeverwinterNights we have things like counterspelling that don't fall into the modern definition of cc, yet provide the desired counterplay for these games. Now CC is often looked at like each class should have X value of hard cc to balance out vs the others. I'm going to focus this write up on what to avoid and how to potentially solve it :
CC causing uneeded balancing on itself. There are a lot of games where I think "I need to time this 3 second CC so I can do a combo without being interupted". However, I only need that because I expect my opponent(s) to potentially CC me in that window to interrupt. If your goal is simply to give the player something to think about timing properly, then this is ok but there are better ways to do that (like the counterspellng example). The issue with reliance on hard cc in pvp is that it heavily favors the people outnumbering the other. Imo mechanics should slightly favor the outnumbered. One way to largely solve this is to have most if not all forms of complete character loss CC break upon damage in pvp.
CC causing a rift between pve and pvp balance. It's an option to have each skill affect pvp and pve differently but this may become more work and harder to balance later. I've seen a lot of games isolate pvp to instances to bandaid this. This is another reason why most CC should break on damage in pvp, as you can choose to not do that in pve. Dot damage already applied to the target should not break CC, while new applications should. That is crucial for both pve and pvp so that players are not constantly preventing CC with dot based abilities. I've seen this indirectly nerf dot abilities. Which they then get a numerical buff which makes no sense on paper to compensate. Having longer CC timers in pve typically pans out from what I have played. A mob in a pack may need to be out of a pve fight for a full minute, which would be egregious in pvp.
CC quota VS on demand counterplay additions. If you already have CC, you may not want to double down by having reactionary counterplay like parry,counterblow,riposte,counterspell,grab arrow ETC... All the the things that can happen within a fraction of a second that very specific counterplay. Stacking hard cc on top of having casting interrupts can also lead to casters being underpowered and needing buffs that don't make sense on paper. I've seen this turn most of a games casters into turrets that only function at distance. Casters should be more varied than that. Be weary of the sheer number of spell interrupting mechanics your game as a whole has.
CC reduction stats on gear. This seems like a good idea but it quickly becomes a polarizing trait between pve and pvp gear. While these gear sets should vary and each build should have different gear.. It's not ideal to make everyone carry a set of gear for pve and pvp for each build. In a game with good building this can result in way too much gear to carry. As well as breaking some builds if the CC reduction stat isn't present on something specifically needed for the build. This is also largely solved by having no hard CCs that aren't broken on damage in pvp.
Zoning builds can replace CC on the battlefield. IF you have good zoning builds you don't need large scale CC for pvp. The role of tank in smite for example is largely filled by zoning not CC. Ability to create LOS or move targets around. This was true in ESO rvr as well, you could a design a build with no purpose other than pulling target into enemy groups or doorways. This is far more effective on large scale and doesn't break small scale. It also gives tanks more of a role in pvp. I want to see tanks pulling enemy healers then the opposing tanks seeing it then pulling them back (or whatever class you give friendly pull to).
In conclusion : I prefer if we don't have entirely different CC skills for pve vs pvp. CC can be great when a game has their own version that works for that game.
In modern MMO's, people tend to expect being able to solve most all encounters outside of dungeons and raids alone. Similarly, people seem to expect every class can do abit of everything. I think this is a fantastic way to eliminate class uniqueness and add a huge dose of blandness to the genre.
Personally, I want CC to be a unique tool, limited to few class. I would also like to see different kinds of CC used for different kind of situations.
Examples;
Bard could have a long cooldown CC intended to pacify on (or a few) PvE mobs to make large pulls less chaotic and more manageable.
Tank could have a short duration stun/knockback.
Cleric could have a powerful undead fear or stun that lasted for a medium duration.
Only a few classes should be able to break out of hard CC like stun, root, or pacify. Maybe let different classes be able to break different things. I thinkg it is natural to let the tank have access to a catch all breakout, while ranger should be able to break from root, but not stun, etc.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I absolutely hate it. It would be the same as giving everyone heals, ressurection, range attacks etc. Let classes have their unique abilities, tools, spells and options to them. Make classes matter again.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
While this sounds like a good idea, the problem with making a "neccessary" tool gated behind skill points, is that now we no longer have a choice. We now have to spend skill points to take this tool, which in effect reduce the number of options for us. Let us make choices where they matter, but don't give us the choice between mandatory and optional.