while aoc dont have any factions but do have a corruption system..
it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a corruption only city where the bad guys can live in
Not surprisingly this has come up multiple times before in the endless loop of discussion on corruption. This was shot down by Steven in a stream chat around the time of the BR release when he would pop into various streamers feeds and answer questions while playing. Do not expect any reward for being corrupted. The point of the system is all stick and no carrot. You can choose to be corrupted, but there will risk v reward that you will need to ask yourself if it is worth it to you. The clarification that city guards will target corrupted as kill-on-sight shows that they are aware and don't want their "karma" system to be an ignored joke like so many other games. *cough New World cough*
so they are selling their game to be a pvp orientated game..
No they aren't.
People that want to hear that Ashes is a PvP oriented game will hear that, but that is not because Intrepid are saying that, it is because people often hear what they want to hear.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
so they are selling their game to be a pvp orientated game.. but they dont reward players for doing pvp in the open world
this aint good news :S
You don't get rewards for just killing, you get the rewards from whatever you are fighting over i.e. resources, farming locations, etc. Remember people drop a portion of there resources when they die.
They don't want to encourage you to go out and kill the first person you see. They want there to be more of a reason besides, oh look, a person i can attack.
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PlateauMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you wanna be a murder-hobo you gotta be ready for the murder-popo.
Mega troll fr
2
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
so they are selling their game to be a pvp orientated game.. but they dont reward players for doing pvp in the open world
this aint good news :S
Your reward for that action is the players farmed resources. Become corrupted isn't a function of pvp in general, but a very specific type of pvp action. If you want to fight people in fun pvp, look for sieges, caravans, node wars, or flagged players. If you want to gank low levels to feel big, or fight people who have no desire to pvp, you're going to get corrupted. And if you do it enough some other person who loves to pvp as well is going to come searching
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
what system is in place for people to not get griefed by "karmabombers" anyone who plays bdo doesnt need me to explain but for others, lets say you or your group is farming on a spot and someone else comes to that spot and starts kill stealing your mobs/ruins your grinding spot by taking mobs. if you wanna kill him you will go corrupted, not only that, once he comes back he can freely kill you and you cant defend yourself otherwise you will get more corrupted. did they talk about this aspect of the game at all? like what is the griefer who steals mobs risking? other than having to walk back to the spot?
what system is in place for people to not get griefed by "karmabombers" anyone who plays bdo doesnt need me to explain but for others, lets say you or your group is farming on a spot and someone else comes to that spot and starts kill stealing your mobs/ruins your grinding spot by taking mobs. if you wanna kill him you will go corrupted, not only that, once he comes back he can freely kill you and you cant defend yourself otherwise you will get more corrupted. did they talk about this aspect of the game at all? like what is the griefer who steals mobs risking? other than having to walk back to the spot?
Communication.
And also the fact that Ashes will have more than one spot that contains worthwhile PvE for players at the level cap.
I'm sure that between those two, you can figure out how to not get "karmabombed".
The idea in Ashes is to not kill that player. You can, but you will suffer if you do. If you have corruption from killing some random player, I can attack you without becoming a combatant or gaining corruption, as can any other player. This means that if you kill that one player, literally anyone else that sees you is free to attack you with raw material loss being the only PvP penalty. You, on the other hand, will gain corruption for each of these attackers that you kill, and each kill will also see you drop more items when killed, and your stats will become less effective in PvP combat making you easier and easier to kill (which in turn means players are more likely to try their luck).
So yeah, just because you can attack a player in Ashes, doesn't mean you should.
what system is in place for people to not get griefed by "karmabombers" anyone who plays bdo doesnt need me to explain but for others, lets say you or your group is farming on a spot and someone else comes to that spot and starts kill stealing your mobs/ruins your grinding spot by taking mobs. if you wanna kill him you will go corrupted, not only that, once he comes back he can freely kill you and you cant defend yourself otherwise you will get more corrupted. did they talk about this aspect of the game at all? like what is the griefer who steals mobs risking? other than having to walk back to the spot?
Communication.
And also the fact that Ashes will have more than one spot that contains worthwhile PvE for players at the level cap.
I'm sure that between those two, you can figure out how to not get "karmabombed".
The idea in Ashes is to not kill that player. You can, but you will suffer if you do. If you have corruption from killing some random player, I can attack you without becoming a combatant or gaining corruption, as can any other player. This means that if you kill that one player, literally anyone else that sees you is free to attack you with raw material loss being the only PvP penalty. You, on the other hand, will gain corruption for each of these attackers that you kill, and each kill will also see you drop more items when killed, and your stats will become less effective in PvP combat making you easier and easier to kill (which in turn means players are more likely to try their luck).
So yeah, just because you can attack a player in Ashes, doesn't mean you should.
so basically its a perfect game if you wanna come to a dungeon or a spot where someone is already farming and you keep stealing his mobs just to annoy him. not only that you are risking absoultely nothing and you can freely grief the person farming? and not only that, after that person defends his spot you can call in your friends and break his gear? people actually believe this is a good system?
what system is in place for people to not get griefed by "karmabombers" anyone who plays bdo doesnt need me to explain but for others, lets say you or your group is farming on a spot and someone else comes to that spot and starts kill stealing your mobs/ruins your grinding spot by taking mobs. if you wanna kill him you will go corrupted, not only that, once he comes back he can freely kill you and you cant defend yourself otherwise you will get more corrupted. did they talk about this aspect of the game at all? like what is the griefer who steals mobs risking? other than having to walk back to the spot?
Communication.
And also the fact that Ashes will have more than one spot that contains worthwhile PvE for players at the level cap.
I'm sure that between those two, you can figure out how to not get "karmabombed".
The idea in Ashes is to not kill that player. You can, but you will suffer if you do. If you have corruption from killing some random player, I can attack you without becoming a combatant or gaining corruption, as can any other player. This means that if you kill that one player, literally anyone else that sees you is free to attack you with raw material loss being the only PvP penalty. You, on the other hand, will gain corruption for each of these attackers that you kill, and each kill will also see you drop more items when killed, and your stats will become less effective in PvP combat making you easier and easier to kill (which in turn means players are more likely to try their luck).
So yeah, just because you can attack a player in Ashes, doesn't mean you should.
so basically its a perfect game if you wanna come to a dungeon or a spot where someone is already farming and you keep stealing his mobs just to annoy him. not only that you are risking absoultely nothing and you can freely grief the person farming? and not only that, after that person defends his spot you can call in your friends and break his gear? people actually believe this is a good system?
You don’t own the area or the mobs in it. If someone comes to farm the same area, you can kill them. If they fight back because they also want the area, then you get no corruption and you get a portion of their stuff. If they don’t fight back, you get flagged corrupted for killing a noncombatant, but you get even more of their stuff than you would if they fought back.
You have no risk of having your gear destroyed unless you make it a habit of killing players who don’t fight back. If you want to criticize the anti-griefing system, at least gather more than surface-level knowledge.
what system is in place for people to not get griefed by "karmabombers" anyone who plays bdo doesnt need me to explain but for others, lets say you or your group is farming on a spot and someone else comes to that spot and starts kill stealing your mobs/ruins your grinding spot by taking mobs. if you wanna kill him you will go corrupted, not only that, once he comes back he can freely kill you and you cant defend yourself otherwise you will get more corrupted. did they talk about this aspect of the game at all? like what is the griefer who steals mobs risking? other than having to walk back to the spot?
Communication.
And also the fact that Ashes will have more than one spot that contains worthwhile PvE for players at the level cap.
I'm sure that between those two, you can figure out how to not get "karmabombed".
The idea in Ashes is to not kill that player. You can, but you will suffer if you do. If you have corruption from killing some random player, I can attack you without becoming a combatant or gaining corruption, as can any other player. This means that if you kill that one player, literally anyone else that sees you is free to attack you with raw material loss being the only PvP penalty. You, on the other hand, will gain corruption for each of these attackers that you kill, and each kill will also see you drop more items when killed, and your stats will become less effective in PvP combat making you easier and easier to kill (which in turn means players are more likely to try their luck).
So yeah, just because you can attack a player in Ashes, doesn't mean you should.
so basically its a perfect game if you wanna come to a dungeon or a spot where someone is already farming and you keep stealing his mobs just to annoy him. not only that you are risking absoultely nothing and you can freely grief the person farming? and not only that, after that person defends his spot you can call in your friends and break his gear? people actually believe this is a good system?
You don’t own the area or the mobs in it. If someone comes to farm the same area, you can kill them. If they fight back because they also want the area, then you get no corruption and you get a portion of their stuff. If they don’t fight back, you get flagged corrupted for killing a noncombatant, but you get even more of their stuff than you would if they fought back.
You have no risk of having your gear destroyed unless you make it a habit of killing players who don’t fight back. If you want to criticize the anti-griefing system, at least gather more than surface-level knowledge.
Another point to add to this is that if you are in a dungeon, you are probably not remaining in one place. Also, there is probably a good amount of time needed to get there in the first place.
If you come across someone in a dungeon (or a group of players, more like) and you attack and kill them, they are probably not going to be seen again for a while.
I mean, mobs respawn.
The issue with that is that if the group manages to kill your healer, you are left in the middle of a dungeon that has mobs that respawn, with a dead healer. The healer would then need to respawn themselves, leaving the group to have to get to which ever of the semi-random respawn points they end up in.
So in a dungeon situation, groups are likely going to be uninterested in doing something just to grief others.
With all due respect. Intimating that people 'shut up' to let the status quo do its thing has a chilling effect on open communication & transparency. As example, the New World game (PVP) with its experts released an Alpha recently where a minority of more senior players griefed noobs at the starting area. That impacts some player participation. Do we really have to start player testing in Alpha to say that? It doesn't take a prophet to ask Intrepid to avoid the same mistakes that limit the potential player base and profits. From where I stand, Intrepid has a small staff with big ideas (that's great)! They are big boys and girls capable of sifting through input and gleaning out the nuggets for consideration at the 'weekly meeting.' Isn't there a quote on doom & repeating historical mistakes of the past? Best wishes.
I recall Steven said, that a bigger level gap also gave a bigger amount of corruption/debuff or something like that. So griefing low levels could end badly for the griefer
so basically its a perfect game if you wanna come to a dungeon or a spot where someone is already farming and you keep stealing his mobs just to annoy him. not only that you are risking absoultely nothing and you can freely grief the person farming? and not only that, after that person defends his spot you can call in your friends and break his gear? people actually believe this is a good system?
In addition to the corrections from Noanni and Caeryl, if you are in a group farming dungeon content and a single character is able to meaningfully "steal" or actually disrupt you, then you and your group are doing something wrong. Given your increased spread, damage potential, and greater enemy manipulation potential (pushes, pulls, roots etc.)
You also have the ability to declare a guild war on the offending players guild if it is truly bothering you that much, putting you all to combatant states. Also if there is just one continual griefer, your mayor does have the ability to declare them a enemy of the state i believe it was referred as. Granted we will have to wait till we can get these systems in our hands, to get to the nitty gritty of how they will all interact.
I would also encourage you to look into the systems a little more thoroughly if you are interested in ashes @Jahlon seems to always be willing to help answer new comers questions about the game, and runs both a youtube channel and website to compile and share info, and thanks to people like @Shaze, the wiki has a lot of updated information and direct quotes and soundbytes from the development team.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
what system is in place for people to not get griefed by "karmabombers" anyone who plays bdo doesnt need me to explain but for others, lets say you or your group is farming on a spot and someone else comes to that spot and starts kill stealing your mobs/ruins your grinding spot by taking mobs. if you wanna kill him you will go corrupted, not only that, once he comes back he can freely kill you and you cant defend yourself otherwise you will get more corrupted. did they talk about this aspect of the game at all? like what is the griefer who steals mobs risking? other than having to walk back to the spot?
There are a few systems that might work together against karma bombers.
For starters, you only gain corruption if you deal the killing blow to the person, there is no damage window where if you hit them and they die, you gain corruption.
We also have a death penalty in pvp unlike BDO.
We don't have health percentages for players(think BDO mobs before you have knowledge) so you can't inch a persons health to 1 percent and letting a mob get them but you can damage them to interfere with the fight and increase the chance of death. Combine this with the death penalty, sticking around a person who has expressed a willingness to fight could be an easy way to end up dying, suffering a death penalty and if the mob you were trying to steal dealt the killing blow, they aren't suffering the corruption penalty for it.
So it might become this gamble for both players where most people would either choose to fight, leave, or work something out.
id like to thank all of you for responding to me, you all brought really good points and brought up a lot of stuff that i wasnt aware off before, i just recently started getting a bit more interested in the game and since this was one of my biggest concerns, i got annoyed a bit by what it looked like. (everything else in game looked amazing but just this corruption system reminded me so much of what i hated about bdo) i gotta say that there are some pretty good systems in place that would prevent similar behaviour than what karmabombers did in bdo.
id like to thank all of you for responding to me, you all brought really good points and brought up a lot of stuff that i wasnt aware off before, i just recently started getting a bit more interested in the game and since this was one of my biggest concerns, i got annoyed a bit by what it looked like. (everything else in game looked amazing but just this corruption system reminded me so much of what i hated about bdo) i gotta say that there are some pretty good systems in place that would prevent similar behaviour than what karmabombers did in bdo.
Welcome to the Cult
It's nice to see people asking questions some people just say things as fact when they have no idea what they are on about.
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
I have not read everything there is about corruption but I have a noob question that might already be answered a 100 times:
Why does corruption apply once you killed someone unwilling to fight back and not the moment you initiate attack on an unwilling target?
As far as I understand it AoC wants to incentivice PvP but also limit it so that possibly people can fight each other in the open world (no specific battleground/Arena needed) but you do not need to fear that everyone stabs you the moment you turn your back (corruprion as a disincentive).
But then why design corruption in a way that one person needs to give up from the get go? That does not incentivize PvP just one guy wacking down a training puppet. Why not differenciat between willing combatants (a Duel, a Siege,an Event, people who flag themself for PvP,...) and unwilling combatants (anyone that did not Flag themselve for PvP or joined any kind of PvP Option/Event).
That would still allow everyone to target and kill anyone, but reduce the fights were people just drop their weapons and flop on their belly to 0.
Or to ask in a different way: Why design PvP in a way that many players will be temptet to just give up immediatly?
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The incentive mostly comes from outside the corruption system. The corruption system is a risk and the reward is whatever the attacker thinks that risk is worth.
It gives players freedom to fight over things like resources and spawns in the open world. If you are farming a resource, someone might come up and attack you so they can farm that area and/or kill you and take some of the resources you have already gathered. You might want to fight back so that you can continue to farm that area or if you have a lot of resources on you, you might want to fight back to try to defend them and reduce how much you do lose in case you die.
By rereading stuff that has been said about corruption , I realised where corruption will probably shine , is by disincentive groups to PK solo players. And generate more fair 1vs1 fight.
Killing one solo players while in a group will probably not split the corruption amount the group but each members will get as much corruption as if they had kill it in a 1vs1 fight. Corruption would be multiply by the amounts of party members.
At least it would make sense for me.
I feel that group will go more often for caravans than solo players. Just because of the rewards.
Assuming that IS will not go for more than 100% drop penalty ( red =3 time green penalty)
So max 33% of the loot of each victims divided by the party member will not be very attractive vs the corruption.
Where attacking caravans has only the death penalty to disincentive and more loot to attract you.
( there are always people willing to kill for killing but well...)
For group vs group it will probably not generate corruption because while in a group you will be more emphasized to fight back.
There will always be guys that will attack lower player than them but I hope that IS, the Alpha and Beta testers will determine a fair corruption multiplier for lvl difference than will disincentive it.
But with this said , there may not be enough corrupted player for the bounty hunter ...
That is why the so called corruption system is very important. If it is too restrictive - it will stop any open world PvP and there will be only events like sieges and caravans. If it is too loose, there will be too much ganking, that will stop the progression of many of the players, and will make them feel frustrated.
In the first case the game will lose the competitive players, and they are the majority of the online players. In the second case the game will lose the so called PvE players - often solo or small group guys, who are not very competitive, and many of them are not cooperative too, as they are afraid of losses, but also of rejection. Do not sound very heroic, but they are the majority of the MMORPG players.
The entire point of the corruption system is to DETER people from being complete and total asshats. Meaningful pvp isn't going out and ass stabbing Joe Gatherer while he's out getting supplies. It's attacking the caravan that is CARRYING MORE SUPPLIES, which hinders nodes meaning that they may or may not level up appropriately or build something up that is needed in time for siege...so yes...it is meaningful pvp.
Anyone that is currently actually following along with any form of development knows that there is in fact other ways for your "competitive players" to get their jollies. There isn't a modicum of ways for PvP to happen, and it's not all just in the open world. Thinking that competitive players are the majority is a fallacy and can not be proven at this time...you also hopped into a actual dumb amount of back peddling by stating that That pver's are the majority...so which is it? You can't tell me because you don't have the data and are just talking out of your stove top.
Fact is "Ashes isn't for everyone" that has been said multiple times.
It's also been stated that "We work in a manner and process that the team, as experienced developers who have built massive MMORPGs previously, has deemed the best way to make the quality of MMORPG that we want. If you feel concern or doubt, thats fine. Anyone who doubts our intentions or process or ability, is able to walk away and come back later if they want, or not." So honestly idk what you're actually complaining about except for the overbearing concept of complaining as a whole. Everything is going to be tested and gone over, you can take your fallacies, put them back in the bag you pulled them out from, and yeet them straight back into the well of bad ideas.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Oh I see you can find old threads
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Second there are many who claim the PvP for the right to farm mobs is pointless, as there will be more meaningful ways for PvP as caravans and sieges. This is simply stupid. There are caravans, sieges, GvG in BDO too - that does not make the PvP there meaningful.
See, you are assuming that because Ashes will have open PvP, sieges and caravans, that it must be the same as BDO that also has open PvP, sieges and caravans.
What you are missing is the weight of importance on each of those things in each game.
BDO didn't place much importance on sieges. It's really hard for sieges to matter when you are not restricted to a single server, do I don't blame Pearl Abyss for this.
Additionally, sieges in BDO were a thing that only a small percentage of players actually took part in - and thus only a small percentage of players in BDO were affected by them at all.
BDO sieges are probably more analogous tin castle sieges in Ashes, rather than all sieges. Castle sieges only affect a small portion of the player base, and having a castle is more a case of bragging rights than anything else.
Node sieges in Ashes though, they affect literally everyone. Every player in the game will be a citizen of a node, and those nodes can and will be sieged, greatly affecting the lives on any citizens should they lose.
Caravans in BDO are also not really comparable to Ashes caravans.
In BDO, caravans are essentially PvE content (unless you are not referring to the Desert Caravans - in which case I have no idea what you are talking about).
In Ashes, a caravan is where a player literally puts up to 10 times their inventory worth of materials (raw or processed, afaik) in to a vehicle and then attempted to move it from one node to another.
If someone attacks this caravan and wins, then they get those materials.
There are other caravan types, but this is the type that will be most common as virtually all materials used to make virtually all items will need to be moved via caravan.
Also, somewhat strangely, when you attack a caravan in BDO you can get flagged - whereas caravan PvP in Ashes is free from the corruption system.
Combined, these things all work together to make the siege and caravan system in Ashes far more important to every player in the game. Combined, they represent literally everything in the game - how you make money, how you upgrade gear, where in the world you live - even what content is available for you to participate in.
Even that mob spawning point that you want to PvP with someone over is dependent on sieges In order for that spot to spawn max level nodes, it needs to be in the ZoI of a metropolis, and if that metropolis is successfully sieged, those mobs won't spawn any more - at least not at that level.
Take the importance of PvP types in BDO and turn them upside down - that is Ashes.
You may not see it, but literally everyone else does, including the several hundred years of combined MMO development experience on staff at Intrepid - and literally everyone will take their experience over yours.
Let point few essential things. First there is a hype, which makes the expectations unrealistic - this is normal for any game. Some people expect AOC to have so big world, that there will be no competition among the players who hunt mobs - this is absolutely unrealistic if the game is successful.
Second there are many who claim the PvP for the right to farm mobs is pointless, as there will be more meaningful ways for PvP as caravans and sieges. This is simply stupid. There are caravans, sieges, GvG in BDO too - that does not make the PvP there meaningful.
Most people do not realize that what makes the PvP in a MMO meaningful is not the goal, neither the rewards, although both are very important, but the consequences.
So a meaningful caravan gank - yes that will be ganking if it is open world as promised, not a fair PvP - is when the caravan care goods of players, and they lose them.
(Here we get another problem - why anybody will use a caravan, if it could be attacked freely?)
The meaningful siege is when the winner takes control over part of the map, taxes, rights to build, rights to trade and etc. So he conquer, but then can manage the conquered.
That is why the fight for the so called farming spot - so a place where the players hunt mobs - is a very meaningful. As it is a fight with consequences for both - the winner, and the loser. Also the winner will micromanage the spot - part of the map. See this is not very different from a siege. Also similar is the PvP for boss. And both - PvP for farming spot or a boss, are essential small scale competition, for parties or among individual players.
That is why the so called corruption system is very important. If it is too restrictive - it will stop any open world PvP and there will be only events like sieges and caravans. If it is too loose, there will be too much ganking, that will stop the progression of many of the players, and will make them feel frustrated.
In the first case the game will lose the competitive players, and they are the majority of the online players. In the second case the game will lose the so called PvE players - often solo or small group guys, who are not very competitive, and many of them are not cooperative too, as they are afraid of losses, but also of rejection. Do not sound very heroic, but they are the majority of the MMORPG players.
BDO player here.
The Caravan you're referring to in BDO is simply a wagon to carry your goods. You lose nothing of value except trading goods, which are almost of no value and importance. Wagons are commonly used in BDO to transport grinding loots, which will not be lost even if the wagon is destroyed. The loots are everything in BDO. Not losing the loots means there's no use attacking a player's wagon.
Sieges and GvG in BDO does not mean anything. It is simply a PvP event to boasts each others e-peens. You lose nothing if you lose the war, except your guild's position as the leader of the region. You can't do a lot anyway as a guild in BDO. Guilds that owns a node will only be able to collect taxes.
Comparing to AoC, where the world building itself is up to the players, Caravans and Sieges are very important. Sieging a node could destroy a node completely if successful. This is important for competing guilds if they own another node which cannot be leveled up due to another node already being at the same level as theirs. All the buildings and infrastructure, your efforts to build the node can be destroyed in a siege. Your houses as well. This is a real risk.
Caravans are used to transport actual goods and resources. Be it quest items, resources that you're transporting to level up your nodes or complete a building in your node, or your items that you want to sell at another place. Having your Caravan destroyed means it will drop a portion of the goods inside your caravan. You might lose the most valuable item in your caravan that you definitely do not want to lose.
These are what is meant by meaningful PvP. There are risks and rewards. There are consequences for every action you take or or do not take.
As a BDO player, I understand why you're very worried about farming mobs. To be honest with you, BDO is the only game that I have felt that way. Mobs are everything in BDO. Mobs drops the loot and golds that you need to upgrade your character.
But can you say it will be the same in AoC? Will it be like BDO where mobs are very important to the growth of the world, or your character? I highly doubt it. The game is not meant to be a grindfest, which is what BDO is.
The Corruption system should not deter any kinds of players. In fact, players are incentivised to flag for PvP to suffer only half of the death penalty. If you value your items (partial loot enabled) and do not want to accrue EXP debt at 100%, you should fight back. If not, you can try to run away. In the event that you die, the player will accumulate Corruption.
To remove Corruption, they cannot simply AFK. There is no expiring timer on the Corruption. They have to die and suffer the death penalties. So having their friends killing them, is not a good idea either. There might also be another way which is by questing but this is only under certain conditions.
EXP debt is not merely negative EXP. You will suffer from stats dampening and lowered gear proficiency/eficiency. All the more reason to fight back and win.
I'm a casual. I am not that interested in PvP. However, these systems makes me want to participate in the PvP just because it sounds fun and have an objective. And because of that, I can tell you that even a casual like me would more than likely to fight back. Carebear no more.
Fisrt, these are your expectations for AOC. Let be clear - you say what you imagine to be the perfect game, and it never could happen in any game, as you know - most existing MMORPGs are PvE focused, and that does not make them good games.
In fact what you expect is in direct contradiction with the concept for an open world game.
These are the expectations because that is how it is getting developed, the only thing it contradicts is what YOU want for the game and at the end of the day it isn't about what you want, it's what the devs want.
Also: "We work in a manner and process that the team, as experienced developers who have built massive MMORPGs previously, has deemed the best way to make the quality of MMORPG that we want" - any MMORPG is made like that.
Damn, you don't say? Almost like the devs know what they're doing or something. Funny.
And I suppose this forum is to comment and debate the concepts and features of AOC, but not to say this is the best game ever - as the game does not exist yet.
It would be, except damn near everything you post is absolute bs, baiting, and honestly not worth the time to even type...yet here we are.
As for the data - the most popular and profitable online games right now are LoL, Fortnite, other mobas and battle arenas, FPS, competitive card games. Deal with the facts.
Your fuckin data is literally based on games that are not part of the genre, automatically invalidated as there is no argument or support to one to be made there, especially since this is an MMORPG...and the numbers aren't in yet..so..no...nope. Nadda, nothing here.
As I understand AOC will be an open world game, both for the PvP and the PvE, and that means that often the PvP and the PvE will mix. Obviously that will not be WoW, ESO, GW2 type of themepark instanced game, where the solo players, the cooperative players and the competitive players and activities are strictly separated.
Ashes of Creation is a PVX game, where guess what, PvP touches damn near everything in the game. Which you would know if you weren't so massively misinformed and constantly spouting off jabberwocky juice everywhere. Once again ASHES.IS.NOT.FOR.EVERYONE. If you won't like it don't play it, it's simple as that.
Such an open world game is very hard to handle as the players are very different and that creates constant conflicts. Like this here
The only constant conflict is logic not being absorbed. Damn near everyone else that is keeping up with things knows and understands what things are planned. It's getting old just seeing your posts anymore. You're about as bad as the bear at this point.
(Here we get another problem - why anybody will use a caravan, if it could be attacked freely?)
I would say so, yes. If theres an increase in efficiency or speed of acquisition people will. Theres a reason why in old school runescape people actually use the chaos altar in deep wilderness (aka pvp land) to train prayer; Its the absolute fastest xp/hour despite the potential monetary loss.
Comments
Not surprisingly this has come up multiple times before in the endless loop of discussion on corruption. This was shot down by Steven in a stream chat around the time of the BR release when he would pop into various streamers feeds and answer questions while playing. Do not expect any reward for being corrupted. The point of the system is all stick and no carrot. You can choose to be corrupted, but there will risk v reward that you will need to ask yourself if it is worth it to you. The clarification that city guards will target corrupted as kill-on-sight shows that they are aware and don't want their "karma" system to be an ignored joke like so many other games. *cough New World cough*
so they are selling their game to be a pvp orientated game.. but they dont reward players for doing pvp in the open world
this aint good news :S
People that want to hear that Ashes is a PvP oriented game will hear that, but that is not because Intrepid are saying that, it is because people often hear what they want to hear.
Ashes is PVX
You don't get rewards for just killing, you get the rewards from whatever you are fighting over i.e. resources, farming locations, etc. Remember people drop a portion of there resources when they die.
They don't want to encourage you to go out and kill the first person you see. They want there to be more of a reason besides, oh look, a person i can attack.
Your reward for that action is the players farmed resources. Become corrupted isn't a function of pvp in general, but a very specific type of pvp action. If you want to fight people in fun pvp, look for sieges, caravans, node wars, or flagged players. If you want to gank low levels to feel big, or fight people who have no desire to pvp, you're going to get corrupted. And if you do it enough some other person who loves to pvp as well is going to come searching
Communication.
And also the fact that Ashes will have more than one spot that contains worthwhile PvE for players at the level cap.
I'm sure that between those two, you can figure out how to not get "karmabombed".
The idea in Ashes is to not kill that player. You can, but you will suffer if you do. If you have corruption from killing some random player, I can attack you without becoming a combatant or gaining corruption, as can any other player. This means that if you kill that one player, literally anyone else that sees you is free to attack you with raw material loss being the only PvP penalty. You, on the other hand, will gain corruption for each of these attackers that you kill, and each kill will also see you drop more items when killed, and your stats will become less effective in PvP combat making you easier and easier to kill (which in turn means players are more likely to try their luck).
So yeah, just because you can attack a player in Ashes, doesn't mean you should.
so basically its a perfect game if you wanna come to a dungeon or a spot where someone is already farming and you keep stealing his mobs just to annoy him. not only that you are risking absoultely nothing and you can freely grief the person farming? and not only that, after that person defends his spot you can call in your friends and break his gear? people actually believe this is a good system?
You don’t own the area or the mobs in it. If someone comes to farm the same area, you can kill them. If they fight back because they also want the area, then you get no corruption and you get a portion of their stuff. If they don’t fight back, you get flagged corrupted for killing a noncombatant, but you get even more of their stuff than you would if they fought back.
You have no risk of having your gear destroyed unless you make it a habit of killing players who don’t fight back. If you want to criticize the anti-griefing system, at least gather more than surface-level knowledge.
Another point to add to this is that if you are in a dungeon, you are probably not remaining in one place. Also, there is probably a good amount of time needed to get there in the first place.
If you come across someone in a dungeon (or a group of players, more like) and you attack and kill them, they are probably not going to be seen again for a while.
I mean, mobs respawn.
The issue with that is that if the group manages to kill your healer, you are left in the middle of a dungeon that has mobs that respawn, with a dead healer. The healer would then need to respawn themselves, leaving the group to have to get to which ever of the semi-random respawn points they end up in.
So in a dungeon situation, groups are likely going to be uninterested in doing something just to grief others.
I recall Steven said, that a bigger level gap also gave a bigger amount of corruption/debuff or something like that. So griefing low levels could end badly for the griefer
I will never stop cracking up about this.
In addition to the corrections from Noanni and Caeryl, if you are in a group farming dungeon content and a single character is able to meaningfully "steal" or actually disrupt you, then you and your group are doing something wrong. Given your increased spread, damage potential, and greater enemy manipulation potential (pushes, pulls, roots etc.)
You also have the ability to declare a guild war on the offending players guild if it is truly bothering you that much, putting you all to combatant states. Also if there is just one continual griefer, your mayor does have the ability to declare them a enemy of the state i believe it was referred as. Granted we will have to wait till we can get these systems in our hands, to get to the nitty gritty of how they will all interact.
I would also encourage you to look into the systems a little more thoroughly if you are interested in ashes @Jahlon seems to always be willing to help answer new comers questions about the game, and runs both a youtube channel and website to compile and share info, and thanks to people like @Shaze, the wiki has a lot of updated information and direct quotes and soundbytes from the development team.
There are a few systems that might work together against karma bombers.
For starters, you only gain corruption if you deal the killing blow to the person, there is no damage window where if you hit them and they die, you gain corruption.
We also have a death penalty in pvp unlike BDO.
We don't have health percentages for players(think BDO mobs before you have knowledge) so you can't inch a persons health to 1 percent and letting a mob get them but you can damage them to interfere with the fight and increase the chance of death. Combine this with the death penalty, sticking around a person who has expressed a willingness to fight could be an easy way to end up dying, suffering a death penalty and if the mob you were trying to steal dealt the killing blow, they aren't suffering the corruption penalty for it.
So it might become this gamble for both players where most people would either choose to fight, leave, or work something out.
Welcome to the Cult
It's nice to see people asking questions some people just say things as fact when they have no idea what they are on about.
Why does corruption apply once you killed someone unwilling to fight back and not the moment you initiate attack on an unwilling target?
As far as I understand it AoC wants to incentivice PvP but also limit it so that possibly people can fight each other in the open world (no specific battleground/Arena needed) but you do not need to fear that everyone stabs you the moment you turn your back (corruprion as a disincentive).
But then why design corruption in a way that one person needs to give up from the get go? That does not incentivize PvP just one guy wacking down a training puppet. Why not differenciat between willing combatants (a Duel, a Siege,an Event, people who flag themself for PvP,...) and unwilling combatants (anyone that did not Flag themselve for PvP or joined any kind of PvP Option/Event).
That would still allow everyone to target and kill anyone, but reduce the fights were people just drop their weapons and flop on their belly to 0.
Or to ask in a different way: Why design PvP in a way that many players will be temptet to just give up immediatly?
It gives players freedom to fight over things like resources and spawns in the open world. If you are farming a resource, someone might come up and attack you so they can farm that area and/or kill you and take some of the resources you have already gathered. You might want to fight back so that you can continue to farm that area or if you have a lot of resources on you, you might want to fight back to try to defend them and reduce how much you do lose in case you die.
Killing one solo players while in a group will probably not split the corruption amount the group but each members will get as much corruption as if they had kill it in a 1vs1 fight. Corruption would be multiply by the amounts of party members.
At least it would make sense for me.
I feel that group will go more often for caravans than solo players. Just because of the rewards.
Assuming that IS will not go for more than 100% drop penalty ( red =3 time green penalty)
So max 33% of the loot of each victims divided by the party member will not be very attractive vs the corruption.
Where attacking caravans has only the death penalty to disincentive and more loot to attract you.
( there are always people willing to kill for killing but well...)
For group vs group it will probably not generate corruption because while in a group you will be more emphasized to fight back.
There will always be guys that will attack lower player than them but I hope that IS, the Alpha and Beta testers will determine a fair corruption multiplier for lvl difference than will disincentive it.
But with this said , there may not be enough corrupted player for the bounty hunter ...
The entire point of the corruption system is to DETER people from being complete and total asshats. Meaningful pvp isn't going out and ass stabbing Joe Gatherer while he's out getting supplies. It's attacking the caravan that is CARRYING MORE SUPPLIES, which hinders nodes meaning that they may or may not level up appropriately or build something up that is needed in time for siege...so yes...it is meaningful pvp.
Anyone that is currently actually following along with any form of development knows that there is in fact other ways for your "competitive players" to get their jollies. There isn't a modicum of ways for PvP to happen, and it's not all just in the open world. Thinking that competitive players are the majority is a fallacy and can not be proven at this time...you also hopped into a actual dumb amount of back peddling by stating that That pver's are the majority...so which is it? You can't tell me because you don't have the data and are just talking out of your stove top.
Fact is "Ashes isn't for everyone" that has been said multiple times.
It's also been stated that "We work in a manner and process that the team, as experienced developers who have built massive MMORPGs previously, has deemed the best way to make the quality of MMORPG that we want. If you feel concern or doubt, thats fine. Anyone who doubts our intentions or process or ability, is able to walk away and come back later if they want, or not." So honestly idk what you're actually complaining about except for the overbearing concept of complaining as a whole. Everything is going to be tested and gone over, you can take your fallacies, put them back in the bag you pulled them out from, and yeet them straight back into the well of bad ideas.
What you are missing is the weight of importance on each of those things in each game.
BDO didn't place much importance on sieges. It's really hard for sieges to matter when you are not restricted to a single server, do I don't blame Pearl Abyss for this.
Additionally, sieges in BDO were a thing that only a small percentage of players actually took part in - and thus only a small percentage of players in BDO were affected by them at all.
BDO sieges are probably more analogous tin castle sieges in Ashes, rather than all sieges. Castle sieges only affect a small portion of the player base, and having a castle is more a case of bragging rights than anything else.
Node sieges in Ashes though, they affect literally everyone. Every player in the game will be a citizen of a node, and those nodes can and will be sieged, greatly affecting the lives on any citizens should they lose.
Caravans in BDO are also not really comparable to Ashes caravans.
In BDO, caravans are essentially PvE content (unless you are not referring to the Desert Caravans - in which case I have no idea what you are talking about).
In Ashes, a caravan is where a player literally puts up to 10 times their inventory worth of materials (raw or processed, afaik) in to a vehicle and then attempted to move it from one node to another.
If someone attacks this caravan and wins, then they get those materials.
There are other caravan types, but this is the type that will be most common as virtually all materials used to make virtually all items will need to be moved via caravan.
Also, somewhat strangely, when you attack a caravan in BDO you can get flagged - whereas caravan PvP in Ashes is free from the corruption system.
Combined, these things all work together to make the siege and caravan system in Ashes far more important to every player in the game. Combined, they represent literally everything in the game - how you make money, how you upgrade gear, where in the world you live - even what content is available for you to participate in.
Even that mob spawning point that you want to PvP with someone over is dependent on sieges In order for that spot to spawn max level nodes, it needs to be in the ZoI of a metropolis, and if that metropolis is successfully sieged, those mobs won't spawn any more - at least not at that level.
Take the importance of PvP types in BDO and turn them upside down - that is Ashes.
You may not see it, but literally everyone else does, including the several hundred years of combined MMO development experience on staff at Intrepid - and literally everyone will take their experience over yours.
BDO player here.
The Caravan you're referring to in BDO is simply a wagon to carry your goods. You lose nothing of value except trading goods, which are almost of no value and importance. Wagons are commonly used in BDO to transport grinding loots, which will not be lost even if the wagon is destroyed. The loots are everything in BDO. Not losing the loots means there's no use attacking a player's wagon.
Sieges and GvG in BDO does not mean anything. It is simply a PvP event to boasts each others e-peens. You lose nothing if you lose the war, except your guild's position as the leader of the region. You can't do a lot anyway as a guild in BDO. Guilds that owns a node will only be able to collect taxes.
Comparing to AoC, where the world building itself is up to the players, Caravans and Sieges are very important. Sieging a node could destroy a node completely if successful. This is important for competing guilds if they own another node which cannot be leveled up due to another node already being at the same level as theirs. All the buildings and infrastructure, your efforts to build the node can be destroyed in a siege. Your houses as well. This is a real risk.
Caravans are used to transport actual goods and resources. Be it quest items, resources that you're transporting to level up your nodes or complete a building in your node, or your items that you want to sell at another place. Having your Caravan destroyed means it will drop a portion of the goods inside your caravan. You might lose the most valuable item in your caravan that you definitely do not want to lose.
These are what is meant by meaningful PvP. There are risks and rewards. There are consequences for every action you take or or do not take.
As a BDO player, I understand why you're very worried about farming mobs. To be honest with you, BDO is the only game that I have felt that way. Mobs are everything in BDO. Mobs drops the loot and golds that you need to upgrade your character.
But can you say it will be the same in AoC? Will it be like BDO where mobs are very important to the growth of the world, or your character? I highly doubt it. The game is not meant to be a grindfest, which is what BDO is.
The Corruption system should not deter any kinds of players. In fact, players are incentivised to flag for PvP to suffer only half of the death penalty. If you value your items (partial loot enabled) and do not want to accrue EXP debt at 100%, you should fight back. If not, you can try to run away. In the event that you die, the player will accumulate Corruption.
To remove Corruption, they cannot simply AFK. There is no expiring timer on the Corruption. They have to die and suffer the death penalties. So having their friends killing them, is not a good idea either. There might also be another way which is by questing but this is only under certain conditions.
EXP debt is not merely negative EXP. You will suffer from stats dampening and lowered gear proficiency/eficiency. All the more reason to fight back and win.
I'm a casual. I am not that interested in PvP. However, these systems makes me want to participate in the PvP just because it sounds fun and have an objective. And because of that, I can tell you that even a casual like me would more than likely to fight back. Carebear no more.
These are the expectations because that is how it is getting developed, the only thing it contradicts is what YOU want for the game and at the end of the day it isn't about what you want, it's what the devs want.
Damn, you don't say? Almost like the devs know what they're doing or something. Funny.
It would be, except damn near everything you post is absolute bs, baiting, and honestly not worth the time to even type...yet here we are.
Your fuckin data is literally based on games that are not part of the genre, automatically invalidated as there is no argument or support to one to be made there, especially since this is an MMORPG...and the numbers aren't in yet..so..no...nope. Nadda, nothing here.
Ashes of Creation is a PVX game, where guess what, PvP touches damn near everything in the game. Which you would know if you weren't so massively misinformed and constantly spouting off jabberwocky juice everywhere. Once again ASHES.IS.NOT.FOR.EVERYONE. If you won't like it don't play it, it's simple as that.
The only constant conflict is logic not being absorbed. Damn near everyone else that is keeping up with things knows and understands what things are planned. It's getting old just seeing your posts anymore. You're about as bad as the bear at this point.
I would say so, yes. If theres an increase in efficiency or speed of acquisition people will. Theres a reason why in old school runescape people actually use the chaos altar in deep wilderness (aka pvp land) to train prayer; Its the absolute fastest xp/hour despite the potential monetary loss.