I honestly don't care anymore, theory crafting is pretty much the same nonsense at this point.
We need tangible MMO mechanics to test.
Intrepid are less than three years in to development of the game.
Tabula Rasa took 7 years to develop, and failed because it wasn't ready in time.
We don't need mechanics to test. Not yet.
What we need to do is sit back and wait for Intrepid to make the game, and continue to have discussions between ourselves knowing full well that Intrepid know more about all of this than we do, and so aren't listening.
Knowing that the discussions and debates we have here are actually pointless in terms of how the game eventually turns out frees us up to just discuss and debate the game.
Saying that Corruption system deters ganking is invalid cause Intrepid Studios flagged everyone for pvp in the first place.
I don't understand this part. If we are talking about the open world and not battlegrounds, I thought everyone is flagged green by default - i.e. a non-combatant - and players decide whether to flag purple for PvP.
It means with the exclusion of guildies. and being part of same in game faction like thieves guild and same group any one can attack you. So the important thing to remember is 99 percent of server population can attack you. As far as number of people that can attack is way more than having factions like Horde and Alliance. So basically everywere you go you can be attacked. So seeing as there is twice the number of poeple to do the ganking there will be more ganking. In a faction based server like WoW ideally should be 50% blue 50% red so only half of server population could attack. It is basically a murder box as Steven put it you just get punished for ganking and victum also gets punished for not fighting back. And if you fight back and die still get ganked and no one gets punished. Does this make sense to anyone.
I do not know if this scenerio is accurrate but here goes. Guild A kills Guild B contending for boss kill Guild A is now red not in a position to kill boss debuffs being red. plus if Guild C is around Then guild C will kill Guild A currently Red and Guild _C will stay green and kill boss. Unless area around bosses will be pvp zones which in turn makes another problem camping.
In PvP Zones there is no curruption sytem other than the fact deaths take corruption off or make you green.So gank go pvp die go gank again.
So you will be exploring questing pveing knowing that basically anyone you meet might attack you and kill you. Nice freindly environment. So you could meet someone toon could act freindly but at any point in time he or she could attack you. This is actually worse than factions.
All of my posts are centered around one fact basically any one the server can attack you basically any time. Actually there are exceptions but statement 99% percent true. Yes I know their is a corruption system. Since when do corruption suystem stop people from ganking. You have to remember that to the people doing the gankin it is just pvp.. There is a ton of people that play pure pvp games. To them it is not ganking in those games it just pvp.
It is still mostly true right?. Any one in the game can attack you. Well the sense of danger and having people at edge of their seat through forced PvP comes at cost and that is some people just do not like getting ganked so will not play this game.
I could think of three other ways to do that given the time. But forcing people to pvp, and it is forcing cause if you do not fight back you get punished for it. So in fact every server is a pvp server NOT A PVX as so they claim. So it would be like taking all the In WoW pve servers flagging them all for pvp and then saying. Now any one can attack you but hey look we have curruption system with bounty hunters YaaaaY!!!!!!! And by the way corruptions system in truth is just to prevent cheapshots not ganking.
Actually the corruption system as stated and as presented would be a great fit or more suited to a PVP server so people could have some hope of enjoying pve. But unfortunatley The corruption systems as is has some holes in it and issues that need to be addressed even for PvP server. Read really long archived Corruption thread in archived posts.
UnknownsystemError said something about cherrry picking scenerios not clear if He was talking about me. My response to that is I would say it is more just one scenerio Just go read Archived Corruption thread in your case reread. In this post alone I have mentioned ganking go pvp gank again, scenerio about Guilds contending for boss kill, and Gettingg punished for not fighting back and most likely get punished for fighting back cause person that initiates combat usually has the advantage so you get punished by dying even though you fought back. and ganker gets a free gank.
If you read this post what is about this post that not true or accurate. I actually have not followed this game as close as I used to. So go ahead tell me were I am wrong. Actually I want to be wrong in this case.
Im a pvper PvP server with no corruptions system suites me just fine. But I believe this corruptions system is actually going to hurt this game by pushing away thousands of player that hate pvp. PvP and getting ganked is not for everyone.
All of my posts are centered around one fact basically any one the server can attack you basically any time.
The percentage of players who 'can' attack you is not meaningful without the 'probability' that they will.
Even with the players you mentioned who will gank no matter what, I'm willing to bet corruption will deter many others. The devs want to tune corruption to keep ganking low, so while I agree some of issues you mentioned can 'technically' happen, I don't see them as big issues.
If you read this post what is about this post that not true or accurate. I actually have not followed this game as close as I used to. So go ahead tell me were I am wrong. Actually I want to be wrong in this case..
It isn't so much wrong facts as it is wrong assumptions about facts.
As far as number of people that can attack is way more than having factions like Horde and Alliance. So basically everywere you go you can be attacked. So seeing as there is twice the number of poeple to do the ganking there will be more ganking. In a faction based server like WoW ideally should be 50% blue 50% red so only half of server population could attack.
The highlighted part makes no sense here.
WoW offers up no penalty on PvP servers for a Horde player attacking an Alliance player.
Ashes offers up a significant penalty for a player attacking another player.
I do not know if this scenerio is accurrate but here goes. Guild A kills Guild B contending for boss kill Guild A is now red not in a position to kill boss debuffs being red. plus if Guild C is around Then guild C will kill Guild A currently Red and Guild _C will stay green and kill boss. Unless area around bosses will be pvp zones which in turn makes another problem camping.
The highlighted part makes no sense here.
There is no reason that we know of why this guild couldn't attack the encounter.
In PvP Zones there is no curruption sytem other than the fact deaths take corruption off or make you green.So gank go pvp die go gank again.
The highlighted part makes no sense here.
Ashes doesn't have PvP zones. There are battlegrounds, which are essentially temporary areas in which the corruption mechanic is turned off. This happens around caravans, sieges and events that are parts of guild wars. The key thing with these is that they are not just an area a player can go to, they are fluid, and either moving or rare.
This means that your suggested tactic above simply can't work - and that is before we even get in to the discussion as to whether or not deaths under those circumstances still removes corruption.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think the implication is that once the guild goes red, the corruption debuff makes them to weak to be able to defeat the boss. I mean, maybe that could be true? I find the scenario unlikely though, that an entire group will turn from green to red (nobody fought back at all?) and then that was enough to go from being able to beat the boss to not being able to. Again, maybe that could happen, but it seems far-fetched.
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Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Please remember that there is no such thing as forced PVP. It is your choice whether to play the game or not knowing it has PVP. Therefore, it is not forced.
You want to play Ashes, you are choosing to play PVP.
I think the implication is that once the guild goes red, the corruption debuff makes them to weak to be able to defeat the boss. I mean, maybe that could be true? I find the scenario unlikely though, that an entire group will turn from green to red (nobody fought back at all?) and then that was enough to go from being able to beat the boss to not being able to. Again, maybe that could happen, but it seems far-fetched.
I can't see Intrepid setting the corruption penalty so high that a raid killing off a raid of the same size would cause the entire raid to have such a high corruption penalty that they can't take on the content any more.
The other issue I have with the scenario is a guild that is able to gather enough players to a boss encounter at short notice with no fast travel, but who then lets another guild attack and kill them without fighting back.
A guild like this won't hold on to players very long.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The corruption effect does not "wear off." Currently the only stated ways of removing corruption is through death or quest line. People will not be afking their corruption away in "safe zones." Also, not all corruption is removed with a single death. Stack it high enough and you are going to be in for a rough ride as you will need to die multiple times to clear it, and those first couple deaths have a chance of dropping gear. Last info is that we won't see the corruption system till Alpha 2, so expect most to murderhobo their way along during the Alpha 1.
There might actually be an exception to this, unless Steven changed his mind or didn't clarify with his quick answer. A discord question from 2017 asked the following:
@Steven 😇 Reduced time having the corrupt debuff in a military node?
unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That example gets thrown up every year when the annual corruption debacle gets heated. If you look at the whole conversation and not just take what fits the narrative, they were just throwing different ideas around. Steven has been known to make mistakes in terminology that have come back to haunt them later. The more important thing is that since then they have stated that it won't be able to be afked away a couple different times in interviews and livestreams. Also, found out last night that there had been an update to the corruption mechanics planned for testing and will most likely see them in A1 now. So in a couple months we will know for sure.
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HartwellMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What I'm hoping they go for is corruption gets applied at a reduced rate in military nodes. Would probably be more reasonable for what they're trying to achieve.
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unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited February 2020
That was my takeaway from it too.
What those in the tryhard chestthumper camp don't seem to get it that they are not going to let them run roughshod over the community. If Intrepid took any lesson from Amazon's 180, it is that a small group of dedicated twats can ruin your game when your griefing penalty system is weaksauce. Ashes is going to need to put asses in seats to make money, you can "snowflake" and "carebear" all you like, but niche gaming won't pay Bacon's kids healthcare. People will play for the PVX, but if they fail at making sure any one of their "pillars" is strong enough, the whole thing will topple.
My takeaway from that was that he was referring to the quest mechanic that reduces corruption.
I know that mechanic started off as being intended for the military node, but may be (or have been) moved.
Steven often seems to reword or re-frame questions before answering them, sometimes out loud, sometimes you just see him going over it in his head. Assuming at the time a quest for reducing corruption was planned for military nodes, the above question could easily be reworded in someones mind as "will players in military nodes have reduced corruption compared to players in other nodes", to which the simple, fast to type answer would be "yes".
Reduced corruption gain in a military node wouldn't be a bad mechanic to have imo, it just wasn't what I took away from that exchange the first time I read it.
Without some number it's useless to complain and argue about the effectiveness of the system...
The amount of resource that we lose once killed and the distance from our respawn place will also determine if there will be lots of "free kill"
And the efforts needed from a corrupted player to get rid of it will also influence the choose of killing some one that not defend himself.
If a lvl 50 kill 3 player and get corrupted for it and it make him enable to kill a lvl 20 ... you won't see it happen often.
Plus if we need a day to get rid of one single kill ect
We don't know much on the number that will be place behind what we currently know.
Personally if I'm gathering and some one try to kill me , my choice between fight back and letting me be killed will depends if I'll lose 30% of my resource of 10%
Fighting back will allow me to keep 15% or 5%
For 5% I'll prefer see if my opponent really want to get corrupted, if so I have a fairly good fast travel ^^
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There might actually be an exception to this, unless Steven changed his mind or didn't clarify with his quick answer. A discord question from 2017 asked the following:
@Steven 😇 Reduced time having the corrupt debuff in a military node?
Because this is steven responding to someone, I'm very skeptical to believe this. I could see steven meaning that there is a reduced effect for corruption in military nodes but not a reduced debuff time. There is a debuff associated with corruption but I don't think we have ever heard corruption itself being called a debuff. It's been said multiple times the only way to lose corruption is either death or a possible religious quest.
Also, for the life of me, I can't find this on the discord. what's the timestamp on this?
Corrupttion actually debuffs your stats not just turns you red.
Well if one guild attacks another guild while killing a boss doubt they will fight back cuase resources (hp mana) not at full capacity so probably wipe any ways . so guess what your guild is red so red means debuffed so would have to go kill boss red. But if another guild is there that is green they will kill red guild and kill boss. Guess If you Are good enough you could kill boss red (debuffed) Have fun doing that. So what do you guys think about killingg raid boss red or debuffed. Fun Fun Fun. This could be fixed.
PvP zones was used instead of all the actuall names of the zones were everyone is purple. And used to show that I could just go to zone were corruptions system is not place. Matter of fact you could replace PvP zone with Zone with no corruption system. Point is go red go to Zone were no corruption system is Every one is purple pvp then go green again then gank again. So you die while red debuffed. while pvping in a Zone with no corrption system in place and if I just happen to kill some one well no worries no more stacks of red cause You are in a zone wiht no corruption system in place. (same thing as a pvp zone but yes technically the whole world is a pvp zone so what). So I go red and debuffed just go try to kill some one in Zone were there is not corruptions system. Eventually will die if I just happen to kill some one in A Zone were there not corruption system then well the is no Corruption System then will not get any more stacks of Red and pretty cool to kill purple while red.
What is so unusual about dying in A Zone with no Corruption system in place while debuffed ( red) While pvping if you are a pvper to go green. So it is just more of challenge kill another toon so what. Then go gank again of course.
So there you have it.
As far having twice the number of people able to gank you but it will actually wont happen. Well that is assuming that the corruptions system will actuall work as is. Really you are the one assuming that people will not gank becausy you go red. When Reds are needed to make Bounty Hunter system work in the first place . Wake Up there has to be ganking if not IS would make sure that there would be ganking so bounty hunter system would work. Are you guys getting this. Easy way for no ganking is 1000 gold fine if no gold then all your gear breaks and has to be repaired so basically naked out in the wild. That guarantees no ganking. But hey no ganking no Corruption system Getting killed to a pvper means nothing, but to someone that dislikes the idea of beeing ganked pve person well not so good. But now looking back at it does seem a little tiny bit of an exagerration but not much hardly nothing.
Bounty hunter vs red basically a gank. What is fair about bounty hunter that has special tools to kill a debuffed red. In fact this is a if you gank you get ganked system so actually doubles number of ganks. But he ganked someone so well deserved gank still a gank.
Persoanlly think the idea of being red then killing a bounty huntter would be pretty cool personal pvp achievement. But wait have to be red first so..... have to gank. Hopefully stay red or not killed until bounty hunter comes around and if bounty hunter kills me well have to start all over again and gank again.
Well it worked well in this game. Guessing most of the poeple in that game did not mind getting ganked ounce in while or had pvp mind set. PvP community is So huge Ashes of Creation Could launch. get 1 million or 2 million active players mostly people that are pvp minded and not notice all the PVE persons that do not play this game becuase do not like getting ganked. That is really my whole point. Corruption does nothing for PVE community.
But hey you know what? I have been on servers where it is extremely difficult to find people to do competative pvp. Corruption system will naturally attract pvpers and repel people that cannot handle both pvp and pve at the same time or PVX so they will just go play in some pve server just in another game. So I wll sitting pretty when this game luanches cause I love PVP.
Just to be clear getting ganked is a deal breaker for a lot of people does not matter if you have this corruption system.,
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think the implication is that once the guild goes red, the corruption debuff makes them to weak to be able to defeat the boss. I mean, maybe that could be true? I find the scenario unlikely though, that an entire group will turn from green to red (nobody fought back at all?) and then that was enough to go from being able to beat the boss to not being able to. Again, maybe that could happen, but it seems far-fetched.
I can't see Intrepid setting the corruption penalty so high that a raid killing off a raid of the same size would cause the entire raid to have such a high corruption penalty that they can't take on the content any more.
The other issue I have with the scenario is a guild that is able to gather enough players to a boss encounter at short notice with no fast travel, but who then lets another guild attack and kill them without fighting back.
A guild like this won't hold on to players very long.
Like I said, very far-fetched scenario and I doubt it would ever happen even if it technically could. (And we don’t know enough yet to know if it could.)
Well if one guild attacks another guild while killing a boss doubt they will fight back cuase resources (hp mana) not at full capacity so probably wipe any wat . so guess what your guild is red so red means debuffed so would have to go kill boss red. But if another guild is there that is green they will kill red guild and kill boss. Guess If you Are good enough you could kill goss red (debuffed) Have fun doing that. So what do you guys think about kill raid boss red or debuffed. Fun Fun Fun. This could be fixed.
One guild ganked another guild and got a corruption penalty for it. That's what supposed to happen. You seem to argue here that corruption penalties will affect the PvP guild and make them think twice about doing something while corrupted, but in other places you argue that PvP/gankers won't care about corruption penalties. You can't have it both ways. This scenario isn't a problem; that guild is be penalised for ganking the first guild.
PvP zones was used instead of all the actuall names of the zones were everyone is purple. And used to show that I could just go to zone were corruptions system is not place.
AFAIK these types of zones don't exist in AoC. You need to find a battleground, which could take some time.
This is like saying players don't care about their gear, which is not really believable. My bet is the more corrupt you are the more PvPers will stop ganking because the penalty for death does mean something - the risk of losing their gear and weapons means something. And at the highest level of corruption you'll have a handful of extreme gankers who don't care, even if they need to keep backup weapons and gear or spend time getting new weapons or gear. Even in these extreme cases, those players are spending extra time keeping stocked with gear, which takes away from time they could be ganking, which reduces the gank rate overall anyway.
Corrupttion actually debuffs your stats not just turns you red.
Well if one guild attacks another guild while killing a boss doubt they will fight back cuase resources (hp mana) not at full capacity so probably wipe any ways . so guess what your guild is red so red means debuffed so would have to go kill boss red. But if another guild is there that is green they will kill red guild and kill boss. Guess If you Are good enough you could kill boss red (debuffed) Have fun doing that. So what do you guys think about killingg raid boss red or debuffed. Fun Fun Fun. This could be fixed.
I think the issue here is that we all think you are talking about one specific type of content, but you seem unaware that what you are talking about is a specific type of content.
What you are talking about, whether you know it or not, is contested raid content. Half of the challenge of this content is in killing off other guilds/raids that are also trying to kill this content, and then getting the kill for yourself.
The other guilds present are not a hindrance to the content, they ARE the content.
As long as the debuff from corruption has no negative effects in PvE content (as has been stated as being the case by Steven) then there is no reason at all to not take on the encounter if you have the debuff, or even if you are not at full HP/mana - as long as your healers have enough mana then you have no reason to not begin attacking.
So again, what you are talking about here is not an issue or poor design with the corruption system, what you are describing is simply a type of content. As long as it is not the only type of raid content, it is a very enjoyable and rewarding type of content at that.
PvP zones was used instead of all the actuall names of the zones were everyone is purple. And used to show that I could just go to zone were corruptions system is not place. Matter of fact you could replace PvP zone with Zone with no corruption system. Point is go red go to Zone were no corruption system is Every one is purple pvp then go green again then gank again. So you die while red debuffed. while pvping in a Zone with no corrption system in place and if I just happen to kill some one well no worries no more stacks of red cause You are in a zone wiht no corruption system in place. (same thing as a pvp zone but yes technically the whole world is a pvp zone so what). So I go red and debuffed just go try to kill some one in Zone were there is not corruptions system. Eventually will die if I just happen to kill some one in A Zone were there not corruption system then well the is no Corruption System then will not get any more stacks of Red and pretty cool to kill purple while red.
What is so unusual about dying in A Zone with no Corruption system in place while debuffed ( red) While pvping if you are a pvper to go green. So it is just more of challenge kill another toon so what. Then go gank again of course.
So there you have it.
Again, this kind of thing does not exist in Ashes.
There are no zones like this.
If there happens to be a siege, the area around that may meet some of the requirements above, but sieges are rare.
If there is a passing caravan, the area around that may meet some of the requirements above, but caravans move and can't be predicted - and thus can't be relied upon for this to happen.
Also, we have no reason at all to assume that a death in one of these areas will still remove corruption, it is perfectly likely that you will not lose corruption if killed in a situation where corruption is turned off - as I said earlier.
This entire scenario you have constructed is something that would be so rare (needs to be performed near a siege that neither the attacker nor victim want to be a part of), or around something mostly unpredictable (player caravans).
On top of needing to rely on one of those two unreliable scenarios, we also need to assume that you still lose corruption at a time when corruption is turned off - and we have literally no reason at all to assume that will be the case at this stage.
What I'm saying is that you are making an assumption on top of another assumption, and are using that double assumption to say that the corruption system won't work.
As far having twice the number of people able to gank you but it will actually wont happen. Well that is assuming that the corruptions system will actuall work as is. Really you are the one assuming that people will not gank becausy you go red. When Reds are needed to make Bounty Hunter system work in the first place . Wake Up there has to be ganking if not IS would make sure that there would be ganking so bounty hunter system would work. Are you guys getting this. Easy way for no ganking is 1000 gold fine if no gold then all your gear breaks and has to be repaired so basically naked out in the wild. That guarantees no ganking. But hey no ganking no Corruption system Getting killed to a pvper means nothing, but to someone that dislikes the idea of beeing ganked pve person well not so good. But now looking back at it does seem a little tiny bit of an exagerration but not much hardly nothing.
I've personally said many times on these forums that there will be people that gain corruption.
That absolutely will be a fact of life in Ashes, and if you don't want that to happen to you, ever, then Ashes simply is not the game for you.
Ask Intrepid, they will tell you the same thing - if you absolutely don't want to be attacked and killed by another player, don't give them your money.
No one is arguing this point, the argument is in how often such things will happen, and how often one sided PvP encounters will happen.
Bounty hunter vs red basically a gank. What is fair about bounty hunter that has special tools to kill a debuffed red. In fact this is a if you gank you get ganked system so actually doubles number of ganks. But he ganked someone so well deserved gank still a gank.
None of this makes any sense.
"Gank" is best defined (in the realm of MMO's) as using underhanded means to kill another player. Not all PvP kills are ganks, in fact, most of them are not.
If you gain corruption by killing a green player, a bounty hunter can't then come and gank you, because you have purposefully lit a giant beacon telling that bounty hunter where you are, and that they can come and kill you.
Persoanlly think the idea of being red then killing a bounty huntter would be pretty cool personal pvp achievement. But wait have to be red first so..... have to gank. Hopefully stay red or not killed until bounty hunter comes around and if bounty hunter kills me well have to start all over again and gank again.
Sounds like interesting content.
Well it worked well in this game. Guessing most of the poeple in that game did not mind getting ganked ounce in while or had pvp mind set. PvP community is So huge Ashes of Creation Could launch. get 1 million or 2 million active players mostly people that are pvp minded and not notice all the PVE persons that do not play this game becuase do not like getting ganked. That is really my whole point. Corruption does nothing for PVE community.
But hey you know what? I have been on servers where it is extremely difficult to find people to do competative pvp. Corruption system will naturally attract pvpers and repel people that cannot handle both pvp and pve at the same time or PVX so they will just go play in some pve server just in another game. So I wll sitting pretty when this game luanches cause I love PVP.
Just to be clear getting ganked is a deal breaker for a lot of people does not matter if you have this corruption system.,
Again, if you are that against being killed in PvP, Ashes is not the game for you.
There is no discussion on this - as PvP in this manner is a key aspect of Ashes. It isn't something that will change - so if you aren't ok with it then you go play something else.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you die with corruption, it doesn't matter if you are in a pvp zone or not, you will have the corrupted death penality with increased drops, negative exp, and potential item dropped. You still have a suffer a death penalty on a battlefield.
Just to be clear getting ganked is a deal breaker for a lot of people does not matter if you have this corruption system.,
There is another side to this that you are ignoring. Yes, the open pvp will cause some to turn away but it will also cause others to come. I know open pvp is one of the big reasons why I will be playing ashes over other games. It's one of the reasons why I'm backing this game over other projects like pantheon. It's also not like this is new, it was advertised with this in the beginning. Corruption's penalities will also cause some pvpers to leave.
@consultant first as been said corruption don't apply on PvE content, and it's unlikely that 2 group that get through a whole dungeon take risk to die or lose some of them just before the boss. They will prefer a others way to fix the situation unless there is 1h respawn for the boss ...
For the fact that the bounty system need red player , as a crafter and gatherer player in the current economic systems of AoC I may choose to gank gatherer to get a hand on those rare resources that he got just before me and I need it to.
Depending on the death penalty and loss resource ( less that 30% i guess) a gatherer that is gank may think over those 15%( or less) that differed between fighting back or not.
Personally depending of the exact % if I'm gank when I'm gathering I may choose to see if my opponent really want to be Corrupted or if he just hope i fight back and get 15% free.
So once again it's to soon to complain over a system while we don't have test it yet.
I'm 100% sure there will be modifications post Alpha 1 on the number behind the system.
Only this % resource drop after death may influence gank decision, 30% and ganker may not will to risk 90% of there stuff on the way home ( yes 3 time green penalty)
But make it at 10% and as a gatherer I may not care over those 5% and just take the fast travel to my respawn area for it ( and make this ganker a corrupted)
That is a load of crap. A fight can take quite a bit out of you. Go play a warrior in vanilla wow, and you will see how stupid your comment is. Often you agro more than one mob.
I remember back when i played TBC. I can't count how many times i was attack by a rogue. while fighting a mob or just after. Or how many times i was fighting a mob and then i see i have gotten some curses dots. Boom i'm fear and got a pet attacking me. When fear is gone i'm ½ dead. How do you expect to prepare for this.
I think the PvP in this game will ruin it for me. I hate being forced into it. From what i at times hear, i think the game will suck partly because of it
And you decided to keep going into that area alone? The point that you decided to call stupid with clearly no idea how the system works, is oh that rogue attacks you while you are otherwise engaged. You let him kill you, he becomes corrupted, loses stats, and becomes in danger of dropping gear. This happens enough, and you should have no problem killing him, or having a group of fellow citizens hop in to make it even easier. He gets red enough and that puts him in the sight of bounty hunters and other negatives. WoW had zero reprecussion for ganking till they put in a half assed measure during the honor system that just ended up giving griefers more fuel.
Looks like some of you guys did not finish reading my posts just kind of got the jist of it and posted on it.
I Cleary stated that I love pvp and clearly stated that this system will attract pvpers and repel pvers and Ashes of Creation might not even notice cause of trade off.. Thing is game could Easily be designed to not repel pvers. So really do not know what that if you do not like it go play some thing else is about.
Let me put it to you another way in WoW there were PvP servers and PVE servers So Ashes of Creaton is just going get all the PvP servers push away all the PVE servers. Does this sound smart. So instead of ten million subscribers it is going to be five million subscribers. That is my problem whith this whole system. It going to cost Ashes of creations millions. The amount of money that a company has to spend on content is a huge factor. I want this game to Have the money to do the things that they envision with it and be on par wiht other huge MMO companies.
If you do like it go play somethign else That what is happened to WoW they did not like it so went somewere els. That basically the whole problem. Too many People will not like it and go play some else.
People are very apt to go play something else if they do like it. Statement is kind of redundant if you ask me.
By the way if you gank one person then another person Has to come along and kill you that is two ganks instead of one. But if it was a fine or some other form of punishment only one gank and possibly more effective. Do you like to gank....be a bounty hunter you will get plenty of unfair pvp in your favor. So really the real gankers in the game are going to be the bounty hunters they are going to be doing it more than anyone else.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you do like it go play somethign else That what is happened to WoW they did not like it so went somewere els. That basically the whole problem. Too many People will not like it and go play some else.
You don't know this and are only assuming but I want to take this in another direction.
What about fast travel, dungeon finder, and LFR. There will probably be people who don't play because we don't have these conveniences. Does that mean Ashes needs fast travel, dungeon finder, and LFR?
What about the death penalty? you lose resources, durability, and gain negative exp on death. If your items break, you will need to buy resources to get it fixed. This increased penalty might drive some away, does that mean ashes should scrap the death penalty?
I want this game to Have the money to do the things that they envision with it and be on par wiht other huge MMO companies.
A core part of what they envision is a dynamic world where PvP and PvE systems are integrated. So separate PvP and PvE servers can't be a solution to help financially support their vision.
Maybe the current design will make them enough money to the all things they want, and this won't even be an issue. Who knows.
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We need tangible MMO mechanics to test.
Tabula Rasa took 7 years to develop, and failed because it wasn't ready in time.
We don't need mechanics to test. Not yet.
What we need to do is sit back and wait for Intrepid to make the game, and continue to have discussions between ourselves knowing full well that Intrepid know more about all of this than we do, and so aren't listening.
Knowing that the discussions and debates we have here are actually pointless in terms of how the game eventually turns out frees us up to just discuss and debate the game.
*laughs in rogue* *cast Vanish*
It means with the exclusion of guildies. and being part of same in game faction like thieves guild and same group any one can attack you. So the important thing to remember is 99 percent of server population can attack you. As far as number of people that can attack is way more than having factions like Horde and Alliance. So basically everywere you go you can be attacked. So seeing as there is twice the number of poeple to do the ganking there will be more ganking. In a faction based server like WoW ideally should be 50% blue 50% red so only half of server population could attack. It is basically a murder box as Steven put it you just get punished for ganking and victum also gets punished for not fighting back. And if you fight back and die still get ganked and no one gets punished. Does this make sense to anyone.
I do not know if this scenerio is accurrate but here goes. Guild A kills Guild B contending for boss kill Guild A is now red not in a position to kill boss debuffs being red. plus if Guild C is around Then guild C will kill Guild A currently Red and Guild _C will stay green and kill boss. Unless area around bosses will be pvp zones which in turn makes another problem camping.
In PvP Zones there is no curruption sytem other than the fact deaths take corruption off or make you green.So gank go pvp die go gank again.
So you will be exploring questing pveing knowing that basically anyone you meet might attack you and kill you. Nice freindly environment. So you could meet someone toon could act freindly but at any point in time he or she could attack you. This is actually worse than factions.
All of my posts are centered around one fact basically any one the server can attack you basically any time. Actually there are exceptions but statement 99% percent true. Yes I know their is a corruption system. Since when do corruption suystem stop people from ganking. You have to remember that to the people doing the gankin it is just pvp.. There is a ton of people that play pure pvp games. To them it is not ganking in those games it just pvp.
It is still mostly true right?. Any one in the game can attack you. Well the sense of danger and having people at edge of their seat through forced PvP comes at cost and that is some people just do not like getting ganked so will not play this game.
I could think of three other ways to do that given the time. But forcing people to pvp, and it is forcing cause if you do not fight back you get punished for it. So in fact every server is a pvp server NOT A PVX as so they claim. So it would be like taking all the In WoW pve servers flagging them all for pvp and then saying. Now any one can attack you but hey look we have curruption system with bounty hunters YaaaaY!!!!!!! And by the way corruptions system in truth is just to prevent cheapshots not ganking.
Actually the corruption system as stated and as presented would be a great fit or more suited to a PVP server so people could have some hope of enjoying pve. But unfortunatley The corruption systems as is has some holes in it and issues that need to be addressed even for PvP server. Read really long archived Corruption thread in archived posts.
UnknownsystemError said something about cherrry picking scenerios not clear if He was talking about me. My response to that is I would say it is more just one scenerio Just go read Archived Corruption thread in your case reread. In this post alone I have mentioned ganking go pvp gank again, scenerio about Guilds contending for boss kill, and Gettingg punished for not fighting back and most likely get punished for fighting back cause person that initiates combat usually has the advantage so you get punished by dying even though you fought back. and ganker gets a free gank.
If you read this post what is about this post that not true or accurate. I actually have not followed this game as close as I used to. So go ahead tell me were I am wrong. Actually I want to be wrong in this case.
Im a pvper PvP server with no corruptions system suites me just fine. But I believe this corruptions system is actually going to hurt this game by pushing away thousands of player that hate pvp. PvP and getting ganked is not for everyone.
The percentage of players who 'can' attack you is not meaningful without the 'probability' that they will.
Even with the players you mentioned who will gank no matter what, I'm willing to bet corruption will deter many others. The devs want to tune corruption to keep ganking low, so while I agree some of issues you mentioned can 'technically' happen, I don't see them as big issues.
Although sometimes it is wrong facts. The highlighted part makes no sense here.
WoW offers up no penalty on PvP servers for a Horde player attacking an Alliance player.
Ashes offers up a significant penalty for a player attacking another player. The highlighted part makes no sense here.
There is no reason that we know of why this guild couldn't attack the encounter.
The highlighted part makes no sense here.
Ashes doesn't have PvP zones. There are battlegrounds, which are essentially temporary areas in which the corruption mechanic is turned off. This happens around caravans, sieges and events that are parts of guild wars. The key thing with these is that they are not just an area a player can go to, they are fluid, and either moving or rare.
This means that your suggested tactic above simply can't work - and that is before we even get in to the discussion as to whether or not deaths under those circumstances still removes corruption.
You want to play Ashes, you are choosing to play PVP.
The other issue I have with the scenario is a guild that is able to gather enough players to a boss encounter at short notice with no fast travel, but who then lets another guild attack and kill them without fighting back.
A guild like this won't hold on to players very long.
What those in the tryhard chestthumper camp don't seem to get it that they are not going to let them run roughshod over the community. If Intrepid took any lesson from Amazon's 180, it is that a small group of dedicated twats can ruin your game when your griefing penalty system is weaksauce. Ashes is going to need to put asses in seats to make money, you can "snowflake" and "carebear" all you like, but niche gaming won't pay Bacon's kids healthcare. People will play for the PVX, but if they fail at making sure any one of their "pillars" is strong enough, the whole thing will topple.
I know that mechanic started off as being intended for the military node, but may be (or have been) moved.
Steven often seems to reword or re-frame questions before answering them, sometimes out loud, sometimes you just see him going over it in his head. Assuming at the time a quest for reducing corruption was planned for military nodes, the above question could easily be reworded in someones mind as "will players in military nodes have reduced corruption compared to players in other nodes", to which the simple, fast to type answer would be "yes".
Reduced corruption gain in a military node wouldn't be a bad mechanic to have imo, it just wasn't what I took away from that exchange the first time I read it.
The amount of resource that we lose once killed and the distance from our respawn place will also determine if there will be lots of "free kill"
And the efforts needed from a corrupted player to get rid of it will also influence the choose of killing some one that not defend himself.
If a lvl 50 kill 3 player and get corrupted for it and it make him enable to kill a lvl 20 ... you won't see it happen often.
Plus if we need a day to get rid of one single kill ect
We don't know much on the number that will be place behind what we currently know.
Personally if I'm gathering and some one try to kill me , my choice between fight back and letting me be killed will depends if I'll lose 30% of my resource of 10%
Fighting back will allow me to keep 15% or 5%
For 5% I'll prefer see if my opponent really want to get corrupted, if so I have a fairly good fast travel ^^
Also, for the life of me, I can't find this on the discord. what's the timestamp on this?
Well if one guild attacks another guild while killing a boss doubt they will fight back cuase resources (hp mana) not at full capacity so probably wipe any ways . so guess what your guild is red so red means debuffed so would have to go kill boss red. But if another guild is there that is green they will kill red guild and kill boss. Guess If you Are good enough you could kill boss red (debuffed) Have fun doing that. So what do you guys think about killingg raid boss red or debuffed. Fun Fun Fun. This could be fixed.
PvP zones was used instead of all the actuall names of the zones were everyone is purple. And used to show that I could just go to zone were corruptions system is not place. Matter of fact you could replace PvP zone with Zone with no corruption system. Point is go red go to Zone were no corruption system is Every one is purple pvp then go green again then gank again. So you die while red debuffed. while pvping in a Zone with no corrption system in place and if I just happen to kill some one well no worries no more stacks of red cause You are in a zone wiht no corruption system in place. (same thing as a pvp zone but yes technically the whole world is a pvp zone so what). So I go red and debuffed just go try to kill some one in Zone were there is not corruptions system. Eventually will die if I just happen to kill some one in A Zone were there not corruption system then well the is no Corruption System then will not get any more stacks of Red and pretty cool to kill purple while red.
What is so unusual about dying in A Zone with no Corruption system in place while debuffed ( red) While pvping if you are a pvper to go green. So it is just more of challenge kill another toon so what. Then go gank again of course.
So there you have it.
As far having twice the number of people able to gank you but it will actually wont happen. Well that is assuming that the corruptions system will actuall work as is. Really you are the one assuming that people will not gank becausy you go red. When Reds are needed to make Bounty Hunter system work in the first place . Wake Up there has to be ganking if not IS would make sure that there would be ganking so bounty hunter system would work. Are you guys getting this. Easy way for no ganking is 1000 gold fine if no gold then all your gear breaks and has to be repaired so basically naked out in the wild. That guarantees no ganking. But hey no ganking no Corruption system Getting killed to a pvper means nothing, but to someone that dislikes the idea of beeing ganked pve person well not so good. But now looking back at it does seem a little tiny bit of an exagerration but not much hardly nothing.
Bounty hunter vs red basically a gank. What is fair about bounty hunter that has special tools to kill a debuffed red. In fact this is a if you gank you get ganked system so actually doubles number of ganks. But he ganked someone so well deserved gank still a gank.
Persoanlly think the idea of being red then killing a bounty huntter would be pretty cool personal pvp achievement. But wait have to be red first so..... have to gank. Hopefully stay red or not killed until bounty hunter comes around and if bounty hunter kills me well have to start all over again and gank again.
Well it worked well in this game. Guessing most of the poeple in that game did not mind getting ganked ounce in while or had pvp mind set. PvP community is So huge Ashes of Creation Could launch. get 1 million or 2 million active players mostly people that are pvp minded and not notice all the PVE persons that do not play this game becuase do not like getting ganked. That is really my whole point. Corruption does nothing for PVE community.
But hey you know what? I have been on servers where it is extremely difficult to find people to do competative pvp. Corruption system will naturally attract pvpers and repel people that cannot handle both pvp and pve at the same time or PVX so they will just go play in some pve server just in another game. So I wll sitting pretty when this game luanches cause I love PVP.
Just to be clear getting ganked is a deal breaker for a lot of people does not matter if you have this corruption system.,
One guild ganked another guild and got a corruption penalty for it. That's what supposed to happen. You seem to argue here that corruption penalties will affect the PvP guild and make them think twice about doing something while corrupted, but in other places you argue that PvP/gankers won't care about corruption penalties. You can't have it both ways. This scenario isn't a problem; that guild is be penalised for ganking the first guild.
AFAIK these types of zones don't exist in AoC. You need to find a battleground, which could take some time.
This is like saying players don't care about their gear, which is not really believable. My bet is the more corrupt you are the more PvPers will stop ganking because the penalty for death does mean something - the risk of losing their gear and weapons means something. And at the highest level of corruption you'll have a handful of extreme gankers who don't care, even if they need to keep backup weapons and gear or spend time getting new weapons or gear. Even in these extreme cases, those players are spending extra time keeping stocked with gear, which takes away from time they could be ganking, which reduces the gank rate overall anyway.
What you are talking about, whether you know it or not, is contested raid content. Half of the challenge of this content is in killing off other guilds/raids that are also trying to kill this content, and then getting the kill for yourself.
The other guilds present are not a hindrance to the content, they ARE the content.
As long as the debuff from corruption has no negative effects in PvE content (as has been stated as being the case by Steven) then there is no reason at all to not take on the encounter if you have the debuff, or even if you are not at full HP/mana - as long as your healers have enough mana then you have no reason to not begin attacking.
So again, what you are talking about here is not an issue or poor design with the corruption system, what you are describing is simply a type of content. As long as it is not the only type of raid content, it is a very enjoyable and rewarding type of content at that. Again, this kind of thing does not exist in Ashes.
There are no zones like this.
If there happens to be a siege, the area around that may meet some of the requirements above, but sieges are rare.
If there is a passing caravan, the area around that may meet some of the requirements above, but caravans move and can't be predicted - and thus can't be relied upon for this to happen.
Also, we have no reason at all to assume that a death in one of these areas will still remove corruption, it is perfectly likely that you will not lose corruption if killed in a situation where corruption is turned off - as I said earlier.
This entire scenario you have constructed is something that would be so rare (needs to be performed near a siege that neither the attacker nor victim want to be a part of), or around something mostly unpredictable (player caravans).
On top of needing to rely on one of those two unreliable scenarios, we also need to assume that you still lose corruption at a time when corruption is turned off - and we have literally no reason at all to assume that will be the case at this stage.
What I'm saying is that you are making an assumption on top of another assumption, and are using that double assumption to say that the corruption system won't work. I've personally said many times on these forums that there will be people that gain corruption.
That absolutely will be a fact of life in Ashes, and if you don't want that to happen to you, ever, then Ashes simply is not the game for you.
Ask Intrepid, they will tell you the same thing - if you absolutely don't want to be attacked and killed by another player, don't give them your money.
No one is arguing this point, the argument is in how often such things will happen, and how often one sided PvP encounters will happen. None of this makes any sense.
"Gank" is best defined (in the realm of MMO's) as using underhanded means to kill another player. Not all PvP kills are ganks, in fact, most of them are not.
If you gain corruption by killing a green player, a bounty hunter can't then come and gank you, because you have purposefully lit a giant beacon telling that bounty hunter where you are, and that they can come and kill you. Sounds like interesting content. Again, if you are that against being killed in PvP, Ashes is not the game for you.
There is no discussion on this - as PvP in this manner is a key aspect of Ashes. It isn't something that will change - so if you aren't ok with it then you go play something else.
There is another side to this that you are ignoring. Yes, the open pvp will cause some to turn away but it will also cause others to come. I know open pvp is one of the big reasons why I will be playing ashes over other games. It's one of the reasons why I'm backing this game over other projects like pantheon. It's also not like this is new, it was advertised with this in the beginning. Corruption's penalities will also cause some pvpers to leave.
This part though, I don't agree with.
I doubt there would be a single MMO player that would leave Ashes because of the corruption penalties.
There may be some BR, FPS or MOBA players that don't play because of it, but I don't consider those players to be PvP'ers.
For the fact that the bounty system need red player , as a crafter and gatherer player in the current economic systems of AoC I may choose to gank gatherer to get a hand on those rare resources that he got just before me and I need it to.
Depending on the death penalty and loss resource ( less that 30% i guess) a gatherer that is gank may think over those 15%( or less) that differed between fighting back or not.
Personally depending of the exact % if I'm gank when I'm gathering I may choose to see if my opponent really want to be Corrupted or if he just hope i fight back and get 15% free.
So once again it's to soon to complain over a system while we don't have test it yet.
I'm 100% sure there will be modifications post Alpha 1 on the number behind the system.
Only this % resource drop after death may influence gank decision, 30% and ganker may not will to risk 90% of there stuff on the way home ( yes 3 time green penalty)
But make it at 10% and as a gatherer I may not care over those 5% and just take the fast travel to my respawn area for it ( and make this ganker a corrupted)
To soon to complain.
And you decided to keep going into that area alone? The point that you decided to call stupid with clearly no idea how the system works, is oh that rogue attacks you while you are otherwise engaged. You let him kill you, he becomes corrupted, loses stats, and becomes in danger of dropping gear. This happens enough, and you should have no problem killing him, or having a group of fellow citizens hop in to make it even easier. He gets red enough and that puts him in the sight of bounty hunters and other negatives. WoW had zero reprecussion for ganking till they put in a half assed measure during the honor system that just ended up giving griefers more fuel.
I Cleary stated that I love pvp and clearly stated that this system will attract pvpers and repel pvers and Ashes of Creation might not even notice cause of trade off.. Thing is game could Easily be designed to not repel pvers. So really do not know what that if you do not like it go play some thing else is about.
Let me put it to you another way in WoW there were PvP servers and PVE servers So Ashes of Creaton is just going get all the PvP servers push away all the PVE servers. Does this sound smart. So instead of ten million subscribers it is going to be five million subscribers. That is my problem whith this whole system. It going to cost Ashes of creations millions. The amount of money that a company has to spend on content is a huge factor. I want this game to Have the money to do the things that they envision with it and be on par wiht other huge MMO companies.
If you do like it go play somethign else That what is happened to WoW they did not like it so went somewere els. That basically the whole problem. Too many People will not like it and go play some else.
People are very apt to go play something else if they do like it. Statement is kind of redundant if you ask me.
By the way if you gank one person then another person Has to come along and kill you that is two ganks instead of one. But if it was a fine or some other form of punishment only one gank and possibly more effective. Do you like to gank....be a bounty hunter you will get plenty of unfair pvp in your favor. So really the real gankers in the game are going to be the bounty hunters they are going to be doing it more than anyone else.
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What about fast travel, dungeon finder, and LFR. There will probably be people who don't play because we don't have these conveniences. Does that mean Ashes needs fast travel, dungeon finder, and LFR?
What about the death penalty? you lose resources, durability, and gain negative exp on death. If your items break, you will need to buy resources to get it fixed. This increased penalty might drive some away, does that mean ashes should scrap the death penalty?
You can't "gank" someone that says "here I am, come get me".
A core part of what they envision is a dynamic world where PvP and PvE systems are integrated. So separate PvP and PvE servers can't be a solution to help financially support their vision.
Maybe the current design will make them enough money to the all things they want, and this won't even be an issue. Who knows.
I means bh ganking random players and chasing corrupted player will being chased by others bh ?