I think all this discussion is kind of pointless as there is no efficient way to prevent people from multiboxing on multiple machines. You can't isolate people who have multiple gamers in one household.
The simple answer is make the game systems work in a manner that the time spent multiboxing is equally or less profitable than other ways you spend your time playing the game. Make it so that the freehold system isn't just like printing free money(WoW Garrison style).
This makes it so those who enjoy playing the game in this multitasking, micro economic way, can do so. While others can enjoy farming efficiently on one character, or grouping up with other players to delve into more difficult content.
Keep in mind with completely open PvP, it is going to be very difficult for a multiboxer using multiple input devices to defend all their characters.
There are multiple different reasons to have more then 1 account per pc so trying to limit it is going to be hard. But if you have ever been jacked by multi boxer they are all standing right on each other and casting the exact same spell/move.
Isn't there a away to track that? Via vicinity and cast log?
Also I have members you are semi disabled but still want to play. So we set up 3rd party cast sequence macros to help them out.
Example one of my officers is an electriction. Who was working on a sub power board when some one turn the power back on...... he's a bit crispy now and his left hand does not work to well so we help him out with casting macros to still be able to play with us.
Just my thoughts
Phalafax
P.s who else has been messed up by 5 multiboxing shamans in wow. Instant lava burst ftw......
First things first, I've only recently discovered ashes of creation and got hooked, I've watched a few videos and read some stuff. By no means I'm an expert and updated on all aspects of the game, so what I'm gonna say here could be wrong maybe?
I think multi-boxing could influence some parts of the game negatively and in an unfair way and I will give you a few examples off the top of my head.
-Housing, I've read somewhere that there will be a limit of one static house per account if one manages to buy it. By multi-boxing, one can secure multiple houses, causing the consequences that you can already imagine.
-Mayor elections, I know that for scientific nodes there will be an election based on votes, so one person will have multiple votes depending on the number of accounts he has which is unfair I guess since, well it's just 1 person? And it could probably affect in some way the elections for military and economic nodes as well.
-Covering a wide range of resource nodes, having multiple accounts logged in simultaneously will greatly increase one's ability to gather resources across various areas. A multi-boxer can gather a few nodes that are close by and then switch tabs to another character that is in a different area and tap nodes over there too, having un "unfair" advantage I would say. Or just get more resources from collective nodes using all his characters.
-I've heard spying on other guilds is a thing and this could be done without multi-boxing if you have multiple people involved, but if a person multi-box it just becomes way easier to gather information and you don't "spend" one person entirely to this task.
These are just a few examples of what multi-box can do to the game and I think the cons greatly outweigh the pros of having it allowed.
So no, multi-boxing should not be allowed in my opinion. I don't know how could you prevent false positives (multiple people playing on the same network). But if in the end, you decide to allow multi-boxing, make servers that allow multi-boxing and servers that DON'T allow it, please I don't wanna get fucked over or have a handicap compared to them, because yes, multi-boxing is a paid advantage.
I don't mind current stance of Interpid allowing multiboxing.
But if I can choose I would prefer strictly against multiboxing.
Now main problem is how to enforce it. It is not that difficult to obfuscate connection to look like completely different player from server perspective even on same computer.
Maybe it is great opportunity to use nowadays quite popular big data and machine learning.
Gather information about connection like IP, hardware, resolution ... (basically concept of "web browser fingerprinting"). Having list of most used VPNs and their IP ranges. People will of course use VM etc. but with enough data there is potential to detect patterns of heavy multiboxers.
Combine this with behavioral info of players. AI could be trained during alfas and betas and continually be improving after game goes live.
Basically use big data to detect patterns of most players and flag deviations that would be investigated by active GM in game. By this AI would be actively trained and getting more robust.
I am counting on the fact that if anyone is multiboxing it won't be as fluid as normal player. Of course false positives will be common, especially in the beginning of the system. That's why active GM is important.
But after time there is potential for considerable success rate. And if so, after time, game could get reputation as not possible to multibox in it (or not).
But I guess if auto attack is not a thing in this game, usage of macros and scripting will be strictly punished and overall design of the game will discourage use of multiboxing, it is quite possible it won't be that much of a problem at all.
We'll see.
0
AmistMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What solution will they provide if the poll disagreed?
If there is a solution then there is absolutely no reason for multiboxing to exist!
There's quite a difference between respectfully disagreeing with the devs and saying that they're mindcontrolling their community and calling those who disagree with you clowns.
There's not really a valid reason to ban multiboxing if you have no real way of enforcing such policy. It's a nice idea and all, but not very wise to go in thinking you can come out of it without an immense amount of false positives. The fact is, that only a very small minority will be multiboxing and it won't affect 99% of the playerbase - is it worth to risk losing potentially thousands of people to false positives flagged by your system? I don't think so.
It's also interesting to point out that the main reason people don't want multi-boxing to be allowed because it puts them at a disadvantage is ridiculous.
This is what usually happens in mmorpgs.
Player A multi-boxes. Player A has twice the resources you do. Player A has reached top gear quicker than you.
Enter Player B. Player B, didn't multi-box. Player B has twice the resources you do. Player B has reached top gear quicker than you.
And then there's you. Still struggling through level 30.
You encounter Player B, and die, then start raging how they're cheating when the simple truth is they reached there by either being a better player, or spending more time than you did. Now you have no way to prove that they did in fact cheat, nor you can prove that they didn't cheat.
If you want to compete against the best of the best, you need to dedicate serious amount of time to this game. If you can't do that, then I don't see a reason why this would be an issue AT ALL.
The current stance I believe is the correct one .... there would be to many false positives of people who play in the same home together. Using Robust detection software for Macro and Bot usage with the current advancements in AI detection will be ok as long as the harshest punishment is used in the accounts that are detected doing so.... Could utilize tools to transport any character doing to a cave with no exit and let them rot there for eternity.... Maybe a wall of shame along with a Perma ban .... Straight truth is that just saying people can not do will not stop people from doing, they will and detection and removal is really the best option.
Multiboxing should not be allowed.
It provides an advantage over normal players given by monetary means. It can strongly influence the economy and it can lead to major griefing of other players.
The restrictions put in place are really good and will definitely stop many from multiboxing. Another measure I could think about is have player key-presses monitored and compared. When multiple characters simultaneously press the same buttons in an unusual manner, either have automatic suspensions or which would probably be more reliable, have a GM check them out and if needed warn/suspend them.
I can't think of any other possible way to stop people from multiboxing but even if it's just the two restrictions you already have, it shouldn't be too big of a problem.
I think it's fine to own multiple accounts. I don't see how to prevent people from owning multiple accounts without false positives for people living in the same residence, etc. This does come with the cost, as many have pointed out, that people will literally be able to buy themselves elections.
There should be zero multiboxing. Under no circumstances should it be acceptable for players to run multiple instances of the game and simultaneously control all of those characters from a single machine. In 15 years of playing MMOs, every time I've encountered multiboxers in games it has always been an absolute mess with various forms of griefing. They are generally regarded as an annoyance, only negatively impacting those they come across.
Multiboxing from separate machines. I don't know of any method by which to effectively multibox from separate machines. Maybe I'm not aware of a known method of doing this that results in an efficacy similar to that of multiboxing from a single machine. If that is the case I don't support multiboxing from separate machines. The number of machines would be irrelevant and is essentially the same as a single machine.
As far as I can tell, Intrepid's current stance is the correct one.
What solution will they provide if the poll disagreed?..
This is a poll and discussion to see how people feel, not a vote to determine what they do.
I hope that is the case..
I hope they take everything with piles of salt. We lash out like abused dogs, interpid knows we care that much and try to trust them bit by bit. (warning loud!)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WChyGkBPvZI
Current Intrepid stance - Players are allowed to own multiple accounts, but may not launch multiple game clients from the same computer. Players may not use any software to automate character actions or mimic keystrokes.
As others have said, this is the most you can do without hurting normal players. In an ideal world AoC would have no multiboxing, but that's not really possible.
Multi-Boxing provide advantages to the game through mechanical AND monetary exploitations.
It allows one player to bypass the 1 per account rule for freeholds through PAYING for another account($15/mo) AND computer(+$1500), then trade the required materials to the alt from your main account to build another freehold against the intended design. Preventing other players from taking the land! This can be repeated multiple times!
Edit: The same exact system was implemented in Archeage Unchained and it failed. People DID use another computers and take great advantage of it. Regardless of how impactful the advantage will be in AoC, it is still considered Pay to Win/Convenience. There is absolutely no reason for it to exist!
There is literally no effective way to stop/prevent multiboxing in a way that does not give a lot of false positive results. Stop it.
Transactions between characters can be monitor and sus activity can be cought. Apart from that there isn't really much they can do if someone has separate machines and multiple accounts.
I've never really been against multiboxing, but when I played Lineage 2 Classic recently, multiboxing was a huge issue, I am support player, and there was no real need for me, because multiboxing a buffer and playing something else was better in all scenarios
This right here, is the main reason I am against multiboxing. I also tried out the L2 classic servers and this completely ruined the experience for me. There was nearly no reason to main one of the more niche classes because someone around always had an alt in the party.
What I am worried about in Ashes with multiboxing, is mainly on the economy side. If someone has the resources to multibox, would they be able to level up multiple professions at once? can they gather twice as fast? How large of an economic impact could they make?
I think the answer given to us by Intrepid is sufficient in that I doubt there will be many multiboxers if those rules are in place. I just wanted to provide my experience with the negative side of multiboxing.
Hell, I say make second accounts cheaper so I can let my wife and kids play. 15 for first, 10 for second, 5 for each additional.
This would be great! I like the idea of a Family Plan. I think a 20%-30% subscription discount for additional family accounts would be a nice perk. I suppose they would need to be linked somehow, though. Same credit card or bank account, perhaps.
I've never really been against multiboxing, but when I played Lineage 2 Classic recently, multiboxing was a huge issue, I am support player, and there was no real need for me, because multiboxing a buffer and playing something else was better in all scenarios
This right here, is the main reason I am against multiboxing. I also tried out the L2 classic servers and this completely ruined the experience for me. There was nearly no reason to main one of the more niche classes because someone around always had an alt in the party.
What I am worried about in Ashes with multiboxing, is mainly on the economy side. If someone has the resources to multibox, would they be able to level up multiple professions at once? can they gather twice as fast? How large of an economic impact could they make?
I think the answer given to us by Intrepid is sufficient in that I doubt there will be many multiboxers if those rules are in place. I just wanted to provide my experience with the negative side of multiboxing.
I do not see an economic impact for the game as a whole. From the game perspective, there is no difference whether a character is played by one or two humans. There is of course an advantage for the human player, but I can only see an indirect effect on the game economy, which is what the player can do with the advantage.
I think you should make gathering/crafting HIGH APM OR HIGH FOCUS, that way it'll be pretty much impossible to efficiently do something in those fields at x times the rate of other players as a single person, cause in reality it's impossible to stop multi boxing and someone could still use more than one computer to gain an advantage, the best you can do is make the economic reasons someone would multi box high actions per minute or require a lot of focus, for example when you're mining or fishing you have to keep the bar in the middle (like in fable 2)
I think multiple accounts in the same household should be allowed. There are several reasons (families playing together, Gaming Cafes etc).
I think what needs to be monitored is if only one of the two(or more) accounts are progressing. If everything is being funneled into one account then it is obviously an alt and should be banned accordingly. If both accounts are progressing and they are their own unique existences, then it should be allowed. (Archeage Private Server done this some justice, but I doubt the Archeage monitoring systems).
As long as the devs work to allow 1 client to operate per PC, that's all you can ask for.
Restricting 1 account per IP is a terrible idea. Room mates and couples want to play together. That IS NOT p2w. Dont let trolls ruin the game.
I just want a game that has one character that can do anything it wants. I find it hard to take a stance one this point (sorry intrepid), but I really hate looking at what World of Warcraft has for a system. It's a mess of characters. Having to log out of your character because it can make armour but can't make potions. It's BS.
I have a couple of different characters in ESO but that's just to try out the different types of characters/character roles available to play. 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 DPS. That sort of thing.
(Divided it for easier reading, ended up beeing quite long).
1. Introduction
Hello everyone. I'm new to the community. I got really excited when I saw the features Ashes of Creation promises. I got even more excited when I heard the AMA and many of the questions made by the community showed that whoever thought it had previous experiences with MMOs and understood core/basic mechanics, but what impacted me the most is seen that the questions were understood properly showing that the designers are experienced players that understand the background or the true meaning of certain topics and really put thoughts and effort into it.
I also consider this to be an EXTREMELY ambicious project and it also give me certain doubts regarding the implementation of so many features and how well are they going to work together once the product is finished.
Regarding this topic in particular. I didn't read ALL the messages eventho I read plenty of them, so I might repeat myself forgive me if such is the case.
2. Multiboxing: Yes or No I believe that MULTIBOXING has to be allowed. The reason for it is quite simple. Nowadays there are many games (MMOs) wich DO NOT ALLOW multiboxing as a core feature, but anyway they end up having certain/many people wich use and abuse multiboxing for several different reasons. All of the reasons were adressed in the AMA and in previous comments. But especifically Real Money Traders. Therefore because this is a real thing, and this is going to happen even if you don't allow the possibility of using MULTIBOXING, I believe that it's only fairer for the rest of the people to actually be able to do it, or to have the possibility aswell.
If you see the current Lineage2 scene (wich I play regularly), you'll see tons of individuals (including me at some point), wich use certain 3rd party softwares to override the servers defenses and exploit certain mechanics for their/our benefict. And this is only because it's difficult to compete against those people that use it without them, or to obtain monetary benefits.
Something quite similar happens in WoW Classic for example, where server hoping abuse, multiboxing-boting, regular boting, completely define the economy of the server, neglecting completely the regular player agency on deciding its future. In WoW Classic, I did RMT for around 3 months, never got detected, in any of my accounts because it's quite easy to guess the algorythms that are usually implemented to detect these kind of stuff.
3. Thoughts on stoping abuse of MULTIBOXING
The only true solution for this, is a possibly costly one (I wouldn't know if such is the case), and that is using ACTUAL people to fiscalize certain activities regularly. There's no better way to test if someone is actually multiboxing/boting/exploiting/etc than actually having people checking certain economic areas.
When it comes to WoW, there were really only couple of things you could do to obtain the best proffit when it came to RMT and noone ever used to check those spots or places (even when the only thing you had to do is check 2 dungeons or one map where certain resource spawn). When they implemented this last HUGE WAVE of BANs, wich was to a degree effective, the prices of the usual goods skyrocketed, and in some servers are making people starve to death and even pushing the prices of GOLD to really high values. This is because the economy was entirely driven by RMT playes abusing certain systems. The same happened in Lineage2 Classic.
Sorry for overextending. And again I'm really excited with the project and as long I can help you with something, you can count on me for anything.
I agree with multi boxing as long the mining and gathering and crafting doesnt have to be in automatic stance.. I suggest it be done manually like a mini game on the otherhand like how you are fishing in most of the games except with BDO where they have an automatic stance and can go fishing afk if this can be done in mining materials too then this can be exploited easily.. like what because if you just afk and mine in there.. you can leave multiple accounts to gather resources with people using multiple hardware they can just ruin the economy of this game... and to prevent like a p2W aspect for someone who has multiple hardwares and multiple accounts.. make the end game craftable materials harder and commitment.. make the mastery of professions be as grindy as fck that even has to take months to finish.. with this stance either they go hunt world bosses for gears or commit to professions to have those equivalent gears. this can also discourage P2W in multiboxing cause making it hard doesnt make it worth for some people to invest in multiple account played alone. and disable auto follow mode ..
Comments
The simple answer is make the game systems work in a manner that the time spent multiboxing is equally or less profitable than other ways you spend your time playing the game. Make it so that the freehold system isn't just like printing free money(WoW Garrison style).
This makes it so those who enjoy playing the game in this multitasking, micro economic way, can do so. While others can enjoy farming efficiently on one character, or grouping up with other players to delve into more difficult content.
Keep in mind with completely open PvP, it is going to be very difficult for a multiboxer using multiple input devices to defend all their characters.
Isn't there a away to track that? Via vicinity and cast log?
Also I have members you are semi disabled but still want to play. So we set up 3rd party cast sequence macros to help them out.
Example one of my officers is an electriction. Who was working on a sub power board when some one turn the power back on...... he's a bit crispy now and his left hand does not work to well so we help him out with casting macros to still be able to play with us.
Just my thoughts
Phalafax
P.s who else has been messed up by 5 multiboxing shamans in wow. Instant lava burst ftw......
So no, multi-boxing should not be allowed in my opinion. I don't know how could you prevent false positives (multiple people playing on the same network). But if in the end, you decide to allow multi-boxing, make servers that allow multi-boxing and servers that DON'T allow it, please I don't wanna get fucked over or have a handicap compared to them, because yes, multi-boxing is a paid advantage.
But if I can choose I would prefer strictly against multiboxing.
Now main problem is how to enforce it. It is not that difficult to obfuscate connection to look like completely different player from server perspective even on same computer.
Maybe it is great opportunity to use nowadays quite popular big data and machine learning.
Gather information about connection like IP, hardware, resolution ... (basically concept of "web browser fingerprinting"). Having list of most used VPNs and their IP ranges. People will of course use VM etc. but with enough data there is potential to detect patterns of heavy multiboxers.
Combine this with behavioral info of players. AI could be trained during alfas and betas and continually be improving after game goes live.
Basically use big data to detect patterns of most players and flag deviations that would be investigated by active GM in game. By this AI would be actively trained and getting more robust.
I am counting on the fact that if anyone is multiboxing it won't be as fluid as normal player. Of course false positives will be common, especially in the beginning of the system. That's why active GM is important.
But after time there is potential for considerable success rate. And if so, after time, game could get reputation as not possible to multibox in it (or not).
But I guess if auto attack is not a thing in this game, usage of macros and scripting will be strictly punished and overall design of the game will discourage use of multiboxing, it is quite possible it won't be that much of a problem at all.
We'll see.
There's quite a difference between respectfully disagreeing with the devs and saying that they're mindcontrolling their community and calling those who disagree with you clowns.
not big enough sample size yet
This is a poll and discussion to see how people feel, not a vote to determine what they do.
yeah so gold sellers get a discount
This is what usually happens in mmorpgs.
Player A multi-boxes. Player A has twice the resources you do. Player A has reached top gear quicker than you.
Enter Player B. Player B, didn't multi-box. Player B has twice the resources you do. Player B has reached top gear quicker than you.
And then there's you. Still struggling through level 30.
You encounter Player B, and die, then start raging how they're cheating when the simple truth is they reached there by either being a better player, or spending more time than you did. Now you have no way to prove that they did in fact cheat, nor you can prove that they didn't cheat.
If you want to compete against the best of the best, you need to dedicate serious amount of time to this game. If you can't do that, then I don't see a reason why this would be an issue AT ALL.
It provides an advantage over normal players given by monetary means. It can strongly influence the economy and it can lead to major griefing of other players.
The restrictions put in place are really good and will definitely stop many from multiboxing. Another measure I could think about is have player key-presses monitored and compared. When multiple characters simultaneously press the same buttons in an unusual manner, either have automatic suspensions or which would probably be more reliable, have a GM check them out and if needed warn/suspend them.
I can't think of any other possible way to stop people from multiboxing but even if it's just the two restrictions you already have, it shouldn't be too big of a problem.
There should be zero multiboxing. Under no circumstances should it be acceptable for players to run multiple instances of the game and simultaneously control all of those characters from a single machine. In 15 years of playing MMOs, every time I've encountered multiboxers in games it has always been an absolute mess with various forms of griefing. They are generally regarded as an annoyance, only negatively impacting those they come across.
Multiboxing from separate machines. I don't know of any method by which to effectively multibox from separate machines. Maybe I'm not aware of a known method of doing this that results in an efficacy similar to that of multiboxing from a single machine. If that is the case I don't support multiboxing from separate machines. The number of machines would be irrelevant and is essentially the same as a single machine.
As far as I can tell, Intrepid's current stance is the correct one.
I hope they take everything with piles of salt. We lash out like abused dogs, interpid knows we care that much and try to trust them bit by bit. (warning loud!)
As others have said, this is the most you can do without hurting normal players. In an ideal world AoC would have no multiboxing, but that's not really possible.
There is literally no effective way to stop/prevent multiboxing in a way that does not give a lot of false positive results. Stop it.
Transactions between characters can be monitor and sus activity can be cought. Apart from that there isn't really much they can do if someone has separate machines and multiple accounts.
This right here, is the main reason I am against multiboxing. I also tried out the L2 classic servers and this completely ruined the experience for me. There was nearly no reason to main one of the more niche classes because someone around always had an alt in the party.
What I am worried about in Ashes with multiboxing, is mainly on the economy side. If someone has the resources to multibox, would they be able to level up multiple professions at once? can they gather twice as fast? How large of an economic impact could they make?
I think the answer given to us by Intrepid is sufficient in that I doubt there will be many multiboxers if those rules are in place. I just wanted to provide my experience with the negative side of multiboxing.
This would be great! I like the idea of a Family Plan. I think a 20%-30% subscription discount for additional family accounts would be a nice perk. I suppose they would need to be linked somehow, though. Same credit card or bank account, perhaps.
I do not see an economic impact for the game as a whole. From the game perspective, there is no difference whether a character is played by one or two humans. There is of course an advantage for the human player, but I can only see an indirect effect on the game economy, which is what the player can do with the advantage.
Should multiple people be able to play at the same time from the same location (IP)(not actually multi-boxing)? Yes.
Someone you otter know.
I think what needs to be monitored is if only one of the two(or more) accounts are progressing. If everything is being funneled into one account then it is obviously an alt and should be banned accordingly. If both accounts are progressing and they are their own unique existences, then it should be allowed. (Archeage Private Server done this some justice, but I doubt the Archeage monitoring systems).
Restricting 1 account per IP is a terrible idea. Room mates and couples want to play together. That IS NOT p2w. Dont let trolls ruin the game.
I have a couple of different characters in ESO but that's just to try out the different types of characters/character roles available to play. 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 DPS. That sort of thing.
1. Introduction
Hello everyone. I'm new to the community. I got really excited when I saw the features Ashes of Creation promises. I got even more excited when I heard the AMA and many of the questions made by the community showed that whoever thought it had previous experiences with MMOs and understood core/basic mechanics, but what impacted me the most is seen that the questions were understood properly showing that the designers are experienced players that understand the background or the true meaning of certain topics and really put thoughts and effort into it.
I also consider this to be an EXTREMELY ambicious project and it also give me certain doubts regarding the implementation of so many features and how well are they going to work together once the product is finished.
Regarding this topic in particular. I didn't read ALL the messages eventho I read plenty of them, so I might repeat myself forgive me if such is the case.
2. Multiboxing: Yes or No
I believe that MULTIBOXING has to be allowed. The reason for it is quite simple. Nowadays there are many games (MMOs) wich DO NOT ALLOW multiboxing as a core feature, but anyway they end up having certain/many people wich use and abuse multiboxing for several different reasons. All of the reasons were adressed in the AMA and in previous comments. But especifically Real Money Traders. Therefore because this is a real thing, and this is going to happen even if you don't allow the possibility of using MULTIBOXING, I believe that it's only fairer for the rest of the people to actually be able to do it, or to have the possibility aswell.
If you see the current Lineage2 scene (wich I play regularly), you'll see tons of individuals (including me at some point), wich use certain 3rd party softwares to override the servers defenses and exploit certain mechanics for their/our benefict. And this is only because it's difficult to compete against those people that use it without them, or to obtain monetary benefits.
Something quite similar happens in WoW Classic for example, where server hoping abuse, multiboxing-boting, regular boting, completely define the economy of the server, neglecting completely the regular player agency on deciding its future. In WoW Classic, I did RMT for around 3 months, never got detected, in any of my accounts because it's quite easy to guess the algorythms that are usually implemented to detect these kind of stuff.
3. Thoughts on stoping abuse of MULTIBOXING
The only true solution for this, is a possibly costly one (I wouldn't know if such is the case), and that is using ACTUAL people to fiscalize certain activities regularly. There's no better way to test if someone is actually multiboxing/boting/exploiting/etc than actually having people checking certain economic areas.
When it comes to WoW, there were really only couple of things you could do to obtain the best proffit when it came to RMT and noone ever used to check those spots or places (even when the only thing you had to do is check 2 dungeons or one map where certain resource spawn). When they implemented this last HUGE WAVE of BANs, wich was to a degree effective, the prices of the usual goods skyrocketed, and in some servers are making people starve to death and even pushing the prices of GOLD to really high values. This is because the economy was entirely driven by RMT playes abusing certain systems. The same happened in Lineage2 Classic.
Sorry for overextending. And again I'm really excited with the project and as long I can help you with something, you can count on me for anything.