OrcLuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I want an option, for low tier quests to have a "please help me oh my god I just want the suffering to end" button.
This button will show the most specific instructions for low tier quests, and has a 5 day cool down. For the rest of the quest, you get very specific and easy to read instructions.
I think this became popular in the point and click genre with the modern revival and I think it is the most compassionate thing game devs have ever done.
How about something sound based. Once you accept the quest it keys up your character to have cues of specific race voice communications. Help by adding more immersible context and content of the your character. Something without a drag on the graphics perhaps.
Nobody who played a MMO before will expect anything other than fetch/kill/talk quests so making the generic quest system harder by forcing players to waste time and search for quest givers will be super annoying.
Players who play casual PvE mostly will be annoyed because they will have a stopper for their progression if there are no breadcrumbs.
Players who just want to get through the quest line to get to the "end game" will get annoyed for being forced to waste time on a mechanic they had to grind in all the other games already.
The only people that might see a positive are those weird animals called "Roleplayers" but this is a minority not the core.
As for the extent, I enjoyed the "taxi" system in final fantasy when the character would even run by itself to the quest giver if I click on the quest. Marking quest givers and zones where the quest can be completed is a standard in my opinion from a perspective of an mmo veteran that played enough games to be annoyed by the grind in mmos yet still playing them
Do people think that it is so hard to read the quest? Do we need to be hand held to do everything?
Think of a role playing game (the RPG in the MMORPG). You get vague quests and you get to figure it out!
Let's 'get into character' and act as if we are there. I am all for relaxing and knowing it is a game. But putting some sweat equity into it is a wonderful thing.
Coming in a lil late to the discussion.
Personally I really miss the days of slightly obscure quests, those discoveries that happen in your circle of friends. I think this would work especially well in a world as dynamic as AoC. No wiki locations and NPC dialogues written down.
As for breadcrumbs, maybe keep it down to only a list of available jobs posted on a bulletin board. Let the players have to find the NPC. That could be cool
Nobody who played a MMO before will expect anything other than fetch/kill/talk quests so making the generic quest system harder by forcing players to waste time and search for quest givers will be super annoying.
Players who play casual PvE mostly will be annoyed because they will have a stopper for their progression if there are no breadcrumbs.
Players who just want to get through the quest line to get to the "end game" will get annoyed for being forced to waste time on a mechanic they had to grind in all the other games already.
The only people that might see a positive are those weird animals called "Roleplayers" but this is a minority not the core.
As for the extent, I enjoyed the "taxi" system in final fantasy when the character would even run by itself to the quest giver if I click on the quest. Marking quest givers and zones where the quest can be completed is a standard in my opinion from a perspective of an mmo veteran that played enough games to be annoyed by the grind in mmos yet still playing them
Do you also think books are only for “role players”.
Quests are about the narrative. They’re about learning about the world. If you just want to ignore the whole game world then play Anthem or an FPS.
If quests get the AFK Questing treatment I’ll lose all respect I have for this studio
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BrigadoomMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think that if you need to go to a location I would rather have the node lite up rather than a specific part in the node so that you have to still explore and go. This will cause you to talk to people as you pass by and ask if they have seen "x" or know about "y". Just my thoughts on it.
Dev Discussion #21 - Quest Breadcrumbs
What is your opinion on quest breadcrumbs (target locations highlighted, quest givers with icons above their heads, etc)? How much is too much? How much is too little?
This is a difficult question to answer, as answers given are highly subjective. I personally prefer more quest breadcrumbs than less. For instance, I enjoy quest-givers having an ! above their head. Additionally, when given a quest (say, kill 3 wolves in x area), I enjoy seeing the area that the wolves will be in highlighted (perhaps with a colored circle) on my map/minimap. When completing a quest, I also appreciate seeing a ? or some other marker to indicate where to turn in my quest.
The only feature I would discourage is having an actual arrow, or lighted path, show the player where to run to complete their quest. That said, to be frank, I have not played many games with "too many" breadcrumbs.
My reasoning behind this is: For players who "need" or "want" help with their quest locations, this accommodates them. I believe that the difficulty in a quest should be in the actual content of it (fighting the difficult mob, doing the puzzle, etc), rather than finding the quest area/quest giver. For those who **dislike** help with their quests, there should absolutely be an option to "turn off" breadcrumbs. This approach would accommodate all types of gamers, and allow them to play the game in their preferred fashion.
I kind of like how FFXIV does it in general. People you need to talk to have icons, but some quests will circle a general area where you need to find the thing you're looking for, or the person you're looking for, etc without completely revealing it.
I would say that if there was a toggle for "fairy path" in case you're looking for a quest giver, or open a town map and have the icon on the map and a small one over the person.
As long as quest givers are clearly marked that is enough. That being said, not all quests should be easily identifiable. People should be rewarded for talking to NPC's that are not flagged occasionally or just exploring in the world and stumbling on things.
Games have traditionally take a Main Quest Line / Side Quest Line approach to this and I think that is how it should be.
Main quest lines such as the main story arc, and society main quests should be easy to find.
Side quests, even in the societies should be there in an "easter egg" fashion to encourage people to immerse.
I am a fairly casual player and I look forward to a world that does not hand me everything and put me on guided rails. Some of that is nice for the main points / key highlights of story arc, but I want to explore and adventure. I want to write my own story in the world not read a book that tells me what and who and how I will be.
Don't sell casual players short. We had thriving communities in EQ, DaoC, and UO which were not always casual friendly in game mechanics.
I talked about this in another one of my forum posts, the information that is given to a player is of ULTIMATE importance IN and OUT of game. If I know exactly what something is just by looking at it or the UI telling me Im basically playing a clicker game. I just go around clicking on stuff knowing what it does.
I say be as minimal as possible, it will require the players to interact with everyone and listen intently to the story of the NPC/quest instead of just spamming through and clicking "accept quest". It helps players be immersed in the world/region.
Even be minimal when it comes to the map/mini-map and journal/quest log. If I know exactly where to go and exactly what to do, whats the point of the quest? There is no adventure there, no mystery, no "aha!" moments, I get no satisfaction in being able to figure something out myself.
Let the players figure things out by interacting with items/NPCs not by telling/showing us at a glance. Keep the hand-holding to a minimum I say!
I love that you are asking us like this. I did like the play where the quest island the swamp outpost was bumped up to level 2, we saw the names just had a subtle sparkle. It was not an obtrusive question mark above their head, which perhaps takes away the immersion.
I like the idea of the sparkle on things I will need to collect in the open world and clues in the quest (bread crumbs) versus a marked item like Questie did with WoW. Though I appreciated it, as it made it easy, I don't want to play WoW again, I want to experience this world and get lost in it.
I am hoping for subtlety and needing the guild, friends, other players to help out as a community if I need more direction. Subtle sparkles for me like what you had in the alpha would be ideal.
I'll say the old L2 way was good and encouraged exploration Quest givers would have marks above their heads but later on you'd have only general location marked on the map for example "Enchanted Valley" or "Forest of Mirrors" but the rest was up to the player to navigate.... (I'll get you next time Master Toma!!!)
This is a great question. As you guys are trying to take different approaches like highlighted name plates to indicate quests or some kind of interaction, I fell most players are so familiar with that foundation it will be confusing or hard to find at first. Breadcrumbs are things that should subconsciously be bringing the player towards that direction for some reason, having a question mark or symbol above the NPC gives players an instant gratification and get us thinking, alright we definitely have to go talk to that guy. I think there can be subtle breadcrumbs around but for more iconic scenarios I feel they should not be super transparent.
I also like the idea of sort of "hidden" quests, where for example if some people like grinding, they can grind X amount of a certain mob in an area for XP, and X amount of another mob in the area, and maybe these are hidden in a achievement type interface where they can navigate to that node area in the interface and it gives them optional other methods of earning XP if they don't want to run around doing traditional questing - it would give you alternate avenues for earning XP if you skipped the other quests.
About hidden quests, would be nice to get some informations form NPC (a) about NPC (b) like that his favourite dish is boiled eggs with mustardsauce and potatos and when you actually did get that hint form NPC (a) and then cook the dish and go to NPC (b) you get a special dialog option which then lead to a quest on a hunt for a memento of his grandma, which he lost on a battlefield many many years ago and so on ...
But till you obtained the quest you wouldn't get any notice or markers for it.
I don't want a GPS for quests, but I like having an icon above mobs and NPCs who are relevant to quests.
Even better: give us the option of asking nearby NPC's about _quest_ and the NPC replies with "I'm not sure I can do anything for you but maybe _NPC_ knows?"
Also hidden quests should be completely secret. No clues. You solve the mystery on your own Sherlock Holmes style. Drop hints in the lore that most people don't read. Rumours of a alchemist from centuries ago.
I like the idea of breadcrumbs - icons on the map and/or compass. The alternative is to have a NPC give directions, which may be difficult for the directionally challenged. Quest markers make it easier. Maybe you can create an option to turn off quest markers for the more hardcore.
Hmm personally, as a newer player to MMO's , knowing where the person is and who it is, helps, however when I start a quest, I don't want help in finding location / person. to continue the quest like after I talk to person a to start quest, I don't want help indications that tell me who player b is or where on a map, I want to find it myself.
Totally agree with this, discovery is part of the fun whether it leads to riches or death
Having an indication that a NPC has a quest(or is available to turn in a quest at) feels necessary. Especially in a game of this scope with the minimal fast-travel options.
Beyond identifying where you can acquire the quest, including the more details of how, where, and what you have been tasked with in the quest text is more engaging, it potentially improves the social aspect, and it is more intrinsically rewarding than to have it direct you on the map.
Thank you!
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ogreMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would love to see quests with no markers or directional assistance whatsoever, highlighting key items is ok so long as it's not too pronounced. Having to actually read the quests and figure things out might take more time and effort but it makes completing them much rewarding.
I think i recall reading that there was some sort of main storyline or overarching world narrative planned so perhaps "story" quests could be more streamlined to assist players in accessing available story content.
Pre-statement:
Many of the players in the MMORPG genre nowadays are adults, either with jobs, children or both, while others have more time on their hands and looking to "rush" through a game fast to see later content.
With that said, we have to understand that some players only have an hour or two every other day to play a game. They come in with a goal of getting some exp, earn a little gold and just maybe upgrade a piece of gear.
There is nothing more frustrating than getting stuck for 15 minutes on some basic quest just because you couldn't find it.
Also, many players also want to "skip" early content and have a good first impression and sense of progression early on, or they are put off a game (instant gratification or just wanting to fight endgame bosses). It is undeniable that a game heavily relies on a steady player base in order to sustain an economy in-game and for the development team. Catering for both is a tough task.
On the other hand - puzzles, mysteries and longer "explorer" quests are very fun, with a team or to challenge yourself and see the creative minds of the developers at work. Even with guides being made for every part, some love to engage this type of content fully. (I have personally played games where certain quests haven't been solved for over 2 decades!)
My suggestion would be to have some breadcrumbs for most of the quests, as they generally a guide of progression.
On top of that, have another type of content, could be called "Mysteries", where there are no clues except for NPC text/voices and clues you find along the way. This way players knowingly engage with content of their choice, fully aware it is a longer type of quest that will lead them into hidden areas, interact with the world and more (could be multi part as well).
Two things to keep in mind: Firstly, the Mysteries will need some level of variation/randomization to make guides give you a slight idea, but not give away the entire quest. Secondly, the rewards for putting in the time and solving such puzzles, riddles and quests should be scaled appropriately. Many games have the same reward for a 5 minute quests as a 45 minute one.
For me, I want to be able to clearly see who has a quest for me. However, the UI and writing for that needs to be well done. An example of what I don't like here is in New World. The dialogue is usually a couple of long centre-aligned paragraphs. I actively don't want to read any of that, and don't think I have done while playing the preview. FFXIV does a good job with dialogue boxes etc.
If you're giving an area quest (eg find x amount of things in this area) a circle on the map to show the area is a lifesaver. Another example of what New World does wrong (easy target, sorry) is that it just has a general arrow symbol on the map. That means I don't know how far or close to look. I'm more than happy to put the work in to look for things, but that's genuinely really unhelpful as it offers you nothing. The quest descriptions (from what i've played) also don't describe where I should be looking either.
I think just knowing where a quest objective is (if it's talk to this or that person) is super helpful and should be included. I know that AoC has ranger/tracking mechanics that will be used in quests. I'm happy if I have to find my way there, but some instruction (description of the area etc) would be great. Nothing too vague, but also nothing hyperspecific.
OrcLuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If I have to go to third party website to find where your badly written or un-updated quest text says to go find something thats been changed, yeah I'm not gonna be happier or satisfied with the quest unless its a high level secret quest that gives me something to do at max level.
I prefer for quest-givers to have a more subtle indicator like the shimmer around the NPC. As far as the location for quest objectives I believe a general area indicated on a minimap is ideal. I believe it also depends on the type of mission. The tasks consisting of simple fetch mechanics or something similar would be fine to have explicit indicators in my opinion.
I think there is great opportunity to involve the taverns here. Perhaps you can gain information on where mobs of interest for a task or quest are (nearby) on the map by visiting a close-by tavern.
Edit: also one thing I really love about some RPG games, like DOS2, is that just by following up on quests via talking to different NPCs, you can gain extra information or even items to help you with the quest! Choosing certain dialogue options can be super rewarding which feels phenomenal because it feels so organic and immersive. If an NPC gives me a freaking antedote just because I went to the herbalist in town to ask about the type of spider I'm commissioned to kill, that feels crazy good (especially if the quest log didn't tell me to do it explicitly).
Quest givers should Absolutely have markers above their head(s).
As for the breadcrumbs, maybe have a general area highlighted on the map, but most of the information should be in reading the actual quest instructions given from the quest giver... and some puzzling quests where you need to actually think and figure out what exactly he wants would be great.
The main problem with MMORPGs today, is that everything is given to the player with very little effort or head scratching and makes the game too easy.
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fulcioMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2020
I would prefer a mix, depending on how quests types that will actually be implemented Quest Indicators:
1) Main Quests:- Some type of indicator or standard that this type of npc will always have these types of quest so it will be easy for people to become involved in the storyline of a node/faction/religion/crafts etc...
2) Side quests:- They are hidden and require actual exploration to find, adds to exploration of the world i like to do instead of chasing dots on a map
Objective area indicators:
This depends on how well the quests are written and maps are marked.
In some games with reasonable sized maps, the quest descriptions have given very few clues as to where to go, If the quest log fills up too quickly, then the quests you drop are the ones you do not know what to do.
If you make the quest log big enough then it wouldn't be as much of a problem, except when timers are involved, or they dissappear as a node grows, and then it comes down to whether it is part of a chain of quests that you are now locked out of.
Basically point us in the right direction, and don't require pixel perfect positioning to find the quest objective.
ABSOLUTELY NO BREADCRUMBS!!!! this game will be one of a kind in all mmorpgs categories.. one thing I can’t stand is the pathetic, mind numbingly boring gameplay, designed so even a goldfish could quest. One SMALL neon or glitter aura for the npc to start is sufficient. Everything else should be due to common sense, story line following and 100% good old fashioned immersion. If you can’t figure it out, then that is what your guild/community is there for, without the need for communities you will create a toxic and selfish environment that reflects the exact condition and decline of World of Warcrafts environment today. I’ve seen it happen, I know it exists. I’ve played WoW since beta. Do not make the mistake of creating ostracised solo playing selfishness, because people are not engaging with others due to stupidly boring and bland questing.
Comments
This button will show the most specific instructions for low tier quests, and has a 5 day cool down. For the rest of the quest, you get very specific and easy to read instructions.
I think this became popular in the point and click genre with the modern revival and I think it is the most compassionate thing game devs have ever done.
Players who play casual PvE mostly will be annoyed because they will have a stopper for their progression if there are no breadcrumbs.
Players who just want to get through the quest line to get to the "end game" will get annoyed for being forced to waste time on a mechanic they had to grind in all the other games already.
The only people that might see a positive are those weird animals called "Roleplayers" but this is a minority not the core.
As for the extent, I enjoyed the "taxi" system in final fantasy when the character would even run by itself to the quest giver if I click on the quest. Marking quest givers and zones where the quest can be completed is a standard in my opinion from a perspective of an mmo veteran that played enough games to be annoyed by the grind in mmos yet still playing them
Think of a role playing game (the RPG in the MMORPG). You get vague quests and you get to figure it out!
Let's 'get into character' and act as if we are there. I am all for relaxing and knowing it is a game. But putting some sweat equity into it is a wonderful thing.
Personally I really miss the days of slightly obscure quests, those discoveries that happen in your circle of friends. I think this would work especially well in a world as dynamic as AoC. No wiki locations and NPC dialogues written down.
As for breadcrumbs, maybe keep it down to only a list of available jobs posted on a bulletin board. Let the players have to find the NPC. That could be cool
Do you also think books are only for “role players”.
Quests are about the narrative. They’re about learning about the world. If you just want to ignore the whole game world then play Anthem or an FPS.
If quests get the AFK Questing treatment I’ll lose all respect I have for this studio
This is a difficult question to answer, as answers given are highly subjective. I personally prefer more quest breadcrumbs than less. For instance, I enjoy quest-givers having an ! above their head. Additionally, when given a quest (say, kill 3 wolves in x area), I enjoy seeing the area that the wolves will be in highlighted (perhaps with a colored circle) on my map/minimap. When completing a quest, I also appreciate seeing a ? or some other marker to indicate where to turn in my quest.
The only feature I would discourage is having an actual arrow, or lighted path, show the player where to run to complete their quest. That said, to be frank, I have not played many games with "too many" breadcrumbs.
My reasoning behind this is: For players who "need" or "want" help with their quest locations, this accommodates them. I believe that the difficulty in a quest should be in the actual content of it (fighting the difficult mob, doing the puzzle, etc), rather than finding the quest area/quest giver. For those who **dislike** help with their quests, there should absolutely be an option to "turn off" breadcrumbs. This approach would accommodate all types of gamers, and allow them to play the game in their preferred fashion.
Games have traditionally take a Main Quest Line / Side Quest Line approach to this and I think that is how it should be.
Main quest lines such as the main story arc, and society main quests should be easy to find.
Side quests, even in the societies should be there in an "easter egg" fashion to encourage people to immerse.
I am a fairly casual player and I look forward to a world that does not hand me everything and put me on guided rails. Some of that is nice for the main points / key highlights of story arc, but I want to explore and adventure. I want to write my own story in the world not read a book that tells me what and who and how I will be.
Don't sell casual players short. We had thriving communities in EQ, DaoC, and UO which were not always casual friendly in game mechanics.
I say be as minimal as possible, it will require the players to interact with everyone and listen intently to the story of the NPC/quest instead of just spamming through and clicking "accept quest". It helps players be immersed in the world/region.
Even be minimal when it comes to the map/mini-map and journal/quest log. If I know exactly where to go and exactly what to do, whats the point of the quest? There is no adventure there, no mystery, no "aha!" moments, I get no satisfaction in being able to figure something out myself.
Let the players figure things out by interacting with items/NPCs not by telling/showing us at a glance. Keep the hand-holding to a minimum I say!
I like the idea of the sparkle on things I will need to collect in the open world and clues in the quest (bread crumbs) versus a marked item like Questie did with WoW. Though I appreciated it, as it made it easy, I don't want to play WoW again, I want to experience this world and get lost in it.
I am hoping for subtlety and needing the guild, friends, other players to help out as a community if I need more direction. Subtle sparkles for me like what you had in the alpha would be ideal.
About hidden quests, would be nice to get some informations form NPC (a) about NPC (b) like that his favourite dish is boiled eggs with mustardsauce and potatos and when you actually did get that hint form NPC (a) and then cook the dish and go to NPC (b) you get a special dialog option which then lead to a quest on a hunt for a memento of his grandma, which he lost on a battlefield many many years ago and so on ...
But till you obtained the quest you wouldn't get any notice or markers for it.
Even better: give us the option of asking nearby NPC's about _quest_ and the NPC replies with "I'm not sure I can do anything for you but maybe _NPC_ knows?"
Also hidden quests should be completely secret. No clues. You solve the mystery on your own Sherlock Holmes style. Drop hints in the lore that most people don't read. Rumours of a alchemist from centuries ago.
Totally agree with this, discovery is part of the fun whether it leads to riches or death
Beyond identifying where you can acquire the quest, including the more details of how, where, and what you have been tasked with in the quest text is more engaging, it potentially improves the social aspect, and it is more intrinsically rewarding than to have it direct you on the map.
Thank you!
I think i recall reading that there was some sort of main storyline or overarching world narrative planned so perhaps "story" quests could be more streamlined to assist players in accessing available story content.
Many of the players in the MMORPG genre nowadays are adults, either with jobs, children or both, while others have more time on their hands and looking to "rush" through a game fast to see later content.
With that said, we have to understand that some players only have an hour or two every other day to play a game. They come in with a goal of getting some exp, earn a little gold and just maybe upgrade a piece of gear.
There is nothing more frustrating than getting stuck for 15 minutes on some basic quest just because you couldn't find it.
Also, many players also want to "skip" early content and have a good first impression and sense of progression early on, or they are put off a game (instant gratification or just wanting to fight endgame bosses). It is undeniable that a game heavily relies on a steady player base in order to sustain an economy in-game and for the development team. Catering for both is a tough task.
On the other hand - puzzles, mysteries and longer "explorer" quests are very fun, with a team or to challenge yourself and see the creative minds of the developers at work. Even with guides being made for every part, some love to engage this type of content fully. (I have personally played games where certain quests haven't been solved for over 2 decades!)
My suggestion would be to have some breadcrumbs for most of the quests, as they generally a guide of progression.
On top of that, have another type of content, could be called "Mysteries", where there are no clues except for NPC text/voices and clues you find along the way. This way players knowingly engage with content of their choice, fully aware it is a longer type of quest that will lead them into hidden areas, interact with the world and more (could be multi part as well).
Two things to keep in mind: Firstly, the Mysteries will need some level of variation/randomization to make guides give you a slight idea, but not give away the entire quest. Secondly, the rewards for putting in the time and solving such puzzles, riddles and quests should be scaled appropriately. Many games have the same reward for a 5 minute quests as a 45 minute one.
Just my two cents, sorry for rambling.
If you're giving an area quest (eg find x amount of things in this area) a circle on the map to show the area is a lifesaver. Another example of what New World does wrong (easy target, sorry) is that it just has a general arrow symbol on the map. That means I don't know how far or close to look. I'm more than happy to put the work in to look for things, but that's genuinely really unhelpful as it offers you nothing. The quest descriptions (from what i've played) also don't describe where I should be looking either.
I think just knowing where a quest objective is (if it's talk to this or that person) is super helpful and should be included. I know that AoC has ranger/tracking mechanics that will be used in quests. I'm happy if I have to find my way there, but some instruction (description of the area etc) would be great. Nothing too vague, but also nothing hyperspecific.
Irkallu discord: https://discord.com/invite/CB3ZrnD
Edit: also one thing I really love about some RPG games, like DOS2, is that just by following up on quests via talking to different NPCs, you can gain extra information or even items to help you with the quest! Choosing certain dialogue options can be super rewarding which feels phenomenal because it feels so organic and immersive. If an NPC gives me a freaking antedote just because I went to the herbalist in town to ask about the type of spider I'm commissioned to kill, that feels crazy good (especially if the quest log didn't tell me to do it explicitly).
As for the breadcrumbs, maybe have a general area highlighted on the map, but most of the information should be in reading the actual quest instructions given from the quest giver... and some puzzling quests where you need to actually think and figure out what exactly he wants would be great.
The main problem with MMORPGs today, is that everything is given to the player with very little effort or head scratching and makes the game too easy.
Quest Indicators:
1) Main Quests:- Some type of indicator or standard that this type of npc will always have these types of quest so it will be easy for people to become involved in the storyline of a node/faction/religion/crafts etc...
2) Side quests:- They are hidden and require actual exploration to find, adds to exploration of the world i like to do instead of chasing dots on a map
Objective area indicators:
This depends on how well the quests are written and maps are marked.
In some games with reasonable sized maps, the quest descriptions have given very few clues as to where to go, If the quest log fills up too quickly, then the quests you drop are the ones you do not know what to do.
If you make the quest log big enough then it wouldn't be as much of a problem, except when timers are involved, or they dissappear as a node grows, and then it comes down to whether it is part of a chain of quests that you are now locked out of.
Basically point us in the right direction, and don't require pixel perfect positioning to find the quest objective.