I truly believe that quest indicators is a must in any new MMO RPG. I understand the hardcore players that want to go back to the old ways, but we are in a new day and age where we like to have as much information as possible (this is reality!). We cannot go back in time and live our previous experience of WOW classic since this is no longer the reality of today's MMO RPG games. New players will be turned off by making the quest line too complex, and this will become a niche game which will be only target the players who are seeking those previous experiences.
The more information regarding where you have to navigate for a quest, the better in my opinion, but thats just me. The quest indicators on the other hand, is a must!
No map icons for quest progression. Quest givers and turn in some kind of subtle icon. Basically be the least invasive into the immersion of the game as possible.
I really enjoy the idea of having to actually read a quest or letter to find out a location to travel to. It not only forces you to learn areas and remember characters, but it also immerses you in the world.
If you have an even split of people that like none vs breadcrumbs for everything you could do something that meets in the middle. You could highlight areas of interest within a zone where the npc/objective is and give amplifying details within the quest log.
With a leveling system that takes significant time investment it may make more sense to have breadcrumbs to increase casual player efficiency.
In conclusion, I think it may make most sense to have a breadcrumb systems that highlights areas that a quests objective is located, but leave some clues and amplifying information in the quest log.
Team! Please do not put in objective map markers! If you want players to read your content and not turn into a "auto-accept and run to map point" game, you must not put in objective map markers! Every other game does this and nobody needs to invest in the story/lore/reading quest lines.
Hello All, I'm new to the Ashes of Creation community, and it's potential looks so truly amazing that I had to try to get involved ASAP! Sorry about this incoming LONG post, but I just got carried away!
For this topic(as well as Many other gaming topics), I'd start with the famous phrase "You'll Never Please Everyone"...But you can please the masses. I guess all that's left to decide is what kind of masses are you looking forward to pleasing in AoC?
From what I've seen in 25+yrs of gaming, both playing and organizing(personally and professionally), IMO there are mainly 3 fundamental types of gamers. Hardcore, Casual, and Habitual. FTR: There's nothing wrong with being either type(I consider myself pretty much a Habitual gamer)!
"Hardcore" gamers are the collectors and 100%ers. They need to complete everything, find everything, with the best times(first if possible) and/or the best that they can, and usually the harder it is to complete the more they enjoy it! They usually take their games very seriously, and usually don't enjoy Casuals messing up their flow. Love ya Hardcorers!
"Casual" players are just looking for something to do, maybe they're bored, maybe they got a couple hours to waste, whatever. Games are fun to them, but they'd have just as much fun watching tv, playing a sport, or reading...but a key note is, they can become Habitual gamers if they stumble onto a game they truly enjoy.
"Habitual" gamers really enjoy gaming, likely more than doing Anything else! They can easily spend 6 to 8 hours a day playing games and not even realize it(5, 6, 7 days a week)! Some games will turn them into a temp Hardcorer, others they'll put down and never play again(like a Casual), and they will likely chose playing games over just about anything else most days! I think this category likely makes up about 60% of the overall gamer base out there! It might be even higher with the way technology has advanced so drastically, making games look so amazing over the last decade! Not to mention with the way the world/pandemic is going today!
Again this is all my opinion from my personal experiences during the many, many, too many, years of playing and organizing games!
Sorry back on topic! So if you want to please the Hardcore gamers I'd say breadcrumbs will likely be a bit of a nuisance(aka Mostly just leave them all out). Hardcore players thrive on hardcore gameplay!
The Casual player will almost certainly need them in order to play! That way the "searching/getting lost hassle" doesn't make them lose interest before even giving the game a fair chance.
Finally the Habitual gamer(Most overall gamers) will only need to see a few helpful markers or hints to get them firmly started in unfamiliar content/areas! Mainly just the key necessities. Mark above quest giver NPCs, and maybe marking/highlighting target areas! As long as they coincide with the story, if the NPC doesn't know how can he tell us where to go? Now maybe if there was an "easy mode", then it could have plenty of helpful breadcrumbs for those who want/need them!
Now IMO, the best overall way to handle the "quality of life" issue of breadcrumbs, would be by giving great quality details in the quest log info, with map details included. Also I think quest givers should always be marked, at least for the main storyline and important "must do" quests. Hidden and/or side quest givers/rewards are usually great "finds"...especially if main story quests, their rewards, or the map itself gives you little hints to their location/story! Like "Beware" signs, a Flashy Joe's Tavern sign(in the middle of no where), a lost item you randomly find while exploring/questing(if you don't overlook it ), and so on! Things like that are fun, and possibly even better than main story questing at times! A problem really only appears when you miss something important because there was No helpful info for it!
Ok, for detail's sake, and again IMO! A bad quest example would be having a huge beautiful area surrounding the quest giver, with 2 dense forests, 2 open plains, 2 lakes, and a large river with a huge water fall at one end and heavy rapids at the other, stretching all the way across the map...but then the quest just reads "Collect 10 murloc eyes", or even just "Collect 10 murloc eyes down by the water"...and that's it!
So ultimately you're like, What?? There is like 5 large areas where I could possibly find the murlocs(which usually, but not always live around water). So with no details to narrow the huge beautiful map down from countless possible places to look(boring), or even just having to search all 5 of the likely and huge spread out water places(better but not good enough), that lack of quest info can ultimately turn the originally huge beautiful wide open world, that usually draws players into the game, into a huge turnoff for a lot of players(especially casual and habitual players)! Because searching is one thing, but too much searching can be Too Much! Especially if it's happening every quest, in every zone, throughout a huge world(no matter how beautiful it is), and possibly with No "breadcrumbs" at all! Not to mention, that quest just sounds boring and tedious(aka not looking forward to doing!)!
Now IMO, simply adding in another line(or more) of text in the quest log info, like "Be careful not to lose your footing in the rapids or the murlocs might overtake you" or even just a "Don't be distracted by the beauty of the waterfall" will ultimately improve the players experience(without the need for many, if any, breadcrumbs), and IMO not only does it improve the experience as a whole, not to mention sounds much more like something worth actually doing/looking forward to, but it would also improve the immersion of the RP aspect(Which personally I'm hoping is done better in AoC than the other MMORPGs out today)!
Either way I'd say they're never really going to be a major issue...unless there are way too many, quests are poorly designed, or important objectives are hidden too well, because then at least some extra key breadcrumbs would sadly become essential(to "most" players)! I loved Morrowwind, But when it told me to go find something halfway around the world, with nothing but a name to go by, it used to piss me off to no end!!
If all else fails, put in a few extra here or there when "possibly" needed, just to make sure ya cover all your bases, but then also make sure you give players the ability to toggle them off/on(incase there are too many and /or they're annoying to some players!). No One wants to see a UI full of unnecessary junk!!
Edit: BTW, No Matter What She Says...Size Does Matter!!(Sorry I couldn't resist! ) Seriously though, Any/ALL breadcrumbs need to be as small and unintrusive as possible!!
Well that's just my "quick" take on breadcrumbs in general. They should never really be any kind of major issue, but they might become necessary for some if a poor quest's design warrants it! Sorry again for the long post, Kudos to anyone who made it all the way to the end!
I think that reading a quest or hearing the dialogue (voice acted) is the best course of action for immersion. That being said I think there's something to be said for incremental help in the user interface of a game. Potentially a "hot or cold" type of display utilizing a color overlay in the quest log or a displayed quest on screen could work. A red to green dial if you will that shows you how close you are in relation to the next quest step. If you have an active on-screen tracked quest display (which I hope you do)... the proximity to the next quest step could be indicated by font text color in the tracked quest display.
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FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I am looking forward to playing an MMO with few quest indicators that primarily relies on paying attention to the quest information and the environment. I have never played a game without information such as quest markers, so I don't know what the ideal amount of information is, but I look forward to experiencing the direction that Ashes is headed in
It depends on how well the quest is structured. My suggestion is allow a high degree of customizability of the quest clues.
My personal experience is some quest are so obscure, because I dont share the same world view as the quest content creator, there un solvable. Then I have to look it up online, usually to discover it really does not make any sense, but here what ya have to do.
Trying to communicate an Idea, a story, across language and cultural barriers can be very difficult. Some time you need a glowing pointer to find the spot.
I think it would be nice if you have multiple options.
For me, i would like to think there is more to the world then what the questionmarks show. So for example; we all know the "kill 10 x" quests.
I dont mind seeing a farmer with a questionmark above his head and him/her marking a location on my map (maybe not even an area, but a large X would also be fine). I have go to the marked X and kill said wolves.
I guess i should even be able to lvl from 1 to max with only doing these kind of quests. But then you have the people like me, who like to read the quest text and maybe discover some "hidden" information (the pack is lead by an alpha, if i kill him, i get extra reward but i can also just finish it by killing 10 wolves?) or maybe even talk to the farmers wife who doesnt give an actual quest, but can tell me the farmer is traumatized by continually fighting of the wolves. I might see the village doctor and ask if he has a potion to relieve stress? This doctor also doesnt have a questionmark, but might gain an extra conversational option because i talked to the farmers wife. I can buy a potion from him or help him with something and as a reward i get an anti-stress potion.
So in general; the "easier" the quest is to begin with or if more general knowledge is available, the more information i would like to get. If the quest is at first not a quest, but something i got from immersing myself into the game, the less information i would like to get. The reason for this is mainly because it will give me this feeling of "did i just found out something cool?"
Sorry for my bad english, it's not my first language.
I think you can negate the need for quest breadcrumbs by having good quest design. The best way about it is to built it into the quest that has been provided. For example:
"Collect 10 murloc eyes to finish this recipe. The last time I saw murlocs in the area, they were congregating around lake X. Swordsman Y has a shack by the lake and can point you in the right direction if you need more guidance." (with some extra lorum ipsum for the context of the quest). Like so, your breadcrumbs are already given to you from the outset; it doesn't interfere with the player's exploration and intrigue. If so as given in the above example, use the world to determine the level of guidance given to the players (ask extra NPCs for clues or guidance, as an example).
Likewise, there are ways of designing features to provide information without being glaringly obvious. Whilst exclamation marks and question marks have seemingly become synonymous for quest giving, why not change the colour of the NPCs name to reflect whether or not they have a question. Same level of information provided to the user without making it so obvious there is no longer any need to engage in the game.
As BobatheFett notes, if you take the skill about interpreting the quest from the information given, you will just result with players accepting quests without knowing why or for what gain and just running to where requested.
Please could you possibly try out the idea of creating difficult legendary quest. You can start us out, but it would just be so much fun, if a truly dedicated player knew the lore of this mmo, and used that knowledge in navigating an adventurous questline.
Hopefully this will actually get players into learning more about the games lore.
I think maybe the true answer is variability. Having two modes, similar to how Ghost Recon: Breakpoint chose to address their playerbase.
You could have an option toggle in the settings to opt for a more traditional “Read the quest details, and listen to the dialogue to find who you need to speak to, where you need to go, and what you need to do.” This obviously requires succinct and skilled quest text writing, that are easy to digest, but still impart some flavor.
And then option two can be traditional MMO indicators, though most people probably don’t want them too in-your-face like World of Warcraft’s yellow exclamation marks and question marks. Something more subtle, like a floating gold dot, or a small, semi-transparent wisp animation over the NPC, and area markers on the map.
The goal should be to guide a player to the area without drawing sparkly lines, showing an exact destination dot on the map, or autopathing like in BDO.
1. Quests overall should not be devalued.
2. Depends what the goal is.
3. Quests should give a moment of success.
If my goal is to do a quest, where i have to gain X amount of resource and give it to an NPC, i probably won't even accept the quest and i prefer not to even see it on my screen. Should be hidden and accepted only if i ask for a quest - just for the sake of it.
If my goal is to do a quest, where i have to explore unexplored land, find 76kg rat from a cave and it turns out it's just a regular rat with a shadow on it, i would remember the quest entire life, probably tell a friend to accept it and gather a party - just for the lolz.
I would rather not see any quests in the UI if i don't ask for it specifically. If the game wants me to really-really do a quest, so i could get a game-essential item, that would be totally different story. Like a tutorial where you must read the manual how to breathe or you will die.
I would rather do a quest where you gain 2% exp or any other resource boost on the land if i gather it and hand it over to an NPC. Then it's like hei, we are friends, let's do business.
So - big nono for "kill 20 mobs, hand it over" quest
- big yesPlease to quests like "if you complete and gain honor, you will gain a certain state and get rewards for it".
I like the idea of having a noticeable icon over the NPCs head that there is a quest. I like how some games have a different highlight or color depending on if its a quest you absolutely need to do, or you out-leveled, or perhaps is a daily or other kind of unimportant side quest. As far as having a destination on a map, I think the idea of an outlined area is a good idea. I personally wouldn't even mind if you clicked on the quest log and chose to track a specific quest that it gave you an arrow with a distance meter.
Unless you want it to be easter-eggy or something, finding a quest, knowing where to go to finish the quest, and even being shown physically (map or arrow) where it is would be a great approach. Maybe even having the ! icon be on the map if youve discovered that town/area and it isnt fog of war
Some people might think its too dumbed down this way. I disagree. If you start a game, and theres no tutorial on the basics, theres no guidelines on where to go and you're left to just kill squirrels and deer, you're going to get bored really fast. You may not even find anything or head in the wrong direction and quit the game because you never saw any content in order to level up or have a purpose. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to walk into a big city and have to visit every single npc to figure out which ones give me quests. I don't have time for that. Where is the user experience in being lost?
Perhaps you can give the player a customizable experience and choice, as far as how much meta information is available in the UI/engine. This is something that people will never agree on. As for myself, I prefer as little assistance as possible because it forces me to learn the geography of the game and to actually read quests and experience the content people have worked so hard writing. Games that follow the current cookie-cutter trends can devolve into "click as fast as you can and move on to the next spoon fed content" routines. It's too easy to spend a whole night gaming and have no idea what any of the quests were about. My two cents.
Perhaps you can give the player a customizable experience and choice, as far as how much meta information is available in the UI/engine. This is something that people will never agree on. As for myself, I prefer as little assistance as possible because it forces me to learn the geography of the game and to actually read quests and experience the content people have worked so hard writing. Games that follow the current cookie-cutter trends can devolve into "click as fast as you can and move on to the next spoon fed content" routines. It's too easy to spend a whole night gaming and have no idea what any of the quests were about. My two cents.
This isn't a good idea because people are their own worst enemy. They will choose the easy way out and later complain that the experience was too easy.
Edit: Unless you choose a UI setting when you make your character and it's a permanent thing. But still nobody would choose the thing that puts them at a disadvantage. You could do a "hardcore" server type thing, but then that just adds to server numbers and segregates the community.
Breadcrumbs are a must have to entice the continuous influx of new players to MMORPGs. Their size however could be tweaked as to not necessarily ruin the immersion for those looking to play in that particular way. I'm sure Intrepid's design team will make the correct decisions for everyone to enjoy.
"If the world were to grow back it's heart, I then believe humans would help one another to achieve anything"
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unknown221Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
After reading various comments and ideas, I think Intrepid is onto something very important here beyond just difficulty of questing. Namely information. Breadcrumbs will effect the immersion and interest of players as previously stated, but it also heavily influences our basic geographical and directional understanding. This information will also be crucial for PvP elements in Ashes.
If I remember correctly, cartography was also going to be integrated into the game. Meaning, people may not have significant information on their maps. It would be strange and possibly difficult if quest markers or hints bring us to locations that may not have been discovered or been drawn by any cartographers yet. Places may not even have names.
There would also be PvP related quests or tasks where providing breadcrumbs would affect the ability of individuals locating strategically important locations. For example: finding caravan routes or military outposts with the help of auto-generated markers or location highlighters.
The map used in Apocalypse is a perfect example of providing information. It was a detailed map that provided names of different larger areas such as the town and forests/swamps. The individual buildings were even shown, this is huge in terms of information affecting PvP planning and strategy. Especially false information.
Breadcrumbs of any kind should seriously be examined to see if it affects the PvP in any unfair or unreasonable way. If there is an arrow on the top of your screen pointing directly to the direction of an enemy objective, all that needs to be done is to walk in a straight line and then attack. There are no search and destroy elements. At least if it's on a map people have to think a bit and plot a path to their destination and make adjustments to stay on it.
If players were able to make markers themselves and provide location names etc. using in-game mechanics, then markers and hints could become partially player generated and provide a whole new layer of flavour into the game.
PvP Example: A player locates an enemy node's hidden outpost and is a cartographer. He can then draw or name the outpost and sell this information back to his allies. This information is then given to all of the players who are hostile to that node, or perhaps can be purchased by them.
PvE Example: A party of players discovers raw resources and then tasks or quests are generated. The exact location of these resources are not provided by quest givers until a cartographer or other mark the location and provide it to the node. This information could also be exclusive to the node, thus providing an advantage for locals.
I dislike it when games tell me exactly where to go. I think it dilutes the experience of actually playing the game. I think MMORPGs are fortunate in that the player base usually anticipates the challenge of discovery.
I would like to suggest though a hot and cold indicator. Whether it be on your character, or part of the quest UI/overlay. Something that simply tells you if you're in the correct vicinity. I think that way players are more motivated to find the "hot spot" and complete the quest themselves, rather than giving up (and googling) simply because they can't tell if they're looking in the right area.
And perhaps once a user has completed the quest, it unlocks a marker to make replayability easier. Because let's face it people will want to grind low level quests.
Perhaps you can give the player a customizable experience and choice, as far as how much meta information is available in the UI/engine. This is something that people will never agree on. As for myself, I prefer as little assistance as possible because it forces me to learn the geography of the game and to actually read quests and experience the content people have worked so hard writing. Games that follow the current cookie-cutter trends can devolve into "click as fast as you can and move on to the next spoon fed content" routines. It's too easy to spend a whole night gaming and have no idea what any of the quests were about. My two cents.
This isn't a good idea because people are their own worst enemy. They will choose the easy way out and later complain that the experience was too easy.
Edit: Unless you choose a UI setting when you make your character and it's a permanent thing. But still nobody would choose the thing that puts them at a disadvantage. You could do a "hardcore" server type thing, but then that just adds to server numbers and segregates the community.
I am basically suggesting that we have the ability to remove things from the UI/Engine should we want to. For instance, should Intrepid decide to show quest objectives on the map, there is zero harm in allowing someone to turn that information off if they choose to. If they decide to appeal to a broader audience, there is no harm in allowing the more "purist" gamer to experience the game world free of hand-holding. If they choose to go the more hardcore route, then the point is moot.
I think we saw this with WoW classic release, it was nice at first then got old. I think it helps with identity within the game, but I think it alienates newer people without the drive to succeed. (not trying to be critical, this isn't fully correct)
I also think it needs to cater to people who don't care about about the world, and aren't there for the adventure for it to be a healthy populated world.
Perhaps you can give the player a customizable experience and choice, as far as how much meta information is available in the UI/engine. This is something that people will never agree on. As for myself, I prefer as little assistance as possible because it forces me to learn the geography of the game and to actually read quests and experience the content people have worked so hard writing. Games that follow the current cookie-cutter trends can devolve into "click as fast as you can and move on to the next spoon fed content" routines. It's too easy to spend a whole night gaming and have no idea what any of the quests were about. My two cents.
This isn't a good idea because people are their own worst enemy. They will choose the easy way out and later complain that the experience was too easy.
Edit: Unless you choose a UI setting when you make your character and it's a permanent thing. But still nobody would choose the thing that puts them at a disadvantage. You could do a "hardcore" server type thing, but then that just adds to server numbers and segregates the community.
I am basically suggesting that we have the ability to remove things from the UI/Engine should we want to. For instance, should Intrepid decide to show quest objectives on the map, there is zero harm in allowing someone to turn that information off if they choose to. If they decide to appeal to a broader audience, there is no harm in allowing the more "purist" gamer to experience the game world free of hand-holding. If they choose to go the more hardcore route, then the point is moot.
You completely disregarded the entire point of what I said.
People will never opt out of having all information available if they have the option to. Those same people will later complain that the game was too easy or too handholdy.
Sure you can play Skyrim without fast travel easily, but people have poor impulse control and you see people complaining that fast travel exists because of that.
First post! so excited to contribute to this community
Provide breadcrumbs AND make quest givers/goal indicators toggleable in the game settings!
There are folks who want to speed through the quests with no interest in lore, and others who want to become as immersed in the world as possible. Both are valid ways to enjoy the game.
In other words....allow for both the Morrowind and Skyrim experience.
I think streamlining quests is a good way to make for a seamless, pleasant experience. You don't want players frustrated or turned off by the fact that they need to do a lot of independent research in order to complete quests or have a clear understanding of where to go, what's required, where to return etc. The internet is such a big part of our lives now that anyway, once this quest has been done 10 or 20x people will just be able to google a walkthrough, so what are you really preserving?
Similar to Divinity, if the combat is fun and challenging even if the quests are arduous, difficult, long or whatever, the combat, loot/reward systems, and strong linear progression make people stick around and make a game replayable.
I remember when DAOC and WoW first came out and you had things like Thottbot that you were alt tabing constantly to use, it was more of a headache than fun, and is why things like add'ons became as popular as they did. It was essentially telling developers, 'you aren't making this as intuitive as it could be, so the community will fill in the gaps.' That's a pretty bad solution, because you will have your gaming population with a varying array of UI setups, making it hard to make assumptions on what players know, have access to, and ultimately balance.
Edit: I actually will change something about what I said. Part of the magic of new games is exploring the world. The problem is this is rarely, truly meaningful. If you want to have an open world that explores exploration and curiousity, putting some of the best exp spots off-the-beaten-path, or having non-linear quests provide noticeably meaningful loot rewards are some good options. WoW actually did this really well at release, but it became a circle of repetition at some point where the best rewards were to just basically do quests that gave tokens where you could pick your gear, trade for it, or that some quests were simply worth doing and some weren't. Dynamic loot systems have a lot more potential than days past because of AI and ML algorithms that could add a lot of relevance for players, while still adding some level of randomization.
As a new player when it comes to MMOs I like a bit of direction, but not a lot, stuff like talk to X person in X town. Or to be even more overt talk to X person in the southernmost node for example. If an area were simply highlighted on the map as an area pertaining to a quest that a character is currently doing I feel as if this encourages exploration but still provides decent direction for those that like following preset paths to an extent. I know there are more in depth ideas like this but i want to be included sooooo.....
Perhaps you can give the player a customizable experience and choice, as far as how much meta information is available in the UI/engine. This is something that people will never agree on. As for myself, I prefer as little assistance as possible because it forces me to learn the geography of the game and to actually read quests and experience the content people have worked so hard writing. Games that follow the current cookie-cutter trends can devolve into "click as fast as you can and move on to the next spoon fed content" routines. It's too easy to spend a whole night gaming and have no idea what any of the quests were about. My two cents.
This isn't a good idea because people are their own worst enemy. They will choose the easy way out and later complain that the experience was too easy.
Edit: Unless you choose a UI setting when you make your character and it's a permanent thing. But still nobody would choose the thing that puts them at a disadvantage. You could do a "hardcore" server type thing, but then that just adds to server numbers and segregates the community.
I am basically suggesting that we have the ability to remove things from the UI/Engine should we want to. For instance, should Intrepid decide to show quest objectives on the map, there is zero harm in allowing someone to turn that information off if they choose to. If they decide to appeal to a broader audience, there is no harm in allowing the more "purist" gamer to experience the game world free of hand-holding. If they choose to go the more hardcore route, then the point is moot.
You completely disregarded the entire point of what I said.
People will never opt out of having all information available if they have the option to. Those same people will later complain that the game was too easy or too handholdy.
Sure you can play Skyrim without fast travel easily, but people have poor impulse control and you see people complaining that fast travel exists because of that.
I disregarded nothing. I simply disagree with you. Good luck.
I've always liked idea of quest information coming from a town information board (shortened to TIB for ease of typing) and then the player has to seek out the quest giver.
E.g.
You enter a town and head to the TIB, there you can see all the available missions in the area. The missions give a brief description, e.g. "Maester Peter is looking for someone to help him collect information on the local fauna, go to the town's apothecary for further details".
If a mission sparks interest then the player can take note of the quest givers name and location then run to them to get further information and accept the quest.
With this system you have a central location of all quests in the town/area, this would let you reduce breadcrumbs as players know they can go to the TIB to find quests rather than looking for symbols on the map/above NPCs heads.
In addition to this, there could still be a small symbol above Quest giving NPC heads that only appears once the player is within a certain radius of the NPC (e.g. 5m-10m), this would make finding the NPC easier and also not stop those who are just passing through a town/area (without checking the TIB) from missing a quest (assuming they run close to the NPC), there could also be a verbal action from the NPC to indicate they have a quest e.g. "Hey, you, looking for a quick job?".
I like the idea of a general area being highlighted on the player map, perhaps to keep immersion it would look like someone drew a circle/shaded on the map, the player then knows the general quest area.
Outside of towns players could find quests using the previously mentioned proximity system, if they're close to an NPC they'll see or hear the NPC perform an action indicating they have a quest and then a small symbol appears above their head.
There could also be quests started through items , e.g. finding a glowing item/thing (e.g. a fruit, weapon, bones, footprints) on the ground will start a quest "Wow, this fruit looks exotic, perhaps I should show it to Maester Peter in [town]?"
This kind of dragged on but I hope I got my point across.
TL;DR NPC quest indicator only appears when in close proximity (5-10m), NPC's perform an action to indicate they have a quest (e.g. say "Hey, looking for a job, kid?"), To quickly find quests players can go to a central Information Board which gives basic quest info and where to find the quest giver, quests can be started in the wild from items etc. indicated by a glowing effect.
Perhaps you can give the player a customizable experience and choice, as far as how much meta information is available in the UI/engine. This is something that people will never agree on. As for myself, I prefer as little assistance as possible because it forces me to learn the geography of the game and to actually read quests and experience the content people have worked so hard writing. Games that follow the current cookie-cutter trends can devolve into "click as fast as you can and move on to the next spoon fed content" routines. It's too easy to spend a whole night gaming and have no idea what any of the quests were about. My two cents.
This isn't a good idea because people are their own worst enemy. They will choose the easy way out and later complain that the experience was too easy.
Edit: Unless you choose a UI setting when you make your character and it's a permanent thing. But still nobody would choose the thing that puts them at a disadvantage. You could do a "hardcore" server type thing, but then that just adds to server numbers and segregates the community.
I am basically suggesting that we have the ability to remove things from the UI/Engine should we want to. For instance, should Intrepid decide to show quest objectives on the map, there is zero harm in allowing someone to turn that information off if they choose to. If they decide to appeal to a broader audience, there is no harm in allowing the more "purist" gamer to experience the game world free of hand-holding. If they choose to go the more hardcore route, then the point is moot.
You completely disregarded the entire point of what I said.
People will never opt out of having all information available if they have the option to. Those same people will later complain that the game was too easy or too handholdy.
Sure you can play Skyrim without fast travel easily, but people have poor impulse control and you see people complaining that fast travel exists because of that.
I disregarded nothing. I simply disagree with you. Good luck.
Take a typical kill quest. The local miller says “God those rats west of the river keep coming into my grainery, I need them gone.”
Option A: I find the river, determine where the rats are, kill ten and come back to the miller, only to find some bloody footprints leading to the now wounded miller hiding in his shed.
Option B: I open my settings, toggle ‘show quest help’ (or some such) find a marker on my map near the river, kill then rats, return to the miller and see the glowing punctuation for turn in (have you considered semi-colons?) over the shed.
That would let the casual players have their expectations met, and those who would like to find their own way both have their cake.
I wouldn't mind a bit of both worlds. Having markers of the general area it's in is very nice but maybe some quests would have you do a bit of digging. Maybe it could have some randomness tied to it.
I feel like my experience with Fallout New Vegas is appropriate here. The first time I played, I wandered into the desert near the first area and got completely decimated by a pack of radscorpions, made a bad save, and ultimately probably rage quit the game. Years later I picked the game up again and spoke to every npc this time around. One of the npc's said something like, "oh yeah, don't go west of here, the place is infested with radscorpions". OH NOW YOU TELL ME, I screamed.
So I think it would be interesting to have some quests where if you don't read the mission, you suffer for it and maybe have some funny things happen. I would probably prefer the breadcrumbs for the most part.
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The more information regarding where you have to navigate for a quest, the better in my opinion, but thats just me. The quest indicators on the other hand, is a must!
If you have an even split of people that like none vs breadcrumbs for everything you could do something that meets in the middle. You could highlight areas of interest within a zone where the npc/objective is and give amplifying details within the quest log.
With a leveling system that takes significant time investment it may make more sense to have breadcrumbs to increase casual player efficiency.
In conclusion, I think it may make most sense to have a breadcrumb systems that highlights areas that a quests objective is located, but leave some clues and amplifying information in the quest log.
For this topic(as well as Many other gaming topics), I'd start with the famous phrase "You'll Never Please Everyone"...But you can please the masses. I guess all that's left to decide is what kind of masses are you looking forward to pleasing in AoC?
From what I've seen in 25+yrs of gaming, both playing and organizing(personally and professionally), IMO there are mainly 3 fundamental types of gamers. Hardcore, Casual, and Habitual. FTR: There's nothing wrong with being either type(I consider myself pretty much a Habitual gamer)!
"Hardcore" gamers are the collectors and 100%ers. They need to complete everything, find everything, with the best times(first if possible) and/or the best that they can, and usually the harder it is to complete the more they enjoy it! They usually take their games very seriously, and usually don't enjoy Casuals messing up their flow.
"Casual" players are just looking for something to do, maybe they're bored, maybe they got a couple hours to waste, whatever. Games are fun to them, but they'd have just as much fun watching tv, playing a sport, or reading...but a key note is, they can become Habitual gamers if they stumble onto a game they truly enjoy.
"Habitual" gamers really enjoy gaming, likely more than doing Anything else! They can easily spend 6 to 8 hours a day playing games and not even realize it(5, 6, 7 days a week)! Some games will turn them into a temp Hardcorer, others they'll put down and never play again(like a Casual), and they will likely chose playing games over just about anything else most days! I think this category likely makes up about 60% of the overall gamer base out there! It might be even higher with the way technology has advanced so drastically, making games look so amazing over the last decade! Not to mention with the way the world/pandemic is going today!
Again this is all my opinion from my personal experiences during the many, many, too many, years of playing and organizing games!
Sorry back on topic! So if you want to please the Hardcore gamers I'd say breadcrumbs will likely be a bit of a nuisance(aka Mostly just leave them all out). Hardcore players thrive on hardcore gameplay!
The Casual player will almost certainly need them in order to play! That way the "searching/getting lost hassle" doesn't make them lose interest before even giving the game a fair chance.
Finally the Habitual gamer(Most overall gamers) will only need to see a few helpful markers or hints to get them firmly started in unfamiliar content/areas! Mainly just the key necessities. Mark above quest giver NPCs, and maybe marking/highlighting target areas! As long as they coincide with the story, if the NPC doesn't know how can he tell us where to go? Now maybe if there was an "easy mode", then it could have plenty of helpful breadcrumbs for those who want/need them!
Now IMO, the best overall way to handle the "quality of life" issue of breadcrumbs, would be by giving great quality details in the quest log info, with map details included. Also I think quest givers should always be marked, at least for the main storyline and important "must do" quests. Hidden and/or side quest givers/rewards are usually great "finds"...especially if main story quests, their rewards, or the map itself gives you little hints to their location/story! Like "Beware" signs, a Flashy Joe's Tavern sign(in the middle of no where), a lost item you randomly find while exploring/questing(if you don't overlook it
Ok, for detail's sake, and again IMO! A bad quest example would be having a huge beautiful area surrounding the quest giver, with 2 dense forests, 2 open plains, 2 lakes, and a large river with a huge water fall at one end and heavy rapids at the other, stretching all the way across the map...but then the quest just reads "Collect 10 murloc eyes", or even just "Collect 10 murloc eyes down by the water"...and that's it!
So ultimately you're like, What?? There is like 5 large areas where I could possibly find the murlocs(which usually, but not always live around water). So with no details to narrow the huge beautiful map down from countless possible places to look(boring), or even just having to search all 5 of the likely and huge spread out water places(better but not good enough), that lack of quest info can ultimately turn the originally huge beautiful wide open world, that usually draws players into the game, into a huge turnoff for a lot of players(especially casual and habitual players)! Because searching is one thing, but too much searching can be Too Much! Especially if it's happening every quest, in every zone, throughout a huge world(no matter how beautiful it is), and possibly with No "breadcrumbs" at all! Not to mention, that quest just sounds boring and tedious(aka not looking forward to doing!)!
Now IMO, simply adding in another line(or more) of text in the quest log info, like "Be careful not to lose your footing in the rapids or the murlocs might overtake you" or even just a "Don't be distracted by the beauty of the waterfall" will ultimately improve the players experience(without the need for many, if any, breadcrumbs), and IMO not only does it improve the experience as a whole, not to mention sounds much more like something worth actually doing/looking forward to, but it would also improve the immersion of the RP aspect(Which personally I'm hoping is done better in AoC than the other MMORPGs out today)!
Either way I'd say they're never really going to be a major issue...unless there are way too many, quests are poorly designed, or important objectives are hidden too well, because then at least some extra key breadcrumbs would sadly become essential(to "most" players)! I loved Morrowwind, But when it told me to go find something halfway around the world, with nothing but a name to go by, it used to piss me off to no end!!
If all else fails, put in a few extra here or there when "possibly" needed, just to make sure ya cover all your bases, but then also make sure you give players the ability to toggle them off/on(incase there are too many and /or they're annoying to some players!). No One wants to see a UI full of unnecessary junk!!
Edit: BTW, No Matter What She Says...Size Does Matter!!(Sorry I couldn't resist!
Well that's just my "quick" take on breadcrumbs in general. They should never really be any kind of major issue, but they might become necessary for some if a poor quest's design warrants it! Sorry again for the long post, Kudos to anyone who made it all the way to the end!
My personal experience is some quest are so obscure, because I dont share the same world view as the quest content creator, there un solvable. Then I have to look it up online, usually to discover it really does not make any sense, but here what ya have to do.
Trying to communicate an Idea, a story, across language and cultural barriers can be very difficult. Some time you need a glowing pointer to find the spot.
For me, i would like to think there is more to the world then what the questionmarks show. So for example; we all know the "kill 10 x" quests.
I dont mind seeing a farmer with a questionmark above his head and him/her marking a location on my map (maybe not even an area, but a large X would also be fine). I have go to the marked X and kill said wolves.
I guess i should even be able to lvl from 1 to max with only doing these kind of quests. But then you have the people like me, who like to read the quest text and maybe discover some "hidden" information (the pack is lead by an alpha, if i kill him, i get extra reward but i can also just finish it by killing 10 wolves?) or maybe even talk to the farmers wife who doesnt give an actual quest, but can tell me the farmer is traumatized by continually fighting of the wolves. I might see the village doctor and ask if he has a potion to relieve stress? This doctor also doesnt have a questionmark, but might gain an extra conversational option because i talked to the farmers wife. I can buy a potion from him or help him with something and as a reward i get an anti-stress potion.
So in general; the "easier" the quest is to begin with or if more general knowledge is available, the more information i would like to get. If the quest is at first not a quest, but something i got from immersing myself into the game, the less information i would like to get. The reason for this is mainly because it will give me this feeling of "did i just found out something cool?"
Sorry for my bad english, it's not my first language.
"Collect 10 murloc eyes to finish this recipe. The last time I saw murlocs in the area, they were congregating around lake X. Swordsman Y has a shack by the lake and can point you in the right direction if you need more guidance." (with some extra lorum ipsum for the context of the quest). Like so, your breadcrumbs are already given to you from the outset; it doesn't interfere with the player's exploration and intrigue. If so as given in the above example, use the world to determine the level of guidance given to the players (ask extra NPCs for clues or guidance, as an example).
Likewise, there are ways of designing features to provide information without being glaringly obvious. Whilst exclamation marks and question marks have seemingly become synonymous for quest giving, why not change the colour of the NPCs name to reflect whether or not they have a question. Same level of information provided to the user without making it so obvious there is no longer any need to engage in the game.
As BobatheFett notes, if you take the skill about interpreting the quest from the information given, you will just result with players accepting quests without knowing why or for what gain and just running to where requested.
Hopefully this will actually get players into learning more about the games lore.
You could have an option toggle in the settings to opt for a more traditional “Read the quest details, and listen to the dialogue to find who you need to speak to, where you need to go, and what you need to do.” This obviously requires succinct and skilled quest text writing, that are easy to digest, but still impart some flavor.
And then option two can be traditional MMO indicators, though most people probably don’t want them too in-your-face like World of Warcraft’s yellow exclamation marks and question marks. Something more subtle, like a floating gold dot, or a small, semi-transparent wisp animation over the NPC, and area markers on the map.
The goal should be to guide a player to the area without drawing sparkly lines, showing an exact destination dot on the map, or autopathing like in BDO.
2. Depends what the goal is.
3. Quests should give a moment of success.
If my goal is to do a quest, where i have to gain X amount of resource and give it to an NPC, i probably won't even accept the quest and i prefer not to even see it on my screen. Should be hidden and accepted only if i ask for a quest - just for the sake of it.
If my goal is to do a quest, where i have to explore unexplored land, find 76kg rat from a cave and it turns out it's just a regular rat with a shadow on it, i would remember the quest entire life, probably tell a friend to accept it and gather a party - just for the lolz.
I would rather not see any quests in the UI if i don't ask for it specifically. If the game wants me to really-really do a quest, so i could get a game-essential item, that would be totally different story. Like a tutorial where you must read the manual how to breathe or you will die.
I would rather do a quest where you gain 2% exp or any other resource boost on the land if i gather it and hand it over to an NPC. Then it's like hei, we are friends, let's do business.
So - big nono for "kill 20 mobs, hand it over" quest
- big yesPlease to quests like "if you complete and gain honor, you will gain a certain state and get rewards for it".
Unless you want it to be easter-eggy or something, finding a quest, knowing where to go to finish the quest, and even being shown physically (map or arrow) where it is would be a great approach. Maybe even having the ! icon be on the map if youve discovered that town/area and it isnt fog of war
Some people might think its too dumbed down this way. I disagree. If you start a game, and theres no tutorial on the basics, theres no guidelines on where to go and you're left to just kill squirrels and deer, you're going to get bored really fast. You may not even find anything or head in the wrong direction and quit the game because you never saw any content in order to level up or have a purpose. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to walk into a big city and have to visit every single npc to figure out which ones give me quests. I don't have time for that. Where is the user experience in being lost?
This isn't a good idea because people are their own worst enemy. They will choose the easy way out and later complain that the experience was too easy.
Edit: Unless you choose a UI setting when you make your character and it's a permanent thing. But still nobody would choose the thing that puts them at a disadvantage. You could do a "hardcore" server type thing, but then that just adds to server numbers and segregates the community.
If I remember correctly, cartography was also going to be integrated into the game. Meaning, people may not have significant information on their maps. It would be strange and possibly difficult if quest markers or hints bring us to locations that may not have been discovered or been drawn by any cartographers yet. Places may not even have names.
There would also be PvP related quests or tasks where providing breadcrumbs would affect the ability of individuals locating strategically important locations. For example: finding caravan routes or military outposts with the help of auto-generated markers or location highlighters.
The map used in Apocalypse is a perfect example of providing information. It was a detailed map that provided names of different larger areas such as the town and forests/swamps. The individual buildings were even shown, this is huge in terms of information affecting PvP planning and strategy. Especially false information.
Breadcrumbs of any kind should seriously be examined to see if it affects the PvP in any unfair or unreasonable way. If there is an arrow on the top of your screen pointing directly to the direction of an enemy objective, all that needs to be done is to walk in a straight line and then attack. There are no search and destroy elements. At least if it's on a map people have to think a bit and plot a path to their destination and make adjustments to stay on it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/images/1/14/APOC-battlegrounds-map.jpg
If players were able to make markers themselves and provide location names etc. using in-game mechanics, then markers and hints could become partially player generated and provide a whole new layer of flavour into the game.
PvP Example: A player locates an enemy node's hidden outpost and is a cartographer. He can then draw or name the outpost and sell this information back to his allies. This information is then given to all of the players who are hostile to that node, or perhaps can be purchased by them.
PvE Example: A party of players discovers raw resources and then tasks or quests are generated. The exact location of these resources are not provided by quest givers until a cartographer or other mark the location and provide it to the node. This information could also be exclusive to the node, thus providing an advantage for locals.
I would like to suggest though a hot and cold indicator. Whether it be on your character, or part of the quest UI/overlay. Something that simply tells you if you're in the correct vicinity. I think that way players are more motivated to find the "hot spot" and complete the quest themselves, rather than giving up (and googling) simply because they can't tell if they're looking in the right area.
And perhaps once a user has completed the quest, it unlocks a marker to make replayability easier. Because let's face it people will want to grind low level quests.
I am basically suggesting that we have the ability to remove things from the UI/Engine should we want to. For instance, should Intrepid decide to show quest objectives on the map, there is zero harm in allowing someone to turn that information off if they choose to. If they decide to appeal to a broader audience, there is no harm in allowing the more "purist" gamer to experience the game world free of hand-holding. If they choose to go the more hardcore route, then the point is moot.
I also think it needs to cater to people who don't care about about the world, and aren't there for the adventure for it to be a healthy populated world.
You completely disregarded the entire point of what I said.
People will never opt out of having all information available if they have the option to. Those same people will later complain that the game was too easy or too handholdy.
Sure you can play Skyrim without fast travel easily, but people have poor impulse control and you see people complaining that fast travel exists because of that.
Provide breadcrumbs AND make quest givers/goal indicators toggleable in the game settings!
There are folks who want to speed through the quests with no interest in lore, and others who want to become as immersed in the world as possible. Both are valid ways to enjoy the game.
In other words....allow for both the Morrowind and Skyrim experience.
Similar to Divinity, if the combat is fun and challenging even if the quests are arduous, difficult, long or whatever, the combat, loot/reward systems, and strong linear progression make people stick around and make a game replayable.
I remember when DAOC and WoW first came out and you had things like Thottbot that you were alt tabing constantly to use, it was more of a headache than fun, and is why things like add'ons became as popular as they did. It was essentially telling developers, 'you aren't making this as intuitive as it could be, so the community will fill in the gaps.' That's a pretty bad solution, because you will have your gaming population with a varying array of UI setups, making it hard to make assumptions on what players know, have access to, and ultimately balance.
Edit: I actually will change something about what I said. Part of the magic of new games is exploring the world. The problem is this is rarely, truly meaningful. If you want to have an open world that explores exploration and curiousity, putting some of the best exp spots off-the-beaten-path, or having non-linear quests provide noticeably meaningful loot rewards are some good options. WoW actually did this really well at release, but it became a circle of repetition at some point where the best rewards were to just basically do quests that gave tokens where you could pick your gear, trade for it, or that some quests were simply worth doing and some weren't. Dynamic loot systems have a lot more potential than days past because of AI and ML algorithms that could add a lot of relevance for players, while still adding some level of randomization.
I disregarded nothing. I simply disagree with you. Good luck.
E.g.
You enter a town and head to the TIB, there you can see all the available missions in the area. The missions give a brief description, e.g. "Maester Peter is looking for someone to help him collect information on the local fauna, go to the town's apothecary for further details".
If a mission sparks interest then the player can take note of the quest givers name and location then run to them to get further information and accept the quest.
With this system you have a central location of all quests in the town/area, this would let you reduce breadcrumbs as players know they can go to the TIB to find quests rather than looking for symbols on the map/above NPCs heads.
In addition to this, there could still be a small symbol above Quest giving NPC heads that only appears once the player is within a certain radius of the NPC (e.g. 5m-10m), this would make finding the NPC easier and also not stop those who are just passing through a town/area (without checking the TIB) from missing a quest (assuming they run close to the NPC), there could also be a verbal action from the NPC to indicate they have a quest e.g. "Hey, you, looking for a quick job?".
I like the idea of a general area being highlighted on the player map, perhaps to keep immersion it would look like someone drew a circle/shaded on the map, the player then knows the general quest area.
Outside of towns players could find quests using the previously mentioned proximity system, if they're close to an NPC they'll see or hear the NPC perform an action indicating they have a quest and then a small symbol appears above their head.
There could also be quests started through items , e.g. finding a glowing item/thing (e.g. a fruit, weapon, bones, footprints) on the ground will start a quest "Wow, this fruit looks exotic, perhaps I should show it to Maester Peter in [town]?"
This kind of dragged on but I hope I got my point across.
TL;DR NPC quest indicator only appears when in close proximity (5-10m), NPC's perform an action to indicate they have a quest (e.g. say "Hey, looking for a job, kid?"), To quickly find quests players can go to a central Information Board which gives basic quest info and where to find the quest giver, quests can be started in the wild from items etc. indicated by a glowing effect.
Maybe this video can explain it better to you.
Take a typical kill quest. The local miller says “God those rats west of the river keep coming into my grainery, I need them gone.”
Option A: I find the river, determine where the rats are, kill ten and come back to the miller, only to find some bloody footprints leading to the now wounded miller hiding in his shed.
Option B: I open my settings, toggle ‘show quest help’ (or some such) find a marker on my map near the river, kill then rats, return to the miller and see the glowing punctuation for turn in (have you considered semi-colons?) over the shed.
That would let the casual players have their expectations met, and those who would like to find their own way both have their cake.
I feel like my experience with Fallout New Vegas is appropriate here. The first time I played, I wandered into the desert near the first area and got completely decimated by a pack of radscorpions, made a bad save, and ultimately probably rage quit the game. Years later I picked the game up again and spoke to every npc this time around. One of the npc's said something like, "oh yeah, don't go west of here, the place is infested with radscorpions". OH NOW YOU TELL ME, I screamed.
So I think it would be interesting to have some quests where if you don't read the mission, you suffer for it and maybe have some funny things happen. I would probably prefer the breadcrumbs for the most part.