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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
While i oftentimes disagree with @Nooani, i do have to agree here.
Character Progression has been part of the fundament of every single RPG in existence. It's ingrained in the very core if the genre.
Skill deciding the outcome of combat on the other hand is not and has never been. RPGs have always had a variety of aspects diminishing exactly that, including, but not limited to a high degree of RNG, number advantages, different progression, lack of balance and a Rock-paper-scissory style class and gear system.
I am glad that swearing is a thing here, but I also appreciate that you are making sure to keep it civil.
I gather from your posts (and please correct me if I am wrong):
You do not like endgame gear treadmill systems.
If the above is true, than I absolutely agree as well. The never-ending gear grinder (ArcheAge, I'm looking at you!) creates such a sense of urgency that everyone is forced into a daily pipeline and this style of play not only becomes old fast, but it is pretty disgusting to begin with.
I have no problem with twinking a character that hasn't hit the level cap, however.
While I don't think anyone can change the mind of @Vhaeyne , I do agree with them that being able to overgear your friends, family, and guild is an important way to remain competitive.
I just think that it should absolutely stop at level cap, aside from minor improvements and hard-sought legendary finds.
Re-reading my own post here, it seems pretty weird, but in short, I agree with both of you on this and I also think that your opinions on the subject don't necessarily clash at all.
I was never big into ArcheAge because ArcheAge used used a messed version of the lineage 2 enchanting system. That and the labor system(A side note). ArcheAge even shares some developers from lineage 2. What I see on the wiki and the interviews I have seen with Steven give me confidence that Steven understands the difference between the systems, and why the original lineage system was better. This is also a part of the reason why lineage 2 private servers have been more popular than retail servers for years. It is not because they are free, it is because some of the same things I am arguing in this thread. The more cut throat economy, makes everything else in the game that much more compelling.
You are right about not wanting to use a low level peice on a capped tune. What a capped toon would do with low grade gear, is break it or sell it. Breaking it yields crafting mats, selling it yields currency. The point of the system is that the crafting mats are valuable at all levels. You could take the lowest level crafting material and work them into being useful at cap. You would often need to because the supply of high level materials was not the same as low level materials. A low level character is already participating in the end game economy upon harvesting their first resource node. It really is a great system when done right.
but don't just take my word for it:
"Certain low level gatherables will have a tiered progression into higher level crafting. So for example you know if I'm gathering... leaves of the blue petal flower to craft a pigment that's going to be used in the development of a tunic that I can wear at level one, then I may need to collect those in order to craft the pigments to craft a greater pigment that might be present in the in the crafting of a higher level item. So it's going to be kind of a tiered progression so that materials have relevancy throughout the different levels of of crafting; and that's important from an economic stability standpoint. You need to have layered demand from a supply standpoint so that players who are interested in collecting and gathering those materials still are relevant when the later level items are crafted.[7] – Steven Sharif"
Needing raid drops to craft the highest tier items in the game is normal, but like Steven said:
"There is a much higher chance that materials and unique recipes are dropped that can be used to craft items of equitable value.[5][7][8]"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Loot_tables
Links to all three interviews on the wiki page.
The take away is that raid drops are not soul-bound. The game is centered around the economy.
Then they just out right say that as well:
"Very little gear will be account bound or soulbound in Ashes of Creation.[47][48]
The game economy is based around crafting and degradation of items.[47]"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Economy
Like I stated many times, This is all based off of old school lineage 2.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
The twinking system and the end game gearing system are the same system. There is enough evedince on the wiki, and interviews to prove that.
It is fine if you disagree. I am not going to argue hypothetical percentages, but I do think the devs are on the right track with this.
Upkeep has everything to do with the system, because it is a part of the economy.
"An important aspect of a healthy economy is having some item sinks available... There are three kinds of item sinks: You can gain craftable items from deconstructing completed items; You can have decay... and if you want to over-enchant that item there will be a potential to destroy it as well. It's important for an economy to experience those types of emphasis on what can be crafted as well as seeing those items that are crafted be destroyed as well..[3]"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Item_deconstruction
4: Sorry about my language earlier, the use of the f word. I've had a long day. And I shouldn't take it out on anyone. [/quote]
No worries man, I am not mad at anyone here. It's all in the pursuit of our passion.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
This game is not about the one vs one, man vs man mentality. It is about guilds being forced to come together to try and dominate: politics, the land, the market, castles. This all has real economic costs that can not be done by one person alone. The economy of the game is there to force people to work together and reward people for doing so.
Player skill is one factor that is a percentage of the equation. I am sorry if you thought this was going to be a moba.
There is some good news for you if you only care about player skill. If you truly prove yourself as an incredible player, guilds will sponsor your gear. I have seen it in both EVE and L2. They will give you gear sets knowing that you can 1v2+, because that is a worthwhile investment. You wont have to look at a spreadsheet yourself, but there will be people in your guild crunching the numbers on who is worth investing in.
It is all apart of the grand simulation.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
The system as described may well be the same as old school L2, but it is also the same as Archeage.
You basically just went through and said "Ashes is not using Archeages crafting system, because of these things that Steven said", and then went on to point out where Steven essentially described Archeages crafting system.
If you go back to the point of what we are discussing, I am saying that overgearing a level capped character in Ashes will be hard because it will require raid dropped materials. A discussion as to whether the system in Ashes is more like L2 or Archeage is pointless - especially when taking in to consideration the two facts that it will be based on both games, and both games were basically designed by the same people anyway.
We know top end gear in Ashes will require raid dropped materials, and will also require regular materials (as per Archeage). As such, we know that attempting to overgear a character at the level cap in Ashes will require raid dropped materials, whereas overgearing a character below the level cap will not.
I would love to see a outstanding perspective that changes my mind. I think the problem I am seeing with a lot of these arguments is that people want things to be more skill based than they are intended to be.
A lot of the perspectives I am seeing are not sandbox related. They are just, how people feel things should be.
When it comes to player skill there are two sandbox games that vastly differ with similar economic systems.
Lineage 2 for all of its greatness was not a very skill based game. It was very mathy, and click to move. Winning in L2 was really about who put in the most dedication, who had the biggest guild of no lifers.
I would bet it was 80% gear 20% or something. Not sure on the exact percentages.
Contrast that with DarkFall 1. It was like 80% skill 20% skill. Everything was aimed and everyone had access to every ability. Victory was often determined by skill, but at the high end, you still needed the best of the best gear. Even a 1% increase in power over your foe was felt when you are equally matched.
I think AoC is going to be more skill based than l2, but less than Darkfall. That is honestly a fair place to be. A mental road block I am seeing on this thread is the idea that you have to prove yourself in PvE to have good gear. That was not a feature in DF or L2. Not much was soul bound and the best stuff was not soul bound. This is not to make it easy to get gear, but easy to get back in the fight after a major loss.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
There are differences between the way that ArcheAge did it, and the way that l2 did it. Those differences are a big deal. The major difference is that in the L2 system low level mats held their value. That has a effect on both systems and the whole economy.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Indeed, you are literally asking for people to disagree with you. So I would hope it's fine.
From a roleplay perspective the gear makes little sense regardless. I mean theft when you're asleep for example. Say your prized gear gets stolen and pawned off (Not possible, I know, but bare with me)
Now suddenly you are 40~50 percent weaker. The same character. Which means that your character never progressed. That's why I don't like gear to be too big an influence. I want character progression.
How does any of this matter? You hardly run around naked if you tone down the effect gear has. Meaning upkeep is still a thing. So how exactly does it matter in terms of the argument? Both systems can have the same upkeep, making it an absolute non-issue.
@Katak
That is not a bad summary. It's not only that I don't like the gear treadmill at end-game. It's also that I think it's a form of fake character progression. My character doesn't actually get stronger. Which will become even more evident as gear can and will break permanently.
On a side note. The reason why comparisons with EVE don't work. Is because the ships and weapons themselves are progression in a space game. It's less character based and more ship-based.
It's like when I total my race-car one that I build up towards, I know that I won't be able to get from A to B as fast.
But if I am running, and my sponsor gives me some special shoes that somehow increase my performance, even a little. I still have to progress myself to stay fast. Meaning, if I lose the gear, I can still feel the difference like. Yea, all this training did make me become faster.
They did in Archeage as well.
You used iron to make low level gear, you used iron to make high level gear. You just needed a whole lot more of it, and also needed other components to make end game gear.
I am open to having my mind changed. I promise, I did create this thread hoping to see a unique perspective, but I have not felt moved yet. I apologize if I am coming off as a troll.
I can offer you this as a from a "role play perspective" example. Depending on the writer, some characters are just trash without their kit. Batman is nothing, without his kit (Depending on the writer). The same could be said for fantasy characters, I have not been into LOTR for a while, but I don't think Gandalf's potential was as great without his staff or whatever nonsense he needed to cast whatever spells. It is a matter of who is telling the story and creating to world. I think The stated percentages are a fair middle ground to aim for.
[/quote]
This goes back to the reason why gear should be where they are aiming in terms of player power. You want people to feel it when they don't have gear. If you tone it down too much, people will run around naked. If you strike the wrong balance and people profit from running around ganking noobs naked for the resources they drop. That is a huge related issue. This is why you often don't see people ganking in EVE, the salvage is not worth the cost of the ship needed to just go into high sec and kill noobs.
Maybe another thing that would help you understand my argument is to not think of your gear as part of your character and more of a tool your character has access to. It is common in sandbox MMOs to have cheap sets of armor in your bank ready for situations that you know are going to be risky.
Both systems don't have the same upkeep.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Item_repair
"Over enchanting an item comes with the risk of durability loss."
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Like I said. I am not a big fan of ArcheAge. I wanted to be. The balance of how valuable those low level materials felt off to me. I also remember that ArcheAge was a insanely fast leveling experience compared to Lineage 2. This also made it make less since for anyone to invest in low level gear, so is was not as big a part of the economy. The "45 days" to cap in AoC, means that people may want to invest in a over enchanted set for each tier when it comes time to level alts. This is fantastic for the economy.
Another factor was that ArcheAge actually gave you gear while leveling. Lineage 2 was very very stingy with giving you actual items. We know this is not likely to be the case in AoC, because there will be quests that give gear, and the "Side grades" from the religion system. Kind of a point against me, but I just have to have faith that quest items and side grade gear will not be nearly as good as crafted gear. Otherwise it could undermine the gear economy. Lineage 2 actually introduced the temporary "Shadow weapons" that lasted a set number of days and could not be enchanted. I wish I had the data for the prices of gear before and after that system was introduced. Sadly Lineage 2 is not the most well document game in the west, and I don't know a word of korean.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
This may all be true, but is besides the point here.
Other than changes due to specific developer decisions (which may or may not have had the desired results) the market in Archeage was very stable over a long period of time. Raw materials (iron, wood, stone etc) all held their value fairly stable for at least 3 years.
If you looked at the individual price of one unit of these resources it may have looked low, but these materials were used on the tens of thousands by players.
Again though, none of this is following the point that there will be raid dropped materials needed to make end game equipment, and that will not be needed for lower level gear.
That raid dropped material will also be a apart of the same market. The only exception to this may be legendary items which will exist in extremely low numbers, and are also not said to be permanent. Very few details on these items at the moment.
Unless they they change things, the way it stands, you could get in game gear purely by being a trader, crafter, or gatherer. That is okay. There should be multiple paths to end game gear. It is more reflective of reality. They have stated many times that they only want very few bound items.
The crafting recipes for end game gear will not call exclusively for raid drops, raid drops are only a part of the recipe. If they were then the systems would not be related. A lowly iron ingot, has a percentage value in the best gear in the game. This is both from lineage 2, and star wars galaxies.
Very excited about the way Steven describes combining these systems to get the best of both worlds.
It is very possible that you could be the guilds main crafter for a certain type of equipment. You will not show up to the raid, and they will bring you back all of the recipes, and mats to make whatever equipment to specialize in. In exchange for your time and energy being a full time crafter, you will find yourself in a citation where you have access to some of the best gear in the game. No raids required on your part.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Just because something technically can be put up for sale, doesn't mean it will be able to be found for sale.
Right, but it gets back to why I am so invested in this argument. It keeps the economy strong and competitive.
I also think those mats will for sure be for sale. If your guild can only score a few kills here and there, and never can get enough to finish a single recipe. You are going to want to sale some of your raid parts. Maybe you end up needing to trade parts of casted gear for tank gear. There are reasons why people would not just stock pile every raid mat. This is all great news for the low level guy chopping trees trying to get into the game. His work is valued.
When I played lineage 2, at all times I could see parts of some of the best gear in the game in giran player shops. It always felt like, even if I was not on during to hit the raid respawn, the loot was available as long as I put in the work. Getting lucky on a raid boss was just a shortcut to good loot. Most of the gear in the game came from hard work. Competing for farming spots, and trying to get the most currency per hour out of your playtime. Everything you did was valuable.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Batman's interesting, as once he became batman, his character progression stopped. The journey that led up to him becoming batman is vastly more interesting.
As far as Gandalf goes in lotr. Staves are being used as a focus for their magic. When Gandalf ascended to become Gandalf the white, his clothes changed with him. It's not these things that make him powerful.
And 40~50 percent is not at all a reasonable middle-ground. Because this is based soley on the first "tier" of raiding as it were. If you'd then do the same for the next tier. Adding 40~50 percent. It quickly gets out of hand. And if you say, well, for the second tier you can lower the percentages to say 5 percent. Then you can start there too.
The beautiful thing about a sandbox is you get to develop your character. You get to make a name for yourself, good or bad. You can lower the percentages easily. Those who want to raid, will naturally try to squeeze as much damage/healing/damage mitigation out of it as they can. This is evident in almost all MMOs I've played. Oh, this talent overal provides 2 percent more damage than this one. Guess there's no choice.
The lower percentage of your power coming from gear means I can choose to wear something I deem fashionable. Rather than just having to auto-equip whatever gives me the best. So I don't hamstring myself.
I simply cannot wrap my head around the fact that somebody would prefer their character's progression over time to be linked to gear primarily. It simply does not make sense to me.
I feel like I am having to talk in circles. I have made ZERO arguments against overenchanting or overupgrading.
If you read what I said. You'll notice that I am against these things having too big an impact. I'm not saying no impact. Something you somehow refuse to acknowledge. And I do not know why.
Your counter argument of people running around naked otherwise is totally asinine. People naturally want to try and be the best. And as any other games have shown, metas always form. And people take whatever gives them the most damage. No matter how small the advantage.
And even -if- they were to run naked. No armour at all means absolutely no protection. It's like wearing gloves when working with rabid animals for example. They offer protection from their bites and scratches. But when you take them off, you're not suddenly a wimp.
Raid tiers tend to be added less often in a well balanced sandbox. I said somewhere before that with a sandbox it is entirely possible that they make the game so well that they never need to add another raid tier. The game could stay compelling forever, if the economy and warfare mechanics are done right. This is why people are always looking for private servers of sandbox games that are on specific patches. It is not just nostalgia, it is when the games economy was the most stable.
The one thing you have going for you here is that Steven is so dead set against DPS meters. This means that it might obscure the overall effectiveness of builds enough to allow people to be creative. I think the first six months to a year will be the best time for that, but people will ultimately figure things out to the point that there is going to be elitism when it comes to builds. I don't think that adjusting the amount of power your character gets from gear is the correct way to combat this.
Your position here would make more sense for a laid back game, but the second you get a lot of people together taking the game seriously. People are going to butt heads on what is the best way to build and play a character. People are literally losing their minds in WOW right now over the covenant system. I have to accept the fact that my spec has the worst looking aesthetic in the game because it is all already figured out before launch.
Without DPS meters in AOC we at least get a grace period where the numbers are not simulated to certainty anytime Interpid makes a change to a skill.
[/quote]
I think you might have a more narrow prospective of exactly what progression is. I don't see it as just my personal skill as a human being piloting a character, and that characters ability's and equipment. It is also what connections that character/human has made with other groups of players in the game, how much work they have done to contribute to those groups and their goals, how much work I have put into their own goals, what actions they have done that makes them trust worthy to other groups. There is a whole social progression attached to your characters name.
This is all emergent gameplay that is enhanced by a more cut-throat economy. In WOW if you show up and help someone kill a rare spawn. It is what ever, that loot that drops is only valuable to you because of personal loot. You are not even going to remember the name of the guy that helped you unless it was funny or clever.
In AOC, when Ariatras helps Vheayne kill a rare spawn, we have to work together to decide what looting system is fair, and know that everything we are doing together has economic value. There is a inherent trust that you have to place in me that I will not just kill you after the fight. These successful exchanges have intangible value as character progression that can not be stored on a character sheet.
To me its not as simple as How good is my build, personal skill and gear. That the bare minimum I can do to participate in the world, The major thing I can do is network and make good connections with other players. Nobody wants to do that in a game where you can just get participation trophy's. The economy has to be a struggle. Once we start taking value out of gear, we stop needing each other as much.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Grima Wormtongue was pretty adamant that Gandalf not be allowed his staff, cos he knew that it made him a badass. Gear will always be an important part of a character's efficiency. A martial artist using a bokken won't be able to cut things as easily as if they're using a katana. They're the same martial artist with the same level of skill, but the gear is the difference between how easily they carry out their cutting. Character progression is important, for sure, but part of that is the gear you use.
I need re-read the books at some point. I forgot about this. Still @ariatras will/should argue about what degree Gandalf can can focus his magic with a better staff. It is a fair argument. If we know Gandulf has access to less abilities without his staff that is one thing, but do his spells become more powerful with a better staff? I don't know. His staff got cooler in the movie when he became Gandalf the white. I should have used a better analogy. The details of the LOTR magic system are not clear to me.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Well it's also in the show.
You right, high level wizards getting destroyed with no gear in middle earth....
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I wouldn't assume those materials will make it to the market, not in any meaningful way, at least. Getting a full set of top end gear without participating in top end content is not something that you can assume will happen. If it can be assumed, that reduces top end content to being nothing more than money making content, and kills the notion of needing to gear up for anything other than PvP.
Again, this is why Ashes shouldn't just automatically be compared to L2 - they are vastly different games, even if a small number of systems are similar. While it may well have been that way in L2, L2 was a PvP game, so making it so that the best gear was not needed in PvE fits in well.
Ashes is a PvX game, and since it is supposed to have a raid progression (even if not instanced), there is the implication that gear will matter for that progression. If that raid progression only exists to get materials out on to the market, what's the point in the whole thing?
We have both discussed our agreed fear that open world bosses might just be prize piñatas that guilds compete for due to the nature of everything being in open world. I think you are right about all of this. Bosses are just there to make money, and fund endless wars.
It looks more like lineage 2 to me man. Maybe I am wrong about this, but I don't see a single system on the wiki that looks like meaningful PvE content. I have not heard any passion in Stevens voice about PvE in interviews, but when he talks about guilds killing each other for resources he lights up. I have stated in other threads with you that I love progression raiding. I just don't see it yet. All is see is systems designed to get players to kill each other for money.
To me the whole point is to socialize, and get deeply involved in all of the intertwined subsystems. To from a bond with a guild and try to get to the top, maybe become mayor. Once that happens, we stay on top, and if we lose, we take it back. We make friends along the way, and at no point are we waiting six months for the next raid tier, we are too busy trying to obtain/maintain the current tier.
I don't see the PvX yet. I suggested that they use the mapping system from PoE to have the instanced PvE along side the world boss loot fest we know about so far. You seemed to like that idea.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Stevens passion is PvP, for sure.
Thing is, this game more than any other requires a somewhat stable population. I've never heard anyone suggest a PvP game is able to maintain a stable population - but a solid PvE game is.
Steven knows this, without a doubt. Since his passion is PvP, that is no doubt why literally all of his senior staff have backgrounds primarily in PvE focused MMO's.
That is no accident.
In terms of PvE content, I make no assumptions other than what has been stated. It has been stated that they intend to have a raid progression of sorts, and it has been stated that top end gear will require materials from these encounters.
That doesn't sound to me like L2, even if some other aspects of the game do.
It's funny that even with your martial artists analogy it doesn't work. Whilst it is true that cutting things is easier with a knife than it is with a spoon. The ability to cut isn't the primary metric to determine power. The better martial artist would still win if they were to fight. Assuming momentarily that the lesser martial artist uses the katana.
What it does is it helps his chances. It doesn't dictate his chances.
Like I mentioned earlier. I want my character progression to be like a pie chart.
This includes
That is part of the chart. This chart being dominated by one thing does not sound appealing. If I want gear to be the influence on how I perform, I can just as well stay in WoW. Which I have done for the last fifteen years. Because WoW at least offers something in spades that no other mmo does. RP. Sure there's some RP in ESO, but it's an absolute joke in comparison. Ashes won't even commit to a simple thing as putting RP label on a server. So I do not have high hopes there. Besides ESO has the same problem in regards to gear.
You use Lineage 2 as an example a lot. I've never played it.
Can you do me a small favour, for I am genuinely curious.
Find three daggers the max best dagger there is. One of the first max level daggers you get and a dagger say 10 levels lower.
Give me their stats I am very curious how big a leap they give.
And, if both martial artists were attacking a bog-standard Goblin? Which would fight it better? The one with the bokken or the one with the katana?
PvP MMOs do have the problem of lower populations, but the players tend to be more invest and stay for longer. I think the issue is that no one has monetized a good PvP MMO correctly yet. No box price and cash shop skins may work(but I think that would work for most games.
I agree, I like PvE a lot and want to see it do well. Having Jeffrey Bard on the team is a solid choice.
"Raid progression of sorts", the raider in me has not been excited by AOC yet. I want to, but I just don't see it.
Lineage 2 had a raid progression of sorts, some bosses required half the zerg to have gear. That is progression of sorts.
I love Intrepid but, they have some statements that make me doubtful and confused. "45 days to cap, but no grinding in our ever changing dynamic node based world". So I am to think that we are going to have a epic 45 day long story that changes from node to node, server to server, and we get to be immersed to the point that it is not going to be repetitive in the slightest? Or are we going to be farming mobs in you "hunting zones" that make up "Most of the map"?
I hearing PvX Sand-park, and seeing PvP Sandbox.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I made this as a gesture of good will. Excuse the crudity of the model I did not have to make it to scale or paint it.
I had to use a calculator, as I don't know where I would get in game screen shots.
We have S grade, S 80, and S 84 all at the top, I put the base line main stat number, then the new total at over enchant +8 and +12. It should give you a full spectrum. Bare in mind that maxing out that last one is not in any way economical for most people.
I did not give you this information so that we can bog ourselves down in the mud of percentages of power again. I just wanted to satisfy your curiosity
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.