As a response to my own comment, if Ashes ends up falling on the side of being mostly a sandbox style of gearing, and the loot from bosses serves as the materials for repairing/crafting good items, then I would hope twinking would absolutely be allowed. In a sandbox setting time is money. I would absolutely want to be able to invest heavily into an alt to speed its progression along so it can start yielding those sweet endgame gains. I don't think it should be to a degree that you can simply ignore leveling and trivialize other peoples experience, but a healthy 15-30% or so seems reasonable (depending on how much you spend).
As far as Gandalf goes in lotr. Staves are being used as a focus for their magic. When Gandalf ascended to become Gandalf the white, his clothes changed with him. It's not these things that make him powerful.
Grima Wormtongue was pretty adamant that Gandalf not be allowed his staff, cos he knew that it made him a badass. Gear will always be an important part of a character's efficiency. A martial artist using a bokken won't be able to cut things as easily as if they're using a katana. They're the same martial artist with the same level of skill, but the gear is the difference between how easily they carry out their cutting. Character progression is important, for sure, but part of that is the gear you use.
It's funny that even with your martial artists analogy it doesn't work. Whilst it is true that cutting things is easier with a knife than it is with a spoon. The ability to cut isn't the primary metric to determine power. The better martial artist would still win if they were to fight. Assuming momentarily that the lesser martial artist uses the katana.
What it does is it helps his chances. It doesn't dictate his chances.
And, if both martial artists were attacking a bog-standard Goblin? Which would fight it better? The one with the bokken or the one with the katana?
Both would win, probably. The Katana would just be more effective. As for who fights better. Depends on their skill. And it depends on what you would call better. Will the bokken be less effective? Well, if we ignore armour types and stuff. Of course it would. That's why they are used for practice over a katana.
What it means is, with equal skill, the katana would most likely win most of the time. As the "gear" is better. But it isn't insurmountable. And that's the whole frigging point.
Going to take this time to recommend FFXIV and DDO to you. Both have rich lore and dedicated RP community's. Not saying AOC can't, but you got two years to kill before AOC gets sorted. You might like them.
Good news. I already play and RP on FFXIV. But sadly it's based on a roulette system. All the RP is scheduled. I heard the US server is more---free flowing I guess. But I haven't been able to make a character on there. So I can only speak about the EU one
I made this as a gesture of good will. Excuse the crudity of the model I did not have to make it to scale or paint it.
HPR05Y0.png
I had to use a calculator, as I don't know where I would get in game screen shots.
We have S grade, S 80, and S 84 all at the top, I put the base line main stat number, then the new total at over enchant +8 and +12. It should give you a full spectrum. Bare in mind that maxing out that last one is not in any way economical for most people.
I did not give you this information so that we can bog ourselves down in the mud of percentages of power again. I just wanted to satisfy your curiosity
Don't worry, it wasn't a trap or anything daft like that. The +12 seems like it's very hard to get. We spoke about RO earlier. Is it similar? That each time it has an increasingly high chance to break?
You went above and beyond, so thanks for that. I was looking for base values first and foremost
I do enjoy the fact that the HP values do not change.
Thank you by the way. I tried googling for this, but without knowledge of the game, most of the terms used meant nothing to me.
A system like this seems fine to me, where we disagree is simply the effectiveness of those things. The jumps in damage as it were. Increases in damage is fine, if not desirable. I just think it's too much. Especially when you consider they plan to add content post launch. Which usually translates to a lot more of those increases.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Play the game.
Then we will know if it's actually a sandpark.
And we will know if there is "endgame" twinking - which is unlikely since Ashes doesn't have an endgame.
(But, we have to play to know whether Ashes can actually achieve not having an endgame.)
Don't worry, it wasn't a trap or anything daft like that. The +12 seems like it's very hard to get. We spoke about RO earlier. Is it similar? That each time it has an increasingly high chance to break?
You went above and beyond, so thanks for that. I was looking for base values first and foremost
I do enjoy the fact that the HP values do not change.
Thank you by the way. I tried googling for this, but without knowledge of the game, most of the terms used meant nothing to me.
A system like this seems fine to me, where we disagree is simply the effectiveness of those things. The jumps in damage as it were. Increases in damage is fine, if not desirable. I just think it's too much. Especially when you consider they plan to add content post launch. Which usually translates to a lot more of those increases.
It is kinda like RO, If I could remember RO better I would speak more on it, but it has been like 14-15 years.
The HP values would change if I added armor. Weapons only give Patk, Matk, and cast/atk speed. L2 did not have a very convoluted stat system.
We have two years for them to get the tuning down. If they make their target player power percentage at launch that is fine, but still maintaining that over the life time of a MMO across all specs is going to be a challenge. When I played l2 people the first time s80 and s84 was not even a thing. People were running around near cap in high B or A grade, because that is what was affordable. Just because S-grade existed did not mean people were expected to have it. It was more something for you to work for, or something for clans to invest in for key players as a group effort.
Power creep could be slowed down or done with care. I wish we could see some gear numbers for AoC like the ones I gave you.
Play the game.
Then we will know if it's actually a sandpark.
And we will know if there is "endgame" twinking - which is unlikely since Ashes doesn't have an endgame.
(But, we have to play to know whether Ashes can actually achieve not having an endgame.)
On one side it's nice to be able to use the stuff you worked for as you see fit.
On other side, i prefer to be given the choice if i see fit or not to use it, which is more trickier since it rely also on the masses behaviour. I might decide to go the "slow" way and enjoy re-doing or discovering alternative paths with alts without said boost, but if i am facerolled everytime by bored twinks ye, not fun. Maybe limit the stats to match lvl when ppl do PvP and then for PvE give lil side bonuses, nothing "God mode" like but to honor the effort. Balance its hard to achieve, anyhow learned long time ago, that we can't please everyone, in any case there will be disappointment, we can only try our best to be fair.
Keep up the good work!!!
When the flame of life glimmers in the wind, my hand shall guard it
When the weak waver on their path, my spirit shall be their guide
When the strong fall to darkness, my heart shall be their beacon
Don't worry, it wasn't a trap or anything daft like that. The +12 seems like it's very hard to get. We spoke about RO earlier. Is it similar? That each time it has an increasingly high chance to break?
You went above and beyond, so thanks for that. I was looking for base values first and foremost
I do enjoy the fact that the HP values do not change.
Thank you by the way. I tried googling for this, but without knowledge of the game, most of the terms used meant nothing to me.
A system like this seems fine to me, where we disagree is simply the effectiveness of those things. The jumps in damage as it were. Increases in damage is fine, if not desirable. I just think it's too much. Especially when you consider they plan to add content post launch. Which usually translates to a lot more of those increases.
It is kinda like RO, If I could remember RO better I would speak more on it, but it has been like 14-15 years.
The HP values would change if I added armor. Weapons only give Patk, Matk, and cast/atk speed. L2 did not have a very convoluted stat system.
We have two years for them to get the tuning down. If they make their target player power percentage at launch that is fine, but still maintaining that over the life time of a MMO across all specs is going to be a challenge. When I played l2 people the first time s80 and s84 was not even a thing. People were running around near cap in high B or A grade, because that is what was affordable. Just because S-grade existed did not mean people were expected to have it. It was more something for you to work for, or something for clans to invest in for key players as a group effort.
Power creep could be slowed down or done with care. I wish we could see some gear numbers for AoC like the ones I gave you.
And if the upper echelons of gear are indeed that rare, then it's good. But I highly doubt it'll be really rare. Which is a shame, because you'd think there would only be "one boss" and when it's dead. That's that. And to reflect that have one of its items per server, but give said item considerable power, that's fine. But games are played differently now then they were when L2 came out. I've witnessed it first hand only once. WoW classic and vanilla wow back then. Having gold was rare. Now everyone's having a lot of gold, and even frehsly dinged 60's have their epic mount, which many of my friends didn't get until TBC was announced.
If they can somehow make gear that is that powerful very rare. Then it's okay. Sort of like a player legend on a server, y'know? But when entire guilds/groups can get it. Tone down the power.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
How meaningful can "rare" gear be when a primary focus of the game is objective-based PvP in Caravans and Sieges?
Rare gear cannot have so great an impact that a handful present at a siege will guarantee a win.
And if the upper echelons of gear are indeed that rare, then it's good. But I highly doubt it'll be really rare. Which is a shame, because you'd think there would only be "one boss" and when it's dead. That's that. And to reflect that have one of its items per server, but give said item considerable power, that's fine. But games are played differently now then they were when L2 came out. I've witnessed it first hand only once. WoW classic and vanilla wow back then. Having gold was rare. Now everyone's having a lot of gold, and even frehsly dinged 60's have their epic mount, which many of my friends didn't get until TBC was announced.
If they can somehow make gear that is that powerful very rare. Then it's okay. Sort of like a player legend on a server, y'know? But when entire guilds/groups can get it. Tone down the power.
If I had to speculate, and this is pure speculation. I would imagine that at launch. You could progress a node to the max rank, this would give you access to the first end-game tier of gearset's "Hunting grounds". These would be farmable without a lock out or reset. Then you would caravan, process, and then craft the base capped gear. From there you could start over enchanting. That would be the first real entry level tier, and it would take a lot of time for people to actually break into it. While that tier exists, there would be one tier higher, that drops from raid bosses. This is the big boy stuff that guilds are going to be working months on end to compete for. An average player will not be expected to have it for a long time. Over enchanting it would be super dangerous.
For most people end-game would be over-enchanting that first capped tier, or even the "leveling" tier right before it. It would be more economical. You have to remember that "Most" of the world is a "Hunting Ground". Inside a hunting zone you are flagged for PvP. The game wants us to establish node loyalty and compete for resources.
I base this speculation off how my own biased interpretation of the wiki. What is funny is that L2 is not even my favorite MMO. it might be 3 or 4 in my top 5.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well, depends on how long that node remains a Metropolis.
And, it's not really endgame if that first Metropolis is some other race than your own.
I don't have much experience regarding this but I believe as long as it is within an acceptable range (a level 15 equipping a level 20 gear), it should be fine.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What gearsets are available from a Metropolis will be dependent upon the node Type and the race governing the Metropolis. So... lots of people won't have the access to the gearsets they want from the first Metropolis.
Which means there will be people striving to knock that Metropolis down so that a different race governs the Metropolis or even a different Node (type) in the region becomes a Metropolis.
We don't know how long that first Metro will remain.
Just getting one Node to a Metro is not endgame.
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SockskiMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I vote no on overgearing.
I haven't really experienced twinking with regards to putting higher level gear on a lower level character, but i've played Guild Wars 2 where you could get high level gear to use on an alt, but the gear comes with a minimum level requirement, so that alt can't use the lvl 40 gear until they are level 40. That kind of mechanic seems fine, but i don't think that's the kind of twinking you mean...because those alts are wearing appropriate gear, they just aren't the character that earned the gear.
When it comes to having characters walk around in gear that is above them, i really dislike that idea. I can appreciate the desire to make an alt's progression faster, but there must be a different solution. If lvl 10 alts can walk around in lvl 15, 20, or higher armor, then that ruins the playing field of what's expected of a lvl 10 character. If you're a lvl 10 character wearing lvl 10 gear, and you're underpowered because lots of people are running around on their alts in lvl 20 gear, that just feels bad, and you shouldn't feel bad when you're wearing appropriate gear! Letting high volumes of people supersede the baseline changes the baseline and leaves those that are doing "what they're supposed to" at a disadvantage.
I also agree with what a number of other people have said, including for example the argument that from an immersion standpoint, a lvl 10 character shouldn't just know how to effectively use high level gear. In real life, I'm not good at carving, and if i buy a super awesome professional carving knife, i won't know how to make good use of its quality. So maybe IF you allow characters to wear higher gear, the stats just dampen until the character is the proper level...but that sounds more complicated than it's worth. Isn't the rarity (common vs. rare vs. legendary) of gear meant to be how people's gear differentiate in quality anyways? If someone wants to gear up their alt, just get them higher rarity gear, instead of higher level gear. Then that lvl 10 can run around in rare lvl 10 armor, and the other level 10 that's running around in common lvl 10 armor can both be around the same baseline.
Gear is a primary driving force to keep people playing the game. This is proven by WOW and the longevity it has. The content isn't amazing and if anything it has become too simple. The lore may play a big role in why people stay on WOW but the number one factor that is consistent in everything that comes out is the sheer number of gear and the upgrades. The gear is the REASON why borderlands was created the way it was and why it was also so popular. As much as people don't want a gear grind, it is necessary to maintain a long term mmorpg. I love the idea that gear will NOT drop from bosses but instead materials will. This forces professions to be viable all the time! If this game was land grab only where gear is not a factor, I guarantee it stays a small game and I wouldn't play it for long.
Gear is a primary driving force to keep people playing the game. This is proven by WOW and the longevity it has. The content isn't amazing and if anything it has become too simple. The lore may play a big role in why people stay on WOW but the number one factor that is consistent in everything that comes out is the sheer number of gear and the upgrades. The gear is the REASON why borderlands was created the way it was and why it was also so popular. As much as people don't want a gear grind, it is necessary to maintain a long term mmorpg. I love the idea that gear will NOT drop from bosses but instead materials will. This forces professions to be viable all the time! If this game was land grab only where gear is not a factor, I guarantee it stays a small game and I wouldn't play it for long.
Everything I said in the founding post on this thread agrees and reaffirms that gear is the primary driving force. It is one of the main pillars of my argument. So, yes agreed.
I am glad that you are into the idea that materials dropping from bosses is a good idea, that is a big mental block for some people, because not a lot of MMOs are doing it.
I would say it is more of a land grab where gear is needed to succeed in attacking/defending in land grab attempts, and land is needed to get better gear.
I can say, as a connoisseur of many types of MMO, if my interpretation of the game is correct, it will be fun long term. It ain't gonna kill WOW, but the good news is that blizzard is doing a great job of killing WOW on their own.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Gear is not the primary driving force for Ashes... and if it is, the game has failed from jump.
I am a huge proponent for overgearing. Saying that, there must me balance in the game.
Gear that is level locked is pointless at low levels. (It’s out grown quickly and no sentimental value)
Overgearing encourages players to take risks and exciting challenges. (if you can get something that’s cool and lasts you’ll try for it)
Overgearing helps with immersion. (I can put anything on in RL.
I agree with some of the posts. Overgearing could hurt pvp at low levels. This can be negated by placing a penalty for using gear over your level. The penalty wouldn’t negate all the bonuses for using it, just not make the toon OP.
I would go into more depth but many people have already hit all the points in favor for it.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I just get gear for fashion
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Overgearing isn't even a thing for endgame. That is just called endgame gear progression.
Aside from the misuse of the terminology, the simple fact is, some people like the gear treadmill, some don't. Some play WoW because it has a gear treadmill, some play in spite of it, and some don't really care either way probably. It's been a few years since I looked at the numbers, but it was only 30ish percent of the playerbase in WoW that even raided, so gear progression was clearly not the primary driving force for the majority of the playerbase. It's correlation, not causation, and not a narrative supported by the numbers. Back in the day, before LFR and all that, the percentage was way lower, I am pretty sure.
Whether it's a sandbox or themepark MMO also has no real bearing on this. Both game types can have the gear treadmill as the primary endgame, and both types can have something else as primary endgame.
At any rate, there are plenty of successful MMOs that don't (or didn't) rely on endgame gear progression as the primary driver. In fact, if we go oldschool a bit and look at Dark Age of Camelot, they tried going for more gear-driven progression with the Trials of Atlantis expansion, and it almost killed the game. They had to make classic servers without it, because of the outcry. Realm vs. Realm warfare was the endgame, and people liked it like that. Gear was a factor in DAoC too, but the gear chase didn't distract much from the real gameplay.
If you like the gear treadmill, that's fine. I just hope AOC doesn't have it, because I don't like it. I would much rather they stick to the player-driven node content as the primary endgame. The game will do excellently fine if they make that as promised.
Aside from the misuse of the terminology, the simple fact is, some people like the gear treadmill, some don't. Some play WoW because it has a gear treadmill, some play in spite of it, and some don't really care either way probably. It's been a few years since I looked at the numbers, but it was only 30ish percent of the playerbase in WoW that even raided, so gear progression was clearly not the primary driving force for the majority of the playerbase. It's correlation, not causation, and not a narrative supported by the numbers. Back in the day, before LFR and all that, the percentage was way lower, I am pretty sure.
It is not about gear treadmills or not, It's about driving players to do the social activates in the game.
I don't get the feeling you read my original post.
Whether it's a sandbox or themepark MMO also has no real bearing on this. Both game types can have the gear treadmill as the primary endgame, and both types can have something else as primary endgame.
Not true, In a themepark you get the gear once and log until the next big patch. In a sandbox you are constantly trying to maintain and improve your own gear, and help your guild do the same regardless of the patch.
At any rate, there are plenty of successful MMOs that don't (or didn't) rely on endgame gear progression as the primary driver. In fact, if we go oldschool a bit and look at Dark Age of Camelot, they tried going for more gear-driven progression with the Trials of Atlantis expansion, and it almost killed the game. They had to make classic servers without it, because of the outcry. Realm vs. Realm warfare was the endgame, and people liked it like that. Gear was a factor in DAoC too, but the gear chase didn't distract much from the real gameplay.
DAoC is a major regret of mine, as I never got to play it in its prime. I will have to take your word for this.
If you like the gear treadmill, that's fine. I just hope AOC don't have it, because I don't like it. I would much rather they stick to the player-driven node content as the primary endgame.
I don't like gear treadmills. I like when things have value and bring people together. Over enchanting is a system that is at the heart of that. I don't want to see it devalued because peoples feelings for how gear should work are based off of the treadmill mentality.
EVE is a great example of a sandbox that has stayed relevant with ship(gear) being a major part of the economy for years, and yet the game has no "ship treadmill". I have said a few times in this thread that people may not go for the best gear, but instead for the most economical gear. End the end however, the over enchanting system used in leveling is tied to the end-game gearing system.
Not true, In a themepark you get the gear once and log until the next big patch. In a sandbox you are constantly trying to maintain and improve your own gear, and help your guild do the same regardless of the patch.
I know there are a lot different definitions of sandbox and themepark, but that is certainly not one of the ones I have heard before, nor one I agree with.
One of the better definitions I like is themepark games are those in which each goal and the most optimal path to achieving that goal are clearly laid out. Sandbox games are those in which neither the goals nor the most optimal paths are made apparent.
Gear can easily be the endgame focus (or not) in either system, or mix of the two.
EVE is a great example of a sandbox that has stayed relevant with ship(gear) being a major part of the economy for years, and yet the game has no "ship treadmill". I have said a few times in this thread that people may not go for the best gear, but instead for the most economical gear. End the end however, the over enchanting system used in leveling is tied to the end-game gearing system.
I think you are either moving the goal posts here though, or just changing your position from OP. The endgame in Eve (and most sandboxy games) are what you make it. Gear/ships can be the endgame if you choose to, but for most of nul-sec, gear/ships is just a means to an end, which is territory control, wars and politics. You don't overgear or overenchant or anything like that in Eve, you just replace what is lost. Gear/ships being important or a necessary evil, depending on how you see it, is a completely different thing than gear/ships being the primary motivation or driver for the game.
In games like AoC and WoW and many others, where gear generally isn't lost, if gear is the primary force for players, you have to have a gear treadmill, because you can never just let people have the best gear and never give them the option to upgrade. People will just leave the game. Sure, you also can make the best gear so hard to obtain it's virtually impossible to get. People will leave the game then too. Same goes for enchanting. If AOC enchanting is as punishing as the TET and PEN roulettes in BDO, people will absolutely leave AOC as well.
Now, if the node system, with all the building up and politics and wars and economics and religions and societies, is fun and engaging, then gear, while important, becomes something to acquire and strive for, sure, but it will not the driving force for the endgame.
I know there are a lot different definitions of sandbox and themepark, but that is certainly not one of the ones I have heard before, nor one I agree with.
I was being a bit reductive, sure. I was not offering a complete definition, but describing a quality of those to types of MMOs. You are free to disagree.
One of the better definitions I like is themepark games are those in which each goal and the most optimal path to achieving that goal are clearly laid out. Sandbox games are those in which neither the goals nor the most optimal paths are made apparent.
Gear can easily be the endgame focus (or not) in either system, or mix of the two.
That is one way to look at it. I will agree that I prefer to choose my own paths, and don't like to be told what to do. Not my favorite definition.
I think you are either moving the goal posts here though, or just changing your position from OP. The endgame in Eve (and most sandboxy games) are what you make it. Gear/ships can be the endgame if you choose to, but for most of nul-sec, gear/ships is just a means to an end, which is territory control, wars and politics. You don't overgear or overenchant or anything like that in Eve, you just replace what is lost. Gear/ships being important or a necessary evil, depending on how you see it, is a completely different thing than gear/ships being the primary motivation or driver for the game.
What I have been saying is that the over gearing system, is the same system that is used for endgame gearing. Both literally in that it is the Over enchanting system that is used to increase the effectiveness of gear, but also in the boarder sense of the game. Someone at cap trying to over enchant is sword to get an edge on the competition he faces, and someone that is level 30 trying to twink their armor. These two people are more than likely competing for some of the same resources from the economy. This is because low level materials can be refined for high level materials.
Unless your personal end game is to sit in town and RP in a tavern, you are most likely going to want to have good gear to do what ever goals you come up with. Because nearly ever goal in the game is going to require gear. I stated that "Overgearing is the endgame". Is it a philosophically complete assessment of the end game, no. It is however a valid conclusion when it comes to most end game activities.
In games like AoC and WoW and many others, where gear generally isn't lost, if gear is the primary force for players, you have to have a gear treadmill, because you can never just let people have the best gear and never give them the option to upgrade. People will just leave the game. Sure, you also can make the best gear so hard to obtain it's virtually impossible to get. People will leave the game then too. Same goes for enchanting. If AOC enchanting is as punishing as the TET and PEN roulettes in BDO, people will absolutely leave AOC as well.
I don't think this is as true in the context of a sandbox. I also think AOC is going to be more about long term rewards for long term players. I did not give BDO the time of day because other than it's character creator, it looked like they were leaning into a making another hot mess like ArcheAge.
I base my assessment of AOC off of this page right here.
Of the four games on the inspiration list, the one I played the least was ArcheAge. The reason why is because ArcheAge did not learn its lesson from Lineage 2. They ran Lineage 2 into the ground, to the point that Private servers set in an earlier era of the game were more popular. Most of the bad decisions were things that devalued the effort of the players, and made gear easy for casual players to get. Giving players catch up gear, reducing the time to level. This wrecked the economy and took a lot of life out of the game. This was carried over into ArcheAge. All of the Ships, Caravans, and player housing. Was not going to save ArcheAge. The labor system and cash shop were just bad decisions.
I played Lineage 2 when it was compelling. I see AOC basing its gear economy off of what made Lineage 2 so good. I don't want to seem them get it wrong.
I just don't want to see AOC share the same fate. This is a hard genre to get right.
Now, if the node system, with all the building up and politics and wars and economics and religions and societies, is fun and engaging, then gear, while important, becomes something to acquire and strive for, sure, but it will not the driving force for the endgame.
You just spelled it out. I think that those activities when combined together will keep the gear economy the driving force of the end game. Lineage 2 had way less, and was fun for years.
I mean, if EVE and WOW decided today that they were both going to never update again, which game do you think lasts longer?
Not true, In a themepark you get the gear once and log until the next big patch. In a sandbox you are constantly trying to maintain and improve your own gear, and help your guild do the same regardless of the patch.
A good themepark has the next raid zone ready to go live before players are completely finished with the previous ones.
To be fair, few games pull this off, but I don't understand why WoW players ever put up with the rediculous time between content drops in that game. That game is by no means representitive of themepark MMO's.
Not that I am saying Ashes should be more themepark, just that this is not a valid criticism against themepark MMO's - it is a criticism against specific developers.
Comments
Woooooo! Go Jeff go!
Both would win, probably. The Katana would just be more effective. As for who fights better. Depends on their skill. And it depends on what you would call better. Will the bokken be less effective? Well, if we ignore armour types and stuff. Of course it would. That's why they are used for practice over a katana.
What it means is, with equal skill, the katana would most likely win most of the time. As the "gear" is better. But it isn't insurmountable. And that's the whole frigging point.
Good news. I already play and RP on FFXIV. But sadly it's based on a roulette system. All the RP is scheduled. I heard the US server is more---free flowing I guess. But I haven't been able to make a character on there. So I can only speak about the EU one
Don't worry, it wasn't a trap or anything daft like that. The +12 seems like it's very hard to get. We spoke about RO earlier. Is it similar? That each time it has an increasingly high chance to break?
You went above and beyond, so thanks for that. I was looking for base values first and foremost
I do enjoy the fact that the HP values do not change.
Thank you by the way. I tried googling for this, but without knowledge of the game, most of the terms used meant nothing to me.
A system like this seems fine to me, where we disagree is simply the effectiveness of those things. The jumps in damage as it were. Increases in damage is fine, if not desirable. I just think it's too much. Especially when you consider they plan to add content post launch. Which usually translates to a lot more of those increases.
Then we will know if it's actually a sandpark.
And we will know if there is "endgame" twinking - which is unlikely since Ashes doesn't have an endgame.
(But, we have to play to know whether Ashes can actually achieve not having an endgame.)
Great scott! I missed that the first time through! Hahaha
Well played, sir.
It is kinda like RO, If I could remember RO better I would speak more on it, but it has been like 14-15 years.
The HP values would change if I added armor. Weapons only give Patk, Matk, and cast/atk speed. L2 did not have a very convoluted stat system.
We have two years for them to get the tuning down. If they make their target player power percentage at launch that is fine, but still maintaining that over the life time of a MMO across all specs is going to be a challenge. When I played l2 people the first time s80 and s84 was not even a thing. People were running around near cap in high B or A grade, because that is what was affordable. Just because S-grade existed did not mean people were expected to have it. It was more something for you to work for, or something for clans to invest in for key players as a group effort.
Power creep could be slowed down or done with care. I wish we could see some gear numbers for AoC like the ones I gave you.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Insightful.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
On other side, i prefer to be given the choice if i see fit or not to use it, which is more trickier since it rely also on the masses behaviour. I might decide to go the "slow" way and enjoy re-doing or discovering alternative paths with alts without said boost, but if i am facerolled everytime by bored twinks ye, not fun. Maybe limit the stats to match lvl when ppl do PvP and then for PvE give lil side bonuses, nothing "God mode" like but to honor the effort. Balance its hard to achieve, anyhow learned long time ago, that we can't please everyone, in any case there will be disappointment, we can only try our best to be fair.
Keep up the good work!!!
When the weak waver on their path, my spirit shall be their guide
When the strong fall to darkness, my heart shall be their beacon
And if the upper echelons of gear are indeed that rare, then it's good. But I highly doubt it'll be really rare. Which is a shame, because you'd think there would only be "one boss" and when it's dead. That's that. And to reflect that have one of its items per server, but give said item considerable power, that's fine. But games are played differently now then they were when L2 came out. I've witnessed it first hand only once. WoW classic and vanilla wow back then. Having gold was rare. Now everyone's having a lot of gold, and even frehsly dinged 60's have their epic mount, which many of my friends didn't get until TBC was announced.
If they can somehow make gear that is that powerful very rare. Then it's okay. Sort of like a player legend on a server, y'know? But when entire guilds/groups can get it. Tone down the power.
Rare gear cannot have so great an impact that a handful present at a siege will guarantee a win.
If I had to speculate, and this is pure speculation. I would imagine that at launch. You could progress a node to the max rank, this would give you access to the first end-game tier of gearset's "Hunting grounds". These would be farmable without a lock out or reset. Then you would caravan, process, and then craft the base capped gear. From there you could start over enchanting. That would be the first real entry level tier, and it would take a lot of time for people to actually break into it. While that tier exists, there would be one tier higher, that drops from raid bosses. This is the big boy stuff that guilds are going to be working months on end to compete for. An average player will not be expected to have it for a long time. Over enchanting it would be super dangerous.
For most people end-game would be over-enchanting that first capped tier, or even the "leveling" tier right before it. It would be more economical. You have to remember that "Most" of the world is a "Hunting Ground". Inside a hunting zone you are flagged for PvP. The game wants us to establish node loyalty and compete for resources.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Hunting_grounds
I base this speculation off how my own biased interpretation of the wiki. What is funny is that L2 is not even my favorite MMO. it might be 3 or 4 in my top 5.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
And, it's not really endgame if that first Metropolis is some other race than your own.
There does not appear to be a racial restriction on what nodes you can join.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I want to say:
DDO ,FFXI, Darkfall, Lineage 2, Wildstar.
The order really depends on my mood, and what play style I am missing at the time.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Maybe I did misread you. I read this back a few times. I am still not 100% sure what you mean.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Which means there will be people striving to knock that Metropolis down so that a different race governs the Metropolis or even a different Node (type) in the region becomes a Metropolis.
We don't know how long that first Metro will remain.
Just getting one Node to a Metro is not endgame.
I haven't really experienced twinking with regards to putting higher level gear on a lower level character, but i've played Guild Wars 2 where you could get high level gear to use on an alt, but the gear comes with a minimum level requirement, so that alt can't use the lvl 40 gear until they are level 40. That kind of mechanic seems fine, but i don't think that's the kind of twinking you mean...because those alts are wearing appropriate gear, they just aren't the character that earned the gear.
When it comes to having characters walk around in gear that is above them, i really dislike that idea. I can appreciate the desire to make an alt's progression faster, but there must be a different solution. If lvl 10 alts can walk around in lvl 15, 20, or higher armor, then that ruins the playing field of what's expected of a lvl 10 character. If you're a lvl 10 character wearing lvl 10 gear, and you're underpowered because lots of people are running around on their alts in lvl 20 gear, that just feels bad, and you shouldn't feel bad when you're wearing appropriate gear! Letting high volumes of people supersede the baseline changes the baseline and leaves those that are doing "what they're supposed to" at a disadvantage.
I also agree with what a number of other people have said, including for example the argument that from an immersion standpoint, a lvl 10 character shouldn't just know how to effectively use high level gear. In real life, I'm not good at carving, and if i buy a super awesome professional carving knife, i won't know how to make good use of its quality. So maybe IF you allow characters to wear higher gear, the stats just dampen until the character is the proper level...but that sounds more complicated than it's worth. Isn't the rarity (common vs. rare vs. legendary) of gear meant to be how people's gear differentiate in quality anyways? If someone wants to gear up their alt, just get them higher rarity gear, instead of higher level gear. Then that lvl 10 can run around in rare lvl 10 armor, and the other level 10 that's running around in common lvl 10 armor can both be around the same baseline.
Everything I said in the founding post on this thread agrees and reaffirms that gear is the primary driving force. It is one of the main pillars of my argument. So, yes agreed.
I am glad that you are into the idea that materials dropping from bosses is a good idea, that is a big mental block for some people, because not a lot of MMOs are doing it.
I would say it is more of a land grab where gear is needed to succeed in attacking/defending in land grab attempts, and land is needed to get better gear.
I can say, as a connoisseur of many types of MMO, if my interpretation of the game is correct, it will be fun long term. It ain't gonna kill WOW, but the good news is that blizzard is doing a great job of killing WOW on their own.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Gear that is level locked is pointless at low levels. (It’s out grown quickly and no sentimental value)
Overgearing encourages players to take risks and exciting challenges. (if you can get something that’s cool and lasts you’ll try for it)
Overgearing helps with immersion. (I can put anything on in RL.
I agree with some of the posts. Overgearing could hurt pvp at low levels. This can be negated by placing a penalty for using gear over your level. The penalty wouldn’t negate all the bonuses for using it, just not make the toon OP.
I would go into more depth but many people have already hit all the points in favor for it.
Aside from the misuse of the terminology, the simple fact is, some people like the gear treadmill, some don't. Some play WoW because it has a gear treadmill, some play in spite of it, and some don't really care either way probably. It's been a few years since I looked at the numbers, but it was only 30ish percent of the playerbase in WoW that even raided, so gear progression was clearly not the primary driving force for the majority of the playerbase. It's correlation, not causation, and not a narrative supported by the numbers. Back in the day, before LFR and all that, the percentage was way lower, I am pretty sure.
Whether it's a sandbox or themepark MMO also has no real bearing on this. Both game types can have the gear treadmill as the primary endgame, and both types can have something else as primary endgame.
At any rate, there are plenty of successful MMOs that don't (or didn't) rely on endgame gear progression as the primary driver. In fact, if we go oldschool a bit and look at Dark Age of Camelot, they tried going for more gear-driven progression with the Trials of Atlantis expansion, and it almost killed the game. They had to make classic servers without it, because of the outcry. Realm vs. Realm warfare was the endgame, and people liked it like that. Gear was a factor in DAoC too, but the gear chase didn't distract much from the real gameplay.
If you like the gear treadmill, that's fine. I just hope AOC doesn't have it, because I don't like it. I would much rather they stick to the player-driven node content as the primary endgame. The game will do excellently fine if they make that as promised.
It is the same system in this case.
It is not about gear treadmills or not, It's about driving players to do the social activates in the game.
I don't get the feeling you read my original post.
Not true, In a themepark you get the gear once and log until the next big patch. In a sandbox you are constantly trying to maintain and improve your own gear, and help your guild do the same regardless of the patch.
DAoC is a major regret of mine, as I never got to play it in its prime. I will have to take your word for this.
I don't like gear treadmills. I like when things have value and bring people together. Over enchanting is a system that is at the heart of that. I don't want to see it devalued because peoples feelings for how gear should work are based off of the treadmill mentality.
EVE is a great example of a sandbox that has stayed relevant with ship(gear) being a major part of the economy for years, and yet the game has no "ship treadmill". I have said a few times in this thread that people may not go for the best gear, but instead for the most economical gear. End the end however, the over enchanting system used in leveling is tied to the end-game gearing system.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I know there are a lot different definitions of sandbox and themepark, but that is certainly not one of the ones I have heard before, nor one I agree with.
One of the better definitions I like is themepark games are those in which each goal and the most optimal path to achieving that goal are clearly laid out. Sandbox games are those in which neither the goals nor the most optimal paths are made apparent.
Gear can easily be the endgame focus (or not) in either system, or mix of the two.
I think you are either moving the goal posts here though, or just changing your position from OP. The endgame in Eve (and most sandboxy games) are what you make it. Gear/ships can be the endgame if you choose to, but for most of nul-sec, gear/ships is just a means to an end, which is territory control, wars and politics. You don't overgear or overenchant or anything like that in Eve, you just replace what is lost. Gear/ships being important or a necessary evil, depending on how you see it, is a completely different thing than gear/ships being the primary motivation or driver for the game.
In games like AoC and WoW and many others, where gear generally isn't lost, if gear is the primary force for players, you have to have a gear treadmill, because you can never just let people have the best gear and never give them the option to upgrade. People will just leave the game. Sure, you also can make the best gear so hard to obtain it's virtually impossible to get. People will leave the game then too. Same goes for enchanting. If AOC enchanting is as punishing as the TET and PEN roulettes in BDO, people will absolutely leave AOC as well.
Now, if the node system, with all the building up and politics and wars and economics and religions and societies, is fun and engaging, then gear, while important, becomes something to acquire and strive for, sure, but it will not the driving force for the endgame.
That is one way to look at it. I will agree that I prefer to choose my own paths, and don't like to be told what to do. Not my favorite definition.
What I have been saying is that the over gearing system, is the same system that is used for endgame gearing. Both literally in that it is the Over enchanting system that is used to increase the effectiveness of gear, but also in the boarder sense of the game. Someone at cap trying to over enchant is sword to get an edge on the competition he faces, and someone that is level 30 trying to twink their armor. These two people are more than likely competing for some of the same resources from the economy. This is because low level materials can be refined for high level materials.
Unless your personal end game is to sit in town and RP in a tavern, you are most likely going to want to have good gear to do what ever goals you come up with. Because nearly ever goal in the game is going to require gear. I stated that "Overgearing is the endgame". Is it a philosophically complete assessment of the end game, no. It is however a valid conclusion when it comes to most end game activities.
I don't think this is as true in the context of a sandbox. I also think AOC is going to be more about long term rewards for long term players. I did not give BDO the time of day because other than it's character creator, it looked like they were leaning into a making another hot mess like ArcheAge.
I base my assessment of AOC off of this page right here.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars
Of the four games on the inspiration list, the one I played the least was ArcheAge. The reason why is because ArcheAge did not learn its lesson from Lineage 2. They ran Lineage 2 into the ground, to the point that Private servers set in an earlier era of the game were more popular. Most of the bad decisions were things that devalued the effort of the players, and made gear easy for casual players to get. Giving players catch up gear, reducing the time to level. This wrecked the economy and took a lot of life out of the game. This was carried over into ArcheAge. All of the Ships, Caravans, and player housing. Was not going to save ArcheAge. The labor system and cash shop were just bad decisions.
I played Lineage 2 when it was compelling. I see AOC basing its gear economy off of what made Lineage 2 so good. I don't want to seem them get it wrong.
I just don't want to see AOC share the same fate. This is a hard genre to get right.
You just spelled it out. I think that those activities when combined together will keep the gear economy the driving force of the end game. Lineage 2 had way less, and was fun for years.
I mean, if EVE and WOW decided today that they were both going to never update again, which game do you think lasts longer?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
To be fair, few games pull this off, but I don't understand why WoW players ever put up with the rediculous time between content drops in that game. That game is by no means representitive of themepark MMO's.
Not that I am saying Ashes should be more themepark, just that this is not a valid criticism against themepark MMO's - it is a criticism against specific developers.