There is nothing "placeholder" about the animations or VFX.
I don't know if the misuse of the term stems from players not knowing what it means or having false expectations.
What you see in the video is some iteration X of the skills. Like everything iterative, they will refine it based on feedback and testing, both internally and externally. One skill might need 5 iterations to get right, another 50.
Steven have said several times that when they open for Alpha 1 and lift the NDA, they want to show stuff that is reasonably polished, based on earlier experiences when people go mental over e.g. animations that are shown 3 months into the project.
We can therefore assume that they are reasonably happy, at this point, with what we see in the video.
Genereally there have been a lot of comments on too much VFX, also in previous gameplay viedos, which Intrepid seems to be aware of and will probably scale down, at least in larger battles
The right expectation to have is: some of the skills might change radically before launch, some might end up more or less as they are now.
Giving feedback now is OK. But probably Alpha 1 will be a better time, and I expect little will change before then.
Steven said (more than once) that the animations aren't the finished product.
Debating the animation aesthetics at this point is moot ...
Yes, animations are iterative and they might get a couple of "passes" before they resemble the finished product ultimately, but still, you can kinda tell there's the tendency among the animation team to make animations that have a rather long "cast time".
It's better to give feedback on that now than to wait for them to churn out hundreds of these long ass animations. It's pretty far from "moot" any way.
Hiya! Since we'd love to gather your continued feedback on what we showed off in our early Cleric preview all in one place, I went ahead and merged a few separate threads into the original topic please feel free to keep sharing your thoughts here in the main thread!
The character modeling and all around graphics look amazing. So excited! The list of spells provided seem appropriate and expected...a bit sparkly/fireworky/yellowy, but all can be changed if necessary at a later time - many MMORPGs change those types of visuals throughout the life of the game and certainly not a deal-breaker considering the other positive aspects.
I've ALWAYS enjoyed playing CLERIC-type characters. Usually I take a priest/paladin class and incorporate as much as possible the "hammer-of-justice" feel. I do agree with some of what has been said here about the CLERIC and they're propensity for violence or death-causing abilities; or lack of. Typically we expect a "man-of -the-cloth" and "do-no-harm" kinda person, to, um, not outright attack another being. (CLERIC is a Muslim and/or Catholic CLERGY reference).
Many Prayer, Bless, Bestow Curse-type spells at low levels, where only higher levels afforded abilities such as Harm, Slay Living , Cause Wounds, Flame Strike, aka harmful spells (DnD references) and/or difficult to accomplish abilities such as Resurrection-to be saved for the most advanced CLERIC.
Spells invoking a diety's wrath such as: smite, eradicate, flames, wrath, etc. and always OF HEAVEN or THE GODS, or something divinely celestial conjure images of priestly/cleric-types and would be available in limited skill lines at mid-high level.
Also, abilities which derive from a "spirit/karma, conscious, life force-type" origin, like a Conjured Spirit Hammer (aka, the spear ability) are in line with Clerics for sure.
The class should not share abilities with other main class-types until the sub-class is chosen for sure. As I understand, A Cleric-fighter would then acquire abilities from the Fighter line. AWESOME! Meaning, fighters should not be able to resurrect players and/or heal players.
Do you feel like you have enough of a choice between opting to specialize deeply in just a few skills versus broadening your knowledge with a wider variety? Personally, OPTIONS. However, if it takes 20 skill points to reach the Resurrection ability (aka, specializing deeply) in that line and then a wide variety of other skills superficially, I'm all for it. OR let's say a Slay Living (immediate eradication of foe) which is 25 skill points deep in a line, but maybe I cannot learn resurrection since a CLERIC that slays the living has lost their favor with their god and the ability to raise the dead...that's cool.
As you and your abilities grow more powerful, what stands out to you as problematic or unexciting?
->WHAT I DON'T WANT TO SEE IS ABILITIES THAT HAVE NO EFFECT WHEN THEY'RE NEEDED THE MOST - AKA BOSS MOBS AND HIGH LEVEL MOBS. I'm so bored with that mechanic in MMORPGs. If I cast the super-duper massive kill-all spell ultimate on the 10-story tall village destroying creature from the depth of hades, I want it to work! At least with the mechanics available for resist, armor, etc. But just an arbitrary "Sorry, didn't work!" does NOT make me feel powerful and is boring. Imagine a quarterback suddenly, in the final seconds of the game, when his team is about to win, losing the ability to throw a football. What? Now, the same quarterback that makes the hail-mary pass and wins the game with seconds to spare(aka, the player who saved the day). Much more exciting and epic. One scenario is problematic and unexciting, the other powerful! The exhilaration of the game comes from success and the chance of it instead of the fear/possibility of dying and wiping.
Overall, I think the direction I've seen in videos and on the site is perfection. The node system seems, in concept, incredible. I'm excited to play and have no problem subbing a game with this much content.
This is a great introduction to spell animations. They were all very fluid and I'm not gonna go crazy and start nick-picking them like others because their appearances and speed will be tweaked.
I'm not a fan at all of how non-mobile the spellcasting looks like it's going to be
Having to stand still to cast spells is a relic of the limitations of the past in gaming and am going to be severely disappointed if that's the direction casting will go. Mobile casting akin to GW2 or ESO is far more engaging and entertaining than FF14 or WoW's standing-still casting
Though I'm basing this off of the cast animations I'm seeing, and maybe they are actually mobile, though the obvious lack of any movement in these previews doesn't bode well
I think this looks awesome. I currently main a discipline priest in WoW and am very much looking forward to the Cleric as a whole. My only feedback would be to consider turning down the sparkles, but other than that, the idea and overall concept seems to be a vindictive healing class (the spear and whip). I'm all for it!
I'm not a fan at all of how non-mobile the spellcasting looks like it's going to be
Having to stand still to cast spells is a relic of the limitations of the past in gaming and am going to be severely disappointed if that's the direction casting will go. Mobile casting akin to GW2 or ESO is far more engaging and entertaining than FF14 or WoW's standing-still casting
Though I'm basing this off of the cast animations I'm seeing, and maybe they are actually mobile, though the obvious lack of any movement in these previews doesn't bode well
Also have to take into consideration that the combat system is no where near being the full hybrid system they aim to create. I'm sure there will be spells you have to stand still to cast, but also some you can use while being mobile.
I'm not a fan at all of how non-mobile the spellcasting looks like it's going to be
Having to stand still to cast spells is a relic of the limitations of the past in gaming and am going to be severely disappointed if that's the direction casting will go. Mobile casting akin to GW2 or ESO is far more engaging and entertaining than FF14 or WoW's standing-still casting
Though I'm basing this off of the cast animations I'm seeing, and maybe they are actually mobile, though the obvious lack of any movement in these previews doesn't bode well
Also have to take into consideration that the combat system is no where near being the full hybrid system they aim to create. I'm sure there will be spells you have to stand still to cast, but also some you can use while being mobile.
That's very true, I just wish they'd clarify these kinds of things in these preview videos and stuff. Even a simple "Early version of Cleric abilities effects showcase" would help, because it would clarify that they're showing off JUST the effects, and not necessarily any gameplay mechanics
Where was it stated that you cannot move while using these abilities? Just because they are not running around while showing us the abilities does not mean that you have to stay still.
I like that they were clean casts so we can see what the animations look like.
Where was it stated that you cannot move while using these abilities? Just because they are not running around while showing us the abilities does not mean that you have to stay still.
I like that they were clean casts so we can see what the animations look like.
Well I guess you didn't take in what I said at all, but regardless in NONE of the gameplay footage so far does anyone move while casting, and if I was making an ability showcase or any gameplay footage I would include at least one scene of mobile-casting at LEAST once. But nowhere is any evidence of it found.
Plus, it's been stated before by the developers that they like having strong stationary abilities. I only hope that's the exception and not the rule.
Edit: I also would like to state that I know that this is early alpha and combat is still in it's early stages and things could change. It's just not very good to see that they've fleshed out so much but without a major aspect that people would like to see.
There was a scene of mobile casting. Steven was on his mage in the underworld; he used his blink spell while backpedaling and went backwards. I think there has been already been consideration on the mobility front. Most are just not registering what is all happening.
There was a scene of mobile casting. Steven was on his mage in the underworld; he used his blink spell while backpedaling and went backwards. I think there has been already been consideration on the mobility front. Most are just not registering what is all happening.
That's not mobile casting, that's just an instant cast mobility spell...
Next you're going to tell me WoW mages are mobile casters because they also have the blink ability.
No, they have to stand still each time they have to wait for their cast bars to fill up. That's static casting.
Compared to Guild Wars 2 and other mobile games like ESO where the casters can move while the cast bar is filling WoW mages look ridiculous.
yes and no for mana management purposes mages are static. For ripping someone a new one in pvp yes mages were very mobile, was a must to use arcanae explosion, frost nova, CoC, Blast wave, Dragon's breath, ice lance.... fire blast counterspell yep no instants...
yes and no for mana management purposes mages are static
What? That's an arbitrary rule and doesn't have to be the case. Guild Wars 2 doesn't use mana at all and mobile casters are balanced just fine. ESO has mana and mobile casters do just fine.
For ripping someone a new one in pvp yes mages were very mobile, was a must to use arcanae explosion, frost nova, CoC, Blast wave, Dragon's breath, ice lance.... fire blast counterspell
You're actually making my point for me here. Mobile combat is more engaging and requires more skill. The fact that in PvP the mages have to use all their instant cast spells on the run instead of their static stationary-cast spells should be indicative that caster combat could be handled better. If they aren't using half of their kit then half of their kit is bad.
And sure, the stationary-cast other half of their kit is ok in PvE where they don't have to move around in combat nearly as much, but that's not an excuse at all.
Dunno why you said this? I never said they didn't have instants. I was saying instants don't count as mobile casting in the context of the current discussion.
Edit: Just to reiterate for you, Mobile Casting in the context of this discussion is being able to channel spell casts while running around. For example, it would be a WoW warlock being able to cast shadowbolt while running around
Mobile combat is more engaging and requires more skill.
To me this shouldn't really automatically equate to greater skill. And being able to run around like a chicken with your head cut off and still being able to cast spells is a little much. I can understand why i hear of these mageballs of death. Yea pls keep mages normal, where skill is required.
what comes to mind is a whole raid of mages strafing back and forth, some jumping, some not. Just hanging in range and when and individual mage gets targeted he runs away... can just imagine it now..
Mobile combat is more engaging and requires more skill.
To me this shouldn't really automatically equate to greater skill. And being able to run around like a chicken with your head cut off and still being able to cast spells is a little much. I can understand why i hear of these mageballs of death. Yea pls keep mages normal, where skill is required.
Well maybe not to you, but if you think critically about it it is obvious that mobile combat is more skill-based than static combat.
You're essentially trying to tell me that players running around dodging abilities and AoE's requires less skill than standing in place just using your skill rotations. There's no way you'd ever convince me that "correctly using your skill rotations while standing still" is more skill-based than "casting spells with good positioning and moving with the flow of combat"
what comes to mind is a whole raid of mages strafing back and forth, some jumping, some not. Just hanging in range and when and individual mage gets targeted he runs away... can just imagine it now..
I'm getting the feeling you haven't played or seen any game that has mobile casting and you have a bunch of assumptions based off your limited experience playing WoW and other static-casting games.
You're acting like what I'm saying is some crazy concept that would never work, but Guild Wars 2, ESO, and many other games already do mobile casting very very well. In fact, many people consider Guild Wars 2 combat the gold standard of MMO combat, and GW2's combat is entirely mobile, constantly moving.
I guess I tend to ground most of my knowledge off of D&D around the 2nd edition era when TSR was still around. Anyways when casters took an action, such as casting a spell, you were restricted to a 5 foot move in any direction before or after casting. An action phase would be 10 secs to one round of combat. If memory serves a full move would be like 60 feet (12feet human base x5), that would be a run. Spell casting is a very intricate arcane art where hand gestures had to be perfect, there was even a chance for your spell to fizzle if you were just plainly attacked and missed your roll. Point is, running and casting just didn't happen in D&D. Seems the Sandal God has a liking to D&D as well, if not more so than I since the last time i played was some 20 years ago. I would be surprised to see the mage very much different then the Iconic mage.
Maybe if one was to play around with mobile casting the archetype to have that ability should be the summoner type. Maybe the conjuration school can cross with the innate magic version of mage in D&D, the Sorcerer. Sorcerer's were not trained in the way of arts of the arcane the same way mages were. Sorcerers had an innate ability for magic, therefore maybe they don't need to use the somatic, verbal, focus. /shrug you can root for mobile casting GL
I guess I tend to ground most of my knowledge off of D&D around the 2nd edition era when TSR was still around. Anyways when casters took an action, such as casting a spell, you were restricted to a 5 foot move in any direction before or after casting. An action phase would be 10 secs to one round of combat. If memory serves a full move would be like 60 feet (12feet human base x5), that would be a run. Spell casting is a very intricate arcane art where hand gestures had to be perfect, there was even a chance for your spell to fizzle if you were just plainly attacked and missed your roll. Point is, running and casting just didn't happen in D&D. Seems the Sandal God has a liking to D&D as well, if not more so than I since the last time i played was some 20 years ago. I would be surprised to see the mage very much different then the Iconic mage.
Maybe if one was to play around with mobile casting the archetype to have that ability should be the summoner type. Maybe the conjuration school can cross with the innate magic version of mage in D&D, the Sorcerer. Sorcerer's were not trained in the way of arts of the arcane the same way mages were. Sorcerers had an innate ability for magic, therefore maybe they don't need to use the somatic, verbal, focus. /shrug you can root for mobile casting GL
The problem here is like I said you're restricting your opinions on the matter to your previous bias. This is not D&D, this is an MMO. This is not a turn-based strategy game, it is a real-time combat game. D&D had those rules because of how turn-based strategy has to be balanced.
Your belief that casters "shouldn't" be mobile is because your nostalgia and first impressions lead you to think that way. Nobody looks at Guild Wars 2 casters, ESO casters, Tera casters, Wildstar casters or any other mobile-casting MMO and thinks "These don't feel like mages/casters/wizards/etc."
Even though they are mobile they still feel very much like magic users.
This is why I think your argument is disingenuous. Your point comes almost entirely from bias.
And to clarify, I'm not saying they shouldn't have any rooted-cast spells, just that any rooted-cast spells should be the rare exception to the rule and be restricted to very powerful spells.
Please add magical shields to Shaman (Cleric/Summoner).
After testing the Cleric in Alpha 1 I have a request to make.
I think it would be great if the Cleric/Summoner (Shaman) can summon magical shields for their team members. I do not think summoned weapons would be as useful as magical shields. I also don't want healing output diminished by being forced to choose DPS Augment Lines and I would love the flexible approach Heals and Mitigation skills bring to the table. I believe the summoner secondary would be best placed to offer the extra support.
It would be nice if one of the summoners augment skill trees revolve around different duration magical shields. I've taken inspiration from Celestial (DCuO Healer) and also Paladin (WoW). The two inspirational aspects are not directly summoners but if anyone can summon a magical shield it would be a summoner or a summoner hybrid. in DCuO the shields would also heal during a shield duration or when the shield expires.
Comments
I don't know if the misuse of the term stems from players not knowing what it means or having false expectations.
What you see in the video is some iteration X of the skills. Like everything iterative, they will refine it based on feedback and testing, both internally and externally. One skill might need 5 iterations to get right, another 50.
Steven have said several times that when they open for Alpha 1 and lift the NDA, they want to show stuff that is reasonably polished, based on earlier experiences when people go mental over e.g. animations that are shown 3 months into the project.
We can therefore assume that they are reasonably happy, at this point, with what we see in the video.
Genereally there have been a lot of comments on too much VFX, also in previous gameplay viedos, which Intrepid seems to be aware of and will probably scale down, at least in larger battles
The right expectation to have is: some of the skills might change radically before launch, some might end up more or less as they are now.
Giving feedback now is OK. But probably Alpha 1 will be a better time, and I expect little will change before then.
Yes, animations are iterative and they might get a couple of "passes" before they resemble the finished product ultimately, but still, you can kinda tell there's the tendency among the animation team to make animations that have a rather long "cast time".
It's better to give feedback on that now than to wait for them to churn out hundreds of these long ass animations. It's pretty far from "moot" any way.
I've ALWAYS enjoyed playing CLERIC-type characters. Usually I take a priest/paladin class and incorporate as much as possible the "hammer-of-justice" feel. I do agree with some of what has been said here about the CLERIC and they're propensity for violence or death-causing abilities; or lack of. Typically we expect a "man-of -the-cloth" and "do-no-harm" kinda person, to, um, not outright attack another being. (CLERIC is a Muslim and/or Catholic CLERGY reference).
Many Prayer, Bless, Bestow Curse-type spells at low levels, where only higher levels afforded abilities such as Harm, Slay Living , Cause Wounds, Flame Strike, aka harmful spells (DnD references) and/or difficult to accomplish abilities such as Resurrection-to be saved for the most advanced CLERIC.
Spells invoking a diety's wrath such as: smite, eradicate, flames, wrath, etc. and always OF HEAVEN or THE GODS, or something divinely celestial conjure images of priestly/cleric-types and would be available in limited skill lines at mid-high level.
Also, abilities which derive from a "spirit/karma, conscious, life force-type" origin, like a Conjured Spirit Hammer (aka, the spear ability) are in line with Clerics for sure.
The class should not share abilities with other main class-types until the sub-class is chosen for sure. As I understand, A Cleric-fighter would then acquire abilities from the Fighter line. AWESOME! Meaning, fighters should not be able to resurrect players and/or heal players.
Do you feel like you have enough of a choice between opting to specialize deeply in just a few skills versus broadening your knowledge with a wider variety? Personally, OPTIONS. However, if it takes 20 skill points to reach the Resurrection ability (aka, specializing deeply) in that line and then a wide variety of other skills superficially, I'm all for it. OR let's say a Slay Living (immediate eradication of foe) which is 25 skill points deep in a line, but maybe I cannot learn resurrection since a CLERIC that slays the living has lost their favor with their god and the ability to raise the dead...that's cool.
As you and your abilities grow more powerful, what stands out to you as problematic or unexciting?
->WHAT I DON'T WANT TO SEE IS ABILITIES THAT HAVE NO EFFECT WHEN THEY'RE NEEDED THE MOST - AKA BOSS MOBS AND HIGH LEVEL MOBS. I'm so bored with that mechanic in MMORPGs. If I cast the super-duper massive kill-all spell ultimate on the 10-story tall village destroying creature from the depth of hades, I want it to work! At least with the mechanics available for resist, armor, etc. But just an arbitrary "Sorry, didn't work!" does NOT make me feel powerful and is boring. Imagine a quarterback suddenly, in the final seconds of the game, when his team is about to win, losing the ability to throw a football. What? Now, the same quarterback that makes the hail-mary pass and wins the game with seconds to spare(aka, the player who saved the day). Much more exciting and epic. One scenario is problematic and unexciting, the other powerful! The exhilaration of the game comes from success and the chance of it instead of the fear/possibility of dying and wiping.
Overall, I think the direction I've seen in videos and on the site is perfection. The node system seems, in concept, incredible. I'm excited to play and have no problem subbing a game with this much content.
I can't wait to see more... HURRY UP AOC! =P
Having to stand still to cast spells is a relic of the limitations of the past in gaming and am going to be severely disappointed if that's the direction casting will go. Mobile casting akin to GW2 or ESO is far more engaging and entertaining than FF14 or WoW's standing-still casting
Though I'm basing this off of the cast animations I'm seeing, and maybe they are actually mobile, though the obvious lack of any movement in these previews doesn't bode well
Also have to take into consideration that the combat system is no where near being the full hybrid system they aim to create. I'm sure there will be spells you have to stand still to cast, but also some you can use while being mobile.
That's very true, I just wish they'd clarify these kinds of things in these preview videos and stuff. Even a simple "Early version of Cleric abilities effects showcase" would help, because it would clarify that they're showing off JUST the effects, and not necessarily any gameplay mechanics
I like that they were clean casts so we can see what the animations look like.
Well I guess you didn't take in what I said at all, but regardless in NONE of the gameplay footage so far does anyone move while casting, and if I was making an ability showcase or any gameplay footage I would include at least one scene of mobile-casting at LEAST once. But nowhere is any evidence of it found.
Plus, it's been stated before by the developers that they like having strong stationary abilities. I only hope that's the exception and not the rule.
Edit: I also would like to state that I know that this is early alpha and combat is still in it's early stages and things could change. It's just not very good to see that they've fleshed out so much but without a major aspect that people would like to see.
That's not mobile casting, that's just an instant cast mobility spell...
Next you're going to tell me WoW mages are mobile casters because they also have the blink ability.
No, they have to stand still each time they have to wait for their cast bars to fill up. That's static casting.
Compared to Guild Wars 2 and other mobile games like ESO where the casters can move while the cast bar is filling WoW mages look ridiculous.
What? That's an arbitrary rule and doesn't have to be the case. Guild Wars 2 doesn't use mana at all and mobile casters are balanced just fine. ESO has mana and mobile casters do just fine.
You're actually making my point for me here. Mobile combat is more engaging and requires more skill. The fact that in PvP the mages have to use all their instant cast spells on the run instead of their static stationary-cast spells should be indicative that caster combat could be handled better. If they aren't using half of their kit then half of their kit is bad.
And sure, the stationary-cast other half of their kit is ok in PvE where they don't have to move around in combat nearly as much, but that's not an excuse at all.
Dunno why you said this? I never said they didn't have instants. I was saying instants don't count as mobile casting in the context of the current discussion.
Edit: Just to reiterate for you, Mobile Casting in the context of this discussion is being able to channel spell casts while running around.
For example, it would be a WoW warlock being able to cast shadowbolt while running around
To me this shouldn't really automatically equate to greater skill. And being able to run around like a chicken with your head cut off and still being able to cast spells is a little much. I can understand why i hear of these mageballs of death. Yea pls keep mages normal, where skill is required.
Well maybe not to you, but if you think critically about it it is obvious that mobile combat is more skill-based than static combat.
You're essentially trying to tell me that players running around dodging abilities and AoE's requires less skill than standing in place just using your skill rotations. There's no way you'd ever convince me that "correctly using your skill rotations while standing still" is more skill-based than "casting spells with good positioning and moving with the flow of combat"
I'm getting the feeling you haven't played or seen any game that has mobile casting and you have a bunch of assumptions based off your limited experience playing WoW and other static-casting games.
You're acting like what I'm saying is some crazy concept that would never work, but Guild Wars 2, ESO, and many other games already do mobile casting very very well. In fact, many people consider Guild Wars 2 combat the gold standard of MMO combat, and GW2's combat is entirely mobile, constantly moving.
Your argument comes off as very disingenuous.
Maybe if one was to play around with mobile casting the archetype to have that ability should be the summoner type. Maybe the conjuration school can cross with the innate magic version of mage in D&D, the Sorcerer. Sorcerer's were not trained in the way of arts of the arcane the same way mages were. Sorcerers had an innate ability for magic, therefore maybe they don't need to use the somatic, verbal, focus. /shrug you can root for mobile casting GL
The problem here is like I said you're restricting your opinions on the matter to your previous bias. This is not D&D, this is an MMO. This is not a turn-based strategy game, it is a real-time combat game. D&D had those rules because of how turn-based strategy has to be balanced.
Your belief that casters "shouldn't" be mobile is because your nostalgia and first impressions lead you to think that way. Nobody looks at Guild Wars 2 casters, ESO casters, Tera casters, Wildstar casters or any other mobile-casting MMO and thinks "These don't feel like mages/casters/wizards/etc."
Even though they are mobile they still feel very much like magic users.
This is why I think your argument is disingenuous. Your point comes almost entirely from bias.
And to clarify, I'm not saying they shouldn't have any rooted-cast spells, just that any rooted-cast spells should be the rare exception to the rule and be restricted to very powerful spells.
Thanks! Game looks beautiful and I look forward to it!
Hi there! You can find the current list of archetypes and classes here: https://ashesofcreation.com/news/class-list
There's no "Druid" by name, but there will be classes that have mechanics that we believe Druid-players will enjoy!
After testing the Cleric in Alpha 1 I have a request to make.
I think it would be great if the Cleric/Summoner (Shaman) can summon magical shields for their team members. I do not think summoned weapons would be as useful as magical shields. I also don't want healing output diminished by being forced to choose DPS Augment Lines and I would love the flexible approach Heals and Mitigation skills bring to the table. I believe the summoner secondary would be best placed to offer the extra support.
It would be nice if one of the summoners augment skill trees revolve around different duration magical shields. I've taken inspiration from Celestial (DCuO Healer) and also Paladin (WoW). The two inspirational aspects are not directly summoners but if anyone can summon a magical shield it would be a summoner or a summoner hybrid. in DCuO the shields would also heal during a shield duration or when the shield expires.