This game may not be for you. Certain decisions should be binding. If you want to play another race than make another character with that race...
Ashes is about making decisions and having them not be changable.
As i said before, why is it possible to change subclasses, religion or social organisation then? Not being able to change your race is just not consistent with everything else
As i said before, why is it possible to change subclasses, religion or social organisation then? Not being able to change your race is just not consistent with everything else
It doesn't have to be consistent because they are not the same things.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This game may not be for you. Certain decisions should be binding. If you want to play another race than make another character with that race...
Ashes is about making decisions and having them not be changable.
As i said before, why is it possible to change subclasses, religion or social organisation then? Not being able to change your race is just not consistent with everything else
I think having your body reconstructed is a little different than switching the organization you are with or the religion you follow.
We still don't know how significant the changes will be.
We know that there are ways to modify your base stats with a profession so the stat differences shouldn't be a big deal later on.
To my knowledge, you can only have one augment per skill so it's unclear how often you will choose a racial augment over an augment from another source. I'd imagine the meta would revolve around class augments with only niche builds making use of race augments. If there ever was a race augment that was a must have meta pick, i'd imagine it would be nerfed.
I'd rather see the differences before assuming the worse. I can't remember the last time i played a game and felt pressured to play a certain race because of its bonuses.
I'd rather see the differences before assuming the worse. I can't remember the last time i played a game and felt pressured to play a certain race because of its bonuses.
I got convinced by now that those differences are nice, but ill stay thickheaded that there should be the option to change races (I really dont care if its once a day or only once a year).
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'd rather see the differences before assuming the worse. I can't remember the last time i played a game and felt pressured to play a certain race because of its bonuses.
ESO would be the most recent one
Ok, and that's because you can spec into passives that you always have access to if i remember correctly. Not only that but those passives provide a decent benefit if i remember correctly. To my knowledge, ashes won't have racial passives like ESO. We have augments and stats. Stats that might be able to be changed and augments that will be competing with augments from other sources to be used.
Now do the opposite, tell me the games that you have played that haven't pressured you into a race despite their being differences.
Now do the opposite, tell me the games that you have played that haven't pressured you into a race despite their being differences.
If there are differences, the pressure to choose the best class is always there. I dont condemn race benefits, if they are balanced I actually see this as an advantage (partly because of the discussion here and on reddit) but with a 200h+ leveling process, I might want to change my race after 1k hours to have some other augments available. Making a new character with the same class just to change race seems really out of place. As i said before, a once in x month possibility to change race is all I'm asking for, not necessarily to go with the flavor of the month, but to try out some new augments and playstyles.
Choices Should matter. So i'm pro meaningful racial differences and against quick and repeated racial changes.
With that logic you shouldnt be able to change sub classes, religion, or really anything else that impacts gameplay. MinMaxing is a huge part of MMO'S (i would even say most players go for the optimal route) so having no race change available just seems stupid.
i would support that notion fully. Make the differences matter and don't let switch player to whatever FOTM is currently without leveling a new character.
I do understand why they don't go for it..
I am definitely against race perks for stats. I would hate to have to be a dwarf because I want to tank and dwarf would gain "X" stat that benefits tanks. This would be trash as all dwarves deserve to be murdered on sight.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Now do the opposite, tell me the games that you have played that haven't pressured you into a race despite their being differences.
If there are differences, the pressure to choose the best class is always there. I dont condemn race benefits, if they are balanced I actually see this as an advantage (partly because of the discussion here and on reddit) but with a 200h+ leveling process, I might want to change my race after 1k hours to have some other augments available. Making a new character with the same class just to change race seems really out of place. As i said before, a once in x month possibility to change race is all I'm asking for, not necessarily to go with the flavor of the month, but to try out some new augments and playstyles.
What if the differences don't effect what's best?
If the best augments come from a combination of augments from other sources then the race doesn't impact performance at the top level.
GW2 has a similar situation where races have different abilities but since it's better to slot the class abilities (in most cases), they don't have an impact on the meta.
I'm against race changes as I feel like it's part of your characters identity which i think is important in RPGs. I would prefer no racial differences if it was ever felt necessary but i also don't think it's hard for them to nerf any augments that become problematic like this.
I am definitely against race perks for stats. I would hate to have to be a dwarf because I want to tank and dwarf would gain "X" stat that benefits tanks. This would be trash as all dwarves deserve to be murdered on sight.
I feel it is important that keep the identity of the game pure in an MMO fashion. The separation of races and their abilities should be in place. Each race would have strengths and weaknesses and can be used in different circumstances. For example, different dungeon or world boss requirements might have requirements that make a certain race/class combination more ideal than another dungeon or world boss. If one races stat bonus or skill makes them ideal in one space, you would need diversity to be able to fill that requirement for a wide range of activities.
The idea of having one race/class meta for an encounter will undoubtedly happen if you have a wide range of possible encounters. So level up your Orc mage or your Dwarven Bard, the world will need everyone! But changing Race? Leave that out of the game. No one should be meta in every situation.
I am definitely against race perks for stats. I would hate to have to be a dwarf because I want to tank and dwarf would gain "X" stat that benefits tanks. This would be trash as all dwarves deserve to be murdered on sight.
What did dwarves ever do to you, my man?
They exist. That's bad enough, for starters. Best dwarf is a dead dwarf. Only thing worse than a Tulnar.
I hard disagree here. Social interaction comes from the need to interact with other people (no group finder, only one profession at master rank, tavern games etc.), community comes from the people behind the screen, not from the name or looks of your character. So you are just wrong IMO.
It is more than just "(no group finder, only one profession at master rank, tavern games etc.)". Yes, that is a big part of it, but if players can freely change major parts of their character it makes it so if someone wants to rob a guild bank or some other action that would create a lot of anger. The robber can just change everything about themselves, and become another random character. Name and server are most important here, but race and gender can, and in my opinion should be considered a part of the players in game identity.
Further more @Noaani hit the nail on the head 100%. Changing race is a pay2win service. It allows those with more disposable incomes to swipe the credit card whenever a race is slightly more powerful to stay on top of the meta.
When it comes to how much of a difference there will be between the races, we clearly disagree which is fine. I don't want over exaggerated differences, but I do want noticeable differences. You seem to want minimal to no differences which is a valid option. Just not one that I want to see in AOC.
Further more @Noaani hit the nail on the head 100%. Changing race is a pay2win service. It allows those with more disposable incomes to swipe the credit card whenever a race is slightly more powerful to stay on top of the meta.
I completely agree that a paid service for a racial change is a no go, i would have imagined it to be similar to changing your subclass, or probably even harder than that. Like a questline where you have to prove your worth to get accepted into another race. Tbh i dont even care about the appearance, just the availability of the racial augments (i guess that would be ok RP wise, but sucks if the Human suddenly uses a skill with an elven augment, so you would need another threat-race-indicator, which is probably too much for a simple race change). Oh yeah and i agree with you that name change shouldnt be possible, i guess we just draw different lines with the racial thing.
I completely agree that a paid service for a racial change is a no go, i would have imagined it to be similar to changing your subclass, or probably even harder than that. Like a questline where you have to prove your worth to get accepted into another race. Tbh i dont even care about the appearance, just the availability of the racial augments (i guess that would be ok RP wise, but sucks if the Human suddenly uses a skill with an elven augment, so you would need another threat-race-indicator, which is probably too much for a simple race change). Oh yeah and i agree with you that name change shouldnt be possible, i guess we just draw different lines with the racial thing.
I guess if they had a long quest line where orcs beat you to the point that you are now dumber, and less charismatic, but a little more strong and durable. As a part of some sort of brutal orcish hazing. You still look human, but instead have the orcish racial features. I would find that to be an amazing feature that is just a part of good character development.
I guess if they had a long quest line where orcs beat you to the point that you are now dumber, and less charismatic, but a little more strong and durable. As a part of some sort of brutal orcish hazing. You still look human, but instead have the orcish racial features. I would find that to be an amazing feature that is just a part of good character development.
This game may not be for you. Certain decisions should be binding. If you want to play another race than make another character with that race...
Ashes is about making decisions and having them not be changable.
As i said before, why is it possible to change subclasses, religion or social organisation then? Not being able to change your race is just not consistent with everything else
Because it is hard to change something that ultimately defines you instead of saying "Yeah I dont want to be a part of the thieves guild and join this other gods church."
Even the subclass change is connected with a hopefully lengthy process.
As long as the differences are small then I don't care. Let the Elf have that extra 1% damage for being a Mage.
What I would prefer though is the racial differences being non-class specific. That means regardless of class, your race abilities will be useful. I would rather have things like being good at certain artisan skills, inherent swimming / water breathing, infra / ulltravision, resistances, etc.
As for race change......a big no from me. There should be 2 things you can't change; your primary class and your race. If you did not do the research necessary to know a certain race / class was clearly inferior before investing 200 hours playing it then, tough luck.
Part of an MMORPG is actually role playing. That does not mean speaking in ye olde english, it means getting invested in your character and doing what they would do in that specific game.
If you have an ogre warrior standing next to a gnome warrior and they have the exact same skills and capabilities, it takes away the uniqueness and flavor of actually being an ogre or a gnome. Without racial stat differences or traits, people tend to just see your character as just some model in a video game, and not Urg the Unclean, Ravager of Women and Cherry Pies.
I am definitely against race perks for stats. I would hate to have to be a dwarf because I want to tank and dwarf would gain "X" stat that benefits tanks. This would be trash as all dwarves deserve to be murdered on sight.
What did dwarves ever do to you, my man?
They exist. That's bad enough, for starters. Best dwarf is a dead dwarf. Only thing worse than a Tulnar.
Says the rat.. we all know humans are the worst race they destroy everything they get their greedy little hands on
I am definitely against race perks for stats. I would hate to have to be a dwarf because I want to tank and dwarf would gain "X" stat that benefits tanks. This would be trash as all dwarves deserve to be murdered on sight.
What did dwarves ever do to you, my man?
They exist. That's bad enough, for starters. Best dwarf is a dead dwarf. Only thing worse than a Tulnar.
Says the rat.. we all know humans are the worst race they destroy everything they get their greedy little hands on
What about beeing able to change your race once your are max level? Not everybody is a pro in the beginning and knows which race to pick with which class. You should only really worry about minmaxing one you hit max level anyways. So why not give everyone a Race-changing token once (at max rank)? Minmaxing would be possible, but your choice would still matter. Your would have to spend that token really wisely. And not everybody would run around with the same class-race-combination, dependend on the current meta.
I am definitely against race perks for stats. I would hate to have to be a dwarf because I want to tank and dwarf would gain "X" stat that benefits tanks. This would be trash as all dwarves deserve to be murdered on sight.
What did dwarves ever do to you, my man?
They exist. That's bad enough, for starters. Best dwarf is a dead dwarf. Only thing worse than a Tulnar.
Says the rat.. we all know humans are the worst race they destroy everything they get their greedy little hands on
What about beeing able to change your race once your are max level? Not everybody is a pro in the beginning and knows which race to pick with which class. You should only really worry about minmaxing one you hit max level anyways. So why not give everyone a Race-changing token once (at max rank)? Minmaxing would be possible, but your choice would still matter. Your would have to spend that token really wisely. And not everybody would run around with the same class-race-combination, dependend on the current meta.
I frankly don't see the problem with doing your research before creating your character if you want to min/max.
I dont want to see statistical differences between races. I would much rather each race be either homogenized or have racial augments that make their skills more "elfy" or "dwarfy" or whatever. I will let the devs decide what that means.
Piss off with the "well he is a big muscular looking orc of course he's going to be a better fighter than your elf hurdur" argument. You can invent any number of justifications as to why any race is better at any particular thing, depending on what your biases are at the moment. Tolkien Elves of the First Age, for example had martial skill that eclipsed other creatures. Why? Go read Tolkien if you care. Thats not the point. The point is, you can always invent a reason why a skinny elf is a better swordsman than a musclebound orc. Dont fuck with my character fantasy in the name of your faux-realism.
All you get with raw statistical better and worse dichotomies in racial minmaxing is sore feelings and lots of samey characters. ("Oh look, Orc Barbarian #72638...")
Just make augments that evoke a certain racial style and call it good. For example, with a Fighter's rush skill, if you applied a racial augment, maybe an Orc's charge would include a warcry that gave him bonus damage to his next attack, an Elf's charge would be an acrobatic leap that let him soar above would-be interceptors, and a Dwarf's charge would let him bowl over people. You will still certainly get situations where some races have more to offer certain classes in general with their racial abilities/augment/whatever, that will almost always be the case. But if you do it right, you will make all those different augments useful enough that somebody will find an inventive way to use those racial abilities, and they will be perfectly happy regardless, because their character still feels "orcish," or "elvish," or what have you.
And you know what? If that is too hard, just leave them homogenous. Dont offer the illusion of choice to players by saying "oh well you *could* make an Elf Fighter, but he'll be worse in every way than an Orc Fighter." Finding that sort of shit out after you take the time to make a character and put your time and effort into developing it is a giant middle finger to a player. Dont do it.
I like having racial benefits as long as skill is the primary factor in fighting an equally geared enemy. If the outcome of an engagement is mostly decided by picking a particular race, then I think the racial benefits need to be rebalanced but not scrapped entirely.
That's only a problem for min/max people. It won't get forced on you, for you won't be able to measure in-game performance compared to others. Which, thankfully gives a lot more freedom
As Steven has stated many times AOC will not be for everyone.
Would it hurt for the general concept of the game, if you would be able to change your race like once a month (or once every 2,3,4 months)? IMO this doesnt really hurts the risk vs reward concept that we all like so much about the game and would be a huge help for people like me.
Even allowing a single race change is a huge paradigm shift
As soon as you let someone change race even once you lose all of the importance and impact and immersion choosing a race comes with. From what I've seen of Ashes of Creation so far, it's that immersion and impactful choices are going to be prominent. Allowing you to undo a choice removes all of that.
As for the original topic. I feel like this is something only min/maxers will complain about. The kind of people who can't stop themselves from acting against their own fun. OP is talking about how they don't want to be "forced" to play the best race for their class, but really that's just them not allowing themselves to play what they want.
It's like people who feel they "have" to do dailies every day or else they'll fall behind. You don't "have" to do anything, and having that mindset is just going to make you stressed and not have a good time.
Comments
As i said before, why is it possible to change subclasses, religion or social organisation then? Not being able to change your race is just not consistent with everything else
It doesn't have to be consistent because they are not the same things.
I think having your body reconstructed is a little different than switching the organization you are with or the religion you follow.
We still don't know how significant the changes will be.
We know that there are ways to modify your base stats with a profession so the stat differences shouldn't be a big deal later on.
To my knowledge, you can only have one augment per skill so it's unclear how often you will choose a racial augment over an augment from another source. I'd imagine the meta would revolve around class augments with only niche builds making use of race augments. If there ever was a race augment that was a must have meta pick, i'd imagine it would be nerfed.
I'd rather see the differences before assuming the worse. I can't remember the last time i played a game and felt pressured to play a certain race because of its bonuses.
I got convinced by now that those differences are nice, but ill stay thickheaded that there should be the option to change races (I really dont care if its once a day or only once a year).
Ok, and that's because you can spec into passives that you always have access to if i remember correctly. Not only that but those passives provide a decent benefit if i remember correctly. To my knowledge, ashes won't have racial passives like ESO. We have augments and stats. Stats that might be able to be changed and augments that will be competing with augments from other sources to be used.
Now do the opposite, tell me the games that you have played that haven't pressured you into a race despite their being differences.
If there are differences, the pressure to choose the best class is always there. I dont condemn race benefits, if they are balanced I actually see this as an advantage (partly because of the discussion here and on reddit) but with a 200h+ leveling process, I might want to change my race after 1k hours to have some other augments available. Making a new character with the same class just to change race seems really out of place. As i said before, a once in x month possibility to change race is all I'm asking for, not necessarily to go with the flavor of the month, but to try out some new augments and playstyles.
i would support that notion fully. Make the differences matter and don't let switch player to whatever FOTM is currently without leveling a new character.
I do understand why they don't go for it..
What if the differences don't effect what's best?
If the best augments come from a combination of augments from other sources then the race doesn't impact performance at the top level.
GW2 has a similar situation where races have different abilities but since it's better to slot the class abilities (in most cases), they don't have an impact on the meta.
I'm against race changes as I feel like it's part of your characters identity which i think is important in RPGs. I would prefer no racial differences if it was ever felt necessary but i also don't think it's hard for them to nerf any augments that become problematic like this.
What did dwarves ever do to you, my man?
The idea of having one race/class meta for an encounter will undoubtedly happen if you have a wide range of possible encounters. So level up your Orc mage or your Dwarven Bard, the world will need everyone! But changing Race? Leave that out of the game. No one should be meta in every situation.
They exist. That's bad enough, for starters. Best dwarf is a dead dwarf. Only thing worse than a Tulnar.
It is more than just "(no group finder, only one profession at master rank, tavern games etc.)". Yes, that is a big part of it, but if players can freely change major parts of their character it makes it so if someone wants to rob a guild bank or some other action that would create a lot of anger. The robber can just change everything about themselves, and become another random character. Name and server are most important here, but race and gender can, and in my opinion should be considered a part of the players in game identity.
Further more @Noaani hit the nail on the head 100%. Changing race is a pay2win service. It allows those with more disposable incomes to swipe the credit card whenever a race is slightly more powerful to stay on top of the meta.
When it comes to how much of a difference there will be between the races, we clearly disagree which is fine. I don't want over exaggerated differences, but I do want noticeable differences. You seem to want minimal to no differences which is a valid option. Just not one that I want to see in AOC.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I guess if they had a long quest line where orcs beat you to the point that you are now dumber, and less charismatic, but a little more strong and durable. As a part of some sort of brutal orcish hazing. You still look human, but instead have the orcish racial features. I would find that to be an amazing feature that is just a part of good character development.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Because it is hard to change something that ultimately defines you instead of saying "Yeah I dont want to be a part of the thieves guild and join this other gods church."
Even the subclass change is connected with a hopefully lengthy process.
What I would prefer though is the racial differences being non-class specific. That means regardless of class, your race abilities will be useful. I would rather have things like being good at certain artisan skills, inherent swimming / water breathing, infra / ulltravision, resistances, etc.
As for race change......a big no from me. There should be 2 things you can't change; your primary class and your race. If you did not do the research necessary to know a certain race / class was clearly inferior before investing 200 hours playing it then, tough luck.
If you have an ogre warrior standing next to a gnome warrior and they have the exact same skills and capabilities, it takes away the uniqueness and flavor of actually being an ogre or a gnome. Without racial stat differences or traits, people tend to just see your character as just some model in a video game, and not Urg the Unclean, Ravager of Women and Cherry Pies.
Says the rat.. we all know humans are the worst race they destroy everything they get their greedy little hands on
"Mouse". I ain't no dirty rat.
Semantics, you are still a rodent
I frankly don't see the problem with doing your research before creating your character if you want to min/max.
Piss off with the "well he is a big muscular looking orc of course he's going to be a better fighter than your elf hurdur" argument. You can invent any number of justifications as to why any race is better at any particular thing, depending on what your biases are at the moment. Tolkien Elves of the First Age, for example had martial skill that eclipsed other creatures. Why? Go read Tolkien if you care. Thats not the point. The point is, you can always invent a reason why a skinny elf is a better swordsman than a musclebound orc. Dont fuck with my character fantasy in the name of your faux-realism.
All you get with raw statistical better and worse dichotomies in racial minmaxing is sore feelings and lots of samey characters. ("Oh look, Orc Barbarian #72638...")
Just make augments that evoke a certain racial style and call it good. For example, with a Fighter's rush skill, if you applied a racial augment, maybe an Orc's charge would include a warcry that gave him bonus damage to his next attack, an Elf's charge would be an acrobatic leap that let him soar above would-be interceptors, and a Dwarf's charge would let him bowl over people. You will still certainly get situations where some races have more to offer certain classes in general with their racial abilities/augment/whatever, that will almost always be the case. But if you do it right, you will make all those different augments useful enough that somebody will find an inventive way to use those racial abilities, and they will be perfectly happy regardless, because their character still feels "orcish," or "elvish," or what have you.
And you know what? If that is too hard, just leave them homogenous. Dont offer the illusion of choice to players by saying "oh well you *could* make an Elf Fighter, but he'll be worse in every way than an Orc Fighter." Finding that sort of shit out after you take the time to make a character and put your time and effort into developing it is a giant middle finger to a player. Dont do it.
Even allowing a single race change is a huge paradigm shift
As soon as you let someone change race even once you lose all of the importance and impact and immersion choosing a race comes with. From what I've seen of Ashes of Creation so far, it's that immersion and impactful choices are going to be prominent. Allowing you to undo a choice removes all of that.
As for the original topic. I feel like this is something only min/maxers will complain about. The kind of people who can't stop themselves from acting against their own fun. OP is talking about how they don't want to be "forced" to play the best race for their class, but really that's just them not allowing themselves to play what they want.
It's like people who feel they "have" to do dailies every day or else they'll fall behind. You don't "have" to do anything, and having that mindset is just going to make you stressed and not have a good time.