I think its appreciated if done well but kind of missing the point.
Everyone loves beneficial suprises, not so much detrimental surpises.
Either way, a surprise is a surprise because it is...wait for it.... 'unexpected'
For me though, life is full of ups and downs.
I would find it just as interesting to be confronted by random PvE muggers/assassins, intent on taking goods,
as random PvE messengers that come bearing gifts, from anonymous benefactors.
Even more so, if there is a quest line hidden behind the intentions of the good and the bad.
But that goes back to a 'nothing happens/exists without a reason philosophy'.
If the reason is logging in, as opposed to playing the game,
its kind of like breaking the 4th wall to me.
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unknownwonMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
No login rewards at all. The game shouldn't need such a cheap incentive to get people to log in. For those that actually want to play the game the login rewards would so minimal they wouldn't really care. On the other hand for those that may not want to play the game that day they would feel pressure just to login to get that reward then log off. Not only would this behavior not actually add anything to the game - after all if they were only online for a minute to get the reward it wouldn't contribute to the player base - but it would become a chore for that person and contribute to burnout on the game. I know this from firsthand experience. Sometimes you just need to take a break from a game for a few days, then come back refreshed. With the pressure of having a daily login reward you can't have that, or you get punished.
"Punished" may be a strong word, but psychologically people are much more driven when they feel they would miss out rather than getting a reward (FOMO is a more powerful driver of behavior than a reward). This is one of the psychological entrapments many games use today, which may be good for the short-term, but is not only bad for the long-term but also predatory when done intentionally.
Now this is more of personal opinion as I'm not a collector, but I believe that the only people who would care about cosmetic daily login rewards are collectors. It's not something that you can "flex", since all you did was log in; nothing special. I imagine the cosmetics would mostly consist of recolors which let's be honest... very few people really care about. If they aren't then it could be argued it would take development time away from more important things, but I don't know how much time that would be so I won't go there.
Some people have suggested subscription based login rewards, but I'm also against that as it falls to many of the same entrapments that daily cosmetic rewards do.
TL;DR
Such a minor reward most people wouldn't care about when they get it, but would still feel pressured into getting it (FOMO). The game itself should be the reward for logging in, without the need for cheap/minor rewards as a means of getting people to login through arguably predatory psychological exploits (negative reinforcement skinner box/operant conditioning chamber).
This sounds like an arduous chore, almost seems like you are saying "you aren't sure people will want to log in and thus here is a daily incentive to at the very least log in". If that is the case it incentivizes people to log in, collect their reward, and then bail. What happened to "build it and they will come"? I think this shows weakness to the community that your product needs to be supplemented with daily/monthly forced logins for some kind of reward. So, personally I am not a fan of the idea.
However, I could see something like on a quarterly/yearly basis we check your achievements and based off of achievement completion you will receive a different tier of cosmetic rewards. This can then be updated during new expansions. Rewarding people who play and commit time into the game more or less on how much they have committed.
It concerns me that this feature is even considered, let alone being implemented. The "login reward" should be playing a great game. For casual players there should be meaningful content that doesn't take a lot of time commitment. Basically the content needs to be diverse enough to support all sorts of playstyles and dedication levels.
I don't really like daily login rewards. They don't feel rewarding and it gets to be a chore real quick, especially with rewards that require consecutive logins. I also would much rather have a weekly quest and not daily quests.
People have suggested using a token system where you have to log in like 15 or 20 days to purchase the monthly cosmetic but I think a better solution would be to have a weekly quest that gives you 13 tokens so you could get a total of 52 across 4 weeks BUT have the cosmetic/decor item only cost 48 tokens so that you could miss approximately 4 weeks of the year and still have enough tokens to afford all of the cosmetics. This wouldn't pressure people to log in every day and it would also allow people to make up for the occasional missed week. I also think that the quests should be a little difficult not just running things around the map and killing super easy mobs.
I also really like the idea of giving subbed accounts a special cosmetic for however long they've been continuously subbed, but only every 3 months or so.
You should be rewarded for the time you spend in game, not the simple act of logging in. I've played many games with login bonuses, and while I am active in those games the bonuses feel great, it's just more free loot or cosmetics. But if I leave the game for a time, I end up feeling like I 'should' login just to get the bonus, even if I'm not enjoying the game currently and or am taking a break. This ends up making me feel inefficient or that I am being suboptimal, if and when I do return to the game understanding how far I set myself behind. Even if the login bonuses give no tangible advantage, cosmetics in an MMO feel like something desirable, which is good, but if I'm punished for not logging in it ends up being counter productive to bringing players back into the game.
I think a contrast should be made with seasonal items or cosmetics, missing out on a timed event doesn't feel nearly as bad since, I would have had to participate in the event, and not simply login. Login bonuses are easy enough to gain that even when I'm not grinding the game daily, I feel like I should at least login.
If you are asking me, I would prefer no login bonuses to any at all. That being said, it's not really that big of a deal to me, if this game ends up having login bonuses I know they will be purely cosmetic which I would be fine with. But again, I think to avoid the potential feeling of loss with returning players, or players that are taking a break, no login bonus is the wave.
Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.
Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!
Dev Discussion #26 - Login Rewards
What are your thoughts around login rewards, whether on a daily or longer-term basis for cosmetic items? What reward systems from other games have you liked and disliked, and for what reasons?
This discussion came directly from community feedback during December's live stream. For some additional context, check out these Discord quotes from Steven after the stream:
Steven: Ok question. What if, everyday you got a cosmetic coin. And each month there was a unique cosmetic purchasable by 30 coins? You could build up coins overtime and by the months cosmetic you want. That way there isn’t as much pressure
Steven: a) Gonna do a community discussion with this topic
b) I think every month would be cool, but am open to community feedback/sentiment on this frequency
c) I think as long as the reward is more a gift than a pressure or p2w tactic, that it is cool
Steven: Some people have less time to play for certain things, and everyone likes to collect things... a login reward is an opportunity to give casual players who may only play a few hours a week something to work towards in addition to their in-game efforts. but thats just my opinion, and thats why it will be cool to hear everyone's thoughts on it
Keep an eye out for our upcoming Dev Discussion topics on archetypes and hybrid combat!
Steven's second quote. "I'm open to discussions on frequency." Does that mean he's already made up his mind about the god awful cosmetics?
How are coins any better? How does it not create pressure. Each month there's a unique cosmetic. Purchasable for 30 coins.
Needs 30 days of login in. What about February?
How about giving these "unique" looks to artisans instead? Tie it to the gameplay.
There is one very important thing you need to grasp
Cosmetic rewards, or any rewards just for logging in aren't rewards.
Rewards should be linked to achieving things.
Login in isn't an achievement.
Only seasonal/at an event
Daily rewards shouldn't be used as a motivational tool.
Daily rewards either create fomo or they are not important enough in the first place. When they are not important, why have them? And if they are used to motivate, then they create fomo. And fear is never a good, sustainable, long-term motivation. Either the player is motivated to play the game or not. Login rewards won't change that. The game should be enjoyable and motivating on its own and if that's the case login rewards are obsolete.
Daily rewards are great for making players open the game SHORT TERM, but not more than that.
I like the idea of rewarding players, who don't have much time.
Though, in my opinion that should be done through daily reward systems connected with an event . For example: lets say there is a Halloween event, then maybe a daily reward system over the period of a month could be a good idea. In which you have to log in 21 days out of the 28-30 to get a special event cosmetic in the end and little things along the way. Or maybe only for a week or two. Have daily rewards to make the event special.
I know Steven is against participation rewards, but still.
Players want to show off, that they were there. Clash of clans just came to my mind. Everybody kept their christmas trees and stuff.
Just don't make them continously!
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KarthosMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What kinds of games need to bribe you to log in?
Shallow games. Boring games. Poorly designed games. Shitty games. Games designed to maximize your log in time so they can sell you stuff.
What motivates you to log into a game shouldn't be some trinket they throw at you for participating in the most basic, simple task there is, turning the game on. What motivates you should be the quality of the game, and the quality of the content in that game.
If you need a log in reward, may be time to reevaluate why you are playing said game to begin with.
CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Here’s another idea. Can we slow it the heck down on how many cosmetics are going to be in the game? I’m not saying stop making new cosmetics but gosh damn, there’s already a new, totally unique cosmetic every month until release, plus all the ones earn able in game, plus the ones that will be in the cash shop after launch, plus alterations based on race, plus alterations based on the Armorsmithing customizations they will likely be able to do. I mean my god, Steven, calm down. Giving out yet another cosmetic every month, this time just for logging in, will not only have zero value because everyone has it, no one earned it, and you’re de-valuing other cosmetics too because you’re flooding the market with WAY too many choices!
Here’s another idea. Can we slow it the heck down on how many cosmetics are going to be in the game? I’m not saying stop making new cosmetics but gosh damn, there’s already a new, totally unique cosmetic every month until release, plus all the ones earn able in game, plus the ones that will be in the cash shop after launch, plus alterations based on race, plus alterations based on the Armorsmithing customizations they will likely be able to do. I mean my god, Steven, calm down. Giving out yet another cosmetic every month, this time just for logging in, will not only have zero value because everyone has it, no one earned it, and you’re de-valuing other cosmetics too because you’re flooding the market with WAY too many choices!
Im 100% with this.
This is a brand new game and people forget it... We shouldnt have all those things, specially log in rewards in the launch day, we are getting ahead of ourselves.
I like how Albion Online does its reward system; first only for subscribers, second, requires doing some action to get XX amount of daily points to receive at a small fame boost, another amount of activity to get a weekly chest filled with goodies and finally a monthly award (and again based on activity) for a monthly mount.
I think I'd rather they put their time into more ingame armors/weapons/etc than more cosmetics. I'd like to see the game fill with armor that means something rather than cosmetics that do nothing
Greetings again everyone! Thank you all so much for taking the time to chime in here and in our poll with your feedback on login rewards - I'm putting together a summary for our team now, but please don't hesitate to continue voting and adding more replies here!
At first when I saw the poll a few days ago, I initially voted in favor of log-in rewards (because who doesn't like "free" stuff ). But after thinking and reading through this thread, I have changed my mind on the matter. Although I think that maybe small, seasonal gifts might be cool (e.g. a free beer at the local tavern with a cool buff that is available to everyone whether they are logged in or not); log-in rewards should not be needed. And yes, I agree that the game should be good enough to entice users to want to play even without log-in rewards. I know back in the early days of WoW... I couldn't wait to log in and play each day and adventure... because the game was just that good! And I believe that Intrepid Studios has what it takes to make an amazing game that provides that kind of feeling as well.
So, thank you all for sharing your opinions and like LieutenantToast said, vote and keep the replies coming.
I love the non-P2W model and understand the need for cosmetics to generate revenue, but I do worry that this game might be a little cosmetic heavy potentially.
So I've had a long discussion with my community on this topic ever since Steven brought it up, and I'll try to capture as many perspectives as I am able to on the pros, the cons, and the alternatives that we came up with.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, and really appreciate the very well thought out, and worded, response that TSG took the time to write and post.
At first when I saw the poll a few days ago, I initially voted in favor of log-in rewards (because who doesn't like "free" stuff ). But after thinking and reading through this thread, I have changed my mind on the matter.
I actually thought about that a few days ago. What if people vote first, then change their minds?
@LieutenantToast is there any way to add an unvote function to the board? I have seen it work on other forums, so it might work here as well. Right now there is a clear winner in this poll, but sometimes it's a close call and people misclick or change their minds, and an unvote function might be good.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If I understand the Cosmetic Coin mechanic correctly...
As proposed, it's problematic.... because that means I could miss out on that month's cosmetic and that's what causes the feeling of pressure.
There should simply be a Cosmetic Coin shop. Different cosmetics are worth different amounts - you can purchase them whenever you have accrued enough Cosmetic Coins. Cosmetics should not be only available for a set period of time and then become unavailable, they should always be available if you have enough coin.
This is the way it works in No Man's Sky - it feels great. Sure, you do actually have to complete a quick 5-10 minute daily to earn the Cosmetic Coin, but skipping days or weeks does not feel like a penalty.
I would say instead of a daily login reward, wich is the mobile gaming approach, a big events, big moments rewards would have more value, as an example, a never avaliable again, alpha cosmetic, a beta cosmetic, a first day launch reward, a 1 year subscription reward, this dates have meaning, and if you are a subscribe at that time you get it, if you are not, bad luck for you, and I say subscribe, supporter of the game, you don't even have to login a specific day to get it, it is there in your mailbox for when you login, whenever that be.
Logging 365 days a year should not be necessary, specially in a game with a subscription scenario, that creates a "need to" mentality and that will eventually evolve to, thats a fucking chore mentality, and lets be real here, no one likes chores. Doesn't matter if you have the time or not, having an obligation for so long is not healthy.
With that said, the achievement system can be used to reward people with logins, without and obligation to login, as an example, login 100 days, you get this reward, login 1000 days, you get this reward, this may take someone that time, 100 or 1000 days, and take another 2000 days, it will reward you for you attendance without detriment of the others, you could even make days in a row what would be close to daily login system, but as an achievement system is always there to be achieved, and can be prioritized by those who can, and want to.
@LieutenantToast is there any way to add an unvote function to the board? I have seen it work on other forums, so it might work here as well. Right now there is a clear winner in this poll, but sometimes it's a close call and people misclick or change their minds, and an unvote function might be good.
🤔 I poked around a bit and did some searching - there doesn't appear to be a way at the moment to customize our polls with an unvote/revote option through Vanilla, so unfortunately there's currently no way for you to edit your vote once it's cast. Since I agree this might be helpful functionality to have in the future, I'll make a note to investigate further what other options we may have on that front!
The problem with asking this question to the community is that the average forum dweller doesn’t have enough business marketing or microeconomics education to understand how something like daily login rewards increases profits, improves engagement, and helps to retain player base while creating a minuscule impact on gameplay.
Do you like fast patches, additional content, high quality servers? Well, these things cost money. Watching the dev vids, there have been multiple times where they have said [para] “that would be cool but it’s not in the budget” (example: racial attack animation)
Many games use daily login rewards because they are a marketing tool that works. It’s not the rewards that are bad, it’s how it’s done. If the rewards are cosmetic and not economy driven, these types of rewards are great, and effective. If they mess with the economy (like they do in ESO and BDO) then they are bad.
My suggestion? Combine daily rewards with cosmetic RNG chances (account bound!). Make a system where the logging in gets you chances to roll for rng cosmetics, some of which are super rare and super cool. Change the cosmetics monthly and repeat semi-annually.
The problem with asking this question to the community is that the average forum dweller doesn’t have enough business marketing or microeconomics education to understand how something like daily login rewards increases profits, improves engagement, and helps to retain player base while creating a minuscule impact on gameplay.
It doesn't do anything of the sort in a subscription based game. Unless you have some sort of study that backs up that claim? If so I'd like to see it.
As for the "miniscule impact" you mention, it sure doesn't for me. It has a major negative impact on the game. And I am clearly not alone in this, as is obvious from a lot of the posts in this thread.
What about tossing the login system all together. Do "skill coin". People do what they like best and get a token. Crafting some of the best gear that character can make or doing the most avg dps on a boss fight or healing/tanking. Let people get tokens for skins that apply to their skill. Doesn't mean you have to play more or less but you get to look the part you play more. To many games have daily logins now. But if someone likes what they do in the game then they can take pride to show off the skin of a killer, master creator, or gatherer of supplies.
Please, stay away from the whole "daily" design philosophy.
My passion for this game comes from the fact that you seem to really want to make a quality game.
That you already are planning to include (imo) toxic retention mechanisms that are the hallmark of F2P marketplaces (dressed as games) is hugely disappointing.
As many have pointed out already, if your goal really is to reward players, having a loyalty based reward system based on subscription time is much better.
The only good reason for doing a daily login is to make players log in even when they don't want to play, and then splash an aggressive cash shop in their face.
Please, don't be that company. Be better, as you have promised us all these years. I have faith in you.
The problem with asking this question to the community is that the average forum dweller doesn’t have enough business marketing or microeconomics education to understand how something like daily login rewards increases profits, improves engagement, and helps to retain player base while creating a minuscule impact on gameplay.
It doesn't do anything of the sort in a subscription based game. Unless you have some sort of study that backs up that claim? If so I'd like to see it.
As for the "miniscule impact" you mention, it sure doesn't for me. It has a major negative impact on the game. And I am clearly not alone in this, as is obvious from a lot of the posts in this thread.
Login rewards are an example of a basic marketing mechanism known as "incentives". Marketing incentives work and there is an entire profession dedicated to understanding why, how, and how much. It is called analytics. I'm not posting here to give a lesson in business econ. My point is that games, even awesome games, need income.
Yes, there is a subscription, but the game still needs to gain and retain customers so that intrepid can afford to hire the talent it takes to keep adding cool stuff to the game, and to make all the cool stuff they've been promising work well. Practically speaking, the game can be better if it can make more money in ways that don't disrupt the in-game power balance or economy.
What do bound, cosmetic daily login rewards really cost you as the player? Do they make your in game efforts and success somehow less valuable? Not having them has a cost too. The cost is what we could have had if Intrepid had the ability to hire an extra couple of artists or programmers.
The question should be "How could login rewards be implemented in a way that would not disrupt your gameplay." Not, "should we have them."
The question should be "How could login rewards be implemented in a way that would not disrupt your gameplay." Not, "should we have them."
The only way that daily login rewards would not be manipulative and disruptive is if you got the reward whether you logged in or not. If you miss Tuesday but log in Wednesday, then on logging in, you get both Tuesday's and Wednesday's rewards. Which would defeat the object of the system in the first place. As you say, the threat of "If you don't do this, then I'm not giving you this..." isn't a new concept, but it's not one that retains customers long-term. It's put me off multiple games, and has been the cause of me stopping playing some of them.
One of the main issues I see with login rewards/currency is at its fundamentals, it's just a time-gated system under the guise of a "reward".
It's main objective is player retention, essentially a daily requirement to login rather than something you want to login for, especially if it would only reward cosmetics, there would be the feeling of being compelled to login for something you actually don't even need, players min-max regardless of what it is.
If it were added, it should be added with catch-up mechanics in the form of questlines/daily quests that eventually would see you in-line with someone that had logged in from day one, even if you started 30 days late.
There is no reason to force people starting one day late to forever be "behind", other than you want to also offer the same cosmetics on the marketplace and incentivise buying it for real currency over waiting, which is scumbag tactics used in the type of games Steven is trying to not replicate and has played in the past. (XL)
Comments
Everyone loves beneficial suprises, not so much detrimental surpises.
Either way, a surprise is a surprise because it is...wait for it.... 'unexpected'
For me though, life is full of ups and downs.
I would find it just as interesting to be confronted by random PvE muggers/assassins, intent on taking goods,
as random PvE messengers that come bearing gifts, from anonymous benefactors.
Even more so, if there is a quest line hidden behind the intentions of the good and the bad.
But that goes back to a 'nothing happens/exists without a reason philosophy'.
If the reason is logging in, as opposed to playing the game,
its kind of like breaking the 4th wall to me.
"Punished" may be a strong word, but psychologically people are much more driven when they feel they would miss out rather than getting a reward (FOMO is a more powerful driver of behavior than a reward). This is one of the psychological entrapments many games use today, which may be good for the short-term, but is not only bad for the long-term but also predatory when done intentionally.
Now this is more of personal opinion as I'm not a collector, but I believe that the only people who would care about cosmetic daily login rewards are collectors. It's not something that you can "flex", since all you did was log in; nothing special. I imagine the cosmetics would mostly consist of recolors which let's be honest... very few people really care about. If they aren't then it could be argued it would take development time away from more important things, but I don't know how much time that would be so I won't go there.
Some people have suggested subscription based login rewards, but I'm also against that as it falls to many of the same entrapments that daily cosmetic rewards do.
TL;DR
Such a minor reward most people wouldn't care about when they get it, but would still feel pressured into getting it (FOMO). The game itself should be the reward for logging in, without the need for cheap/minor rewards as a means of getting people to login through arguably predatory psychological exploits (negative reinforcement skinner box/operant conditioning chamber).
However, I could see something like on a quarterly/yearly basis we check your achievements and based off of achievement completion you will receive a different tier of cosmetic rewards. This can then be updated during new expansions. Rewarding people who play and commit time into the game more or less on how much they have committed.
People have suggested using a token system where you have to log in like 15 or 20 days to purchase the monthly cosmetic but I think a better solution would be to have a weekly quest that gives you 13 tokens so you could get a total of 52 across 4 weeks BUT have the cosmetic/decor item only cost 48 tokens so that you could miss approximately 4 weeks of the year and still have enough tokens to afford all of the cosmetics. This wouldn't pressure people to log in every day and it would also allow people to make up for the occasional missed week. I also think that the quests should be a little difficult not just running things around the map and killing super easy mobs.
I also really like the idea of giving subbed accounts a special cosmetic for however long they've been continuously subbed, but only every 3 months or so.
I think a contrast should be made with seasonal items or cosmetics, missing out on a timed event doesn't feel nearly as bad since, I would have had to participate in the event, and not simply login. Login bonuses are easy enough to gain that even when I'm not grinding the game daily, I feel like I should at least login.
If you are asking me, I would prefer no login bonuses to any at all. That being said, it's not really that big of a deal to me, if this game ends up having login bonuses I know they will be purely cosmetic which I would be fine with. But again, I think to avoid the potential feeling of loss with returning players, or players that are taking a break, no login bonus is the wave.
Steven's second quote. "I'm open to discussions on frequency." Does that mean he's already made up his mind about the god awful cosmetics?
How are coins any better? How does it not create pressure. Each month there's a unique cosmetic. Purchasable for 30 coins.
Needs 30 days of login in. What about February?
How about giving these "unique" looks to artisans instead? Tie it to the gameplay.
There is one very important thing you need to grasp
Cosmetic rewards, or any rewards just for logging in aren't rewards.
Rewards should be linked to achieving things.
Login in isn't an achievement.
Daily rewards shouldn't be used as a motivational tool.
Daily rewards either create fomo or they are not important enough in the first place. When they are not important, why have them? And if they are used to motivate, then they create fomo. And fear is never a good, sustainable, long-term motivation. Either the player is motivated to play the game or not. Login rewards won't change that. The game should be enjoyable and motivating on its own and if that's the case login rewards are obsolete.
Daily rewards are great for making players open the game SHORT TERM, but not more than that.
I like the idea of rewarding players, who don't have much time.
Though, in my opinion that should be done through daily reward systems connected with an event . For example: lets say there is a Halloween event, then maybe a daily reward system over the period of a month could be a good idea. In which you have to log in 21 days out of the 28-30 to get a special event cosmetic in the end and little things along the way. Or maybe only for a week or two. Have daily rewards to make the event special.
I know Steven is against participation rewards, but still.
Players want to show off, that they were there. Clash of clans just came to my mind. Everybody kept their christmas trees and stuff.
Just don't make them continously!
Shallow games. Boring games. Poorly designed games. Shitty games. Games designed to maximize your log in time so they can sell you stuff.
What motivates you to log into a game shouldn't be some trinket they throw at you for participating in the most basic, simple task there is, turning the game on. What motivates you should be the quality of the game, and the quality of the content in that game.
If you need a log in reward, may be time to reevaluate why you are playing said game to begin with.
Im 100% with this.
This is a brand new game and people forget it... We shouldnt have all those things, specially log in rewards in the launch day, we are getting ahead of ourselves.
So, thank you all for sharing your opinions and like LieutenantToast said, vote and keep the replies coming.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, and really appreciate the very well thought out, and worded, response that TSG took the time to write and post.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
I actually thought about that a few days ago. What if people vote first, then change their minds?
@LieutenantToast is there any way to add an unvote function to the board? I have seen it work on other forums, so it might work here as well. Right now there is a clear winner in this poll, but sometimes it's a close call and people misclick or change their minds, and an unvote function might be good.
As proposed, it's problematic.... because that means I could miss out on that month's cosmetic and that's what causes the feeling of pressure.
There should simply be a Cosmetic Coin shop. Different cosmetics are worth different amounts - you can purchase them whenever you have accrued enough Cosmetic Coins. Cosmetics should not be only available for a set period of time and then become unavailable, they should always be available if you have enough coin.
This is the way it works in No Man's Sky - it feels great. Sure, you do actually have to complete a quick 5-10 minute daily to earn the Cosmetic Coin, but skipping days or weeks does not feel like a penalty.
Logging 365 days a year should not be necessary, specially in a game with a subscription scenario, that creates a "need to" mentality and that will eventually evolve to, thats a fucking chore mentality, and lets be real here, no one likes chores. Doesn't matter if you have the time or not, having an obligation for so long is not healthy.
With that said, the achievement system can be used to reward people with logins, without and obligation to login, as an example, login 100 days, you get this reward, login 1000 days, you get this reward, this may take someone that time, 100 or 1000 days, and take another 2000 days, it will reward you for you attendance without detriment of the others, you could even make days in a row what would be close to daily login system, but as an achievement system is always there to be achieved, and can be prioritized by those who can, and want to.
🤔 I poked around a bit and did some searching - there doesn't appear to be a way at the moment to customize our polls with an unvote/revote option through Vanilla, so unfortunately there's currently no way for you to edit your vote once it's cast. Since I agree this might be helpful functionality to have in the future, I'll make a note to investigate further what other options we may have on that front!
Do you like fast patches, additional content, high quality servers? Well, these things cost money. Watching the dev vids, there have been multiple times where they have said [para] “that would be cool but it’s not in the budget” (example: racial attack animation)
Many games use daily login rewards because they are a marketing tool that works. It’s not the rewards that are bad, it’s how it’s done. If the rewards are cosmetic and not economy driven, these types of rewards are great, and effective. If they mess with the economy (like they do in ESO and BDO) then they are bad.
My suggestion? Combine daily rewards with cosmetic RNG chances (account bound!). Make a system where the logging in gets you chances to roll for rng cosmetics, some of which are super rare and super cool. Change the cosmetics monthly and repeat semi-annually.
It doesn't do anything of the sort in a subscription based game. Unless you have some sort of study that backs up that claim? If so I'd like to see it.
As for the "miniscule impact" you mention, it sure doesn't for me. It has a major negative impact on the game. And I am clearly not alone in this, as is obvious from a lot of the posts in this thread.
My passion for this game comes from the fact that you seem to really want to make a quality game.
That you already are planning to include (imo) toxic retention mechanisms that are the hallmark of F2P marketplaces (dressed as games) is hugely disappointing.
As many have pointed out already, if your goal really is to reward players, having a loyalty based reward system based on subscription time is much better.
The only good reason for doing a daily login is to make players log in even when they don't want to play, and then splash an aggressive cash shop in their face.
Please, don't be that company. Be better, as you have promised us all these years. I have faith in you.
Login rewards are an example of a basic marketing mechanism known as "incentives". Marketing incentives work and there is an entire profession dedicated to understanding why, how, and how much. It is called analytics. I'm not posting here to give a lesson in business econ. My point is that games, even awesome games, need income.
Yes, there is a subscription, but the game still needs to gain and retain customers so that intrepid can afford to hire the talent it takes to keep adding cool stuff to the game, and to make all the cool stuff they've been promising work well. Practically speaking, the game can be better if it can make more money in ways that don't disrupt the in-game power balance or economy.
What do bound, cosmetic daily login rewards really cost you as the player? Do they make your in game efforts and success somehow less valuable? Not having them has a cost too. The cost is what we could have had if Intrepid had the ability to hire an extra couple of artists or programmers.
The question should be "How could login rewards be implemented in a way that would not disrupt your gameplay." Not, "should we have them."
The only way that daily login rewards would not be manipulative and disruptive is if you got the reward whether you logged in or not. If you miss Tuesday but log in Wednesday, then on logging in, you get both Tuesday's and Wednesday's rewards. Which would defeat the object of the system in the first place. As you say, the threat of "If you don't do this, then I'm not giving you this..." isn't a new concept, but it's not one that retains customers long-term. It's put me off multiple games, and has been the cause of me stopping playing some of them.
It's main objective is player retention, essentially a daily requirement to login rather than something you want to login for, especially if it would only reward cosmetics, there would be the feeling of being compelled to login for something you actually don't even need, players min-max regardless of what it is.
If it were added, it should be added with catch-up mechanics in the form of questlines/daily quests that eventually would see you in-line with someone that had logged in from day one, even if you started 30 days late.
There is no reason to force people starting one day late to forever be "behind", other than you want to also offer the same cosmetics on the marketplace and incentivise buying it for real currency over waiting, which is scumbag tactics used in the type of games Steven is trying to not replicate and has played in the past. (XL)