While I get the point of your suggestion, it does open up more issues than it would at first seem.
The first issue is that players aren't necessarily just "part of" one node, but rather a cluster of nodes. As an example, guilds aren't going to require all their members be citizens of one node, because guilds will want to take advantage of amenities from multiple nodes (type specific, religion specific, social organization specific etc).
The other thing this would do is make it so players that are not citizens of a node (either by choice or circumstance) are unable to be non-combatants.
The node you're "part of". You can flag as a non combatant there. Once you travel a certain amount of distance from your node, you would then be flagged as a combatant. More of a stepping into the badlands situation.
Yeah, i'm aware anyone can attack you. Doesn't really matter who. The flagging systems seems more of a way to "punish" players who gank players that dont want to be flagged for PvP or for those who want to wipe a raid and steal their loot.
it's definitely not a perfect system but I understand its intent regardless of how blunt my example was.
As long as normal corruption rules applies within your home node. I don't see the issue. All this would do is make it so casuals never leave their home node. That is... if they ever make it far enough into the game to become a citizen... lol
lol, true. Just curious if it was something they may have brought up.
Yeah, the corruption rules would still apply as normal. There is a good chance people may just attack you anyways.
The only thing I see being good with the "non-combatant" in terms of traveling from node to node (assuming you dont get ganked regardless) is that you'll have that little safety net while traveling alone or with a group to provide some safer passage. It's a good "traveler" status as well.
@Vhaeyne the flagging system definitely seems to fit the games design well regardless of some concerns people have in terms of open world dungeons/raids. Seems like there is going to be an intercut rulesets and conditions with the corruptions based on situations. Curious to how it develops.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yeah, which is why I get so annoyed when people call to make it less harsh. The endless threads complaining about how harsh death and corruption is drives me nuts.
If anyone is looking at the death or corruption system and does not think it is very forgiving already. To me, that is a sign that that person might not be in the Target Audience.
Those people are in the Target Audience.
The devs expect such people to figure out they are OK with the gameplay once they actually play.
Yeah, which is why I get so annoyed when people call to make it less harsh. The endless threads complaining about how harsh death and corruption is drives me nuts.
If anyone is looking at the death or corruption system and does not think it is very forgiving already. To me, that is a sign that that person might not be in the Target Audience.
Those people are in the Target Audience.
The devs expect such people to figure out they are OK with the gameplay once they actually play.
Nothing wrong with not being the target audience, but I am surprised they are flat up leaving out that segment that are not interested in being ganked/camped as an after work activity. All it would take is 1-2 servers to get them in. If I cant go out and gather some wood without being ganked then I have a better use for my time.
It has already been made very clear, there will not be any alternate ruleset servers.
They are not even going to label some of the servers as RP (literally just a label on the server), let alone designate some servers as PvE, which would necessitate major aspects of the game be completely redesigned (such as all the PvE content, as that is designed with the notion of other players attacking you mid fight in mind and would not be suitable for a server where that is not possible).
If you want to "wait and see", cool, no one is stopping you.
Just be aware that Intrepid have already given this question an answer.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Nothing wrong with not being the target audience, but I am surprised they are flat up leaving out that segment that are not interested in being ganked/camped as an after work activity. All it would take is 1-2 servers to get them in. If I cant go out and gather some wood without being ganked then I have a better use for my time.
Corruption is intended to deter ganking. You'll have to take a look at launch to see how well it works.
Nothing wrong with not being the target audience, but I am surprised they are flat up leaving out that segment that are not interested in being ganked/camped as an after work activity. All it would take is 1-2 servers to get them in. If I cant go out and gather some wood without being ganked then I have a better use for my time.
Didnt you say if PvP is a thing you are out?
Also lol... imagine coming back from work looking to go and pick up wood.
Open world PvP isnt going anywhere. Stick around and complain all you want.
Nothing wrong with not being the target audience, but I am surprised they are flat up leaving out that segment that are not interested in being ganked/camped as an after work activity. All it would take is 1-2 servers to get them in. If I cant go out and gather some wood without being ganked then I have a better use for my time.
Leth it's not going to be that bad. Read up on the systems of the game on the Ashes wiki, try to understand why everything is the way it is. You're not going to be ganked every time you go gather wood. Not even the majority of the time, just occasionally you might. Unless George Black sees you then you're definitely fucked.
If I end up in the same server with a couple of ppl from forums or discord Ill certainly pk a bit.
Talk is talk, let's see people can play video games.
But I dont think so. Ill be in a EU server with a good L2 Greek presence.
Nothing wrong with not being the target audience, but I am surprised they are flat up leaving out that segment that are not interested in being ganked/camped as an after work activity. All it would take is 1-2 servers to get them in. If I cant go out and gather some wood without being ganked then I have a better use for my time.
Leth it's not going to be that bad. Read up on the systems of the game on the Ashes wiki, try to understand why everything is the way it is. You're not going to be ganked every time you go gather wood. Not even the majority of the time, just occasionally you might. Unless George Black sees you then you're definitely fucked.
I don't know why you think that. The corruption system is a deterrent but it's not going to stop a green from going red. It's there to stop a red from continuing to gank people. There will be a lot of opportunistic ganking. The corruption system punishes greens for not fighting back with harsher loss penalties. So the violent green is more likely to gamble you going purple. It's almost always the right option if your class is a favorable match up and they aren't citizens of your node or guild.
Keeping craft oriented people in the game is going to be a challenge no matter what in the current design. And that's not even touching losses on node destruction. It's bad to sugar coat it for people on the fringes of the target audience when Intrepid hasn't explicitly addresed the design challenges of ensuring the economy stays healthy.
It doesnt punish greens.
You are looking at it the wrong way.
If you die to a mob you lose X loot and get Y xp debt.
If you die to a player you lose X loot and get Y xp debt.
If you die as a purple to another purple you lose X/2 loot and get Y/2 xp debt.
Keeping craft oriented people in the game is going to be a challenge no matter what in the current design. And that's not even touching losses on node destruction. It's bad to sugar coat it for people on the fringes of the target audience when Intrepid hasn't explicitly addresed the design challenges of ensuring the economy stays healthy.
It's not. I love crafting. I love open world PvP. I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.
It doesnt punish greens.
You are looking at it the wrong way.
If you die to a mob you lose X loot and get Y xp debt.
If you die to a player you lose X loot and get Y xp debt.
If you die as a purple to another purple you lose X/2 loot and get Y/2 xp debt.
Stop victimizing yourselves
Ah yes, on account of all those full-agency 15-levels-over-them mobs that they definitely choose to hang around all the time because it's 'fun and gutsy' to gather in areas where they might be deleted in 3-4 hits.
Shame on people for thinking those aren't the same thing.
Any pvp player can and will participate in the economy if they want to remain competitive.
If people just want to craft there is eso and ffxiv. Nobody will gang you there.
I agree there will be opportunistic ganking. I think there's going to be a lot of corruption system chicken where players attack greens and hope they flag up to fight back. There will be lots of shenanigans.
I don't think the game will devolve into mass murder where every time you go gather wood you're definitely getting ganked. Steven and the devs have specifically said that is not the intention of the system and that it will be tweaked to get the desired result.
The guy sounds like he has zero tolerance for pvp. I'm not trying to convince him to play, just told him to read the wiki and understand the systems, and let him know that it's not going to be as bad as he's thinking, because it won't. Or the devs are lying.
I'm not trying to convince him to play, just told him to read the wiki and understand the systems, and let him know that it's not going to be as bad as he's thinking, because it won't. Or the devs are lying.
Now this one I don't understand.
BDO has the concept of 'going Perma-red'. The death penalty, while not as bad, is still there. People do this for the 'challenge' and 'fun', right?
These people will kill literally anyone they can and see how long they can get away with it, for ... no reward whatsoever.
They do this often enough that people call out their presence in world chat as a warning. In BDO you solve this by switching servers.
So 'how bad is the person thinking', is the question. I get attacked more on gathering/farming alts in BDO, by 'random perma-reds roaming the world looking for weak people to kill and mock', than anything else.
What exactly is the ability of the devs to do something that would make them 'not lying'? They never said you couldn't do what I'm talking about, so what would make it less likely in Ashes?
Didnt you say if PvP is a thing you are out?
Also lol... imagine coming back from work looking to go and pick up wood.
Open world PvP isnt going anywhere. Stick around and complain all you want.
Imagine thinking that someone offering their preferences on a board dedicated to a game in development is “complaining”.
I said if inescapable PvP was a requirement to play the game then I am not interested. I did not say PvP itself would be a deal breaker.
I also said that I am interested in waiting and seeing if they change their mind, just like new world did.
Not sure why it ticks people off so much that I have a preference and I am okay with it not being met in the game. If the system that is implemented looks tolerable I might change my mind.
But if something is possible and gives some sort of reward(extrinsic or intrinsic) someone will do it and explicitly take pleasure on ruining someone else’s game time. I personally would prefer to avoid that and if I can’t do that in ashes? That’s okay, I will just quit playing MMOs once classic TBC is done.
It doesnt punish greens.
You are looking at it the wrong way.
If you die to a mob you lose X loot and get Y xp debt.
If you die to a player you lose X loot and get Y xp debt.
If you die as a purple to another purple you lose X/2 loot and get Y/2 xp debt.
Stop victimizing yourselves
I fail to see how pointing out the hazards of gathering to someone else is 'victimizing myself'.
If you fight back against a ganker and lose, you lose less than if you don't fight back.
It's a negative penalty to try and encourage pvp. (And I am not arguing for or against it.)
If I lose to a mob when gathering that's 100% on me. Mobs are more avoidable and predictable than an opposing player who can have way better gear and levels than you causing you to lose with very little agency in the matter. They aren't equivalent failure cases. I have more agency in what mobs are around me than I do people.
Keeping craft oriented people in the game is going to be a challenge no matter what in the current design. And that's not even touching losses on node destruction. It's bad to sugar coat it for people on the fringes of the target audience when Intrepid hasn't explicitly addresed the design challenges of ensuring the economy stays healthy.
It's not. I love crafting. I love open world PvP. I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.
I do too I am just realistic. We are talking about a person who went 'I want a pve server, I guess this game isnt for me.' They aren't as interested in pvp as you or me. To sugar coat it and say it won't happen as often/badly as they think may not be a lie but it isn't helpful to them either. If intrepid had more explicit plans for dealing with pve focused people I wouldn't be as likely to say it is irresponsible. But they haven't, so it is.
I don't know all the systems of BDO so I'm not going to try to compare the two.
All I can tell you is what Steven has been saying for years and what's in the wiki. My general impression of what Steven wants is to not have rampant ganking. I think he wants a system where being perma corrupted is possible, but hard enough to deter the vast majority of players.
Perma corrupted will deal with gear loss, bounty hunters that know where they're at on the map (which I think is a bad idea), kill on sight to anyone who sees them with no consequences, stat dampening.
They cant trade things between players. They cant use any storage except their own freehold.
"The more skill and stat dampening applies (lower health and mana, lower gear proficiency), until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat.[9] This dampening only affects PvP combat.[10]"
They literally can kill enough to where they actually can't even kill anymore. It's gonna be a rough life.
I do too I am just realistic. We are talking about a person who went 'I want a pve server, I guess this game isnt for me.' They aren't as interested in pvp as you or me. To sugar coat it and say it won't happen as often/badly as they think may not be a lie but it isn't helpful to them either. If intrepid had more explicit plans for dealing with pve focused people I wouldn't be as likely to say it is irresponsible. But they haven't, so it is.
I'm saying what the devs have said about the game and their vision for it. If that's irresponsible then I guess I'm irresponsible. Except its not, so I'm not.
I don't know all the systems of BDO so I'm not going to try to compare the two.
All I can tell you is what Steven has been saying for years and what's in the wiki. My general impression of what Steven wants is to not have rampant ganking. I think he wants a system where being perma corrupted is possible, but hard enough to deter the vast majority of players.
Perma corrupted will deal with gear loss, bounty hunters that know where they're at on the map (which I think is a bad idea), kill on sight to anyone who sees them with no consequences, stat dampening.
They cant trade things between players. They cant use any storage except their own freehold.
"The more skill and stat dampening applies (lower health and mana, lower gear proficiency), until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat.[9] This dampening only affects PvP combat.[10]"
They literally can kill enough to where they actually can't even kill anymore. It's gonna be a rough life.
Right but they can work it off, and they lose some corruption when they die.
There are people out there whose primary enjoyment is to make other people miserable.
I'm not here trying to say 'yeah this will definitely be exactly like BDO'. This is about psychology, not specifics.
But I presume what you're really saying is 'there are very few people who will treat literally every system as a challenge and do it anyway' because the Devs integrated something to make them have to grind between their murder sprees.
This is definitely another conversation I shouldn't have gotten into. I'll see myself out.
Right but they can work it off, and they lose some corruption when they die.
There are people out there whose primary enjoyment is to make other people miserable.
I'm not here trying to say 'yeah this will definitely be exactly like BDO'. This is about psychology, not specifics.
But I presume what you're really saying is 'there are very few people who will treat literally every system as a challenge and do it anyway' because the Devs integrated something to make them have to grind between their murder sprees.
This is definitely another conversation I shouldn't have gotten into. I'll see myself out.
Perhaps you're forgetting about the:
Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained. The higher the corruption score:
The more skill and stat dampening applies (lower health and mana, lower gear proficiency), until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat. This dampening only affects PvP combat.
No that's not what I'm saying. There's definitely people that will try out being corrupted for the challenge. I might. I don't know how many will, whether very few or not. Probably more than very few. Some will succeed and be good at it and some will struggle and fail.
None of that is really the point. Steven controls how all of this will pan out. There are a lot of unanswered questions. But the indication he's given based on what I've seen is that it's not a design goal of Ashes to have constant murder where you cant ever gather wood without being murdered. There will definitely be murder though, it'll happen.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would imagine the frequency of pk`ing that goes ahead now during testing would be higher than in the actual game when live as your actions when live are an ongoing influence of your reputation and position in the world.
I would imagine the frequency of pk`ing that goes ahead now during testing would be higher than in the actual game when live as your actions when live are an ongoing influence of your reputation and position in the world.
I was thinking something similar, I imagine that the exact baseline of the corruption mechanic will be calibrated in Beta One and Two.
Comments
The first issue is that players aren't necessarily just "part of" one node, but rather a cluster of nodes. As an example, guilds aren't going to require all their members be citizens of one node, because guilds will want to take advantage of amenities from multiple nodes (type specific, religion specific, social organization specific etc).
The other thing this would do is make it so players that are not citizens of a node (either by choice or circumstance) are unable to be non-combatants.
lol, true. Just curious if it was something they may have brought up.
Yeah, the corruption rules would still apply as normal. There is a good chance people may just attack you anyways.
The only thing I see being good with the "non-combatant" in terms of traveling from node to node (assuming you dont get ganked regardless) is that you'll have that little safety net while traveling alone or with a group to provide some safer passage. It's a good "traveler" status as well.
The devs expect such people to figure out they are OK with the gameplay once they actually play.
Nothing wrong with not being the target audience, but I am surprised they are flat up leaving out that segment that are not interested in being ganked/camped as an after work activity. All it would take is 1-2 servers to get them in. If I cant go out and gather some wood without being ganked then I have a better use for my time.
It has already been made very clear, there will not be any alternate ruleset servers.
They are not even going to label some of the servers as RP (literally just a label on the server), let alone designate some servers as PvE, which would necessitate major aspects of the game be completely redesigned (such as all the PvE content, as that is designed with the notion of other players attacking you mid fight in mind and would not be suitable for a server where that is not possible).
If you want to "wait and see", cool, no one is stopping you.
Just be aware that Intrepid have already given this question an answer.
Didnt you say if PvP is a thing you are out?
Also lol... imagine coming back from work looking to go and pick up wood.
Open world PvP isnt going anywhere. Stick around and complain all you want.
You think the people who dislike core systems of the game are in the "Target Audience"...
Please explain this more.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Leth it's not going to be that bad. Read up on the systems of the game on the Ashes wiki, try to understand why everything is the way it is. You're not going to be ganked every time you go gather wood. Not even the majority of the time, just occasionally you might. Unless George Black sees you then you're definitely fucked.
Hehe - well maybe he will be target player.
Talk is talk, let's see people can play video games.
But I dont think so. Ill be in a EU server with a good L2 Greek presence.
I don't know why you think that. The corruption system is a deterrent but it's not going to stop a green from going red. It's there to stop a red from continuing to gank people. There will be a lot of opportunistic ganking. The corruption system punishes greens for not fighting back with harsher loss penalties. So the violent green is more likely to gamble you going purple. It's almost always the right option if your class is a favorable match up and they aren't citizens of your node or guild.
Keeping craft oriented people in the game is going to be a challenge no matter what in the current design. And that's not even touching losses on node destruction. It's bad to sugar coat it for people on the fringes of the target audience when Intrepid hasn't explicitly addresed the design challenges of ensuring the economy stays healthy.
You are looking at it the wrong way.
If you die to a mob you lose X loot and get Y xp debt.
If you die to a player you lose X loot and get Y xp debt.
If you die as a purple to another purple you lose X/2 loot and get Y/2 xp debt.
Stop victimizing yourselves
It's not. I love crafting. I love open world PvP. I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Ah yes, on account of all those full-agency 15-levels-over-them mobs that they definitely choose to hang around all the time because it's 'fun and gutsy' to gather in areas where they might be deleted in 3-4 hits.
Shame on people for thinking those aren't the same thing.
If people just want to craft there is eso and ffxiv. Nobody will gang you there.
I don't think the game will devolve into mass murder where every time you go gather wood you're definitely getting ganked. Steven and the devs have specifically said that is not the intention of the system and that it will be tweaked to get the desired result.
The guy sounds like he has zero tolerance for pvp. I'm not trying to convince him to play, just told him to read the wiki and understand the systems, and let him know that it's not going to be as bad as he's thinking, because it won't. Or the devs are lying.
Now this one I don't understand.
BDO has the concept of 'going Perma-red'. The death penalty, while not as bad, is still there. People do this for the 'challenge' and 'fun', right?
These people will kill literally anyone they can and see how long they can get away with it, for ... no reward whatsoever.
They do this often enough that people call out their presence in world chat as a warning. In BDO you solve this by switching servers.
So 'how bad is the person thinking', is the question. I get attacked more on gathering/farming alts in BDO, by 'random perma-reds roaming the world looking for weak people to kill and mock', than anything else.
What exactly is the ability of the devs to do something that would make them 'not lying'? They never said you couldn't do what I'm talking about, so what would make it less likely in Ashes?
Imagine thinking that someone offering their preferences on a board dedicated to a game in development is “complaining”.
I said if inescapable PvP was a requirement to play the game then I am not interested. I did not say PvP itself would be a deal breaker.
I also said that I am interested in waiting and seeing if they change their mind, just like new world did.
Not sure why it ticks people off so much that I have a preference and I am okay with it not being met in the game. If the system that is implemented looks tolerable I might change my mind.
But if something is possible and gives some sort of reward(extrinsic or intrinsic) someone will do it and explicitly take pleasure on ruining someone else’s game time. I personally would prefer to avoid that and if I can’t do that in ashes? That’s okay, I will just quit playing MMOs once classic TBC is done.
I fail to see how pointing out the hazards of gathering to someone else is 'victimizing myself'.
If you fight back against a ganker and lose, you lose less than if you don't fight back.
It's a negative penalty to try and encourage pvp. (And I am not arguing for or against it.)
If I lose to a mob when gathering that's 100% on me. Mobs are more avoidable and predictable than an opposing player who can have way better gear and levels than you causing you to lose with very little agency in the matter. They aren't equivalent failure cases. I have more agency in what mobs are around me than I do people.
I do too I am just realistic. We are talking about a person who went 'I want a pve server, I guess this game isnt for me.' They aren't as interested in pvp as you or me. To sugar coat it and say it won't happen as often/badly as they think may not be a lie but it isn't helpful to them either. If intrepid had more explicit plans for dealing with pve focused people I wouldn't be as likely to say it is irresponsible. But they haven't, so it is.
All I can tell you is what Steven has been saying for years and what's in the wiki. My general impression of what Steven wants is to not have rampant ganking. I think he wants a system where being perma corrupted is possible, but hard enough to deter the vast majority of players.
Perma corrupted will deal with gear loss, bounty hunters that know where they're at on the map (which I think is a bad idea), kill on sight to anyone who sees them with no consequences, stat dampening.
They cant trade things between players. They cant use any storage except their own freehold.
"The more skill and stat dampening applies (lower health and mana, lower gear proficiency), until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat.[9] This dampening only affects PvP combat.[10]"
They literally can kill enough to where they actually can't even kill anymore. It's gonna be a rough life.
AoC corruption system is based on L2.
I'm saying what the devs have said about the game and their vision for it. If that's irresponsible then I guess I'm irresponsible. Except its not, so I'm not.
Right but they can work it off, and they lose some corruption when they die.
There are people out there whose primary enjoyment is to make other people miserable.
I'm not here trying to say 'yeah this will definitely be exactly like BDO'. This is about psychology, not specifics.
But I presume what you're really saying is 'there are very few people who will treat literally every system as a challenge and do it anyway' because the Devs integrated something to make them have to grind between their murder sprees.
This is definitely another conversation I shouldn't have gotten into. I'll see myself out.
Perhaps you're forgetting about the:
Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained. The higher the corruption score:
The more skill and stat dampening applies (lower health and mana, lower gear proficiency), until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat. This dampening only affects PvP combat.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption
The most heavily deterrent on pk killing sprees.
Aren't we all sinners?
None of that is really the point. Steven controls how all of this will pan out. There are a lot of unanswered questions. But the indication he's given based on what I've seen is that it's not a design goal of Ashes to have constant murder where you cant ever gather wood without being murdered. There will definitely be murder though, it'll happen.
I was thinking something similar, I imagine that the exact baseline of the corruption mechanic will be calibrated in Beta One and Two.