They would understand. What is not understandable is people freaking out about not being permitted to use such addons. Just play the game, there are so many things that you need to do in there besides studying your combat logs.
I'll make you a deal. You don't tell me how to play the game, and I won't tell you how to play the game.
They would understand. What is not understandable is people freaking out about not being permitted to use such addons. Just play the game, there are so many things that you need to do in there besides studying your combat logs.
I'll make you a deal. You don't tell me how to play the game, and I won't tell you how to play the game.
Throw in there that I reckon you need to git gud and we have a deal.
you have a raider making a long post why they like dps meter, because it is a tool that helps them like gym equipment can help you get muscle (but you can of course get muscle without tools)
Then you get the wild "chad" hater, proclaiming how good he is in the unknown part of the universe he resides in - shitting on everyone he meets without ever using meters (i'm glad he didnt add as his resume being a tictactoe champion)
Then Noaani feels the disturbance in the force and a long back and forth of logic arguments vs The Catchphrase begins
Sports fitness has come a long way. In no small part thanks to tools.
I know, but you know how it is - there is always that guy from a pub in a small village that tells you with a beer in hand that he can get ripped in no time without any gym equipment and look like mr olympia
Sports fitness has come a long way. In no small part thanks to tools.
I know, but you know how it is - there is always that guy from a pub in a small village that tells you with a beer in hand that he can get ripped in no time without any gym equipment and look like mr olympia
I am that guy.
But I tell it to me with a beer in my hand... then I go to bed a few hours later.
Demand for tools, more tools, is ruining the visual enjoyment that people get from video games, since the screen is filled with logs and numbers.
It is ruining gameplay designs, with devs cutting corners around natural telegraphs or attacking enemies, in favour of signals, indicators and colours, in an attemp to complement the clutch reactions players are used to, since all they do is look at the UI and not the game.
It is ruining player interraction, where before, people would spend time getting familiar with somebody elses ability to lv up, kill a boss, fight in PvP. Now people ask for meter results or achievement proofs.
You dont get better with it. You rely on it.
I am glad that AoC seems to move away from them and I hope they do ban people for using 3rd party meters in order to protect the oldschool attributes I mentioned above.
1 VIsual : Easy solution : by beeing able to enable it or not you could simply take it off when you want to enjoy the game visuals etc ... ( so if i anderstand what you say , we also should take off the spell barres ? beceause they are on our screen and we can't fully enjoy the game ?? take off all UI at this point .... )
2 If people only ask about metrics they are not anderstanding the tool and its purpose , so the tool is not to blame but the ppl....
They would understand. What is not understandable is people freaking out about not being permitted to use such addons. Just play the game, there are so many things that you need to do in there besides studying your combat logs.
Your enjoyement in a MMORPG is maybe to do lifeskills stuff, or simply enjoy the countryside , but some of us actually love to improve our character and perform... what is wrong about it ? and the solution is so easy : put it so people can or not enable/show it. ---> everyone would be happy
and for those who don't want to share their infos ( dps etc ) could disable it so no one can see it.
There is an understandable worry that there will be an ilvl or dps score requirement for pickup groups and not having dps meter alltogether removes one way of that requirement existing
In spirit of those concerns there was many times proposed a guild only meter as an optional guild perk.
I get that people dont want meters in the game, but they are just going to exist no matter what - it is the option on the dev side to have it as a part of the game and thus have control over who is qualified to use it and where
or just bury heads in sand and pretend that ppl dont use them (like some ffxiv folk do )
you have a raider making a long post why they like dps meter, because it is a tool that helps them like gym equipment can help you get muscle (but you can of course get muscle without tools)
Then you get the wild "chad" hater, proclaiming how good he is in the unknown part of the universe he resides in - shitting on everyone he meets without ever using meters (i'm glad he didnt add as his resume being a tictactoe champion)
Then Noaani feels the disturbance in the force and a long back and forth of logic arguments vs The Catchphrase begins
It's not really like using gym equipment. It's more like being in a math competition and saying your not cheating by using a calculator
Or what could be a solution too : use a dps dummy , when you start hitting him it starts calculating and when you don't dps it for 10sc it says your dps
So you can midmax ( even if a combat and a dummy is not the same it can help you anderstand and optimise your rotation etc)
So with this solution no one can ask for your dps etc ( no point you could say anything ) but you can midmax if you want to.
This is not the solution i would like but if they don't want dps meters this could be a side solution for those who need those numbers
Or what could be a solution too : use a dps dummy , when you start hitting him it starts calculating and when you don't dps it for 10sc it says your dps
So you can midmax ( even if a combat and a dummy is not the same it can help you anderstand and optimise your rotation etc)
So with this solution no one can ask for your dps etc ( no point you could say anything ) but you can midmax if you want to.
This is not the solution i would like but if they don't want dps meters this could be a side solution for those who need those numbers
The downside of this is that a game like Ashes is going to have classes that affect how well you perform in combat - meaning that this training dummy would need to be able to work with a full group, not just one player.
Since it would need to work on a full group in order to do what it is intended to do, that means if you want to know how someone else performs, you simply need to take them along with you to have a go on that dummy.
To me, this is keeping any perceived negative aspects of a guild based combat tracker (only tracks combat of players in your group or raid that are also in your guild), but offers up virtually none of the benefits.
On the other hand, if Intrepid make the bard class not actually function as a support at all, something like this could work - but that just leaves issues with bards being worthless.
It's not really like using gym equipment. It's more like being in a math competition and saying your not cheating by using a calculator
Comparing meters to using calculator in math competition is completely wrong.
Minmaxing builds is often done outside of the game in spreadsheets to get the theory of it with some data and then is backed up by a custom simulation software that gets the theorycrafters performances of the builds in various situations.
All of that is done without the game running - so what do the meters actually do? They tell you what happened, what you've taken damage from what spells were not kicked etc. You can just setup screen capture and then go through the video to see what happened - which is the same thing that meters do, but in easily readable format
Not to mention that calculator in math competition computes instead of you and meters cannot control your char in any capacity (btw some math competitions allow calculator, because math is more than solving recited equation from teacher and require actual problem solving skills to extract equations from text)
It's not really like using gym equipment. It's more like being in a math competition and saying your not cheating by using a calculator
This is surprisingly apt, imo.
Once you hit high level math (most secondary, all tertiary), calculators in exams are expected - though the institution you are taking the exam through will likely have a list of acceptable models. At this level, knowing how to multiply is not the point - you are being tested on your ability to work out how to solve the problem.
On the other hand, people that are still struggling with basic math can't use a calculator in an exam - because that defeats the purpose.
Likewise with combat trackers, people that are playing the game at a basic level may look at it as cheating. However, those of us playing MMO's at the top end know better - the tracker is just a tool.
You don't use a combat tracker to assist you with the basics of a games combat - people that try to do this are the kind of people that complain about the space they take up on their screen, or that they spend all their time looking at the tracker and not the game, or any number of other inane things that just highlight how little the person actually knows about MMO's at the top end in relation to how much they think they know about MMO's at the top end.
Sigh this thread has been unearthed again... Welp it sparked an idea but i doubt anyone will care for it.
Make dps tracking an active ability a player must devote all of their characters functions to in order to use it. Meaning you have a player or players outside of the combat to track the dps done by the team.
Putting the knowledge into one players hands and allowing them to determine what is given out to the party could be the best way to implement this without it creating an extremely toxic environment. Only the most dedicated would bother to use it and they might only use it occasionally. It gives players the option without making it so free that it becomes mandatory for any group.
Make dps tracking an active ability a player must devote all of their characters functions to in order to use it. Meaning you have a player or players outside of the combat to track the dps done by the team.
This won't be ever used and ppl will rather use 3rd party overlay instead of this
Putting the knowledge into one players hands and allowing them to determine what is given out to the party could be the best way to implement this without it creating an extremely toxic environment. Only the most dedicated would bother to use it and they might only use it occasionally. It gives players the option without making it so free that it becomes mandatory for any group.
Meters have never created toxic environments, only toxic people can create those and they don't need meters for that
But don't worry - even if it was possible that meters wouldn't exist then you'd still have some player power ranking even if it is even the ilvl of your gear.
Also I hope you don't mean by a toxic environment the refusal to bring players that are not geared for the content.
And if you fear for being kicked mid run for being bad then i'd guess you were playing mmo's where replacing a player is quick and easy
Sigh this thread has been unearthed again... Welp it sparked an idea but i doubt anyone will care for it.
Make dps tracking an active ability a player must devote all of their characters functions to in order to use it. Meaning you have a player or players outside of the combat to track the dps done by the team.
Putting the knowledge into one players hands and allowing them to determine what is given out to the party could be the best way to implement this without it creating an extremely toxic environment. Only the most dedicated would bother to use it and they might only use it occasionally. It gives players the option without making it so free that it becomes mandatory for any group.
While this is a novel idea, it wouldn't work.
Any attempt at adding a combat tracker to Ashes needs to be done in an attempt to make it what is used rather than third party trackers.
This means any major hurdles (such as dedicating an entire player to it) simply won't convince people to use the in game tracker vs a third party one.
This is why the guild suggestion is still the best idea I am aware of. There are limits to it - you can't track combat of any player not in your guild.
When this is properly considered, it kills off every perceived issue I have seen directed at combat trackers, but still leaves the functionality in tact to ensure it is used instead of third party trackers.
Don't allow 3rd party addons and they dont have that backup. The point is to make it usable but not to the degree that everyone uses it. If its too easy to just slap down and use at any time people will feel forced to use it. If there are roadblocks to using it, it then becomes a novelty that some players are willing to use and some are not.
This is why the guild suggestion is still the best idea I am aware of. There are limits to it - you can't track combat of any player not in your guild.
Yeah a guild only tracker would be another way to do it. Basically you are signing up to join a guild and have a lower chance of encountering a player attempting to bash you over the head with your dps ranking since they will more often than not know you better.
"Don't allow 3rd party addons" - you can have that in rules, but they have no way of finding out if you do use it
Well i like ff14's approach. Go for it, use those 3rd party addons and as long as it doesnt have a direct impact they dont care to enforce ToS. But if you mention dps in-game your ass is grass.
Don't allow 3rd party addons and they dont have that backup.
I have used a combat tracker with a YouTube video of game play of Ashes. There is no scope left at all for any MMO to assume there will not be combat trackers.
The days of that being a developer decision are over.
Now sure, it maay well be that Intrepid ow FFXIV and ban people that talk about it.
However, since most group chat will be VoIP, there really isn't anything they can do about that.
So, Intrepid are currently saying they are not allowing a thing they can't even detect without breaking privacy laws, and are leaving players free to talk a out it all they want in one of the two communication methods in game - let alone Discord or other out of game communication channels.
That just seems both stupid and arbitrary to me - when instead they could add in a combat tracker and have a measure of control over it themselves.
Like, you can't objectively look at how it is going to go down and say that it is a better plan than Intrepid doing it in house and having it as a guild only system.
And if intrepid make a combat tracker that is "controlled" players will still make 3rd party combat trackers to gain an advantage since those will not be restricted by any limitations intrepid put on the ingame one. Just because voip is an option doesnt mean most people will use it, especially with strangers they just met. If they ban the speaking of dps meters from the game then you reduce the potential toxicity that players throw at each other when they group up and see someone isnt doing good damage. It restricts that first instinct to try and force that player to play how you want and makes you more likely to say something positive or just not bring it up.
I feel that is a better alternative than to have it unrestricted. Wow has a TERRIBLY toxic community when it comes to these sorts of things while ff14s approach has created a space that is much more welcoming. Sure it's not perfect but you cannot deny that ff14s community is better than most mmo communities in this regard.
They are essentially pointless for PvP. The only way they would even be worth the time is if they focused the PvE content around DPS. Unless that is their goal, it is pointless to have them.
FFIXV has the stance they have because they are smart enough to know it's the only card they can play. They are aware of how fast ACT gets updated to keep up with the game. The FFXIV devs also understand that the monumental effort it would take to rewrite the client to make ACTs current DPS detection method impossible is only a temporary fix. As the people working on the FFXIV plugin for ACT will find another way to detect DPS eventually. They have admitted that in the past.
Instead of going down an arms race with ACT until damage numbers are only server side and players can never see them. They chose to adopt the only sensible policy they can. Keep discussion of DPS out of game. That is really the only policy they can enforce that has the desired effect.
There will be a time when Intrepid has to admit that the only thing they can do to ever truly prevent DPS meters is remove damage numbers from the client so that players can not see them. Which would really upset the playerbase... an MMORPG with no numbers...
or they can just make it a TOS violation to tell people their performance sucks based on the meter. Which is what FFXIV did. It was that or just outright allow them. The situation is really no different for Ashes. People will use anything up to and including AI computer vision to pull the numbers into a meter in real time.
They definitely cause toxicity, there is no denying that.
Usually those metres just help with rotation pacing based on PvE combat mechanics involving dungeons and raids. There is a lot of add-ons just tell you how to play now.
I wont really bother getting into why most PvE is boring in MMORPG's for someone like myself, but I will say the most entertaining part is figuring out those boss mechanics instead of just watching some video on how to get through the different phases. PvE needs to be fun and engaging with a bit of chaos to keep players on their toes, not some hokey pokey dance you see in every MMORPG.
They definitely cause toxicity, there is no denying that.
Agreed 100%, I will also admit to being a part of that toxicity in the past.
FFXIV has taught me to call out the specific behavior that is causing low DPS. Not the players for low DPS. This may sound like you are just shifting the blame, but it is actually more helpful. Telling a black mage that he could cast xenoglossy 4 times by a certain point in a fight is much more constructive and helpful than telling him his DPS "sucks" and "get good".
FFXIV is so rigid in its rotations and so many people play alts that odds are someone in a group knows exactly how someone his playing wrong and can see it in ACT. Explaining specifics can still lead to name-calling and shit talking, but I have seen specifically telling someone what they are doing wrong be far more effective than just venting outright toxicity. It is also not against TOS to tell a machinist if they can't cast heat blast five times in during their window, they are playing the class wrong or don't have the ping required to play the class optimally.
There is also something to be said for "Blind" runs. Which is why I always, always, always skip the story in FFXIV and run straight to the end game. I don't like watching videos unless I am well behind in prog and the rest of my group has seen the video and just wants to clear.
Comments
I'll make you a deal. You don't tell me how to play the game, and I won't tell you how to play the game.
Throw in there that I reckon you need to git gud and we have a deal.
you have a raider making a long post why they like dps meter, because it is a tool that helps them like gym equipment can help you get muscle (but you can of course get muscle without tools)
Then you get the wild "chad" hater, proclaiming how good he is in the unknown part of the universe he resides in - shitting on everyone he meets without ever using meters (i'm glad he didnt add as his resume being a tictactoe champion)
Then Noaani feels the disturbance in the force and a long back and forth of logic arguments vs The Catchphrase begins
― Plato
(dont worry i know you are a god gamer
― Plato
Sports fitness has come a long way. In no small part thanks to tools.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I know, but you know how it is - there is always that guy from a pub in a small village that tells you with a beer in hand that he can get ripped in no time without any gym equipment and look like mr olympia
― Plato
I am that guy.
But I tell it to me with a beer in my hand... then I go to bed a few hours later.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Maybe while you were still Sisko, but now you're the weird freaky tentacle blob monster thing. That ain't no Sisko...
I am that guy...
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
1 VIsual : Easy solution : by beeing able to enable it or not you could simply take it off when you want to enjoy the game visuals etc ... ( so if i anderstand what you say , we also should take off the spell barres ? beceause they are on our screen and we can't fully enjoy the game ?? take off all UI at this point .... )
2 If people only ask about metrics they are not anderstanding the tool and its purpose , so the tool is not to blame but the ppl....
Your enjoyement in a MMORPG is maybe to do lifeskills stuff, or simply enjoy the countryside , but some of us actually love to improve our character and perform... what is wrong about it ? and the solution is so easy : put it so people can or not enable/show it. ---> everyone would be happy
and for those who don't want to share their infos ( dps etc ) could disable it so no one can see it.
In spirit of those concerns there was many times proposed a guild only meter as an optional guild perk.
I get that people dont want meters in the game, but they are just going to exist no matter what - it is the option on the dev side to have it as a part of the game and thus have control over who is qualified to use it and where
or just bury heads in sand and pretend that ppl dont use them (like some ffxiv folk do
― Plato
It's not really like using gym equipment. It's more like being in a math competition and saying your not cheating by using a calculator
So you can midmax ( even if a combat and a dummy is not the same it can help you anderstand and optimise your rotation etc)
So with this solution no one can ask for your dps etc ( no point you could say anything ) but you can midmax if you want to.
This is not the solution i would like but if they don't want dps meters this could be a side solution for those who need those numbers
The downside of this is that a game like Ashes is going to have classes that affect how well you perform in combat - meaning that this training dummy would need to be able to work with a full group, not just one player.
Since it would need to work on a full group in order to do what it is intended to do, that means if you want to know how someone else performs, you simply need to take them along with you to have a go on that dummy.
To me, this is keeping any perceived negative aspects of a guild based combat tracker (only tracks combat of players in your group or raid that are also in your guild), but offers up virtually none of the benefits.
On the other hand, if Intrepid make the bard class not actually function as a support at all, something like this could work - but that just leaves issues with bards being worthless.
Comparing meters to using calculator in math competition is completely wrong.
Minmaxing builds is often done outside of the game in spreadsheets to get the theory of it with some data and then is backed up by a custom simulation software that gets the theorycrafters performances of the builds in various situations.
All of that is done without the game running - so what do the meters actually do? They tell you what happened, what you've taken damage from what spells were not kicked etc. You can just setup screen capture and then go through the video to see what happened - which is the same thing that meters do, but in easily readable format
Not to mention that calculator in math competition computes instead of you and meters cannot control your char in any capacity (btw some math competitions allow calculator, because math is more than solving recited equation from teacher and require actual problem solving skills to extract equations from text)
― Plato
Once you hit high level math (most secondary, all tertiary), calculators in exams are expected - though the institution you are taking the exam through will likely have a list of acceptable models. At this level, knowing how to multiply is not the point - you are being tested on your ability to work out how to solve the problem.
On the other hand, people that are still struggling with basic math can't use a calculator in an exam - because that defeats the purpose.
Likewise with combat trackers, people that are playing the game at a basic level may look at it as cheating. However, those of us playing MMO's at the top end know better - the tracker is just a tool.
You don't use a combat tracker to assist you with the basics of a games combat - people that try to do this are the kind of people that complain about the space they take up on their screen, or that they spend all their time looking at the tracker and not the game, or any number of other inane things that just highlight how little the person actually knows about MMO's at the top end in relation to how much they think they know about MMO's at the top end.
Make dps tracking an active ability a player must devote all of their characters functions to in order to use it. Meaning you have a player or players outside of the combat to track the dps done by the team.
Putting the knowledge into one players hands and allowing them to determine what is given out to the party could be the best way to implement this without it creating an extremely toxic environment. Only the most dedicated would bother to use it and they might only use it occasionally. It gives players the option without making it so free that it becomes mandatory for any group.
But don't worry - even if it was possible that meters wouldn't exist then you'd still have some player power ranking even if it is even the ilvl of your gear.
Also I hope you don't mean by a toxic environment the refusal to bring players that are not geared for the content.
And if you fear for being kicked mid run for being bad then i'd guess you were playing mmo's where replacing a player is quick and easy
― Plato
While this is a novel idea, it wouldn't work.
Any attempt at adding a combat tracker to Ashes needs to be done in an attempt to make it what is used rather than third party trackers.
This means any major hurdles (such as dedicating an entire player to it) simply won't convince people to use the in game tracker vs a third party one.
This is why the guild suggestion is still the best idea I am aware of. There are limits to it - you can't track combat of any player not in your guild.
When this is properly considered, it kills off every perceived issue I have seen directed at combat trackers, but still leaves the functionality in tact to ensure it is used instead of third party trackers.
Yeah a guild only tracker would be another way to do it. Basically you are signing up to join a guild and have a lower chance of encountering a player attempting to bash you over the head with your dps ranking since they will more often than not know you better.
― Plato
Well i like ff14's approach. Go for it, use those 3rd party addons and as long as it doesnt have a direct impact they dont care to enforce ToS. But if you mention dps in-game your ass is grass.
I have used a combat tracker with a YouTube video of game play of Ashes. There is no scope left at all for any MMO to assume there will not be combat trackers.
The days of that being a developer decision are over.
Now sure, it maay well be that Intrepid ow FFXIV and ban people that talk about it.
However, since most group chat will be VoIP, there really isn't anything they can do about that.
So, Intrepid are currently saying they are not allowing a thing they can't even detect without breaking privacy laws, and are leaving players free to talk a out it all they want in one of the two communication methods in game - let alone Discord or other out of game communication channels.
That just seems both stupid and arbitrary to me - when instead they could add in a combat tracker and have a measure of control over it themselves.
Like, you can't objectively look at how it is going to go down and say that it is a better plan than Intrepid doing it in house and having it as a guild only system.
I feel that is a better alternative than to have it unrestricted. Wow has a TERRIBLY toxic community when it comes to these sorts of things while ff14s approach has created a space that is much more welcoming. Sure it's not perfect but you cannot deny that ff14s community is better than most mmo communities in this regard.
Instead of going down an arms race with ACT until damage numbers are only server side and players can never see them. They chose to adopt the only sensible policy they can. Keep discussion of DPS out of game. That is really the only policy they can enforce that has the desired effect.
There will be a time when Intrepid has to admit that the only thing they can do to ever truly prevent DPS meters is remove damage numbers from the client so that players can not see them. Which would really upset the playerbase... an MMORPG with no numbers...
or they can just make it a TOS violation to tell people their performance sucks based on the meter. Which is what FFXIV did. It was that or just outright allow them. The situation is really no different for Ashes. People will use anything up to and including AI computer vision to pull the numbers into a meter in real time.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Usually those metres just help with rotation pacing based on PvE combat mechanics involving dungeons and raids. There is a lot of add-ons just tell you how to play now.
I wont really bother getting into why most PvE is boring in MMORPG's for someone like myself, but I will say the most entertaining part is figuring out those boss mechanics instead of just watching some video on how to get through the different phases. PvE needs to be fun and engaging with a bit of chaos to keep players on their toes, not some hokey pokey dance you see in every MMORPG.
Agreed 100%, I will also admit to being a part of that toxicity in the past.
FFXIV has taught me to call out the specific behavior that is causing low DPS. Not the players for low DPS. This may sound like you are just shifting the blame, but it is actually more helpful. Telling a black mage that he could cast xenoglossy 4 times by a certain point in a fight is much more constructive and helpful than telling him his DPS "sucks" and "get good".
FFXIV is so rigid in its rotations and so many people play alts that odds are someone in a group knows exactly how someone his playing wrong and can see it in ACT. Explaining specifics can still lead to name-calling and shit talking, but I have seen specifically telling someone what they are doing wrong be far more effective than just venting outright toxicity. It is also not against TOS to tell a machinist if they can't cast heat blast five times in during their window, they are playing the class wrong or don't have the ping required to play the class optimally.
There is also something to be said for "Blind" runs. Which is why I always, always, always skip the story in FFXIV and run straight to the end game. I don't like watching videos unless I am well behind in prog and the rest of my group has seen the video and just wants to clear.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.