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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Yeah, I already agreed that Justvine was right about how damaging broken promises would be for intrepid. I am not a fan of broken promises myself. My hot take thread was never expected to see anything actually actionable happen. I just thought my take might be worth discussion.
I think you still might miss some of the sentiment of my take. Yes, technically 5% is not "no one". (I do think 5% is an overly optimistic estimation for people who would like Niküa, but we can role with it.)
Anyway, they could let 5% of players down with no Niküa, but how many people would be lifted up if they replaced Niküa with a race type that would excite 15-25% of the player base? What if we were talking about like a heavenly opposite to Tulnar? Pretending that Tulnar are Thiefling and Aasimar were on the table in this analogy? I am pretty sure the prospects of a very customizable angelic race would get more than 5% of players excited. It doesn't have to be that It could be undead, vampires, catpeople or any other manner of popular races that seem to do well in every MMORPG they are in. The point is they could do better, but for weird duality there is two of each race and some of them are not gonna do so well.
edit:
Anyway, I just wrote all this out only to see that you posted and agree... XD In which case cheers.
Only leaving this response in case some lurker feels the same way you do and wanted a full response from me.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
11% would be nice.
https://www.strawpoll.me/20697226/r
https://www.strawpoll.me/20710068/r
Now I know we are never going to have good data. I just searched polls and linked the first two I found. Not exactly an in-depth meta study of the subject, but it shows some of the sentiments I see with Ashes races. Oddly, lacking the simping for Tulnar that is ever present. I wish we had a poll with thousands of responses.
I have nothing against some of these races. If I wanted to be racists against a fantasy race, I would just make fun of the Tulnar or the lalafell(FFXIV). One is never alone in their dislike for these races.
5% is that small when a handful of races are pushing like: 35-30% and the rest are all 5% or lower.
Dünir could be greater than 40% realistically if they get the proportions right.
If they had a system in place where making a new race was not that bad because it did not involve an aesthetic variant for every armor/gender and building in the game. Then I would be on team "put D&D PHB and all the supplements in the game.".
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Lets discuss this shall we.
Ashes of creation has a development team. In that team people have different roles and specialities. You have gaphical designers, 3d artists, people that build up the terrain, and programmers that put code and assets together.
So what needs to be done with a race
First of all we need tocode the racials.
We need to make assets that are used in nodes and in gear.
All other work needs to be done regardless of what or how many races are in the game. While you may think "all that art work is going to take a tremendous amount of extra time
But thats most likely not the case. A lot of what you will see in the node, will actually be templated. Animals, Food, Water, common building materials, they all share with each race. So whats left is the furniture and the houses.
Repetiveness kills a game
We've seen this as a perfect example in New world. The game is boring. Everything is repeated, or feels repeated time and time again. There is to little diversity, and it makes the game boring and unfun. In order to not feel repetetive, you need to have randomizers and a lot of different assets. If we for an arbitrary number say you need 90 of each type of asset to avoid "boredom" then each race will have 10 of them. The amount of assets still need to be made, there is actually little to no extra time in having x amount of races at LAUNCH of the game.
On Expansions on the other hand you have a lot more work. you will need to add a lot of extra assets, and then implement them beeing used. This is more work then having the additional race at the start
"We won't see or nobody will play this race" Some races and class combinations will be more rare then others. to claim they will be non existant is absurd. If "only 3%" of the player base is going to play it, thats still 300 people concurrent on every server. People will definatly rig and trigger, or band up special race orientated nodes. Ashes is a pvp and community based game. If a community decides, were going to play Nikua, and were going to kill every non nikua in the node zoi to avoid them from contributing xp, you will get a nikua node.
Some server(s) will be known for harboring particular races, people will migrate to it if they want to live in their racial structures.
Once we got a little more info about them and I saw how more races looked, their gear, architecture, and so on I fell in love with the Ren'Kai. I am all about them now. I might have an Empyrean alt but that will probably be a distant second fiddle.
I might make a Nikua. It depends on what their benefits are and how impactful those are. WoW has been cited in this thread, and I know that a lot of people pick their race in that game based on what bonuses they get.
You have said nothing new or interesting. You just reworded what other people have already said. The only difference is you "tried" to explain how development job roles work, as if freeing up all the time those roles have to work on Niküa would not allow the devs to work on the other races more, or just come up with races people actually like instead. Which is certainly not true. They have a team size and a time budget. Every minute spent working on Niküa is a little less time they could spend on anything else within their role. It is not like they have a team that only works on Niküa, and I am asking to put them out of a job.
300 people will not be enough to "band up" and get a node. That is just wishful thinking. I also already made this point myself. When I said that the only way we would see a Niküa node is if there is a massive effort to do it for the meme.
@Atama
Again, I think it is utterly shitty that people only thinking about playing Niküa for stats. To me, that is a failed race. It could have been any number of fantasy things people do like. Instead, it's: "well I hate the way my character looks in game, but I love the way he sims on this spreadsheet!".
I want everything about Ashes to be good. I hope you guys are seeing that.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
You can't just not read the whole thread and decide I am presumptuous. No one is denying that some races are going to be 5% or lower in population.
Everything you just said has been addressed in the thread.
Except that the Nikua "might" be integral to the story. I will address that now:
Not even Intrepid cares about the story if it means they can make a better game by discarding parts of the lore.
I don't think I actually said: "I don't like Nikua". You decided that was my position for me.(you are wrong)
I have been saying not many people going to play it. Which even the fans of the race don't question. They say things like: "I like playing the underdog...".
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
If a race is supposed to look beautiful then they should be actually good to look at - especially the females
If a race is supposed to be unorthodox or straight up ugly, then it should at least look badass in some form
Like this was totally nailed down back in 2003 by the original wow dev team, you had some races that were looking really good (considering the standards back then) and if a race like tauren or undead were per say ugly, they had a certain coolness to them - like the undead guitar dance or just the intimidating huge look of the tauren - even the dwarfs had that drunkard type appearance
What I want is for the races to have character - otherwise it will be just a bland character creation option that is chosen by people that are desperate to stand out at all costs
― Plato
Moreover, popularity is a dynamic thing subject to the whims of the community. Depending on how lore develops as the game progresses, the distribution of player race selection might change after launch. We also need to consider that racial popularity can be influenced by dev decisions.
If over time a dwindling number of players play one or two of the races, this presents a content opportunity for the devs to refresh player interest in those races.
-If the community finds a race boring or shallow (i.e. a lore based problem), an expansion type content drop focused on an unpopular race could likely refresh interest. Maybe adding a home city, destroying a home city, conflict with another race, establishment of some arch nemesis type of enemy for the race, magical portal opens in that race's home city with significant impacts on the race and their civilization, etc.
-If aesthetics are a problem for a given race and that's a driving factor in selection, that's more difficult to address, but not impossible. Perhaps that race or races suffers a calamitous world-wide event, or sickness that results in physical mutations that change them aesthetically to basically another race to solve the issue. They could be minor aesthetic changes, or significant, whichever is needed. Such a thing could open huge lore possibilities, as well as potential soft conflict with other races resulting from the mutations and associated event.
To summarize what I'm contending above, the fluctuating racial distribution of players is a soft conflict/friction factor which can drive developer content creation and existing players rerolling an alt as another race. While we can't be sure whether the devs. would pursue content development in this manner, if you remove any races that are unpopular, you essentially remove this possibility entirely. Keeping the 9 races discussed thus far, even if it means less developed racial backgrounds for each initially, builds a better foundation for the game going forward in my opinion.
The races as they stand seem fine. If I had my druthers I'd have race/subrace selection determine starting location - as in LOTRO. But that's also a high-fantasy setting with a very established (i.e. rigid) lore driving where races may appear. That doesn't appear to be the case in Ashes. If the player distribution is wonky they may adjust they may not. As long as Dünir are in, I'm good.
I am curious as to how the Ashes lore will drive additional races showing up in DLCs...
But with racial skins it might not matter how a character looks. We know a Nikua won't look any different from a Dunir or a Vek if you put the Frost racial skin on them. So that's one thing to consider; in this game the appearance of race might not always matter.
People pick races for different reasons. Some do it for stats, some do it for the lore, some do it for appearance, some just want an alt of every race to experience playing with different kinds of characters. I do agree that if people very rarely make a Nikua because of their looks, then that's a very clear and objective sign that Intrepid screwed up in designing the race. They might still create a Nikua for the other reasons mentioned but that doesn't mean it's not a problem.
One other thing I'll mention that might make this an even bigger issue than similar MMORPGs, is that the developers have put an emphasis on gear adapting in style depending on the character's race. That leather apron on a Dunir might become a grass skirt on a Nikua. (Totally pulled that example out of my rear end but I think that's not far from how they're doing it.) They want it set up so that your gear will identify your race as much as your build, facial features, skin color, and so on. (Again, ignoring skins and costumes that might override those aesthetics to a degree.) So because of that, if a race like the Nikua have an unpopular appearance it might have even more of an impact on how often players choose that race than it might in another game, which makes your concerns even more valid.
You are correct. Not trying to shame anyone.
Let me put it this way. Classes and Races are some of the first things people look at when they are looking at an MMORPG. They are ads for the game in a sense. "Come be this cool looking thing!" should be the selling point for any race. People often look to the aesthetics of classes and races first.
@Noaani @bloodprophet
I agree that many people pick their race for the abilities. I feel this is actually a problem that should be addressed better by MMORPGs in the future. Any MMORPG where race does not matter kind of has it right IMO.
I think a better system would be to have "backgrounds" like in 5th edition D&D replace the stats/abilities part of races. The reason is that you could still have the build diversity of a class/race system without being locked into playing something if you don't like the way it looks. This is the type of system that would have prevented WOWs faction imbalance. If instead of the orc having its OP racials, anyone could pick the "berserker" background that has the same racials as the orc. We would see people actually picking the race they want aesthetically.
I have always been a strong supporter of player agency. As much as it makes realistic sense to have differences between races. It also stands to reason that an orc could be raised in the same environment as a gnome and never end up being like an orc, but end up more like a gnome. This only really falls apart when you have like a race with wings for some reason. Obviously, an orc raised by Aarakocra would never be able to fly. The solution for this is easy, don't let players play races that have wings and can fly. Have the backgrounds(racials) be traits that any humanoid race could actually obtain.
I know all of this last bit is a bit off-topic, but I think it illustrates my point. If I had to distill my sentiment in this whole thread down to one sentence, it would be this:
"Every race should be something that is at least tempting on its aesthetics alone to a good portion of the playerbase.". I don't think we are in that situation right now.
I don't expect my hot take to magically solve the problem. I just think we are seeing the same limited and shitty design decisions over and over. I like Mortal Online 2, but I hate every single race in that game, Aesthetically. To the point that you might as well not have an appearance. The only saving grace is that the armor looks good, and you can just cover your character with armor and pretend that the cursed form underneath it is not there. I think we might see a lot of Nikua permanently in full cosmetic costumes for that same reason. The stats are good, ill just use this one cosmetic that makes everything look good, and that will be my appearance until the end of time. XD
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
I found it odd that I had to pick between two types of orc. I'm all for the roleplay aspect of any game but there is a limit I think before it becomes wasted time. Everything they have changed, improved on, and implemented in the last 2 years has my complete approval so when it comes to things like this, it's not really THAT concerning. Intrepid has earned my trust and I do think we will get some quality lore surrounding each race. If not........damn what a waste.
Also, statistics about racial choices and such prior to the launch are just silly. People will come and go...hell, even guilds have formed and disbanded in Alpha 1 haha.
I get what you are saying, but that's just the reality of things for all races and for many people, and it doesn't reflect on the race itself necessarily.
The Dünir is a well known entity to most people, that they've grown to love through various games and fantasy IPs. I love the Dünir myself because of those other IPs, not because Intrepids version is new and unique, but because they (now) align more closely to those other IPs. The Niküa is a completely new take on dwarfs that I haven't seen before elsewhere than in Ashes. Of course early adoption is going to be low, because they in many ways are in stark contrast to the stereotypical dwarves.
I think that is amazing and worth exploring, and I want to see much more of them in the game and learn the lore and such. I almost wish they'll be given OP racial abilities so 50% or more players will pick them, just to see people's reaction
They have my trust when it comes to the overall game design. I am even optimistic the battle system will end up great.
There are just little things like this that seem so short-sighted. I don't think the game is going to be bad if it's worst case scenario and only like less than 1% of the server plays Nikua.
FFXIV released a new race in Shadowbringers that has less than 1% of people play it. People are still regarding Shadowbringers as one of the best MMOS of all time. I think at this point, the FFXIV devs would tell you the new race is failure if cornered.
I think Ashes will still be great even if some races are not a success. FFXIV literally already has that problem, and I think it's a successful MMORPG.
@Nerror
I love the hopes and dreams you have for the Nikua. It would in fact be great to see them succeed. Me being wrong about all of this is really the best case scenario.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
A game that did this would remove the value of a players choice as a race. It turns it in to a completely cosmetic choice. Race may as well be a shop cosmetic.
If a game only has cosmetics as racial effects, why even have races? Why not just give players all options to make what ever they want?
You read the part where I offered up 5E style backgrounds as a replacement for this choice? I don't want to see interesting combinations and choices go away in RPGs, I just don't think they should really be tied to aesthetics anymore. It's antiquated and oppressive.
At this point, I think races are becoming purely cosmetic more and more in RPGs, and that is a good thing. It just gives the player more agency on what they look like. It's not fun to be forced to look like something you hate to make a play style you like viable.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
An Orc growing up with Dwarves is still an Orc. Just as a kitten growing up with puppies is still a cat.
"It's antiquated and oppressive."
Not yet, backgrounds are your third selection. You pick Race, Class, Background at character creation. Unrelated to why I think races make more sense as cosmetics in MMORPGs. (Which is not how I thought of my take, but Noaani described it as such, and I can't disagree).
No, Wizards have been going down this path of changing races because they think people are bringing real world stereotypes and racism into D&D. Which I think is absurd, but there has been a whole trend of being overly politically correct with D&D ever since it became mainstream to play D&D. That is different from why I don't think race should matter in MMORPGs from an appearance standpoint.
For me, I am just Vain... Like if the game has shit GFX like WOW, Darkfall, or EQ2 then my brain just shuts the vanity off, and I don't give a fuck. I would play an MMO with Atari graphics if the systems were good and rewarding. The second the game starts to look good, I want more of a say in how I look. Which is why I made that thread comparing every character generator I could get my hands on. When the character generator is good, I really like it. When the game lets me mix and match and dye gear, I really like that too. I don't like being locked out of appearance options for the sake of gameplay mechanics. It is a reduction in player agency.
For D&D, I care less about these points. You can imagine a race to be as cool or dumb looking as you like. When the DM describes a Drows face, you might imagine the shitfaces of dark elves from Elder Scrolls, while I imagine the faces from Lineage 2.
I also think you are thinking about the raised by a different race thing wrong. An orc raised by gnomes might be forced to study all day instead of whatever chad shit orcs do to make them so ripped. It may be a struggle for an orc to have the mind of a gnome, but we are not talking about a normal random ork. We are talking about one who ultimately becomes a hero of some kind. Any character a player makes is somewhat of a fringe case already. Non player character orcs might just end up weak and dumb if raised by gnomes. Player characters rise to the challenge, eventually going toe to toe with nearly anything with stats. I am not saying the players are giga powerful, but they are at least a fringe case.
I have actually seen cats that behave like dogs because they did not spend much time around other cats and don't know any better.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/47780/racial-benefits-speculation-and-ideas-welcome#latest
Sorry to put you all through it again. Only click that link if you're bored and have time to kill!
It's weird man. I don't consider myself to be very progressive when it comes to MMORPGs. If you told me there was a way, I could travel back in time and play EQ1 from launch until it fell from favor, or I could travel forward in time and start playing Ashes now. I think I would pick EQ1. I really do like old school MMORPGs.
I like the grit and brutality. Praying I can get my corpse back. Losing hours to just navigating the world. Not knowing anything about the world.
Sometimes, I think there are innovations that are hard to argue against forever. Initially, I was hostile to the idea of transmog/glam. I thought it was stupid, you could just wear what you want. My instant instinct was to transmog my gear in PvP to look worse than it is. If this ever worked for anyone, it was like a day in MMO history. Now it's like... "Why is WOW stuck in the Stone Age with no dye?" Guildwars 1 had that shit in the early 2000s. I get annoyed in FFXIV that I can only have so many outfits... Like, I see an axe and want to dye and mix gear to match it. Make something fresh that stands out.
Cosmetics won. There are plenty of hold outs other there, but the idea of changing the appearance of your gear won. It may be standard now. Having the races be cosmetic is the next innovation that is coming to RPGs.
I did read a bit of your post, you were not kidding. It's a long one. I have to say, though. All of that could be done with backgrounds. Maybe you choose a combat background and a non-combat background. It really is not hard to split mechanics and appearance. I am pretty over the old-school idea that appearance and mechanics should be married. I think the next big MMORPG will be one that follows that philosophy, or already is.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
But with racial skins it might not matter how a character looks. We know a Nikua won't look any different from a Dunir or a Vek if you put the Frost racial skin on them. So that's one thing to consider; in this game the appearance of race might not always matter.
People pick races for different reasons. Some do it for stats, some do it for the lore, some do it for appearance, some just want an alt of every race to experience playing with different kinds of characters. I do agree that if people very rarely make a Nikua because of their looks, then that's a very clear and objective sign that Intrepid screwed up in designing the race. They might still create a Nikua for the other reasons mentioned but that doesn't mean it's not a problem.
One other thing I'll mention that might make this an even bigger issue than similar MMORPGs, is that the developers have put an emphasis on gear adapting in style depending on the character's race. That leather apron on a Dunir might become a grass skirt on a Nikua. (Totally pulled that example out of my rear end but I think that's not far from how they're doing it.) They want it set up so that your gear will identify your race as much as your build, facial features, skin color, and so on. (Again, ignoring skins and costumes that might override those aesthetics to a degree.) So because of that, if a race like the Nikua have an unpopular appearance it might have even more of an impact on how often players choose that race than it might in another game, which makes your concerns even more valid.[/quote]
I missed this early, and there is a lot of great stuff I did not want to skip over. I have not really considered where racial skins fit into this whole discussion until just now.
I also don't know that racial skins will be sold again? I thought that was a kickstarter thing?
I keep forgetting about racial skins. Mostly because I don't value them at all personally. The idea of having one constant, rigid appearance is not something I want to do, but you are right. If the choice is something with good stats that I hate or good stats and an awesome appearance. I might have to go with the racial skins.
I think you are right about the leather vs grass. That is exactly how I imagine it. This sort of stuff has a hidden benefit. If this is by design, then it's a giga brain move.
What if the races have a locked appearance to motivate cosmetic sales?
On one had that is good for sales, but on the other hand it's some EA games tier shit if done on purpose. This would be a terrible look if Nikua had excellent racials.
I want to be very clear that I am not accusing Intrepid of anything here. I am just asking because it comes to mind.
Still covering the race, so I don't have to go into battle with a fire dragon, might be something I would do if my character was wearing grass armor. Even if it's just cosmetic.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
I agree that everyone wants ("needs"?) to have an individual appearance to help with their own in-game identity, and that is a very important aspect of the game engagement. For me the problem comes when players are increasingly trying to stand out from the crowd with more and more bright / garish skins, which is clearly compensating for a level of RL insecurity! I'm not a fan of extreme customization (neon fairy wings, etc.) but so long as every day doesn't look like a mardi-gras / fancy dress festival I think I'll be okay. Looking at the costume design that has gone into Wheel of Time there are definitely benefits to having racial/cultural clothing themes, but for Ashes that horse bolted from the stable early in development. I'm hoping that guild clothing/tabards might help compensate by giving uniform based identity.
I agree, sometimes it can go too far. I try to address those issues as they come up. We got this Santa outfit in the shop this month. I have nothing against Santa personally. In fact he has been pretty good to me over the years. XD I just don't think every MMORPG should import that real world peice of culture. In fact, I think it's annoying that even in these fantasy worlds you can't escape Christmas.
I address that issue on its own as I would the garish skins or the neon fairy wings... or any wings period. I am sure Tulnar will have wings and I will think it's stupid when it happens. All I can really do is speak out against it, though. The sales are already made.
I think we are going to see some very interesting debates down the line when it comes to cosmetics. What if racial skins are widely available? If they are, what is the point of not having a race change? You can change your sub-class and your appearance... At that point, we are only restricting the racials.
I also think we are going to see a slippery slope with the cosmetics as they notice what sales and what does not sell. What happens when more skin on a cosmetic equals better money? Neon wings sale like hot cakes at 40$? I don't want that, but it could happen.
I hate to sound negative, but even if I was fully on team visual progression. I don't know how optimistic I would be.
Tabards would be cool, though. So long as I like the one my guild comes up with.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.