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About mandatory PvP.

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  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    A general reminder of why games might limit PvP to 'at X level'.

    1. It forces people who enjoy 'griefing' others to actually level that high every time they make a 'Griefing Alt'.
    2. It prevents players that understand how to exploit mechanics or leverage skills at lower levels from doing so before other players necessarily have the skills or understanding to counter.
    3. It prevents the phase of the game where many people are looking for allies and friends, from becoming too unpredictable.

    I mention this simply to remind that it is sometimes not 'I am higher level than you so I can kill you'. It is 'you don't know how to counter this/don't understand what I'm doing yet/don't have tools for managing this problem.

    Any changes to the system that alters Corruption penalties in either direction, particularly if one can hide the connection between one's Alt and Main, will need to factor for this.

    As someone who has made many level 19-39 twinks in WoW I kind of get where you're coming from, but if the corruption system is applied at all levels it will still be prevented. And on top of that, its much easier to go and destroy a toxic twink character with a main than it is to just fight somebody elses geared main. And I can also say that twinked character platers mostly only want to fight other twinked character players. It less "I am dominating" and more "I enjoy this more limited skillset" or "Thank god there arent mounts in this level bracket" and even "I want to duel higher level players with this low level one just because". Its mostly for fun, not malice. Although there are obviously some toxic ones. As an example, in WoW I had a level 19 fully twinked gnome rogue that I would take to hillsbrad foothills and either challenge level 28+ horde, or wait for them to try to "gank" me. What result was usually some pretty even fights, it was just funny to both parties involved because I was just a level 19. Made a name for myself and even befriended quite a few enemy players that way.
    All of that being said, this isn't as big of a concern as you believe it to be.

    All of the datasets I have indicate that this is a serious issue.

    Multiple games have needed to explicitly take action against it.

    I'm glad that your experience has been different from the players of those games. WoW really is an interesting game to use for an example.

    What datasets do you have? I am genuinely curious.

    Yes I realize many games have dealt with this sort of problem in their own ways but I feel that corruption is ashes of creations way of dealing with this problem.

    It was indeed and awesome experience, but to extend an olive branch I will give you an interesting example of the toxic side. And that was the dreaded level 10 night elf rogue twink! If you acquired the appropriate gear, your character would have over 100% dodge rating making you untouchable even to level 60 players! You werent exactly able to kill anyone else, but once you picked up the flag in capture the flag, it was a simple as running it back unhindered to your base to either capture it, or simply wait until the other carrier died, all while being swarmed by the enemy team. Ironically you arent killing anyone in this way but it was pure trolling to do this. We strongly denounced this sort of playing style in the twinking community.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    As someone who has made many level 19-39 twinks in WoW I kind of get where you're coming from, but if the corruption system is applied at all levels it will still be prevented.
    And on top of that, its much easier to go and destroy a toxic twink character with a main than it is to just fight somebody elses geared main. And I can also say that twinked character platers mostly only want to fight other twinked character players. It less "I am dominating" and more "I enjoy this more limited skillset" or "Thank god there arent mounts in this level bracket" and even "I want to duel higher level players with this low level one just because". Its mostly for fun, not malice. Although there are obviously some toxic ones. As an example, in WoW I had a level 19 fully twinked gnome rogue that I would take to hillsbrad foothills and either challenge level 28+ horde, or wait for them to try to "gank" me. What result was usually some pretty even fights, it was just funny to both parties involved because I was just a level 19.
    Made a name for myself and even befriended quite a few enemy players that way.
    All of that being said, this isn't as big of a concern as you believe it to be.

    followed by...
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Lucky you! I have been held at gunpoint 4 times, and have dealt with several instances of people attempting to rob me. I guess we live in different worlds seeing as all of my occurrences didn't happen in any of the places you mentioned either.

    Bruh...

    Yes? is there some correlation here?
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 17
    Otr wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Otr wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    There are just as many people complaining that Corruption is too harsh as there are people complaining that Corruption is insufficient.
    Why not make the corruption factor decrease gradually on the map, the further you are from developed areas?
    That means killing near cities would be harshly punished by corruption and being deep in the wilderness would be risky for the less prepared.
    Because there are plenty of PvE-only folk and PvP-sometimes folk who want to explore the world without encountering non-consensual PvP. So, the penalties for non-consensual PvP will be consistent across the world.
    - PvE players should stay where is safe for them and watch YouTube videos.
    - PvP-sometimes folk should then only sometime venture into the more dangerous areas. They will enjoy the adventure when they are ready.
    PvP folk should be penalized when they kill Non-Combatants. Regardless of where they are.
    And they will be.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dolyem wrote: »
    A timid player is simply that. A player with a timid personality who is unsure of themselves and their decisions, usually based on fear of the outcome of their decisions. Corruption isnt there to prevent unwanted activities being forced onto other players, it is simply there to limit how often it occurs.
    By your definition, timid player is not a thing.
    Corruption is designed to deter non-consensual PvP such that it is a rare occurence.
  • RamirezRamirez Member
    edited June 18
    Marpo wrote: »
    We've reached a certain age where we just want to sit in our chairs and enjoy a good game, just stay in the predictable zone of bots and AI.

    Just like me, there are many players who hate PvP, and who don't want 1% of it. I hope the kind of frustrations we're going to have are just not being able to kill a very difficult boss. I hope PvP combats in Caravans, World PvP and Nodes for example, don't take us away from AoC.

    Developers, I'm really excited about what's being presented. It's all very beautiful! I'm super excited for the next tests and the upcoming release!

    Then you Will get another new world , where they killed the pvp, then the game didn t make sence because was build around PvP and territory conquest...
  • OtrOtr Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    A timid player is simply that. A player with a timid personality who is unsure of themselves and their decisions, usually based on fear of the outcome of their decisions. Corruption isnt there to prevent unwanted activities being forced onto other players, it is simply there to limit how often it occurs.
    By your definition, timid player is not a thing.
    Corruption is designed to deter non-consensual PvP such that it is a rare occurence.
    That's just your wish and hope that it will be rare. :smile:
    Guilds can organize themselves and take turn on killing you.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 18
    It's what Steven states the design is.
    Guilds coulld try that. If it's common... expect the devs to adjust the Corruption penalty accordingly to deter that.
  • IronhopeIronhope Member
    Adventure should be mandatory in an adventure game (an rpg).


  • OtrOtr Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    It's what Steven states the design is.
    Guilds coulld try that. If it's common... expect the devs to adjust the Corruption penalty accordingly to deter that.
    How much can they increase the corruption penalty?
    Even the bounty hunters might avoid such areas, where a corrupt player is defended by a team ready to fight.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    We shall see.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Actually agree there should be a base level where you can't pvp like pvp activates starting at lvl 10 or something.
    Otr wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    A timid player is simply that. A player with a timid personality who is unsure of themselves and their decisions, usually based on fear of the outcome of their decisions. Corruption isnt there to prevent unwanted activities being forced onto other players, it is simply there to limit how often it occurs.
    By your definition, timid player is not a thing.
    Corruption is designed to deter non-consensual PvP such that it is a rare occurence.
    That's just your wish and hope that it will be rare. :smile:
    Guilds can organize themselves and take turn on killing you.

    As much of a fair point that is you are thinking an a extreme. First off if a guild attacks you and kills you turning red. You can attack them for free unless they want to gain more corruption to the point they eventually drop gear. By them attacking you BH will show up, or you can actually just say there is a group of reds with high corruption and everyone will come because they want their gear.

    As well you would have to piss a guild off if that many of their members come out to do that even knowing the risk if they keep killing you. What is more likely and if you are a solo player with no guild they can't dec you so they are at a loss except for all gaining corruption.

    This isn't a likely scenario as a hardcore pvper myself that kills people for no reason. I won't just gain corruption without a clear reason just because some guildy has a issue with a random. If that random is weak and a low level they would be on their own.
  • OtrOtr Member
    edited June 18
    @Mag7spy I checked the wiki and I see that I was not aware that (as you said)
    If a non-combatant attacks a corrupt player, the non-combatant will not flag as a combatant.[20]
    Still if a PvE player will want to venture into the territory of an unfriendly guild, he might die once and loose some resources.
    Now, what I would like to know is if the corrupt player can have an agreement with a friendly bounty hunter, to let himself killed and get rid of corruption fast.
  • insomniainsomnia Member
    I don't care for PvP. But i know it's part of the game, and i don't expect them to change it. I also think Steven has said, it won't be changed. As it's part of the game.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Otr wrote: »
    @Mag7spy I checked the wiki and I see that I was not aware that (as you said)
    If a non-combatant attacks a corrupt player, the non-combatant will not flag as a combatant.[20]
    Still if a PvE player will want to venture into the territory of an unfriendly guild, he might die once and loose some resources.
    Now, what I would like to know is if the corrupt player can have an agreement with a friendly bounty hunter, to let himself killed and get rid of corruption fast.

    BH system is a fair point, i think there is a lot of ways you exploit it. If I'm a BH i don't want to kill them, i want my friends to kill them and letting them know where he is so he drops full gear :). Though same can be said you use it to advert your own loses by having your friend pk you until your corruption is gone. This can be a whole thread in itself tbh.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Counter to that might be if multiple people can mark a bounty and gear is shared some how. Just needs enough risk and deterrent so people can't use an escape goat.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Otr wrote: »
    @Mag7spy I checked the wiki and I see that I was not aware that (as you said)
    If a non-combatant attacks a corrupt player, the non-combatant will not flag as a combatant.[20]
    Still if a PvE player will want to venture into the territory of an unfriendly guild, he might die once and loose some resources.
    Now, what I would like to know is if the corrupt player can have an agreement with a friendly bounty hunter, to let himself killed and get rid of corruption fast.
    Getting rid of Corruption "fast" does not instantly remove the accrued death penalties.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    A timid player is simply that. A player with a timid personality who is unsure of themselves and their decisions, usually based on fear of the outcome of their decisions. Corruption isnt there to prevent unwanted activities being forced onto other players, it is simply there to limit how often it occurs.
    By your definition, timid player is not a thing.
    Corruption is designed to deter non-consensual PvP such that it is a rare occurence.

    Seeking to limit the amount of "non-consensual" pvp via the corruption system is what I have seen as the teams goal. Not to prevent or deter it. Otherwise why are they even putting in mechanics that are directly dependent on corrupted players being a thing?
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 22
    Steven specifically states the goal is to deter ganking but not completely prevent it.

    “ You're not going to see griefing in the game very often; and that's because of our flagging system. The Corruption mechanics are based around disincentivizing a griefer or PKer but still offering the opportunity, should the occasion arise, where the benefits outweigh the risk, you have the ability to do so. If you gain Corruption, which is killing a Non-Combatant - a player who is not fighting back, basically - if you gain that Corruption, your world has changed. It is not going to be a very beneficial place to be and you have the potential of losing your gear. Your combat efficacy decreases based on the amount of Corruption you accrue.”
    —-Steven
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    sounds right to me, it is as casual friend as you can make it btw.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Steven specifically states the goal is to deter ganking but not completely prevent it.

    “ You're not going to see griefing in the game very often; and that's because our flagging system. The corruption mechanics are based around disincentivizing a griefer or PKer but still offering the opportunity, should the occasion arise, where the benefits outweigh the risk, you have the ability to do so. If you gain corruption, which is killing a non-combatant - a player who is not fighting back basically - if you gain that corruption, your world has changed. It is not going to be a very beneficial place to be and you have the potential of losing your gear. Your combat efficacy decreases based on the amount of corruption you accrue.”
    —-Steven

    I feel like honestly we are both sort of arguing semantics. I see it as a limiter. You see it as a deterrent... I am sitting here thinking to myself its sort of the same thing. Either argument is still exactly what Steven is saying. Corruption keeps ganking in check but it doesn't get rid of it entirely.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 22
    Um. Yes. Deter does not mean the same thing as prevent.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Deter is how it should be, its not a PvE game o.O
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    Certainly a hotly debated topic in the community..

    Some of you may have seen me express these thoughts recently in similar posts... My hope is that when Alpha Two releases, players who aren't familiar with or perhaps not overly enthusiastic about true open-world PvPvE / PvX will see firsthand how it works and perhaps better understand what makes it fun. While it certainly isn't for everyone, I think that some people will be surprised with how well it can work, though!

    Perhaps some of you can share interesting or fun open-world PvP stories for those who are hesitant about the feature? ^_^
    community_management.gif
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Certainly a hotly debated topic in the community..

    Some of you may have seen me express these thoughts recently in similar posts... My hope is that when Alpha Two releases, players who aren't familiar with or perhaps not overly enthusiastic about true open-world PvPvE / PvX will see firsthand how it works and perhaps better understand what makes it fun. While it certainly isn't for everyone, I think that some people will be surprised with how well it can work, though!

    Perhaps some of you can share interesting or fun open-world PvP stories for those who are hesitant about the feature? ^_^

    I, for one, have no such experiences to share that I would expect anyone hesitant to feel anything remotely positive about. No owPvP game has managed it for ME, and I say this as a player who will gladly both initiate and accept owPvP under nearly any circumstance. Even as the initiator, it is nearly never a satisfying experience in MMOs for me.

    I think I can count the number of times I had a positive owPvP experience on two hands. At least it's not just one. But to be fair, I don't play many such games.

    I will hope to be surprised. And I definitely will be surprised if it works.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NorkoreNorkore Member
    edited June 22
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Certainly a hotly debated topic in the community..

    Some of you may have seen me express these thoughts recently in similar posts... My hope is that when Alpha Two releases, players who aren't familiar with or perhaps not overly enthusiastic about true open-world PvPvE / PvX will see firsthand how it works and perhaps better understand what makes it fun. While it certainly isn't for everyone, I think that some people will be surprised with how well it can work, though!

    Perhaps some of you can share interesting or fun open-world PvP stories for those who are hesitant about the feature? ^_^

    Honestly it's difficult to share stories because there are so many, but I will try I guess. First I'd like to talk a little bit about the company I was part of.

    My most recent open world PvP stories are from New World. I used to play in a company that participated in both PvP and PvE, but player driven conflict management was our main profile: making treaties with other guilds, protecting smaller communities, managing wars within our faction (syndicate), organizing people to defend/capture the fort in our main region, and actively hunting people in the open who bullied lower level players.

    It was common practice by marauders on our server to level in small groups (3-5 people per group) and to actively look for fights in the quest areas, but one day some groups decided they are going to hunt people who are just idling outside the Everfall dungeon (can't recall what's it called). Since toggling PvP gave a boost to XP, many people turned it on, even if they played alone, which of course resulted in people getting smacked right outside the dungeon. After people alerted the faction chat of what's happening we immediately started organizing groups ourselves, while making sure to invite the solo randoms who wanted to join (we were in discord and the randoms pretty much just followed us around, it worked well).

    As we arrived at the location we didn't find anyone, so we started running around, because we doubted they would just leave like this. After looking for a bit we found them lying in the grass, once one of them was spotted almost immediately 30+ marauders just appeared from the grass and bushes, and the whole thing turned into a massive fight. We traded back and fourth for some time, it was a very even fight, well played on both sides with organized groups.

    However the covenant groups also realized what's going on, and they wanted to have control over the dungeon entrance, but we haven't realized this until it was too late and we got flanked by them. Luckily some of us managed to get out alive, then we regrouped back at town, once regrouped we ran right back to the location hoping people would still be there, and just as we arrived so did the other faction's groups. It was really funny how the three factions just stood in a triangle and looked at each other, waiting what happens next. More people joined our cause on syndicate side, so we ended up winning this conflict, and we had control over the dungeon area. They never contested the dungeon area, but they kept fighting for the fort, but we kept shutting them down. We never lost the region (until I was playing at least, as far as I know the server doesn't exist anymore).

    These are the moments why I really like games that encourage people to participate in open world PvP. The social interactions make the game much more fun to me, and this feeling is what I'm looking for in Ashes too. I like engaging with people in the open world, and PvP is perfect for that. PvP is also very different from PvE in the sense of the content that's needed to keep the players busy. In PvE players depend a lot more on the team's development cycle than in PvP. So even though I enjoy PvE as well, I prefer the PvP gameplay loop a lot more.
    I'm super excited about caravans, sieges, and contested open world bosses.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Certainly a hotly debated topic in the community..

    Some of you may have seen me express these thoughts recently in similar posts... My hope is that when Alpha Two releases, players who aren't familiar with or perhaps not overly enthusiastic about true open-world PvPvE / PvX will see firsthand how it works and perhaps better understand what makes it fun. While it certainly isn't for everyone, I think that some people will be surprised with how well it can work, though!

    Perhaps some of you can share interesting or fun open-world PvP stories for those who are hesitant about the feature? ^_^

    I, for one, have no such experiences to share that I would expect anyone hesitant to feel anything remotely positive about. No owPvP game has managed it for ME, and I say this as a player who will gladly both initiate and accept owPvP under nearly any circumstance. Even as the initiator, it is nearly never a satisfying experience in MMOs for me.

    I think I can count the number of times I had a positive owPvP experience on two hands. At least it's not just one. But to be fair, I don't play many such games.

    I will hope to be surprised. And I definitely will be surprised if it works.

    Curious what are you expecting out owpvp, What is it that you want?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Certainly a hotly debated topic in the community..

    Some of you may have seen me express these thoughts recently in similar posts... My hope is that when Alpha Two releases, players who aren't familiar with or perhaps not overly enthusiastic about true open-world PvPvE / PvX will see firsthand how it works and perhaps better understand what makes it fun. While it certainly isn't for everyone, I think that some people will be surprised with how well it can work, though!

    Perhaps some of you can share interesting or fun open-world PvP stories for those who are hesitant about the feature? ^_^

    I, for one, have no such experiences to share that I would expect anyone hesitant to feel anything remotely positive about. No owPvP game has managed it for ME, and I say this as a player who will gladly both initiate and accept owPvP under nearly any circumstance. Even as the initiator, it is nearly never a satisfying experience in MMOs for me.

    I think I can count the number of times I had a positive owPvP experience on two hands. At least it's not just one. But to be fair, I don't play many such games.

    I will hope to be surprised. And I definitely will be surprised if it works.

    Curious what are you expecting out owpvp, What is it that you want?

    Same as I said before. I want the average person in the game to desire for it to happen the same way they desire to fight mobs.

    People who don't like fighting mobs either aren't who I'm talking about here. I want players to look at another player and go 'that looks like it may be about as much fun as fighting a good Elite mob' (bearing in mind that I come from games where basically all mobs have the potential to be interesting and challenging at-level). And then engage (or even check if the other person is willing to fight, if they wanna be super polite for some reason and aren't a Rogue) with the expectation that both sides will gain some knowledge or something from the fight.

    I'm sure there's some older MMO that gives this experience that I haven't played, but I'd like a new one.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    So you want a mmo where people attack first and ask questions later and are never afraid to fight? Even in older mmos that wasn't the case looking at another player was a red flag, either you are fighting, if you are lucky they are leaving or they might try to backstab you.

    To have a mmo like what you want where people are more keen on fighting each other imo would be more similar to some battle royale games where you don't have fear of losing anything. When i played shadowbane Id hunt players or be hunted it was fun but was also a lot to deal with to lose your farm.

    Bdo is closest to that mind set but that is because also how it is designed. Even on a more hardcore pvp servers that isn't something that is going to happen, i think what you are thinking of is a bit of an exaggeration and definitely not a PvX type game. There would never be honor or fair fights, power and numbers and a lot of running to not lose your year. On top of large guilds camping people so they can never leave.

    PvX is the best way with limits it makes the experiences more memorable then just having everyone trying to murder each other 24/7
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    So you want a mmo where people attack first and ask questions later and are never afraid to fight? Even in older mmos that wasn't the case looking at another player was a red flag, either you are fighting, if you are lucky they are leaving or they might try to backstab you.

    To have a mmo like what you want where people are more keen on fighting each other imo would be more similar to some battle royale games where you don't have fear of losing anything. When i played shadowbane Id hunt players or be hunted it was fun but was also a lot to deal with to lose your farm.

    Bdo is closest to that mind set but that is because also how it is designed. Even on a more hardcore pvp servers that isn't something that is going to happen, i think what you are thinking of is a bit of an exaggeration and definitely not a PvX type game. There would never be honor or fair fights, power and numbers and a lot of running to not lose your year. On top of large guilds camping people so they can never leave.

    PvX is the best way with limits it makes the experiences more memorable then just having everyone trying to murder each other 24/7

    I wish you were capable of having conversations without projecting so much/making assumptions about what other people want or how.

    I don't feel like trying to explain this to you though, maybe you're right and I don't want a PvX game and therefore won't like Ashes. That's a better simpler conclusion.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 22
    Can't really look at players the same way I look at mobs because mobs don't have true feelings.
    I don't care too much if I grief a mob. I don't care if a mob is not in the mood to fight.

    I like to eat fish, but fish eyes are disgusting.
    You can't make me enjoy eating fish eyes the way I enjoy eating fish.
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