I loved the combat update. Compared to how it was previously in alpha it is much more fluid. The mechanics of walking and moving are much better.
I know that only a focus on the basic attacks of two pieces of equipment was shown and that the target system will still be implemented, so I expect this system to also have significant improvement.
Frist of all, I'd like to say that I think combat is moving in the right direction. I am exceedingly happy with the direction combat seems to be progressing. I have some misgivings about the class and class skills, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. It's likely that my concerns were unfounded.
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
Variety. Basic weapon attack are the foundation of combat and a lot of effort should be spent on them. I would go so far as to say that basic melee weapon attacks should be perfected before moving on to other aspects of combat. Ideally, I'd have liked to have seen slower attack animations, and as the character obtains more attack speed from leveling-up, their basic combat animations would change to a style that both looked faster, but also allowed them to get in additional basic attacks in the same timeframe as the previously slower style. This was a thought in consideration that using attack speed to adjust animation speed doesn't seem to work well in most games that try it.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
I'd like to know how attributes like strength and attack speed scale to affect combat. The two handed-sword appears heavy in the hands of the character shown in the video, but then he is able to swing it around so quickly. Logically, a level 50 character will have significantly higher physical strength than a level 1 character, and so they would wield a two-handed sword much more casually. The level 1 character would either have a lot of difficulty wielding such a weapon, or not be able to wield it at all. This should be reflected in their stance (how they wield the weapon) as well as their attack speed (the speed at which they swing it around). The character in the video seems to only have the strength of a level 1 character when idling about with the two-handed sword, his stance reflects its weight, but then he casually swings it around with the strength, agility and dexterity of a level 50 character.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
I liked the direction that TERA took their basic combo attacks, focusing on strong poses for the animations. Basic weapon attacks were also done really well in Elder Scrolls Online, a good example of how dual wielding can work with different types of weapons equipped.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I'm concerned that those daggers displayed in the video might be a single item that is equipped in one weapon slot. I'm a dual wielder, and I firmly believe that warriors should be able to dual wield swords and rogues dual wield short swords or daggers that are 2 separate items. Dual Wielding two swords also shouldn't result in less attack power than a two-handed sword of equivalent value. In fact, obtaining two separate swords is more difficult than obtaining a single two-handed sword, which is why dual wielding two swords should have an advantage over a two-handed sword in the form of greater parrying potential. Then on the other side, if dual wielding has an advantage, it only stands to reason that it should also be more difficult to achieve, gated by a mastery point system, skill proficiency system, or whatever.
I understand that the character in the video was practically invulnerable, and that it was nowhere near the full extent of combat, but the monsters did not appear to be a threat to the character in any way whatsoever. For a character with access to even more class skills, this fact would only be further exacerbated. So far, this combat is going in the same direction Elder Scrolls Online went, where combat has become extreme easy mode. Going out in the game world, especially alone, should be very dangerous no matter what level you're at. Fighting monsters solo out in the world should also pose significant danger. It certainly doesn't help that the death penalty only includes losing some armor durability. At this rate, Ashes of Creation will have no danger or risk at all, and in the rare occasion there is some risk, it can be outright ignored because there are no consequences.
I would also like to take this opportunity to discuss monster AI. Now that the players have obtained greater agency in regards to combat mobility, monsters should also have this same agency. If players are jumping around, blocking, parrying and using basic weapon attacks then the monsters should be doing the same thing. Games like Ark or Dark & Light started moving in this direction, but they didn't do it very well. The panthers in Dark & Light would charge you when they saw you, get in some attacks, then back off and strafe around you until they were ready to burst you again. It wasn't easy to counter attack them since they're faster than the player. The griffons would fly around you in circles and come in for attacks every round instead of flying up to you and just sitting there with auto attacks going off until combat ends. You had to shoot the griffons with an arrow and then dodge roll underneath them as they tried to claw you with their talons. An unprepared solo player wouldn't survive such encounters, but you could learn to deal with them.
Personally, I was pretty happy with the basic melee attack showcase!
Things I liked:
1) Small details like weapon marks on the ground/environment (i.e. scrapes on the ground from the sword); I could also see this happening with bushes, trees, water, etc.
2) Being able to move (to a degree) while attacking and shifting camera as I plan to PvP quite a bit but this is also helpful in PvE undoubtedly.
Things I'm not sure about:
1) While it's a careful balance, the character getting hit by mobs seemed a little...weightless? Possibly add more animation (it appeared the model was sort of shrugging when they were hit) and interrupt character movement slightly to add some impactful'ness?
2) I believe I remember hearing fighting would be a hybrid "tab/tab-less" approach. I know this was melee and range has yet to come; but I THINK I'd like to try and have the ability to tab target to some degree with range as poor accuracy will be more harshly punished as a range fighter vs melee. Perhaps certain range spells/attacks are tab and some are not?
Overall, great job and I hope this was helpful! Keep it up you all
Generaly i feel this goes the right direction.Taking into consideration the game aims for realism and not cartoony/anime aesthetic ill say the following:
what i like: 1)agency of movement according to the weight of the weapon used.
2)active parry/block
3)the implementation of adjusting dmg numbers
what i do not like: 1)the yellow particle sword swing animation feels off(yellow particle doesnt match the blade's color).the dagger one i prefer.in general since these are just basic attacks id like to see very minimal particle effects something like a very slight windy particle effect even softer than what was showcased with the daggers and save the flashier animations for longer cooldown abilities.
2) whirlwind spinning attack with daggers feels weird.the size of the circle is much bigger than the reach of the daggers would suggest.also again i dont like the yellow color of the animation the daggers's blade is grey/silver whirlwind color should match that.
3)slamming a giant hammer(even though its a magical one) while being a dagger user seems a bit weird but id be ok with it if it fits the fantasy of the class.
4)lack of target responsiveness to your attack. meaning no enemy target body animation to indicate it received an attack.
5)lack of character responsiveness to enemy attack either when not parrying or when parrying.
6)2handed sword being the heaviest weapon.i strongly feel the 2handed hammer should be the heaviest.
concerns: 1)Steven stated that abilities are class generated and not weapon generated which im all up for but in this case you have to come up with a way to avoid visual weirdness for example a whirlwind/spinning attack like the one was shown while holding a bow.
suggestions: 1)when any target, character or enemy is hit by a physical attack or a spell there should be a body animation (not necessarily a stagger effect just an animation) indicating that and this should take in consideration the weight of your weapon and the weight of your enemy, for example hiting a giant even if with a giant hammer the giant doesnt have any animation to indicate he recieved a hit because well he is a giant.You could split those animation in categories for example squirel monster+2handed hammer exaggerated animation. huge dragon+any weapon no animation.same for parrying/blocking.
2)in the case of a spell caster using any type of weapon i dont think there are any problems since he/she will be using the weapon just for basic attacks.for non spell casters make vissualy clear animations to indicate where the attack comes from, for example in the case of whirlwind/spinning attack while using daggers, make an animation where the character is seen holding some king of magical weapon to indicate that this weapon is what generates the whirlwind and not the daggers.Alternatively you can tie the usage of specific spells to specific weapons for example whilwind requires 2handed weapon while a jump type of attack requires light weapons( daggers,maces etc.).
what i would liike to see: other ways to counter attacks for example a mage conjuring a magical shield to block enemy projectiles for x second in the direction you are facing or a summoner using his summon to intercept an attack.
PS. i vote for limited dye color options. seeing an orc tank dyed in fuchsia certainly looks weird to my eyes.
i dont know how many of my suggestions are realistically possible but i hope you can take something meaningfull out of all these :)i cant wait for the next combat showcase and I wish you all the best!
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
- Nice smooth movement between abilities and during movement, the current state is fairly good, sometime some frames seem to be missing but this is the direction i want
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
- jump attack ? we havent seen how they look right now, what if i like to jump as i attack? What if i want to strafe with tab targetting how does it look ? since not everything is shown i cant say for sure if its even missing.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- Enemy staggered while being attacked would be good or just having some sort of animation when being hit.When playing an MMO i do not want to feel like playing something like Dynasty warrior where you are encouraged to constantly pull a bunch of mobs with all your classes without being put in danger.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
The weapon trailing could use a bit of work, like maybe not as bright and for it to fade instead of completely disappear all at once.
Overall love the direction, I like the 3 hit combos, but a lot of the time i care a lot more about the look of the other major abilities i would press and while leveling i have new button to press and it makes me feel happy. Part of me doesnt want to look and hit the same way i do at level 1 as when i do at lvl 50.
The lateral improvements that a character gets, are only as interesting as the player feels even if you believe its adding something else, the core experience might still feel the same and its my worry. if all that it changes is the color or trail effect of the 3 hit combo then i may be disappointed. i want to be able to use my full kit efficiently on some enemies and feel like im playing my class well.
Here is my feedback:
First I will start by answering your main question Steven, Yes I feel this combat is the right direction overall and I'm very excited to see what you ultimately end up with. This appears to be a huge improvement over Alpha 1. I really do see the progress and passion that you guys are putting into your game. I want to play this so right now!
Please continue the great job you guys are doing!!!
What I loved:
-Seemed pretty smooth already for Alpha
-"Flashiness" looked appropriate and not to little but not over the top either.
-Looked responsive, though I would need to feel this myself to know for sure.
-Loved the environment damage that we seen on the ground. This is awesome and gives you better feel and visual.
-Combat sounds seemed to be really good and made sense.
-I really liked the "gap closer" ability and how this seemed to play really well into the flow of the combat.
Feedback for potential improvement:
-Would like to be able to jump and swing as I come down or drop on an enemy player or NPC. I didn't see this and maybe its there already. Please implement this if not. It gives you another feel of freedom in combat.
-While the daggers looked great for its speed, I would agree with others that the sword for some parts looked a bit fast for what the weapon is. It still looked great and I'm sure this will be refined, but I would agree that maybe it could be slightly slowed in some parts but it wasn't all swings and only some. I did see the weightiness in parts of the combo and it looked good, I just think there is still some adjustment there to be done.
Overall I am confident in you and your teams ability to give us a great game with great combat. I look forward to seeing this progress even more.
Thank you for all your hard work.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Whirlwind is a Fighter Active Skill.
That will happen with every weapon a Fighter wields when Whirlwind is activated.
Same with Hammer Strike.
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
- To me, what matters most is the interactiveness with the world, fluency of motion, coolness of attacks, and the feel of using the weapon.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
- Looks great so far! Looking forward to seeing how it connects with weaving between skills and auto attacks!
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- New World has attack patterns for their weapons that look and seem accurate despite being very mundane. What I think is important to add to a combat system is to have a variety of different styles within a weapon subgroup. Say with swords for example. It would be epic if you could have a style like Galen the Starkiller from star wars or Zoro from one piece. And have those styles adjust how you swing those swords.
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
- Everything looks great so far but like what was said in the Livestream, in order to keep fluency between combat in PvE and PVP, there has to be a set level of attack speed. My main concern is, how will you counter people that have to deal with high ping? Will there be a server for each data location? (Oceania in particular) For me and many others, latency is an absolute factor that makes me decide whether or not I should play a game.
For the PVE: The system seems to be pretty good, seen in video, obviously, we'll have to see what it gives with time and by testing in A2.
For the PVP dimension: It is difficult to know if this system is optimal for PVP. Because we would have to see you in PVP action to judge the PVP dimension of the combat system.
But concerning PVP, I have one main remark:
You want PVP to be "mobile" and there is nothing wrong with that. But I see a problem with it, example:
I engage the fight against another player, we start to fight and this one decides to run away. What way do I have to catch up with my opponent?
Because yes, this is a real problem. My experience as a PVP player has taught me that many players will prefer to run away and make us run rather than fight. And that can be very frustrating for PVP players.
Otherwise, you have done well, the community encourages you to continue!
"Aux yeux du chaos, tout les hommes sont égaux. Sauf ceux qui s'y soumettent."
Reminds me a bit of Dragon Age 2, only better. Although for me the ideal combat system is the one that was in the first part of Dragon Age.
As for PvP, for me the ideal is Warhammer Age of Reckoning MMOrpg:
a) Collisions that prevented the character from passing through other characters, which gave tactical advantages during the battle, and made ambushes on the battlefield real and effective.
b) Ignore armor for back or side attacks.
c) Storming fortresses, etc.
I also like the pick-counter-pick system of heroes/classes in the pvp HOTS moba . I think that each class should have an anti-class, only on this thou can build a real PvP balance while maintaining the diversity and uniqueness of classes, and nothing else.
P.s. The combat speed can be slightly reduced, especially for two-handed weapons. The heaviest and slowest from my point of view should be hammers, sledgehammers, etc. And I hope there will be spears in the game.
P.s. I would also like to see in the game a well-thought-out system of pros and cons for each type of armor and weapons, their effectiveness against each other. For example: daggers and blunt weapons are effective against a well-armored opponent, crossbows and bows should differ in effectiveness depending on the distance to the target, spears and two-handed weapons should have a larger radius of destruction than other types of weapons, etc.
Great progress being made. Please just ensure adequate options are included to reduce visual noise of the vfx, especially when it comes to large scale pvp.
Most aspects have to be seen in the context of the whole picture that of course is not present yet
*** General Feedback
-Everythings already looking great
-Feels smooth (at least looks like it, when Steven plays)
-Like the 'Agency first then weight' approach
-Like the 'light weapons minimum restrictions vs heavy weapons more restrictions' approach
-Basic Systems already look stable as hell
*** Do I think the combat system is developing to the right direction?
Yes, no, maybe
As already mentioned, it looks good and I understand, that you target a combat that feels more active and reactive than some of the older MMORPGs systems,
but there is one thing I disliked from what I saw.
When you just auto-hit with your greatsword and even with the daggers you always hit everything around you.
Especially with the greatsword that is exactly what the visual representation looks like, but this removes some sort of "controllability".
Its hard to describe, what exactly I mean (at least with my restricted english), but I try:
For me as a player to know what is going on and be able to directly react to it, is one of the most important aspects in such a game.
But to be honest, I dont think this will be the case at the moment. Yes, agency... but even Steven running around alone and fighting some Golems is already
kind of spamming a significant amount of numbers in the Scrolling Combat Text because with every auto-swing you just hit all two to ten enemies at once.
And this is only auto-hitting at the moment. I really really liked the approach of some older MMOs combat systems here where the default was, that you hit one particular target
and there were special abilities to hit multiple targets when you wished to.
The amount of controllability coming from this felt really great. The possibility to have soft-CCs that broke when someone did damage to the CCed enemy was only possible because of this for example.
Soft-CCs would be impossible in a game like Guild Wars 2 for example where the default for everything seems to be that it hits 5 targets at once.
I dont know how often I accidently hit peaceful Moas there because I simply couldnt help it.
TLDR: I think the player agency aspect would benefit from a system where it is your explicit decision to attack multiple targets at once!
From the looks of it definetly going into a positive direction especially the differnce in weapon behavior is great.
Room for improvement:
- more impact on character when blocking
- option to reduce/thinnen weapon swing particles and hit flashing. I'd like to see what is going on and while the current version is just on the edge of being ok for solo I really fear the flashy ball a boss will become when hitting it with a group or even more people.
- slightly slower pace for all weapons. The daggers felt definetly too fast but also the great sword could be lowered a bit. It felt a bit like push the buttons even faster for more dps
- (in case it is not there already) have the option to disable text entriely per source event
I engage the fight against another player, we start to fight and this one decides to run away. What way do I have to catch up with my opponent?
Because yes, this is a real problem. My experience as a PVP player has taught me that many players will prefer to run away and make us run rather than fight. And that can be very frustrating for PVP players.
That's my plan.
I expect to suck at PvP, so if I can get away with my materials, then Brave Sir Robin it is.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I have the feeling that i got out of the combat showcase with more questions than answers. Hope they will be adressed in the next live stream.
For what we saw :
Animations were really good
VFX was a little too much for my taste (especially 2H sword)
love the sense of details with the marks on the ground etc
Directionnal movements have a good feeling to it
I find the player movement and the attacks a little too fast in general, or to be more precise the spacing between attacks to be too fast, they chain just a little to fast into each other imho.
Some animations end brutally i don't know if it by design to give a sense of "Mastery" and "Viciousness" but it's a little over the top, i would tone down to something a little more natural. More specifically when the button is spammed, it’s less visible when the attacks are a little more spaced in the video and it feel better when it’s not spammed.
Active blocking is cool but it misses some animations of actual parry, visual indicator etc
Same for the dodge of attacks (if there is dodge)
The taking damage animation should be integrated in or beetween the combos, i did not see stagger or something like that, but when you are overwhelmed by attacks and monster i would like to see more than a repeating animation of "Uh"
I am not a fan of Camera Shake, Blur etc with solo content, open world it can be bearable but in group content or PVP it often become a hindrance to the readability of the action. It should be possible to achieve the same results in weightness without it, cause most people will disable the option.
Variation would be welcome even if i understand you did animations for each directions but maybe it's because we only saw auto attacks for 30 minutes or so.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
For the PVE: The system seems to be pretty good, seen in video, obviously, we'll have to see what it gives with time and by testing in A2.
For the PVP dimension: It is difficult to know if this system is optimal for PVP. Because we would have to see you in PVP action to judge the PVP dimension of the combat system.
But concerning PVP, I have one main remark:
You want PVP to be "mobile" and there is nothing wrong with that. But I see a problem with it, example:
I engage the fight against another player, we start to fight and this one decides to run away. What way do I have to catch up with my opponent?
Because yes, this is a real problem. My experience as a PVP player has taught me that many players will prefer to run away and make us run rather than fight. And that can be very frustrating for PVP players.
Otherwise, you have done well, the community encourages you to continue!
New world had the running issue and it doesn't help when you are slowed down by attacking. I'd say fi you are being hit a small movement debuff needs to be applied which will be equal if they are both fighting. But if one is simply trying to run away it will make it more difficult
-The most important aspects of combat to me are fluidity in the fight. Whether it be against a typical NPC, a group of NPC's, a raid boss, in small scale PvP, or in sieges. The fights should feel seamless and satisfying by minimalizing unwanted clunkyness in gameplay unless designed in that way with a specific purpose(i.e a powerful attack that needs a sort of charge up). Keep working on those directional transitions with attacks and abilities and I believe you are on the correct path to succeeding in this.
-Basic melee attacks seem solid as long as you continue to develop your direction transitions with attacks. Looking forward to see whats in store for ranged attacks!
-I feel Guild Wars 2 had a great way of keeping combat fluid while also acknowledging that certain attacks require a sort of "lock-in" to make the abilities have more weight and potentially consequence if used at the wrong time. World of warcraft is honestly the standard for fluid MMO combat in my opinion. Attacks and abilities are seamless, visually satisfying, and for the most part are well thought out as far as making certain abilities lock in for weight. WoW's biggest issue though is balancing those abilities, so be sure to focus on thought out balance between not only abilities, but also weapon types used in basic combat. You dont want any weapon getting left behind or too far ahead of the rest.
-Excited to see more abilities paired with each weapon. Very excited to see what sort of ranged attack systems you are working on, mainly for bow's (showcase them rangers and rogues!). Also definitely want to see the different weapon animations across the different races as well once you have better developed the directional attack transitions for each.
-Overall you are doing incredibly well, I would suggest doing many tests for combat attack/ability fluidity focusing on PvP because thats the difficult one to pull off, but it directly crosses over to PvE when fighting against NPC's and Raid bosses in terms of how good the combat can feel.
Really nice update, you just need to polish it i have already see a good suggestion in comments, i dont need to repeat other people, go haead intrepid team!
Overall I like the direction, I think that it has a good look and feel. It feels modern, animations need some smoothening but I'm sure that's for a later date.
I'm an experienced PvP player, 2 concerns I have to ponder:
1) Active Block - Not sure if this is a good thing, maybe better as a skill for a tank class rather than a weapon skill? If it's implemented as a weapon skill maybe you can use it max "cast time" and a CD. Otherwise you are going to just have people sit there with active block for long period of time - seems like bad gameplay. Same for PvE bosses, a tank for most of the fight will be sitting there with active block to tank the boss.
2) I see there being an issue with too much mobility. If you have dodge rolls + a plethora of mobility skills you can end of in a situation of the game being too "actiony" rather than your positioning being important which to me should be part of the game not just dodging skills all the time. Also the tab v action for melee is largely about how much mobility you are allowed to have to dodge an oppositions skills, so I'm in favor of having some mobility but it being limited. Otherwise you end of with a meta of group --> mobility in --> CC target --> burst dmg --> mobility out. Also this may make traditional tab player not enjoy the combat so a nice balance has to be struck imo. Sometimes less is more!
Carrying a (large) sword
- When running with a large sword, it does not make sense carrying it infront of the body. This would tax the swordsman, it makes more sense having it resting towards a shoulder.
Tip: check youtube for a video called "Longsword Fighting - Awesome Exchanges!" and also for a content creator called "Skallagrim".
- My point is to take the "pose" in consideration when not active in combat and what make sense on how one would carry a sword when running around with it in hand.
Weapon blur
- Unless there is some obvious magical glow on sword (e.g. if it's enchanted), there should not be a colorful arc trailing the sword. My taste/preference is a more "air" effect although I would not mind sparks if you hit a target who wears armor or other hard surface that would(could cause a spark to make the hit feel impactful (or red mist with a critical hit)
my two cents.. other then this really impressed so far
I personally love the direction the game is going and thank you for not tying the abilities to weapons that is an amazing move, the combat looks amazing so far
I do however worry that the regular attack animations looked like they are going straight through the enemies and with the way the character slides around with strafe inputs it might make the combat feel too floaty, the abilities however look spot on.
I can't be sure however if it will feel floaty until playing the game but from what ive seen from this team so far it is extremely refreshing to see a company be so forthright and honest with the direction of the game that i have the utmost faith that yall will get it dialed in.
Stay on this path. Do not stray from this combat style. Just modify it for each weapon, integrate it with spells that require weapons and you are good to go.
Greetings to all, Black Desert Online - in my opinion, there is not yet a single game in the MMORPG genre where melee and ranged combat in PVP would be more dynamic and interesting than in it. I've always enjoyed playing PVP, you just merge with your character into one and feel your class, full immersion and the feeling of who you're playing on!
Great job so far and i love the passion you make in your work guys for all the lovers of the genre. I agree to a lot of other things guys were saying about feedback of what the player does but the most important thing i can see be fun for a week but really tiresome in long term is the aoe fest the video let out . imagine having 5 ppl whirlwind in a siege. and atop of them 5 mages spamming aoe spells . and 5 healers also healing circles. where this aoe fest-bull is ending. on the other hand if u didn't get your whirlwind first and u get hit by the first guy he does that and interrupt yours . Also imagine implementing friendly fire be also the case, not full but having an effect :P what we have there : MEANINFUL PLANNED ACTIONS:P not aoe fest Please make it happen !
Comments
I know that only a focus on the basic attacks of two pieces of equipment was shown and that the target system will still be implemented, so I expect this system to also have significant improvement.
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
Variety. Basic weapon attack are the foundation of combat and a lot of effort should be spent on them. I would go so far as to say that basic melee weapon attacks should be perfected before moving on to other aspects of combat. Ideally, I'd have liked to have seen slower attack animations, and as the character obtains more attack speed from leveling-up, their basic combat animations would change to a style that both looked faster, but also allowed them to get in additional basic attacks in the same timeframe as the previously slower style. This was a thought in consideration that using attack speed to adjust animation speed doesn't seem to work well in most games that try it.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
I'd like to know how attributes like strength and attack speed scale to affect combat. The two handed-sword appears heavy in the hands of the character shown in the video, but then he is able to swing it around so quickly. Logically, a level 50 character will have significantly higher physical strength than a level 1 character, and so they would wield a two-handed sword much more casually. The level 1 character would either have a lot of difficulty wielding such a weapon, or not be able to wield it at all. This should be reflected in their stance (how they wield the weapon) as well as their attack speed (the speed at which they swing it around). The character in the video seems to only have the strength of a level 1 character when idling about with the two-handed sword, his stance reflects its weight, but then he casually swings it around with the strength, agility and dexterity of a level 50 character.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
I liked the direction that TERA took their basic combo attacks, focusing on strong poses for the animations. Basic weapon attacks were also done really well in Elder Scrolls Online, a good example of how dual wielding can work with different types of weapons equipped.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I'm concerned that those daggers displayed in the video might be a single item that is equipped in one weapon slot. I'm a dual wielder, and I firmly believe that warriors should be able to dual wield swords and rogues dual wield short swords or daggers that are 2 separate items. Dual Wielding two swords also shouldn't result in less attack power than a two-handed sword of equivalent value. In fact, obtaining two separate swords is more difficult than obtaining a single two-handed sword, which is why dual wielding two swords should have an advantage over a two-handed sword in the form of greater parrying potential. Then on the other side, if dual wielding has an advantage, it only stands to reason that it should also be more difficult to achieve, gated by a mastery point system, skill proficiency system, or whatever.
I understand that the character in the video was practically invulnerable, and that it was nowhere near the full extent of combat, but the monsters did not appear to be a threat to the character in any way whatsoever. For a character with access to even more class skills, this fact would only be further exacerbated. So far, this combat is going in the same direction Elder Scrolls Online went, where combat has become extreme easy mode. Going out in the game world, especially alone, should be very dangerous no matter what level you're at. Fighting monsters solo out in the world should also pose significant danger. It certainly doesn't help that the death penalty only includes losing some armor durability. At this rate, Ashes of Creation will have no danger or risk at all, and in the rare occasion there is some risk, it can be outright ignored because there are no consequences.
I would also like to take this opportunity to discuss monster AI. Now that the players have obtained greater agency in regards to combat mobility, monsters should also have this same agency. If players are jumping around, blocking, parrying and using basic weapon attacks then the monsters should be doing the same thing. Games like Ark or Dark & Light started moving in this direction, but they didn't do it very well. The panthers in Dark & Light would charge you when they saw you, get in some attacks, then back off and strafe around you until they were ready to burst you again. It wasn't easy to counter attack them since they're faster than the player. The griffons would fly around you in circles and come in for attacks every round instead of flying up to you and just sitting there with auto attacks going off until combat ends. You had to shoot the griffons with an arrow and then dodge roll underneath them as they tried to claw you with their talons. An unprepared solo player wouldn't survive such encounters, but you could learn to deal with them.
Things I liked:
1) Small details like weapon marks on the ground/environment (i.e. scrapes on the ground from the sword); I could also see this happening with bushes, trees, water, etc.
2) Being able to move (to a degree) while attacking and shifting camera as I plan to PvP quite a bit but this is also helpful in PvE undoubtedly.
Things I'm not sure about:
1) While it's a careful balance, the character getting hit by mobs seemed a little...weightless? Possibly add more animation (it appeared the model was sort of shrugging when they were hit) and interrupt character movement slightly to add some impactful'ness?
2) I believe I remember hearing fighting would be a hybrid "tab/tab-less" approach. I know this was melee and range has yet to come; but I THINK I'd like to try and have the ability to tab target to some degree with range as poor accuracy will be more harshly punished as a range fighter vs melee. Perhaps certain range spells/attacks are tab and some are not?
Overall, great job and I hope this was helpful! Keep it up you all
what i like: 1)agency of movement according to the weight of the weapon used.
2)active parry/block
3)the implementation of adjusting dmg numbers
what i do not like: 1)the yellow particle sword swing animation feels off(yellow particle doesnt match the blade's color).the dagger one i prefer.in general since these are just basic attacks id like to see very minimal particle effects something like a very slight windy particle effect even softer than what was showcased with the daggers and save the flashier animations for longer cooldown abilities.
2) whirlwind spinning attack with daggers feels weird.the size of the circle is much bigger than the reach of the daggers would suggest.also again i dont like the yellow color of the animation the daggers's blade is grey/silver whirlwind color should match that.
3)slamming a giant hammer(even though its a magical one) while being a dagger user seems a bit weird but id be ok with it if it fits the fantasy of the class.
4)lack of target responsiveness to your attack. meaning no enemy target body animation to indicate it received an attack.
5)lack of character responsiveness to enemy attack either when not parrying or when parrying.
6)2handed sword being the heaviest weapon.i strongly feel the 2handed hammer should be the heaviest.
concerns: 1)Steven stated that abilities are class generated and not weapon generated which im all up for but in this case you have to come up with a way to avoid visual weirdness for example a whirlwind/spinning attack like the one was shown while holding a bow.
suggestions: 1)when any target, character or enemy is hit by a physical attack or a spell there should be a body animation (not necessarily a stagger effect just an animation) indicating that and this should take in consideration the weight of your weapon and the weight of your enemy, for example hiting a giant even if with a giant hammer the giant doesnt have any animation to indicate he recieved a hit because well he is a giant.You could split those animation in categories for example squirel monster+2handed hammer exaggerated animation. huge dragon+any weapon no animation.same for parrying/blocking.
2)in the case of a spell caster using any type of weapon i dont think there are any problems since he/she will be using the weapon just for basic attacks.for non spell casters make vissualy clear animations to indicate where the attack comes from, for example in the case of whirlwind/spinning attack while using daggers, make an animation where the character is seen holding some king of magical weapon to indicate that this weapon is what generates the whirlwind and not the daggers.Alternatively you can tie the usage of specific spells to specific weapons for example whilwind requires 2handed weapon while a jump type of attack requires light weapons( daggers,maces etc.).
what i would liike to see: other ways to counter attacks for example a mage conjuring a magical shield to block enemy projectiles for x second in the direction you are facing or a summoner using his summon to intercept an attack.
PS. i vote for limited dye color options. seeing an orc tank dyed in fuchsia certainly looks weird to my eyes.
i dont know how many of my suggestions are realistically possible but i hope you can take something meaningfull out of all these :)i cant wait for the next combat showcase and I wish you all the best!
- Nice smooth movement between abilities and during movement, the current state is fairly good, sometime some frames seem to be missing but this is the direction i want
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
- jump attack ? we havent seen how they look right now, what if i like to jump as i attack? What if i want to strafe with tab targetting how does it look ? since not everything is shown i cant say for sure if its even missing.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- Enemy staggered while being attacked would be good or just having some sort of animation when being hit.When playing an MMO i do not want to feel like playing something like Dynasty warrior where you are encouraged to constantly pull a bunch of mobs with all your classes without being put in danger.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
The weapon trailing could use a bit of work, like maybe not as bright and for it to fade instead of completely disappear all at once.
Overall love the direction, I like the 3 hit combos, but a lot of the time i care a lot more about the look of the other major abilities i would press and while leveling i have new button to press and it makes me feel happy. Part of me doesnt want to look and hit the same way i do at level 1 as when i do at lvl 50.
The lateral improvements that a character gets, are only as interesting as the player feels even if you believe its adding something else, the core experience might still feel the same and its my worry. if all that it changes is the color or trail effect of the 3 hit combo then i may be disappointed. i want to be able to use my full kit efficiently on some enemies and feel like im playing my class well.
Here is my feedback:
First I will start by answering your main question Steven, Yes I feel this combat is the right direction overall and I'm very excited to see what you ultimately end up with. This appears to be a huge improvement over Alpha 1. I really do see the progress and passion that you guys are putting into your game. I want to play this so right now!
Please continue the great job you guys are doing!!!
What I loved:
-Seemed pretty smooth already for Alpha
-"Flashiness" looked appropriate and not to little but not over the top either.
-Looked responsive, though I would need to feel this myself to know for sure.
-Loved the environment damage that we seen on the ground. This is awesome and gives you better feel and visual.
-Combat sounds seemed to be really good and made sense.
-I really liked the "gap closer" ability and how this seemed to play really well into the flow of the combat.
Feedback for potential improvement:
-Would like to be able to jump and swing as I come down or drop on an enemy player or NPC. I didn't see this and maybe its there already. Please implement this if not. It gives you another feel of freedom in combat.
-While the daggers looked great for its speed, I would agree with others that the sword for some parts looked a bit fast for what the weapon is. It still looked great and I'm sure this will be refined, but I would agree that maybe it could be slightly slowed in some parts but it wasn't all swings and only some. I did see the weightiness in parts of the combo and it looked good, I just think there is still some adjustment there to be done.
Overall I am confident in you and your teams ability to give us a great game with great combat. I look forward to seeing this progress even more.
Thank you for all your hard work.
That will happen with every weapon a Fighter wields when Whirlwind is activated.
Same with Hammer Strike.
- To me, what matters most is the interactiveness with the world, fluency of motion, coolness of attacks, and the feel of using the weapon.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
- Looks great so far! Looking forward to seeing how it connects with weaving between skills and auto attacks!
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- New World has attack patterns for their weapons that look and seem accurate despite being very mundane. What I think is important to add to a combat system is to have a variety of different styles within a weapon subgroup. Say with swords for example. It would be epic if you could have a style like Galen the Starkiller from star wars or Zoro from one piece. And have those styles adjust how you swing those swords.
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
- Everything looks great so far but like what was said in the Livestream, in order to keep fluency between combat in PvE and PVP, there has to be a set level of attack speed. My main concern is, how will you counter people that have to deal with high ping? Will there be a server for each data location? (Oceania in particular) For me and many others, latency is an absolute factor that makes me decide whether or not I should play a game.
For the PVP dimension: It is difficult to know if this system is optimal for PVP. Because we would have to see you in PVP action to judge the PVP dimension of the combat system.
But concerning PVP, I have one main remark:
You want PVP to be "mobile" and there is nothing wrong with that. But I see a problem with it, example:
I engage the fight against another player, we start to fight and this one decides to run away. What way do I have to catch up with my opponent?
Because yes, this is a real problem. My experience as a PVP player has taught me that many players will prefer to run away and make us run rather than fight. And that can be very frustrating for PVP players.
Otherwise, you have done well, the community encourages you to continue!
As for PvP, for me the ideal is Warhammer Age of Reckoning MMOrpg:
a) Collisions that prevented the character from passing through other characters, which gave tactical advantages during the battle, and made ambushes on the battlefield real and effective.
b) Ignore armor for back or side attacks.
c) Storming fortresses, etc.
I also like the pick-counter-pick system of heroes/classes in the pvp HOTS moba . I think that each class should have an anti-class, only on this thou can build a real PvP balance while maintaining the diversity and uniqueness of classes, and nothing else.
P.s. The combat speed can be slightly reduced, especially for two-handed weapons. The heaviest and slowest from my point of view should be hammers, sledgehammers, etc. And I hope there will be spears in the game.
P.s. I would also like to see in the game a well-thought-out system of pros and cons for each type of armor and weapons, their effectiveness against each other. For example: daggers and blunt weapons are effective against a well-armored opponent, crossbows and bows should differ in effectiveness depending on the distance to the target, spears and two-handed weapons should have a larger radius of destruction than other types of weapons, etc.
*** General Feedback
-Everythings already looking great
-Feels smooth (at least looks like it, when Steven plays)
-Like the 'Agency first then weight' approach
-Like the 'light weapons minimum restrictions vs heavy weapons more restrictions' approach
-Basic Systems already look stable as hell
*** Do I think the combat system is developing to the right direction?
Yes, no, maybe
As already mentioned, it looks good and I understand, that you target a combat that feels more active and reactive than some of the older MMORPGs systems,
but there is one thing I disliked from what I saw.
When you just auto-hit with your greatsword and even with the daggers you always hit everything around you.
Especially with the greatsword that is exactly what the visual representation looks like, but this removes some sort of "controllability".
Its hard to describe, what exactly I mean (at least with my restricted english), but I try:
For me as a player to know what is going on and be able to directly react to it, is one of the most important aspects in such a game.
But to be honest, I dont think this will be the case at the moment. Yes, agency... but even Steven running around alone and fighting some Golems is already
kind of spamming a significant amount of numbers in the Scrolling Combat Text because with every auto-swing you just hit all two to ten enemies at once.
And this is only auto-hitting at the moment. I really really liked the approach of some older MMOs combat systems here where the default was, that you hit one particular target
and there were special abilities to hit multiple targets when you wished to.
The amount of controllability coming from this felt really great. The possibility to have soft-CCs that broke when someone did damage to the CCed enemy was only possible because of this for example.
Soft-CCs would be impossible in a game like Guild Wars 2 for example where the default for everything seems to be that it hits 5 targets at once.
I dont know how often I accidently hit peaceful Moas there because I simply couldnt help it.
TLDR: I think the player agency aspect would benefit from a system where it is your explicit decision to attack multiple targets at once!
Room for improvement:
- more impact on character when blocking
- option to reduce/thinnen weapon swing particles and hit flashing. I'd like to see what is going on and while the current version is just on the edge of being ok for solo I really fear the flashy ball a boss will become when hitting it with a group or even more people.
- slightly slower pace for all weapons. The daggers felt definetly too fast but also the great sword could be lowered a bit. It felt a bit like push the buttons even faster for more dps
- (in case it is not there already) have the option to disable text entriely per source event
I expect to suck at PvP, so if I can get away with my materials, then Brave Sir Robin it is.
For what we saw :
New world had the running issue and it doesn't help when you are slowed down by attacking. I'd say fi you are being hit a small movement debuff needs to be applied which will be equal if they are both fighting. But if one is simply trying to run away it will make it more difficult
-Basic melee attacks seem solid as long as you continue to develop your direction transitions with attacks. Looking forward to see whats in store for ranged attacks!
-I feel Guild Wars 2 had a great way of keeping combat fluid while also acknowledging that certain attacks require a sort of "lock-in" to make the abilities have more weight and potentially consequence if used at the wrong time. World of warcraft is honestly the standard for fluid MMO combat in my opinion. Attacks and abilities are seamless, visually satisfying, and for the most part are well thought out as far as making certain abilities lock in for weight. WoW's biggest issue though is balancing those abilities, so be sure to focus on thought out balance between not only abilities, but also weapon types used in basic combat. You dont want any weapon getting left behind or too far ahead of the rest.
-Excited to see more abilities paired with each weapon. Very excited to see what sort of ranged attack systems you are working on, mainly for bow's (showcase them rangers and rogues!). Also definitely want to see the different weapon animations across the different races as well once you have better developed the directional attack transitions for each.
-Overall you are doing incredibly well, I would suggest doing many tests for combat attack/ability fluidity focusing on PvP because thats the difficult one to pull off, but it directly crosses over to PvE when fighting against NPC's and Raid bosses in terms of how good the combat can feel.
I'm an experienced PvP player, 2 concerns I have to ponder:
1) Active Block - Not sure if this is a good thing, maybe better as a skill for a tank class rather than a weapon skill? If it's implemented as a weapon skill maybe you can use it max "cast time" and a CD. Otherwise you are going to just have people sit there with active block for long period of time - seems like bad gameplay. Same for PvE bosses, a tank for most of the fight will be sitting there with active block to tank the boss.
2) I see there being an issue with too much mobility. If you have dodge rolls + a plethora of mobility skills you can end of in a situation of the game being too "actiony" rather than your positioning being important which to me should be part of the game not just dodging skills all the time. Also the tab v action for melee is largely about how much mobility you are allowed to have to dodge an oppositions skills, so I'm in favor of having some mobility but it being limited. Otherwise you end of with a meta of group --> mobility in --> CC target --> burst dmg --> mobility out. Also this may make traditional tab player not enjoy the combat so a nice balance has to be struck imo. Sometimes less is more!
I'm going to keep it short and sweet.
Carrying a (large) sword
- When running with a large sword, it does not make sense carrying it infront of the body. This would tax the swordsman, it makes more sense having it resting towards a shoulder.
Tip: check youtube for a video called "Longsword Fighting - Awesome Exchanges!" and also for a content creator called "Skallagrim".
- My point is to take the "pose" in consideration when not active in combat and what make sense on how one would carry a sword when running around with it in hand.
Weapon blur
- Unless there is some obvious magical glow on sword (e.g. if it's enchanted), there should not be a colorful arc trailing the sword. My taste/preference is a more "air" effect although I would not mind sparks if you hit a target who wears armor or other hard surface that would(could cause a spark to make the hit feel impactful (or red mist with a critical hit)
my two cents.. other then this really impressed so far
I do however worry that the regular attack animations looked like they are going straight through the enemies and with the way the character slides around with strafe inputs it might make the combat feel too floaty, the abilities however look spot on.
I can't be sure however if it will feel floaty until playing the game but from what ive seen from this team so far it is extremely refreshing to see a company be so forthright and honest with the direction of the game that i have the utmost faith that yall will get it dialed in.
Keep up the great work