I went by the old numbers off the wiki. Much of my knowledge comes from the wiki. However, I do not check the wiki very often and my knowledge is not the most up to date. Due to the fact the corruption system hasn't been tested yet, i don't take any number to heart, I merely stated what the previous number was.
I went by the old numbers off the wiki. Much of my knowledge comes from the wiki. However, I do not check the wiki very often and my knowledge is not the most up to date. Due to the fact the corruption system hasn't been tested yet, i don't take any number to heart, I merely stated what the previous number was.
I think i know where your line of thought stems from.
Non-Combatants get the full death penalty (however high this is)
Combatants love half of it.
Corrupted lose 4x the amount a Non-Combatant does.
So it would be the combatant that loses up to 12,5%, a Non-Combatant 25% and a Corrupted 100%.
Any higher than that wouldn't make much sense as how is a Corrupted supposed to lose more than 100%.
Personally, i think it shouldnt be any lower than this either.
I went by the old numbers off the wiki. Much of my knowledge comes from the wiki. However, I do not check the wiki very often and my knowledge is not the most up to date. Due to the fact the corruption system hasn't been tested yet, i don't take any number to heart, I merely stated what the previous number was.
I think i know where your line of thought stems from.
Non-Combatants get the full death penalty (however high this is)
Combatants love half of it.
Corrupted lose 4x the amount a Non-Combatant does.
So it would be the combatant that loses up to 12,5%, a Non-Combatant 25% and a Corrupted 100%.
Any higher than that wouldn't make much sense as how is a Corrupted supposed to lose more than 100%.
The reason we count the 'Non-Combatant' penalty as the 'base 100%' is specifically because if you die in any OTHER way this is also your loss amount, which may be important to players under different circumstances.
So this is, afaik, the way Intrepid uses the terms, purposely. If you died in combat to another player while in Combatant state, you lose half as much as you'd lose if killed by a mob or fall damage or whatever else.
Yeah, i mean the calculations you've just expressed used to be on the wiki. Yet, Lex updates the wiki a lot. I wouldn't expect my knowledge to be up to date until launch and even then, my knowledge would usually be funnelled into activities I'm considering or actually doing. Due to our disposition of waiting for the game, I tend to have a much wider knowledge base than I would normally have. Its this reason why I don't always update my knowledge rapidly.
Since now we decidet to open the topic about the corruption system, lets look at it with the little information we have.
there are 3 state, green Non-Combatant, purple Combatant and red Corrupted.
To become corrupted you need to do X kills (3 maybe?) on a green player, that means if you attack that player and he goes afk you'll get the first strike. Now you can lose the corruption debuff in a few ways, for example getting killed by other players or killing mobs.
If you think about it, as is it right now is super exploitable in at least 3 way (i will not tell them here).
One more things is the fact that most of the time the first person that attack can "force" the other into pvp, for example if 2nd is killing a mob and you go in the range of 2nd attack and hit him with the right timing you force him in pvp, since is not something that you can turn on/off.
this means that if you really want to start griefing others nothing will stop you.
IF the sistem stay like this, since no test was done at the moment i hope they will see this and many other possible problem with the future test.
There are a few other problems with this sistem too but at the moment im too lazy to talk about it.
My point is, there are a lot of good and cool ideas but many of them right now seems to easy to abuse and i hope the devs will address this asap since before making the world big they should make it work in a way that no one can abuse the mechanics in a easy way.
And this kind of sistem are 3 time more important than a cool character customization, so i hope that in the next devblog/stream/ecc. someone manages to talk a little bit about this kind of things
Since now we decidet to open the topic about the corruption system, lets look at it with the little information we have.
there are 3 state, green Non-Combatant, purple Combatant and red Corrupted.
To become corrupted you need to do X kills (3 maybe?) on a green player, that means if you attack that player and he goes afk you'll get the first strike. Now you can lose the corruption debuff in a few ways, for example getting killed by other players or killing mobs.
If you think about it, as is it right now is super exploitable in at least 3 way (i will not tell them here).
One more things is the fact that most of the time the first person that attack can "force" the other into pvp, for example if 2nd is killing a mob and you go in the range of 2nd attack and hit him with the right timing you force him in pvp, since is not something that you can turn on/off.
this means that if you really want to start griefing others nothing will stop you.
IF the sistem stay like this, since no test was done at the moment i hope they will see this and many other possible problem with the future test.
There are a few other problems with this sistem too but at the moment im too lazy to talk about it.
My point is, there are a lot of good and cool ideas but many of them right now seems to easy to abuse and i hope the devs will address this asap since before making the world big they should make it work in a way that no one can abuse the mechanics in a easy way.
And this kind of sistem are 3 time more important than a cool character customization, so i hope that in the next devblog/stream/ecc. someone manages to talk a little bit about this kind of things
Yes, we know. Lots of very common perspectives on what some people consider obvious flaws.
But in the end, we're waiting.
There's lots of discussions about this system. Lotttssss of them. They all end the same way. This specific discussion could probably focus on 'how disrupting a world boss might result in players escaping without corruption if the boss is strong'.
Raids might need extra tanks just to handle what happens when their other Tanks or healers get CC'ed at critical moments. That might be the entire point.
First of all, it only takes one kill on a green to become corrupted.
Second of all, the corruption system is one of the worst systems for PvP.
Third of all, we can't get rid of the corruption system because all the PvEers and yourself would not be happy.
Thus, it matters not how it can be exploited because we can never remove the system. Therefore, the system must be kept in some form or other (The corruption system I mean). It is not our issue if there are issues the devs can't remedy because we never asked for the system - the devs dictated the system and the non pvp players want the system maintained.
Since now we decidet to open the topic about the corruption system, lets look at it with the little information we have.
there are 3 state, green Non-Combatant, purple Combatant and red Corrupted.
To become corrupted you need to do X kills (3 maybe?) on a green player, that means if you attack that player and he goes afk you'll get the first strike. Now you can lose the corruption debuff in a few ways, for example getting killed by other players or killing mobs.
If you think about it, as is it right now is super exploitable in at least 3 way (i will not tell them here).
One more things is the fact that most of the time the first person that attack can "force" the other into pvp, for example if 2nd is killing a mob and you go in the range of 2nd attack and hit him with the right timing you force him in pvp, since is not something that you can turn on/off.
this means that if you really want to start griefing others nothing will stop you.
IF the sistem stay like this, since no test was done at the moment i hope they will see this and many other possible problem with the future test.
There are a few other problems with this sistem too but at the moment im too lazy to talk about it.
My point is, there are a lot of good and cool ideas but many of them right now seems to easy to abuse and i hope the devs will address this asap since before making the world big they should make it work in a way that no one can abuse the mechanics in a easy way.
And this kind of sistem are 3 time more important than a cool character customization, so i hope that in the next devblog/stream/ecc. someone manages to talk a little bit about this kind of things
We dont have little information. This system works in other mmos.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Since now we decidet to open the topic about the corruption system, lets look at it with the little information we have.
there are 3 state, green Non-Combatant, purple Combatant and red Corrupted.
To become corrupted you need to do X kills (3 maybe?) on a green player, that means if you attack that player and he goes afk you'll get the first strike. Now you can lose the corruption debuff in a few ways, for example getting killed by other players or killing mobs.
If you think about it, as is it right now is super exploitable in at least 3 way (i will not tell them here).
One more things is the fact that most of the time the first person that attack can "force" the other into pvp, for example if 2nd is killing a mob and you go in the range of 2nd attack and hit him with the right timing you force him in pvp, since is not something that you can turn on/off.
this means that if you really want to start griefing others nothing will stop you.
IF the sistem stay like this, since no test was done at the moment i hope they will see this and many other possible problem with the future test.
There are a few other problems with this sistem too but at the moment im too lazy to talk about it.
My point is, there are a lot of good and cool ideas but many of them right now seems to easy to abuse and i hope the devs will address this asap since before making the world big they should make it work in a way that no one can abuse the mechanics in a easy way.
And this kind of sistem are 3 time more important than a cool character customization, so i hope that in the next devblog/stream/ecc. someone manages to talk a little bit about this kind of things
You become corrupted upon killing one green player.
If you are green, someone running into your attack isn't going to make you purple. You have to target and force attack a player to be flagged for pvp.
We can probably answer your other questions if you ask them.
Since now we decidet to open the topic about the corruption system, lets look at it with the little information we have.
there are 3 state, green Non-Combatant, purple Combatant and red Corrupted.
To become corrupted you need to do X kills (3 maybe?) on a green player, that means if you attack that player and he goes afk you'll get the first strike. Now you can lose the corruption debuff in a few ways, for example getting killed by other players or killing mobs.
One more things is the fact that most of the time the first person that attack can "force" the other into pvp, for example if 2nd is killing a mob and you go in the range of 2nd attack and hit him with the right timing you force him in pvp, since is not something that you can turn on/off. this means that if you really want to start griefing others nothing will stop you.
Incorrect again. You dont get randomly flagged, you have to purposely flag yourself with a key combination (CTRL+F in A1) in order to hit him.
IF the sistem stay like this, since no test was done at the moment i hope they will see this and many other possible problem with the future test. There are a few other problems with this sistem too but at the moment im too lazy to talk about it.
My point is, there are a lot of good and cool ideas but many of them right now seems to easy to abuse and i hope the devs will address this asap since before making the world big they should make it work in a way that no one can abuse the mechanics in a easy way.
And this kind of sistem are 3 time more important than a cool character customization, so i hope that in the next devblog/stream/ecc. someone manages to talk a little bit about this kind of things
Considering that everything you provided so far was incorrect information, i do doubt you on the things you have stated here.
We dont have little information. This system works in other mmos.]
We dont have little information i agree. We have seen it tried and tested throughout more than a decade and its working just fine. Its just that Kardin fundamentally doesnt understand it
@Kardin
Maybe, before claiming a system to be faulty, do make sure you actually know the system rather than whatever half baked knowledge you have cooked up in your head.
Many here have been following the game for half a decade. Feel free to voice any concerns you might have. People will be happy to help.
First of all, it only takes one kill on a green to become corrupted.
Second of all, the corruption system is one of the worst systems for PvP.
Third of all, we can't get rid of the corruption system because all the PvEers and yourself would not be happy.
Thus, it matters not how it can be exploited because we can never remove the system. Therefore, the system must be kept in some form or other (The corruption system I mean). It is not our issue if there are issues the devs can't remedy because we never asked for the system - the devs dictated the system and the non pvp players want the system maintained.
No simply because if you have a turn on, turn off only pvp that requires the player to toggle it on to even be attacked or w/e - even if the risk worth it everyone just ends up keeping it off and never getting turned on even if there is a major incentive to do so.
Oh right that's exactly what happened to new world and a lot of the past mmorpgs - where people pvp'd in the betas and then just kept it off till endgame because there no point in wasting time till endgame.
players will always fine the optimal path witch often kills the ideas behind systems.
@Kardin
Maybe, before claiming a system to be faulty, do make sure you actually know the system rather than whatever half baked knowledge you have cooked up in your head.
My knowledge come from the wiki, since is the place were most of the info are written, i will not post the entire page of corruption here since will be too long, but i will leave the link:
one thing that i want to talk about since you are asking for how can we exploit that, is this:
1. A corrupt (red player) suffers penalties at four times[12] the rate of a non-combatant, and has a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on their current corruption score. This includes:[12][18]
Dropping weapons and gear.[12][21]
Any amount of corruption allows a player to drop equipped gear upon death. The higher the corruption the greater the chances.[64] – Steven Sharif
These dropped items may be looted by other players.[65]
Corrupt players respawn at random locations in the vicinity of their death, not at regular spawn points.[66]
Non-corrupt players always respawn at the closest active respawn point (to their death).[67]
Dampening (due to corruption) only affects PvP combat.[68]
Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained (not just at death).[16]
2. Experience debt will scale to approximately 2 or 3 percent of the total XP for a max level player. These numbers are subject to change based on testing.[69]
3. Players do not lose gold upon death, no matter their corruption level.[31]
At the moment, the plan is for players to not lose gold upon death, no matter their corruption level.[31] – Cody Peterson
So lets see how i can exploit this:
Since i will not base my congecture to the sistem of other games i will use only what we have about it right now.
Point 1: can be exploited super easy, simply let a friend kill you and pass you back the gear.
Or while you run (you need around 60 second not in combat and you can even log out while corrupted from what is written on the wiki) you should be able to take your gear off and then go jump from a cliff a dozen times, in that way you dont lose durability, you dont drop mats (since you should not have them in the first place) the only things you will lose is a little bit of exp but onestly is not a big deal even if is 10% every time you die.
Poin 2: is simple, does not matter. Exp can be farmed again and since we dont even know if you can go back in levels there is no point in talking about it
Point 3: well they said you will not be able to drop gold so...
And before you say "gear proficiency system" ----> A: We will not be using a proficiency system as described, but players will have passives available in their skill tree that will increase effectiveness of certain weapons. Becoming a master of swords will be something that is possible, just not in that particular manner.[6] – Sarah Flanagan [8 Feb, 2019]
One more thing, I as a PVE player, hate the corruption system as it is, and would prefer to have it completley gone
Many here have been following the game for half a decade. Feel free to voice any concerns you might have. People will be happy to help.
It seems you only read the last post, because i made this discussion and voiced my concern about exploit/troll/griefing/mega guilds/zergs and more and the only answer i got was "rally the server and fight back", well that answer sucks, for this things should be implended a system from the devs and such behavior should not be permitted in the first place for a game to stay healty, but for what i see im the only one that even tried to think about a solution even if was a simple and stupid one. So no, people don't even want to read what I've written so far let alone help.
First of all, it only takes one kill on a green to become corrupted.
Second of all, the corruption system is one of the worst systems for PvP.
Third of all, we can't get rid of the corruption system because all the PvEers and yourself would not be happy.
Thus, it matters not how it can be exploited because we can never remove the system. Therefore, the system must be kept in some form or other (The corruption system I mean). It is not our issue if there are issues the devs can't remedy because we never asked for the system - the devs dictated the system and the non pvp players want the system maintained.
No simply because if you have a turn on, turn off only pvp that requires the player to toggle it on to even be attacked or w/e - even if the risk worth it everyone just ends up keeping it off and never getting turned on even if there is a major incentive to do so.
Oh right that's exactly what happened to new world and a lot of the past mmorpgs - where people pvp'd in the betas and then just kept it off till endgame because there no point in wasting time till endgame.
players will always fine the optimal path witch often kills the ideas behind systems.
Well but now you are going against the "player driven world" are you not? Should i not be able to decide what to do and how i want to play the game? Were is now the freedom of choice a few post back we all were talking about? Now you are forcing pve player to do pvp, you are now forcing people obsessed with being efficient in not being efficient and so on.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Kardin
Maybe, before claiming a system to be faulty, do make sure you actually know the system rather than whatever half baked knowledge you have cooked up in your head.
My knowledge come from the wiki, since is the place were most of the info are written, i will not post the entire page of corruption here since will be too long, but i will leave the link:
one thing that i want to talk about since you are asking for how can we exploit that, is this:
1. A corrupt (red player) suffers penalties at four times[12] the rate of a non-combatant, and has a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on their current corruption score. This includes:[12][18]
Dropping weapons and gear.[12][21]
Any amount of corruption allows a player to drop equipped gear upon death. The higher the corruption the greater the chances.[64] – Steven Sharif
These dropped items may be looted by other players.[65]
Corrupt players respawn at random locations in the vicinity of their death, not at regular spawn points.[66]
Non-corrupt players always respawn at the closest active respawn point (to their death).[67]
Dampening (due to corruption) only affects PvP combat.[68]
Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained (not just at death).[16]
2. Experience debt will scale to approximately 2 or 3 percent of the total XP for a max level player. These numbers are subject to change based on testing.[69]
3. Players do not lose gold upon death, no matter their corruption level.[31]
At the moment, the plan is for players to not lose gold upon death, no matter their corruption level.[31] – Cody Peterson
So lets see how i can exploit this:
Since i will not base my congecture to the sistem of other games i will use only what we have about it right now.
Point 1: can be exploited super easy, simply let a friend kill you and pass you back the gear.
Or while you run (you need around 60 second not in combat and you can even log out while corrupted from what is written on the wiki) you should be able to take your gear off and then go jump from a cliff a dozen times, in that way you dont lose durability, you dont drop mats (since you should not have them in the first place) the only things you will lose is a little bit of exp but onestly is not a big deal even if is 10% every time you die.
Poin 2: is simple, does not matter. Exp can be farmed again and since we dont even know if you can go back in levels there is no point in talking about it
Point 3: well they said you will not be able to drop gold so...
And before you say "gear proficiency system" ----> A: We will not be using a proficiency system as described, but players will have passives available in their skill tree that will increase effectiveness of certain weapons. Becoming a master of swords will be something that is possible, just not in that particular manner.[6] – Sarah Flanagan [8 Feb, 2019]
One more thing, I as a PVE player, hate the corruption system as it is, and would prefer to have it completley gone
Many here have been following the game for half a decade. Feel free to voice any concerns you might have. People will be happy to help.
It seems you only read the last post, because i made this discussion and voiced my concern about exploit/troll/griefing/mega guilds/zergs and more and the only answer i got was "rally the server and fight back", well that answer sucks, for this things should be implended a system from the devs and such behavior should not be permitted in the first place for a game to stay healty, but for what i see im the only one that even tried to think about a solution even if was a simple and stupid one. So no, people don't even want to read what I've written so far let alone help.
Point 1: you still suffer the death penalty and have to work off the negative exp, which debuffs you. There is also a kill tally you gain as you kill players and doesn't go away when you lose corruption. The higher your kill tally, the more corruption you get each kill.
Point 2: You are not everyone. There are plenty of people who have better things to do then farm of some negative exp all day. Time you spend farming off negative exp is also time you are not killing people.
Point 3: isn't a point and i'm not sure what you are implying.
The point of the system is not to stop pvp, it's to curve behavior away from the FFA KOS behavior you see in games like Atlas. There are other games with similar systems if you want some recommendations.
Wow. The amount of people claiming a simple pvp invasion is griefing seem to be too numerous. Why would you consider an invasion to steal a world boss to be griefing exactly? Griefing would be a whole raid stood at the access point not letting anyone attack said boss. Not a second raid turning up and invading said boss to take said boss.
theoreticly all that is needed is to kill the healers and tank to wipe a raid. specialy the harder the boss is to beat. from that point out even a small goupe of maybe 3 peoples could if stayed hidden and waiting for the best moment (boss atack pattern) to strike and so causeing the boss to wipe the raid or reset.
maybe there is something up on the development sleve like a hard quest line to do that gives a item to create a protecting area around the bossfight for some time, so that those willing to go the extra mile to have a more chilled bossfight without worrys can do so and those who doesnt care can do it without or haveing guards that will keep others from entering the fight upfront. but it will be important to gather and sneakly go into the fight without globaly adress it so that the chance someon else outside the raid has knowlegde about the time and place of the raid.
We were all set to have no fast travel, then we got the node diaries and news that Scientific Node will have a fast travel. Then out of the blue the Family Summons system was announced. All you need is 8 people in a group who are all part of a different family. Even if there was a long cooldown shared between all family members, a group of 8 could rapidly deploy 16 vs 8 when required.
jep node teleport in the area of controll if the node itself is at metropole level which only can happen to 5 nodes simultaniously. and then if a 2nd scientific metropole exist theres zepelin travel between them as well. famalie summon shure could be something if the peoples are actualy online. but not at all times will every momber of a family be online.
and cuase of possebilitys to get attacked in raids i think the maroity of raids will be ouitside of the primetime to reduce the possebilitys of an invasion. if you go in primetime then simply prepaire for it maybe hire protection from a guild that specializes in that matter that consist more players that are interestet into pvp than pve content. shure you may have to pay them or share some of the loot with them.
but the concept of ashes is that it will be a open world with as much freedom as possible kinda like in the medival area inside towns you were partly protected bout outside it was pure luck.
the corruption system is one of the worst systems for PvP.
The corruption system Ashes is using is not one of the worst systems for PvP, not even close. Flagging or opt-in PvP (like New World's) is worse, no PKing at all is worse and, in my opinion, free PKing with no or low penalties for the killer is also worse, no matter if loot gets dropped or not.
Don't get me wrong, I played a lot of MMOs with available PvP/PKing and they were usually fun, but the lack of punishment for PKing turned all of these games into gankfests and zergfests, no exceptions. Hell, my main game nowadays is Rust and it's pretty hardcore in this context and I enjoy it, but not in an MMORPG.
Third of all, we can't get rid of the corruption system because all the PvEers and yourself would not be happy.
The reason the corruption system exists is not because of PvE players or carebears. The reason it exists is because the owner of the game wants open world PvP to have risk vs. reward for both the aggressor and the "victim". As a matter of fact, every PvE player will need to turn into a PvP player at some point and vice-versa in Ashes. Last but not least, I would much rather Ashes launches with a very anti-PKing system (the current corruption system) but adds more PK friendly mechanics down the road if the community asks for it.
Thus, it matters not how it can be exploited because we can never remove the system. Therefore, the system must be kept in some form or other (The corruption system I mean). It is not our issue if there are issues the devs can't remedy because we never asked for the system - the devs dictated the system and the non pvp players want the system maintained.
Sorry, but who's we? Are you talking about us, PvP players? Or are you talking about us, players who take games seriously? Maybe you're talking about us, people who started playing MMORPGs in the late 90s? Or perhaps you're talking about us, people who like to drink beer? Whichever the case may be, if you're talking for any of the groups above, respectfully, please remove me from "we" because you don't represent "us".
This sort of elitism is so pointless, trying to argue that all PvP players hate the corruption system or all "non-PvP players", whatever that means, love the corruption system is ludicrous. I wonder if an MMORPG can survive for many years and with a big player base without the "non-PvP players", because we all know that many games in this genre survived without the "PvP players". Why not make a game that's quite PvP focused but doesn't have free PKing? Is it so hard to cope with that?
I'm pretty sure that from the start of this project it was clear that this was going to be a PvP (or PvX) game and PKing wouldn't be encouraged. Carebears who cry about the PvP in Ashes are just as wrong as the PvP elitists who cry about the lack of PvP.
Saying something is "dictated by the devs" is beyond ignorant, it's plain stupid. With few exceptions, and even fewer in the MMORPG genre, every game is dictated by its developers, not by its community. We're lucky that, at least up until now, the person who dictates everything in Ashes is a fucking godsent and we wouldn't have this project in the first place if it wasn't for him.
Last but not least, if any system can be exploited, it should be in everyone's interest to help point it out and help Intrepid fix it, unless you're a selfish prick who wants to abuse it.
My point is, there are a lot of good and cool ideas but many of them right now seems to easy to abuse
As @Warth pointed out you're incorrect in many, if not all, of your premises. However, if you read this whole page and still see ways to abuse the corruption system, I'd be very interested in hearing how. In my point of view and experience with this system in other games, this system is usually very punishing on people who go red and quite hard to abuse.
No TP + Multiple outdoor content (PvE) will spread players across the world.
So, it'll be hard to camp or "grief". But, for sure, you'll have to dedicate 5-8 players in your raid/group only to scout and PvP defense while doing a world boss.
What's the issue ? It's more like an additional mechanic during a boss encounter.
can agree to that
if i recall 480 km2 (square kilometers) is the approximate world size at launch as the wiki sais and there will only be a maximum of 10'000 players per server so at peaktimes maybe 6'000 players will be simultanously online on the server
if 10'000 online that means around 21 players per 1 km2
if 6'000 online only around 12.5 players per 1 km2
i dont see much of a problem here if you play outside of the primetime so during the week after midnight and early morning there might only be 1'000 players online so only 2 players per 1 km2 but even then many will be in certain ares like nodecenters so a big chunk of the map will be empty.
but since dungeons are linked to nodestates and so changes from time to time whenever a new dungeon opens that will be a hotspot cuase players will travel there to beat the dungeon and get the new stuff that tis dungeon may bring so at start many pvpler problably will camp there but that leaves the other dungeon un occupied.
My point is, there are a lot of good and cool ideas but many of them right now seems to easy to abuse
As @Warth pointed out you're incorrect in many, if not all, of your premises. However, if you read this whole page and still see ways to abuse the corruption system, I'd be very interested in hearing how. In my point of view and experience with this system in other games, this system is usually very punishing on people who go red and quite hard to abuse.
Well, i already write a few examples but i will copy them here:
Point 1: can be exploited super easy, simply let a friend kill you and pass you back the gear.
Or while you run (you need around 60 second not in combat and you can even log out while corrupted from what is written on the wiki) you should be able to take your gear off and then go jump from a cliff a dozen times, in that way you dont lose durability, you dont drop mats (since you should not have them in the first place) the only things you will lose is a little bit of exp but onestly is not a big deal even if is 10% every time you die.
Poin 2: is simple, does not matter. Exp can be farmed again and since we dont even know if you can go back in levels there is no point in talking about it
Then main point is that there are actually no downside in doing pk especially if you cant go back with levels, there are a lot of information that we dont know yet and the numebers of this penalty are not pubblic yet, at the moment the only downside that you cant avoid is a loss of around 3% exp at max level (wiki info) but can still be offset with a little bit of farm after you clense your corruption.
BUT if we dont have the actual number behind everythings is difficoult to even talk about "the best way to exploit this" but non the less it can be done [FOR NOW]
I disagree with most of what you wrote but these two quotes are priceless. Says more about you both than you realise. You actually putting words into my posts which were never meant to be there. I just can't get my head into your head spaces. lol.
Point 1: can be exploited super easy, simply let a friend kill you and pass you back the gear.
Or while you run (you need around 60 second not in combat and you can even log out while corrupted from what is written on the wiki) you should be able to take your gear off and then go jump from a cliff a dozen times, in that way you dont lose durability, you dont drop mats (since you should not have them in the first place) the only things you will lose is a little bit of exp but onestly is not a big deal even if is 10% every time you die.
Poin 2: is simple, does not matter. Exp can be farmed again and since we dont even know if you can go back in levels there is no point in talking about it
Then main point is that there are actually no downside in doing pk especially if you cant go back with levels, there are a lot of information that we dont know yet and the numebers of this penalty are not pubblic yet, at the moment the only downside that you cant avoid is a loss of around 3% exp at max level (wiki info) but can still be offset with a little bit of farm after you clense your corruption.
BUT if we dont have the actual number behind everythings is difficoult to even talk about "the best way to exploit this" but non the less it can be done [FOR NOW]
Beware of the lineage players. They would rather lead you down a garden path than admit the system is a subpar system.
Point 1 is a very valid point, and, more to the point, it can't be remedied. Some people used to say that killing a corrupted player should turn you corrupted to deal with this point but naturally cooler heads prevailed. You could kill a friend but then the devs moved corruption from the Military Node and made corruption free from nodes. This means that 'friends' just need to protect the corrupted player long enough for the corrupted player to kill enough PvE mobs to go straight.
Point 2 is also remedied by my point above.
The main problem remains that in an open world scenario we have to do a dance. That is, one player flags purple by hitting another player, and, that player who was hit must then fight at a disadvantage dependent on how much health was lost in the instigating attack. Some people love to fight with a handicap and those people will always go corrupted. Those people would also always flag purple when struck first. The rest of the players will just die because they don't want to fight with a handicap and would not start a fight either.
Hahhahh. OP, all your "exploits" have been explained in other corruption topics. How about we get back on the original topic of this thread and then you can read other corruption posts elsewhere?
The problem has happened because other people said the thread topic would be remedied by the corruption system when it won't be because the topic of thread is not griefing in the first place.
That is the best line I have seen on these boards for Ages! I truly hope that you are quoted forever on that one, because it's true. We are a bunch of hardened, experienced, remorseless old farts with the knowledge and patience to achieve our goals.
I had a Dark Elf Archer but by 2008 I'd found Age of Conan and I preferred the Ranger from Age of Conan. I felt C4 and C5 were the epitome of L2 so the anti climax afterwards made my attention drift. I was lucky to test Age of Conan a few months before the game launched. I realise Age of Conan has a bad rap but the bloody effects really gripped me. I'm more of a graphical junky than not which is why I left EQ for EQ2 and L2 for AoC (Age of Conan) and why I promoted UE5 for Ashes. I was a tad disappointed that the devs for Ashes didn't go for Dark Elf and instead massacred Wood Elf. However, I'm digressing a lot.
Comments
I think i know where your line of thought stems from.
Non-Combatants get the full death penalty (however high this is)
Combatants love half of it.
Corrupted lose 4x the amount a Non-Combatant does.
So it would be the combatant that loses up to 12,5%, a Non-Combatant 25% and a Corrupted 100%.
Any higher than that wouldn't make much sense as how is a Corrupted supposed to lose more than 100%.
Personally, i think it shouldnt be any lower than this either.
The reason we count the 'Non-Combatant' penalty as the 'base 100%' is specifically because if you die in any OTHER way this is also your loss amount, which may be important to players under different circumstances.
So this is, afaik, the way Intrepid uses the terms, purposely. If you died in combat to another player while in Combatant state, you lose half as much as you'd lose if killed by a mob or fall damage or whatever else.
there are 3 state, green Non-Combatant, purple Combatant and red Corrupted.
To become corrupted you need to do X kills (3 maybe?) on a green player, that means if you attack that player and he goes afk you'll get the first strike. Now you can lose the corruption debuff in a few ways, for example getting killed by other players or killing mobs.
If you think about it, as is it right now is super exploitable in at least 3 way (i will not tell them here).
One more things is the fact that most of the time the first person that attack can "force" the other into pvp, for example if 2nd is killing a mob and you go in the range of 2nd attack and hit him with the right timing you force him in pvp, since is not something that you can turn on/off.
this means that if you really want to start griefing others nothing will stop you.
IF the sistem stay like this, since no test was done at the moment i hope they will see this and many other possible problem with the future test.
There are a few other problems with this sistem too but at the moment im too lazy to talk about it.
My point is, there are a lot of good and cool ideas but many of them right now seems to easy to abuse and i hope the devs will address this asap since before making the world big they should make it work in a way that no one can abuse the mechanics in a easy way.
And this kind of sistem are 3 time more important than a cool character customization, so i hope that in the next devblog/stream/ecc. someone manages to talk a little bit about this kind of things
Yes, we know. Lots of very common perspectives on what some people consider obvious flaws.
But in the end, we're waiting.
There's lots of discussions about this system. Lotttssss of them. They all end the same way. This specific discussion could probably focus on 'how disrupting a world boss might result in players escaping without corruption if the boss is strong'.
Raids might need extra tanks just to handle what happens when their other Tanks or healers get CC'ed at critical moments. That might be the entire point.
Second of all, the corruption system is one of the worst systems for PvP.
Third of all, we can't get rid of the corruption system because all the PvEers and yourself would not be happy.
Thus, it matters not how it can be exploited because we can never remove the system. Therefore, the system must be kept in some form or other (The corruption system I mean). It is not our issue if there are issues the devs can't remedy because we never asked for the system - the devs dictated the system and the non pvp players want the system maintained.
We dont have little information. This system works in other mmos.
You become corrupted upon killing one green player.
If you are green, someone running into your attack isn't going to make you purple. You have to target and force attack a player to be flagged for pvp.
We can probably answer your other questions if you ask them.
incorrect, you go corrupted after the first kill.
Incorrect again. You dont get randomly flagged, you have to purposely flag yourself with a key combination (CTRL+F in A1) in order to hit him.
Considering that everything you provided so far was incorrect information, i do doubt you on the things you have stated here.
Do tell them here please, now im curious in what other ways you dont understand the proposed system.
We dont have little information i agree. We have seen it tried and tested throughout more than a decade and its working just fine. Its just that Kardin fundamentally doesnt understand it
@Kardin
Maybe, before claiming a system to be faulty, do make sure you actually know the system rather than whatever half baked knowledge you have cooked up in your head.
Many here have been following the game for half a decade. Feel free to voice any concerns you might have. People will be happy to help.
No simply because if you have a turn on, turn off only pvp that requires the player to toggle it on to even be attacked or w/e - even if the risk worth it everyone just ends up keeping it off and never getting turned on even if there is a major incentive to do so.
Oh right that's exactly what happened to new world and a lot of the past mmorpgs - where people pvp'd in the betas and then just kept it off till endgame because there no point in wasting time till endgame.
players will always fine the optimal path witch often kills the ideas behind systems.
My knowledge come from the wiki, since is the place were most of the info are written, i will not post the entire page of corruption here since will be too long, but i will leave the link:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption
one thing that i want to talk about since you are asking for how can we exploit that, is this:
1. A corrupt (red player) suffers penalties at four times[12] the rate of a non-combatant, and has a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on their current corruption score. This includes:[12][18]
Dropping weapons and gear.[12][21]
Any amount of corruption allows a player to drop equipped gear upon death. The higher the corruption the greater the chances.[64] – Steven Sharif
These dropped items may be looted by other players.[65]
Corrupt players respawn at random locations in the vicinity of their death, not at regular spawn points.[66]
Non-corrupt players always respawn at the closest active respawn point (to their death).[67]
Dampening (due to corruption) only affects PvP combat.[68]
Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained (not just at death).[16]
2. Experience debt will scale to approximately 2 or 3 percent of the total XP for a max level player. These numbers are subject to change based on testing.[69]
3. Players do not lose gold upon death, no matter their corruption level.[31]
At the moment, the plan is for players to not lose gold upon death, no matter their corruption level.[31] – Cody Peterson
So lets see how i can exploit this:
Since i will not base my congecture to the sistem of other games i will use only what we have about it right now.
Point 1: can be exploited super easy, simply let a friend kill you and pass you back the gear.
Or while you run (you need around 60 second not in combat and you can even log out while corrupted from what is written on the wiki) you should be able to take your gear off and then go jump from a cliff a dozen times, in that way you dont lose durability, you dont drop mats (since you should not have them in the first place) the only things you will lose is a little bit of exp but onestly is not a big deal even if is 10% every time you die.
Poin 2: is simple, does not matter. Exp can be farmed again and since we dont even know if you can go back in levels there is no point in talking about it
Point 3: well they said you will not be able to drop gold so...
And before you say "gear proficiency system" ----> A: We will not be using a proficiency system as described, but players will have passives available in their skill tree that will increase effectiveness of certain weapons. Becoming a master of swords will be something that is possible, just not in that particular manner.[6] – Sarah Flanagan [8 Feb, 2019]
One more thing, I as a PVE player, hate the corruption system as it is, and would prefer to have it completley gone
It seems you only read the last post, because i made this discussion and voiced my concern about exploit/troll/griefing/mega guilds/zergs and more and the only answer i got was "rally the server and fight back", well that answer sucks, for this things should be implended a system from the devs and such behavior should not be permitted in the first place for a game to stay healty, but for what i see im the only one that even tried to think about a solution even if was a simple and stupid one. So no, people don't even want to read what I've written so far let alone help.
Well but now you are going against the "player driven world" are you not? Should i not be able to decide what to do and how i want to play the game? Were is now the freedom of choice a few post back we all were talking about? Now you are forcing pve player to do pvp, you are now forcing people obsessed with being efficient in not being efficient and so on.
Point 1: you still suffer the death penalty and have to work off the negative exp, which debuffs you. There is also a kill tally you gain as you kill players and doesn't go away when you lose corruption. The higher your kill tally, the more corruption you get each kill.
Point 2: You are not everyone. There are plenty of people who have better things to do then farm of some negative exp all day. Time you spend farming off negative exp is also time you are not killing people.
Point 3: isn't a point and i'm not sure what you are implying.
The point of the system is not to stop pvp, it's to curve behavior away from the FFA KOS behavior you see in games like Atlas. There are other games with similar systems if you want some recommendations.
theoreticly all that is needed is to kill the healers and tank to wipe a raid. specialy the harder the boss is to beat. from that point out even a small goupe of maybe 3 peoples could if stayed hidden and waiting for the best moment (boss atack pattern) to strike and so causeing the boss to wipe the raid or reset.
maybe there is something up on the development sleve like a hard quest line to do that gives a item to create a protecting area around the bossfight for some time, so that those willing to go the extra mile to have a more chilled bossfight without worrys can do so and those who doesnt care can do it without or haveing guards that will keep others from entering the fight upfront. but it will be important to gather and sneakly go into the fight without globaly adress it so that the chance someon else outside the raid has knowlegde about the time and place of the raid.
jep node teleport in the area of controll if the node itself is at metropole level which only can happen to 5 nodes simultaniously. and then if a 2nd scientific metropole exist theres zepelin travel between them as well. famalie summon shure could be something if the peoples are actualy online. but not at all times will every momber of a family be online.
and cuase of possebilitys to get attacked in raids i think the maroity of raids will be ouitside of the primetime to reduce the possebilitys of an invasion. if you go in primetime then simply prepaire for it maybe hire protection from a guild that specializes in that matter that consist more players that are interestet into pvp than pve content. shure you may have to pay them or share some of the loot with them.
but the concept of ashes is that it will be a open world with as much freedom as possible kinda like in the medival area inside towns you were partly protected bout outside it was pure luck.
The corruption system Ashes is using is not one of the worst systems for PvP, not even close. Flagging or opt-in PvP (like New World's) is worse, no PKing at all is worse and, in my opinion, free PKing with no or low penalties for the killer is also worse, no matter if loot gets dropped or not.
Don't get me wrong, I played a lot of MMOs with available PvP/PKing and they were usually fun, but the lack of punishment for PKing turned all of these games into gankfests and zergfests, no exceptions. Hell, my main game nowadays is Rust and it's pretty hardcore in this context and I enjoy it, but not in an MMORPG.
The reason the corruption system exists is not because of PvE players or carebears. The reason it exists is because the owner of the game wants open world PvP to have risk vs. reward for both the aggressor and the "victim". As a matter of fact, every PvE player will need to turn into a PvP player at some point and vice-versa in Ashes. Last but not least, I would much rather Ashes launches with a very anti-PKing system (the current corruption system) but adds more PK friendly mechanics down the road if the community asks for it.
Sorry, but who's we? Are you talking about us, PvP players? Or are you talking about us, players who take games seriously? Maybe you're talking about us, people who started playing MMORPGs in the late 90s? Or perhaps you're talking about us, people who like to drink beer? Whichever the case may be, if you're talking for any of the groups above, respectfully, please remove me from "we" because you don't represent "us".
This sort of elitism is so pointless, trying to argue that all PvP players hate the corruption system or all "non-PvP players", whatever that means, love the corruption system is ludicrous. I wonder if an MMORPG can survive for many years and with a big player base without the "non-PvP players", because we all know that many games in this genre survived without the "PvP players". Why not make a game that's quite PvP focused but doesn't have free PKing? Is it so hard to cope with that?
I'm pretty sure that from the start of this project it was clear that this was going to be a PvP (or PvX) game and PKing wouldn't be encouraged. Carebears who cry about the PvP in Ashes are just as wrong as the PvP elitists who cry about the lack of PvP.
Saying something is "dictated by the devs" is beyond ignorant, it's plain stupid. With few exceptions, and even fewer in the MMORPG genre, every game is dictated by its developers, not by its community. We're lucky that, at least up until now, the person who dictates everything in Ashes is a fucking godsent and we wouldn't have this project in the first place if it wasn't for him.
Last but not least, if any system can be exploited, it should be in everyone's interest to help point it out and help Intrepid fix it, unless you're a selfish prick who wants to abuse it.
As @Warth pointed out you're incorrect in many, if not all, of your premises. However, if you read this whole page and still see ways to abuse the corruption system, I'd be very interested in hearing how. In my point of view and experience with this system in other games, this system is usually very punishing on people who go red and quite hard to abuse.
i know you mean Interpid Studios when u writhe IS. but whenever i read it i understand first IS from Islamic State terror organization.
can agree to that
if i recall 480 km2 (square kilometers) is the approximate world size at launch as the wiki sais and there will only be a maximum of 10'000 players per server so at peaktimes maybe 6'000 players will be simultanously online on the server
if 10'000 online that means around 21 players per 1 km2
if 6'000 online only around 12.5 players per 1 km2
i dont see much of a problem here if you play outside of the primetime so during the week after midnight and early morning there might only be 1'000 players online so only 2 players per 1 km2 but even then many will be in certain ares like nodecenters so a big chunk of the map will be empty.
but since dungeons are linked to nodestates and so changes from time to time whenever a new dungeon opens that will be a hotspot cuase players will travel there to beat the dungeon and get the new stuff that tis dungeon may bring so at start many pvpler problably will camp there but that leaves the other dungeon un occupied.
Well, i already write a few examples but i will copy them here:
Point 1: can be exploited super easy, simply let a friend kill you and pass you back the gear.
Or while you run (you need around 60 second not in combat and you can even log out while corrupted from what is written on the wiki) you should be able to take your gear off and then go jump from a cliff a dozen times, in that way you dont lose durability, you dont drop mats (since you should not have them in the first place) the only things you will lose is a little bit of exp but onestly is not a big deal even if is 10% every time you die.
Poin 2: is simple, does not matter. Exp can be farmed again and since we dont even know if you can go back in levels there is no point in talking about it
Then main point is that there are actually no downside in doing pk especially if you cant go back with levels, there are a lot of information that we dont know yet and the numebers of this penalty are not pubblic yet, at the moment the only downside that you cant avoid is a loss of around 3% exp at max level (wiki info) but can still be offset with a little bit of farm after you clense your corruption.
BUT if we dont have the actual number behind everythings is difficoult to even talk about "the best way to exploit this" but non the less it can be done [FOR NOW]
I disagree with most of what you wrote but these two quotes are priceless. Says more about you both than you realise. You actually putting words into my posts which were never meant to be there. I just can't get my head into your head spaces. lol.
Beware of the lineage players. They would rather lead you down a garden path than admit the system is a subpar system.
Point 1 is a very valid point, and, more to the point, it can't be remedied. Some people used to say that killing a corrupted player should turn you corrupted to deal with this point but naturally cooler heads prevailed. You could kill a friend but then the devs moved corruption from the Military Node and made corruption free from nodes. This means that 'friends' just need to protect the corrupted player long enough for the corrupted player to kill enough PvE mobs to go straight.
Point 2 is also remedied by my point above.
The main problem remains that in an open world scenario we have to do a dance. That is, one player flags purple by hitting another player, and, that player who was hit must then fight at a disadvantage dependent on how much health was lost in the instigating attack. Some people love to fight with a handicap and those people will always go corrupted. Those people would also always flag purple when struck first. The rest of the players will just die because they don't want to fight with a handicap and would not start a fight either.
Why do you doubt us?
That is the best line I have seen on these boards for Ages! I truly hope that you are quoted forever on that one, because it's true. We are a bunch of hardened, experienced, remorseless old farts with the knowledge and patience to achieve our goals.