For that particular premise I could agree then that perceptive skill could be better fostered without the data.
But, I can't automatically say im in favor of having a greater reward for those who have naturally better perceptive capabilities, than those who don't, because of the implications that the other types of game skills are reliant upon those perceptive capabilities, that not all people may have.
The lack of perceptive skill in that area could deny access to information certain players who could better leverage that information than someone else, but be denied that skill-expression due to the difference in perceptive abilities. My personal preference for skill-checks, is in player decision-making. Based on this I can't say I would want the skill-check on perceptive ability to be so large that only a very small percentage of players could properly be tested on their decision making skills, which I personally would prefer to have at the forefront. This is preference so im not saying you are wrong, just that I disagree.
- regardless of how we feel about that particular aspect- whether that particular premise alone, in favor of providing players with data, is enough to outweigh the others outlined ealier, is another issue.
I don't think the combat will be like a Fighting game lol.
If you're working in a large group and engaging in combat there is necessarily a perception component to it though that is engaging. It's the one place perception and proper reaction/ response should be rewarded, if anywhere in the game.
If you want to reward decision-making, reward strategy and tactics in group combat, and in civ-building.
I was expecting that response and had a thought on that myself that I edited in, but you had already responded. I added this portion if youd like to go re-read.
That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. I do think perceptive skill, especially situational awareness, should be rewarded. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game.
I was expecting that response and had a thought on that myself that I edited in, but you had already responded. I added this portion if youd like to go re-read.
That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game.
I don't know what other areas of the game you're referring to.
Combat moves are combat moves.
And Not even fighting games require frame perfect inputs or have single frame windows.
We were talking about how data helps further reward good decision making skill. Then about how people should be tested in gathering such data. You suggested it should be a perceptive skill-test. I said that if this were the case it would be a barrier to entry for those that could potentially have better decision making skills, because of the denial of data access. The data is used to make better decsions, which i what i was referring to by "other areas of the game" as in, other skill-checks that the data usage is intertwined with.
So even though "Combat moves are combat moves." Data about your combat move properties is essential to optimize your combat move decision making, which is a decision making skill-check.
You can have both perceptive skill-checks and decsion making skill-checks, without having to water down the decision making aspect when you make certain decision making related factors tied to perceptive skill (such as data acquisition).
I was expecting that response and had a thought on that myself that I edited in, but you had already responded. I added this portion if youd like to go re-read.
That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game.
I don't know what other areas of the game you're referring to.
Combat moves are combat moves.
Not even fighting games require frame perfect inputs or have single frame windows.
I don't know if anyone actually needs to hear this, but this is, of course, not true.
They've recently put a lot of work into reducing the number of these required to play effectively, but they're still there.
We were talking about how data helps further reward good decision making skill. Then about how people should be tested in gathering such data. You suggested it should be a perceptive skill-test. I said that if this were the case it would be a barrier to entry for those that could potentially have better decision making skills, because of the denial of data access. The data is used to make better decsions, which i what i was referring to by "other areas of the game" as in, other skill-checks that the data usage is intertwined with.
You can have both perceptive skill-checks and decsion making skill-checks, without having to water down the decision making aspect when you make certain decision making related factors tied to perceptive skill (such as data acquisition).
If a player can't fight and doesn't understand combat then they're not fit to lead grounded, in-field, direct combat. Simple as that.
I was expecting that response and had a thought on that myself that I edited in, but you had already responded. I added this portion if youd like to go re-read.
That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game.
I don't know what other areas of the game you're referring to.
Combat moves are combat moves.
Not even fighting games require frame perfect inputs or have single frame windows.
I don't know if anyone actually needs to hear this, but this is, of course, not true.
They've recently put a lot of work into reducing the number of these required to play effectively, but they're still there.
I expect to see more of them in Ashes, though.
Pretty sure inputs queue if entered near the end of one's own animation, but anyway that sort of frame perfect input is much less burdensome and incredibly repetitious and mechanical. Not an issue.
If a player can't fight and doesn't understand combat then they're not fit to lead combat. Simple as that.
Im not sure where the disconnect happened but that has nothing to do with what I said. Nothing I said implied you shouldn't be required to understand combat.
Even though "Combat moves are combat moves", data about your combat move properties is essential to optimize your combat move decision making, which is a decision making skill-check.
That is just as much of combat mastery as perceiving the properties of your moves. As I said, i simply am willing to make a small sacrifice in the perceptive based skill-check, to further reward good combat decision making through making data acquisition more accessible. This does not mean you can't also have perceptive based skill-checks, simply that they shouldn't be tied to factors essential for testing your decision making skills.
Just ask people you're working with and practice with them.
Good point. I tend to be more self-reliant, but the social aspect is an important part of an mmo. I can tend to have trust issues when relying on other people's input though.
Just ask people you're working with and practice with them.
Good point. I tend to be more self-reliant, but the social aspect is an important part of an mmo. I can tend to have trust issues when relying on other people's input though.
When someone says something seems to work a certain way it's easier to look for and ask others about though.
Just ask people you're working with and practice with them.
Good point. I tend to be more self-reliant, but the social aspect is an important part of an mmo. I can tend to have trust issues when relying on other people's input though.
When someone says something seems to work a certain way it's easier to look for and ask others about though.
Generally speaking, if you are doing this, you are asking someone that knows the answer already.
I agree, this easier to ask someone that knows the answer to a question than it is to figure it out for yourself, but someone, at some point in time, needs to be the first to figure it out.
If you are the first to want the answer to a thing, there isnt anyone to ask that can give you an answer.
What is there to be gained by trying to cut players off from a diagnostic tool like damage meters? Figuring out how we stack in our performance compared to other players helps us learn and improve. Meters are usually a more direct and a much less time-intensive means of gauging our performance than re-watching recordings of our play or reading through combat logs.
Both in my job and on gaming, I'm one of the people that is among the first to ask those questions, and so I do a lot of figuring things out for myself.
When I'm playing an MMO, guess what tool I use to figure things out, so that when others ask me about them I am able to answer their question.
DPS meters are fine but if you don't want to add them then allow for 3rd party mods to track damage. it's as shrimple as that
It won't be allow, it is stated and really really low chance to change.
And... it is not so bad, because if one kind of third party is allowed, what about others ?
But... many game don't allow this, and... those many game still have a tracker on a form or another.
This is why nooani, but also others (as i) try to explain the benefits of a tracker, being opt-in thru guild perk, with some specific way to be used as hidden during fight (to avoid people losing time, and focus watching their DPS for their ego while fight is going for example).
As i view this idea :
Most toxic behaviour risk disappear. (toxicity coming mostly when 2 kind of mentality are in same group of player... not case here, you chose the guild fitting your mentality), It also avoid to track people who don't want/don't care (it is a problem in FFXIV... ). And for tracker enjoyers, it will give more accurate data (third party can easily have a little variation due to indirect data gathering... not a big one, but 100% accuracy is better than 99%) And it would provide another data for IS to see how the players are playing the game. (more kind of information to see it is always better) Because tracker users vs non users, is not the same thing as people doing high end PvE and those not ^^".
I wonder if theorycrafters in general are going to be hated by players in general or just the vocal forum minority of "hardcore" purists
Definitely only by the minority. The majority couldn't give fewer fucks about the trackers. And if they were told directly "trackers will help make the guides that you will use" - they'd all be for it.
I dislike dps meters alot. Especially if its displayed to others in a party. First of all if there is a dps meter, a heal or buff meter would be equally important to have. Also this pushes players into meta builds more to get max dps + prefering raw damage numbers over being a utility player or supporting in other means then doing damage. But iam more of a pvp/pk player myselve and never got into serious raiding, maybe iam wrong and it is really needed to weed out the weak so to say ? It just feels wrong to funnel down on numbers when fighting in a world full of grahpics and animations to base gameplay on.
I wonder if theorycrafters in general are going to be hated by players in general or just the vocal forum minority of "hardcore" purists
Think of philosophers of real life. The theorycrafters of real life.
They live in their own world. They meta-game the fuck out of it.
This is basically contrary to the point of the game; but if people want to look at the info and options the game has provided and strategize, think up tactics, et cetera. That's fine with me.
Reducing everything to numbers then showing those numbers on screen is immersion breaking though
(yes immersion this is an objective definition) and mood/ atmosphere breaking (basically objective because it's a medieval fantasy world you're exploring and struggling in; any opinion otherwise is number compulsives demanding they get their fix).
Having floating numbers and meta-gaming BS rather than immersive gaming: is complete BS.
Maybe because devs listen to those that don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and want to actively push out certain demographics and genre enjoyers out of their game?
MMO just means massively multiplayer online. Add in role-playing game and you technically can do almost anything with the genre.
Yet most examples of an MMORPG seem to do everything to mitigate the definition of its own genre, rather than leaning hard into it and LEADING in a direction of real growth rather than real confinement or complete ungrounding.
MMORPGs are clowns.
If I can think of ways of expanding the game, gameplay, and classes; you're in hot water.
You can say what I say is shit, but it's because I'm right LMAO
Most of my suggestions aren't for Ashes of Creation they're for an MMORPG; so please save me the vomit coming to the defense of Ashes of Creation.
Maybe because devs listen to those that don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and want to actively push out certain demographics and genre enjoyers out of their game?
I agree.
Those people trying to push myself and others like me out of the game by saying we shouldn't/can't use trackers really need to stop just thinking about themselves, and think about how others like to enjoy MMO's.
The genre would be so much better if they just let people enjoy the game the way they want, rather than these people forcing their opinion of how to enjoy MMO's on to everyone.
I decided to check out the forums, why is there a 176 page discussion on a dps meter? lol.
Why would there be a discussion on having more info? Don't want to use one, then don't. Don't want to be held to one, don't group with people that will. Pretty simple lol.
I guess I should add to this, as a raid/guild leader of 15-20 years now....we NEED information...the more information the better. You don't have to join a guild, group, etc with people who are going to hold you to it. But a game without information, especially at the top end and harder difficult things...will be a mess. Best example these days being warcraft logs in combination with something like wow analyzer so I can see how people are performing, what is being missed mechanics wise, and what we can do to improve each attempt to actually complete the content.
Comments
I don't think the combat will be like a Fighting game lol.
If you're working in a large group and engaging in combat there is necessarily a perception component to it though that is engaging. It's the one place perception and proper reaction/ response should be rewarded, if anywhere in the game.
If you want to reward decision-making, reward strategy and tactics in group combat, and in civ-building.
I was expecting that response and had a thought on that myself that I edited in, but you had already responded. I added this portion if youd like to go re-read.
I don't know what other areas of the game you're referring to.
Combat moves are combat moves.
And Not even fighting games require frame perfect inputs or have single frame windows.
We were talking about how data helps further reward good decision making skill. Then about how people should be tested in gathering such data. You suggested it should be a perceptive skill-test. I said that if this were the case it would be a barrier to entry for those that could potentially have better decision making skills, because of the denial of data access. The data is used to make better decsions, which i what i was referring to by "other areas of the game" as in, other skill-checks that the data usage is intertwined with.
So even though "Combat moves are combat moves." Data about your combat move properties is essential to optimize your combat move decision making, which is a decision making skill-check.
You can have both perceptive skill-checks and decsion making skill-checks, without having to water down the decision making aspect when you make certain decision making related factors tied to perceptive skill (such as data acquisition).
I don't know if anyone actually needs to hear this, but this is, of course, not true.
They've recently put a lot of work into reducing the number of these required to play effectively, but they're still there.
I expect to see more of them in Ashes, though.
If a player can't fight and doesn't understand combat then they're not fit to lead grounded, in-field, direct combat. Simple as that.
Pretty sure inputs queue if entered near the end of one's own animation, but anyway that sort of frame perfect input is much less burdensome and incredibly repetitious and mechanical. Not an issue.
Unless you're talking about something else.
Im not sure where the disconnect happened but that has nothing to do with what I said. Nothing I said implied you shouldn't be required to understand combat.
Even though "Combat moves are combat moves", data about your combat move properties is essential to optimize your combat move decision making, which is a decision making skill-check.
That is just as much of combat mastery as perceiving the properties of your moves. As I said, i simply am willing to make a small sacrifice in the perceptive based skill-check, to further reward good combat decision making through making data acquisition more accessible. This does not mean you can't also have perceptive based skill-checks, simply that they shouldn't be tied to factors essential for testing your decision making skills.
Just ask people you're working with and practice with them.
Good point. I tend to be more self-reliant, but the social aspect is an important part of an mmo. I can tend to have trust issues when relying on other people's input though.
When someone says something seems to work a certain way it's easier to look for and ask others about though.
Generally speaking, if you are doing this, you are asking someone that knows the answer already.
I agree, this easier to ask someone that knows the answer to a question than it is to figure it out for yourself, but someone, at some point in time, needs to be the first to figure it out.
If you are the first to want the answer to a thing, there isnt anyone to ask that can give you an answer.
that's life
Indeed it is.
Both in my job and on gaming, I'm one of the people that is among the first to ask those questions, and so I do a lot of figuring things out for myself.
When I'm playing an MMO, guess what tool I use to figure things out, so that when others ask me about them I am able to answer their question.
I guess you can't be #1 anymore
I dont try to be.
I just try to be better than I was yesterday. If I succeed at that, I consider it a win.
Then maybe you will notice frame data if that is particularly relevant to Ashes combat
I dont expect it will be.
Keep in mind, if hybrid combat wasnt going to work out, Intrepid were set to default to tab target combat, not action.
This means that on a scale, combat in Ashes will be closer to tab than it will to a pure action combat game.
Because action combat is more difficult to get right. Especially for someone that played more Tab MMOs and Pathfinder than Action anything.
I am hoping Sharif brought on people who are good at action combat and have developed it to a high standard but I doubt that's the case.
The plurality of Intrepid staff are ex-EQ2 developers.
It won't be allow, it is stated and really really low chance to change.
And... it is not so bad, because if one kind of third party is allowed, what about others ?
But... many game don't allow this, and... those many game still have a tracker on a form or another.
This is why nooani, but also others (as i) try to explain the benefits of a tracker, being opt-in thru guild perk, with some specific way to be used as hidden during fight (to avoid people losing time, and focus watching their DPS for their ego while fight is going for example).
As i view this idea :
Most toxic behaviour risk disappear. (toxicity coming mostly when 2 kind of mentality are in same group of player... not case here, you chose the guild fitting your mentality), It also avoid to track people who don't want/don't care (it is a problem in FFXIV... ). And for tracker enjoyers, it will give more accurate data (third party can easily have a little variation due to indirect data gathering... not a big one, but 100% accuracy is better than 99%) And it would provide another data for IS to see how the players are playing the game. (more kind of information to see it is always better) Because tracker users vs non users, is not the same thing as people doing high end PvE and those not ^^".
― Plato
I agree with you 100%
Drinking refreshing snowflakes tears
Think of philosophers of real life. The theorycrafters of real life.
They live in their own world. They meta-game the fuck out of it.
This is basically contrary to the point of the game; but if people want to look at the info and options the game has provided and strategize, think up tactics, et cetera. That's fine with me.
Reducing everything to numbers then showing those numbers on screen is immersion breaking though
(yes immersion this is an objective definition) and mood/ atmosphere breaking (basically objective because it's a medieval fantasy world you're exploring and struggling in; any opinion otherwise is number compulsives demanding they get their fix).
Having floating numbers and meta-gaming BS rather than immersive gaming: is complete BS.
Maybe because devs listen to those that don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and want to actively push out certain demographics and genre enjoyers out of their game?
MMO just means massively multiplayer online. Add in role-playing game and you technically can do almost anything with the genre.
Yet most examples of an MMORPG seem to do everything to mitigate the definition of its own genre, rather than leaning hard into it and LEADING in a direction of real growth rather than real confinement or complete ungrounding.
MMORPGs are clowns.
If I can think of ways of expanding the game, gameplay, and classes; you're in hot water.
You can say what I say is shit, but it's because I'm right LMAO
Most of my suggestions aren't for Ashes of Creation they're for an MMORPG; so please save me the vomit coming to the defense of Ashes of Creation.
Those people trying to push myself and others like me out of the game by saying we shouldn't/can't use trackers really need to stop just thinking about themselves, and think about how others like to enjoy MMO's.
The genre would be so much better if they just let people enjoy the game the way they want, rather than these people forcing their opinion of how to enjoy MMO's on to everyone.
Why would there be a discussion on having more info? Don't want to use one, then don't. Don't want to be held to one, don't group with people that will. Pretty simple lol.
I guess I should add to this, as a raid/guild leader of 15-20 years now....we NEED information...the more information the better. You don't have to join a guild, group, etc with people who are going to hold you to it. But a game without information, especially at the top end and harder difficult things...will be a mess. Best example these days being warcraft logs in combination with something like wow analyzer so I can see how people are performing, what is being missed mechanics wise, and what we can do to improve each attempt to actually complete the content.