It's a start, I'm one to believe that while influences from previous titles in regard to development are fine; when it becomes too apparent it detracts from their own creation.
With that said the heavy influence from GW1 and GW2 were too noticeable, if it was subtle that is fine. I prefer IS rely on their own brilliance they have too much for this industry not to squander it.
Impassioned players are at the danger of being myopic, it's important to remember that. Especially when they overestimate themselves when it comes to perceiving their own knowledge and ability in a genre. However, if people like what they like, that's answer is more than appropriate if they remember that an emotionally truthful and intelligent answer is not always able to be expressed in terms of data logic and engineering.
In regard to the art style, I do not think the combats art flow matches the world they're building. Over the top animations like that big flip or the hammer from the melee reveal are out of place in with their artistic design they've presented in the rest of the world. It's detracting from the setting of Verra.
I would say that I'm absolutely unsure of what the IS teams is calling hybrid, I'm someone who is a bit more defined in absolute sense. Their system looks very incomplete and will take a long time to finish developing. In further developing their hybrid I would like the same effort and weight across the tab target and action combat, if they're going to engineer the tab portion of the hybrid system well, then it is not unreasonable to want defined, crisp action combat that is well engineered too.
To me that is on the very straight forward and simple side of things, free-aiming abilities without any aim assists or soft targeting. If a player hits, they hit. If they miss, they miss. We don't need over the top and super advanced solutions, let action be action, let tab be tab with seamless flow between the two for those of us who can toggle constantly between the two.
edit: sorry just saw there is a separate thread for discussion
I will give an extra piece of feedback here instead:
Sound effect for critical hits should be more visceral, something satisfying that would make it feel better when you land a critical hit and get an immediate sound feedback
Look at how Tera did critical hits and blood ground decals/splatters or how Rust does the sound for headshots (Pls No headshots in Ashes tho - I'm just talking about the sound for critical hits)
To me that is on the very straight forward and simple side of things, free-aiming abilities without any aim assists or soft targeting. If a player hits, they hit. If they miss, they miss.
Cheers.
Absolutely NOT this goes against what Action players want. Look at BDO, Tera, Blade and Soul, all the actually GOOD action games they ALL HAVE SOFT LOCK and AIM ASSIST in none of those games you actually need to aim like in the shitty failure of a game called New World.
I understand that you have your idea of what a good action combat constitutes, but you certainly only speak for yourself and your own preferences.
And my preferences are more in the styles of Conquerors Blade and Darkfall.
BOW SOUND
Why does the bow sound like that? I own several bows, I target shoot often and have hunted with them. I've hit a wide variety of targets and I can't tell what sound you guys are going for. If this is something that is pure fantasy and "that's just how they sound in that world" then good job.....I guess. I personally thought it sounded really off. Arrows can whistle in flight but you never want them to. I've seen shots miss a deer because the whistle alerted them, the deer got startled, ducked and the arrow flew right over its back. The only time an arrow should whistle is if it's a signal whistle. Something to tell troops to do a specific task. Arrows whistling in movies is just for sound. Bad design.
Also what was the other sound? Almost like striking a cue ball. Something wrong with that bow? If I ever heard a shot like that with any of my bows it would be the last arrow launched until the problem had been identified and remedied.
I know you guys need to put a sound in for the bow but this isn't it.
ARROWS
Gotta say it. I'm very firmly in the camp of needing to carry your own arrows. Hope you guys reconsider this position because when things are set up to work a certain way but the rules for that object or event defy the rules of the other objects and events it just feels like someone couldn't, or wouldn't, take the time to make it work. Great example is WoW throwing normal helmets on worgen, having their head and fur clip through the helmet and the dev team high fives each other and calling it mission accomplished. Sure it's on there but it's about as tasteful as a poopy flavored lollipop.
Quivers are never mounted on the back or sideways across the lower back/butt. They always hang from a single pivot point off the hip if the arrows are loose in the quiver. Mounted on the upper back, across the lower back/butt or on 2 points on the quiver will cause it to jostle and bounce in a manner that will cause the arrows to be catapulted out of the quiver. Same with the horizontal mounted idea as well. Quivers are meant to swing freely from the hip.
Also not sure if it matters to you guys but the arrow should be fired from the side of the bow of the hand that draws it back. Right hand draws back, arrow fires from right side of the bow. Same with left side. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk
If you don't trust the link you can look it up on youtube Lars Anderson: A New Level of Archery
RANGE
In the video when he was using target lock it appeared that Steven had to be fairly close to the mobs in order to shoot them. That looked rather odd. You can stand if front of something close enough to hit it by throwing a bowling ball overhand at it and it doesn't notice you? Is it blind? Always thought that severely broke the immersion when things that should see you don't. Instead of Ranger class maybe call it the social distancer class?
Because of how close you can get to the target before it sees you my suggestion would be to give it a much larger detection range then give the classes some sneak abilities to close the gap. LoS, crouch, distraction, etc. to get close enough to strike and maybe have a slight bit of extra damage when attacking unnoticed. When traveling off the beaten path you would need to be far more careful and the idea of finding yourself in a bad spot because you were watching where you were going sounds intriguing. It just seems like that would have a better feel moving through the world and would force people to develop their spatial awareness, something that seems to be a rarer and rarer trait in raids these days.
Should snipe do more damage when fired from concealment and undetected? I would think so since you have a massive advantage.
NAME TAGS
I'm of the mindset mobs shouldn't have name tags until they've engaged. In some of the footage I couldn't help but notice how well the mobs blended in in certain areas. I feel that gives the game a much better feeling of immersion as opposed to running by a field and seeing a bunch of name tags floating everywhere. Would be very easy for people not paying attention to run into a group of mobs and it feels like it would be a fitting outcome. Don't pay attention and get what's coming to you. Would be great if this was not something that could be toggled on or off. If the option is there then people will turn it on and everyone else will also just to be on a level playing field and then the option of the toggle is pointless
ENVIRONMENT
The landscape looks beautiful but somethings appear to be over done just a bit. The sunlight in the live stream, when you stared directly at it appeared a bit too overpowering and turning something you should be able to make out, into a silhouette that was very hard to see. I get it was sunset, but still, too much.
The mist. Way too dense. Several times Stevens character ran through it and almost completely disappeared. The only time I have seen it that dense was in a very, very heavy fog. It wasn't small patches wisping through an area. It just looked very out of place. On the chance anyone wants to claim it was pollen instead, I can go with that but I think your character should drop to the ground wheezing and coughing for the next 5 minutes and when it stands up the eyes are swollen shut, nose is pouring out snot, the character is drooling on itself and it's pretty much uncontrollable. Cause that level of pollen should probably kill you.
On a side note, every scene we see is picturesque. Maybe even a little too picturesque. Everything is warm, flowing and lush. While I do enjoy these zones, where's the dark, creepy, haunted, spooky zones that make you think twice about going in? Those are by far my most favorite places in games. If you do have some of those please don't make them dungeons only. The world needs balance.
ONE LAST THOUGHT
Getting the character creator early so we can take our time making a character look just the way we want is really cool. The thing that isn't cool is when you spend all that time making a character and a few levels in, or days in, you know this isn't the character for you and you reroll. All that time and progress are wasted. That may not be a big issue for some but for others that have very limited time it can really suck starting over. People doing the alphas and betas wont have this issue as they will get to play ahead of time and come launch they already know what class they want, have a decent idea of the rotation and a clear advantage time wise compared to those with no keys.
What I'm asking for is that when the character creator is released a week or two ahead of time it would be nice to have a small 1 man arena with a target dummy or 2 so the people that couldn't get into the alphas or betas can test out the classes and get a feel for which path they want to go down and hopefully avoid wasted time and having to reroll. A nice even playing field on launch day.
You guys are doing a great job and I can't wait to play it. Keep up the good work.
I don't know if anyone catched it with steven saying it but I love the idea of elemental/alchemal quivers for the ranged weapons so that you can do different dmg types in the seasons that would be super cool and in depth as for the actually show case personally I have no issues with the ranged combat I think it looks like the best in any mmo ive seen for both tab targeting and dynamic
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FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
I liked everything that you showed with skills. The direction is good.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
More mobility options and low CC options will probably make the best experience for both the ranger and melee opponents. However, I personally love having CC that interrupt major attacks. Raises the skill ceiling a lot.
It would be nice to have skill synergy options for both solo and groups.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I was hoping for an actual FPS style aiming system with some kind of headshot damage multiplier (even if the multiplier wasn't very high) but I'm having a hard time deciding how good the aiming will feel using the soft lock system. I will comment after some time in Alpha 2.
That being said, if actual aiming is off the table at this point: having the action combat option is much better than not; and, I am glad that it is in the game.
I loved everything about this apart from one thing. The high pitch ringing sound of the arrows happens too frequently. Yes, it sounds cool as hell. The problem is, we'll be shooting arrows literally thousands of times over the course of playing the game, and after awhile it's going to get annoying. Maybe reduce the frequency of that particular sound effect by about 75%. Otherwise, everything looked great!
Looks very good, maybe slow down firing a bit. Would be interesting to switch the tab lock and manual aim so that the skill shots are manual and auto stuff is tab locked.
Not a fan of ammo needs for rangers, but a quiver is nice for the looks, maybe for special ammo thats not needed for the normal fights.
Liked the look and abilities, but a bit hard to judge as you have to try it out for yourself.
The one complaint I have is about the sound side. It felt to loud, and I think the constant whistling will become annoying with time.
It was nice to se that short and long bow has a different approach to combat.
I liked the appearance of it, but it looks like you are currently able to shoot through terrain. Also arrows are passing through enemies and are only hitting the enemy that is targetted. I expect it just looks like that with the terrain, if not that it will be fixed before launch, but arrows passing through enemies is in my opinion bad gameplay and should not work like this. Arrows should hit the first enemy in the trajectory, not the target only. It might be that it just looks like that, but it looks like that at multiple occasions in your latest devstream.
The visuals are nailed down, but there is some magic behind the curtains that could do with some tweaking.
As mentioned in my tweet, I feel there needs to be an incentive to use action mode targeting versus tab targeting, maybe a 5% buff to damage in action mode where you have to focus and direct your aim for example.
It's nice to have the options, but players will generally go for what is "easier" when it comes to combat targeting, so tab target "lock on" style combat will generally outweigh any hybrid or action based targeting that requires more manual focusing / aiming.
In order to entice players to use the hybrid targeting there should be some kind of damage buff, but then that would have to be balanced so you don't have players using the hybrid model to get the buff, then switching back to tab target. Maybe have it so you lose the buff if you switch combat modes.
Game looks great, and I love the look of the ranger.
I liked what I saw in the livestream, however I do have a small concern regarding hybrid combat. It looked like tab was in general a better, easier, more optimal way of playing a ranger, because action didn't provide good enough advantages over tab. It is my honest opinion that a way of playing that's more engaging and requires more of you (aiming) should have its benefits, and I don't think the benefits Steven talked about did it justice.
Remember that most players will choose the path with least resistance. In this case it's tab mode, even if a player would generally prefer action if it was more "viable".
I love the way you've approached action combat. The incentive of said mode is the speed to switch between targets and cast abilities. I think it's perfect for small scale PvP, skirmishes and open world.
BOW SOUND
Why does the bow sound like that? I own several bows, I target shoot often and have hunted with them. I've hit a wide variety of targets and I can't tell what sound you guys are going for. If this is something that is pure fantasy and "that's just how they sound in that world" then good job.....I guess. I personally thought it sounded really off. Arrows can whistle in flight but you never want them to. I've seen shots miss a deer because the whistle alerted them, the deer got startled, ducked and the arrow flew right over its back. The only time an arrow should whistle is if it's a signal whistle. Something to tell troops to do a specific task. Arrows whistling in movies is just for sound. Bad design.
Also what was the other sound? Almost like striking a cue ball. Something wrong with that bow? If I ever heard a shot like that with any of my bows it would be the last arrow launched until the problem had been identified and remedied.
I know you guys need to put a sound in for the bow but this isn't it.
ARROWS
Gotta say it. I'm very firmly in the camp of needing to carry your own arrows. Hope you guys reconsider this position because when things are set up to work a certain way but the rules for that object or event defy the rules of the other objects and events it just feels like someone couldn't, or wouldn't, take the time to make it work. Great example is WoW throwing normal helmets on worgen, having their head and fur clip through the helmet and the dev team high fives each other and calling it mission accomplished. Sure it's on there but it's about as tasteful as a poopy flavored lollipop.
Quivers are never mounted on the back or sideways across the lower back/butt. They always hang from a single pivot point off the hip if the arrows are loose in the quiver. Mounted on the upper back, across the lower back/butt or on 2 points on the quiver will cause it to jostle and bounce in a manner that will cause the arrows to be catapulted out of the quiver. Same with the horizontal mounted idea as well. Quivers are meant to swing freely from the hip.
Also not sure if it matters to you guys but the arrow should be fired from the side of the bow of the hand that draws it back. Right hand draws back, arrow fires from right side of the bow. Same with left side. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk
If you don't trust the link you can look it up on youtube Lars Anderson: A New Level of Archery
RANGE
In the video when he was using target lock it appeared that Steven had to be fairly close to the mobs in order to shoot them. That looked rather odd. You can stand if front of something close enough to hit it by throwing a bowling ball overhand at it and it doesn't notice you? Is it blind? Always thought that severely broke the immersion when things that should see you don't. Instead of Ranger class maybe call it the social distancer class?
Because of how close you can get to the target before it sees you my suggestion would be to give it a much larger detection range then give the classes some sneak abilities to close the gap. LoS, crouch, distraction, etc. to get close enough to strike and maybe have a slight bit of extra damage when attacking unnoticed. When traveling off the beaten path you would need to be far more careful and the idea of finding yourself in a bad spot because you were watching where you were going sounds intriguing. It just seems like that would have a better feel moving through the world and would force people to develop their spatial awareness, something that seems to be a rarer and rarer trait in raids these days.
Should snipe do more damage when fired from concealment and undetected? I would think so since you have a massive advantage.
NAME TAGS
I'm of the mindset mobs shouldn't have name tags until they've engaged. In some of the footage I couldn't help but notice how well the mobs blended in in certain areas. I feel that gives the game a much better feeling of immersion as opposed to running by a field and seeing a bunch of name tags floating everywhere. Would be very easy for people not paying attention to run into a group of mobs and it feels like it would be a fitting outcome. Don't pay attention and get what's coming to you. Would be great if this was not something that could be toggled on or off. If the option is there then people will turn it on and everyone else will also just to be on a level playing field and then the option of the toggle is pointless
ENVIRONMENT
The landscape looks beautiful but somethings appear to be over done just a bit. The sunlight in the live stream, when you stared directly at it appeared a bit too overpowering and turning something you should be able to make out, into a silhouette that was very hard to see. I get it was sunset, but still, too much.
The mist. Way too dense. Several times Stevens character ran through it and almost completely disappeared. The only time I have seen it that dense was in a very, very heavy fog. It wasn't small patches wisping through an area. It just looked very out of place. On the chance anyone wants to claim it was pollen instead, I can go with that but I think your character should drop to the ground wheezing and coughing for the next 5 minutes and when it stands up the eyes are swollen shut, nose is pouring out snot, the character is drooling on itself and it's pretty much uncontrollable. Cause that level of pollen should probably kill you.
On a side note, every scene we see is picturesque. Maybe even a little too picturesque. Everything is warm, flowing and lush. While I do enjoy these zones, where's the dark, creepy, haunted, spooky zones that make you think twice about going in? Those are by far my most favorite places in games. If you do have some of those please don't make them dungeons only. The world needs balance.
ONE LAST THOUGHT
Getting the character creator early so we can take our time making a character look just the way we want is really cool. The thing that isn't cool is when you spend all that time making a character and a few levels in, or days in, you know this isn't the character for you and you reroll. All that time and progress are wasted. That may not be a big issue for some but for others that have very limited time it can really suck starting over. People doing the alphas and betas wont have this issue as they will get to play ahead of time and come launch they already know what class they want, have a decent idea of the rotation and a clear advantage time wise compared to those with no keys.
What I'm asking for is that when the character creator is released a week or two ahead of time it would be nice to have a small 1 man arena with a target dummy or 2 so the people that couldn't get into the alphas or betas can test out the classes and get a feel for which path they want to go down and hopefully avoid wasted time and having to reroll. A nice even playing field on launch day.
You guys are doing a great job and I can't wait to play it. Keep up the good work.
i with almost everything..
- sound of arrows is too whistle and becomes annoying
- arrows in eq might be cool to have
- long bow needs more range and detection range of the mobs needs to be bigger
- name tags should not be a thing until u aim at the enemy, so mobs does not have a name tag but u can see thier name when u target them and u have thier hp in the middle of the screen
- i dont mind this enviroment, its not super realistic, true, but it creates very unique feel of mistry forest -> about dark zones.. we will have those, for example vulcanic lava biome
- its almost a year now that i wanted them to create test area in character creator
- loving the class direction, skills like Aerial Strike capture the archer fantasy of acrobatic dodging while weaving in reply arrows
- aerial speed is looking good - it's easy to track where the archer is, though I might need to play against it to get a proper feel from an opponent's perspective
- camera effects are really selling these skills - I like it a lot.
- Snipe and Quickshot aren't interesting on their own - but as you guys said, have potential to combo with other effects to become interesting (see below)
- Soft-lock action targetting looks far more useable than Hard-lock, but action targetting altogether has no real benefit in the ranged combat demonstrated here (target acquisition from pressing [tab] will always be faster) UNLESS you have more template attacks that can be freely aimed (I like template attacks). Hard-lock targetting looks real clunky, but I need hands-on to know for sure.
- Could we have all these abilities with daggers that we throw? (Snipe dagger throw, Quickshot with 3 daggers, etc.)
>My Archer Fantasy: setup + detonate
I like what Steven was saying about skill combos, I want archer classes that have skills to create a ripe opportunity, pull a trigger, then everything explodes.
I've seen two types:
- high-skill setup with a low-skill trigger (gameplay loop is focused on trying to create the perfect setup) e.g. Twitch from League of Legends - build as many stacks of poison on an enemy as you can, then detonating all stacks to deal a burst of damage
- low-skill setup with a high-skill trigger (gameplay loop is focused on timing the perfect trigger) e.g. Longblade from Monster Hunter - attacking builds up energy on your weapon, when full charge you get 1 opportunity to pull off a high-risk special attack
As I see it, Quickshot has potential as a low-skill trigger to get a triple proc of your setup effects, whereas Snipe has potential as a high-skill trigger that synergizes with easy compounding effects but requires more care to find a window to pull off a max-charged shot.
>Quickshot
This skill is pretty standard as is. 2 ideas for potential directions to expand in:
- skills that help you recover charges faster
- move the debuff off this skill and put variants of the debuff on other skills - idea is to stack debuffs on enemies then get a triple Quickshot proc
>Snipe
mixed feelings about this skill currently:
- I intuitively want to be able to free-aim this skill since it's a charge shot (like in Breath of the Wild or Hades or the Axe Throw in the recent God of War), but it's strongly tab oriented which makes the charge time feel cumbersome
- the loss of mobility and attack speed is not worth the extra damage - I could use 2 or 3 other skills in the time it takes to pull one of these off. I need a better reason to want to charge this up.
- these skills become really satisfying to hit, if the payout is good
potential directions for this skill:
- other than damage, charging this skill could increase range/projectile speed/armour penetration/stun chance/crit chance (increased range like Varus from LoL is quite satisfying)
- free-aim (like a typical sniper rifle in shooters)
- fully charged shot breaks an enemy's block/applies cc/triggers another skill
- other skills that allow you to instant-charge this skill if conditions are met (e.g. your crits don't deal extra damage, but instantly charge Snipe instead)
>Aerial Strike
How easily can we change directions before using this skill? Please let us choose how to use this skill - as a defensive retreat or an offensive jump over the enemy (as Steven was doing) or even sideways to avoid a big AoE.
Will this skill be interruptable? Do you intend to let other classes use certain abilities to pull down players from the sky?
I don't really like this skill's vine attack animations along the floor - the combination of the fluoro green vfx with the solid vines isn't mixing well - can it be simplified/harmonized? The green puff is really easy to read, but the vines look more detailed. Maybe reduce the green puff indicator to a 2D overlay on the vines, and start the vine-growth animation earlier?
potential directions for this skill:
- a way to end the skill early and drop to the floor so we can have tighter control of where we land
- full aerial combat ~sparkly eyes~
>Action Targetting
I found this iteration of Action Targetting disappointing - mainly because of the lack of free-aim template attacks (seeing Snipe greyed out especially ((kudos to the UI team, super readable design))).
Being able to sidestep an opponent's attack, or anticipate an opponent's movements would be the dream.
>Jumping and general aerial combat
Jumping is looking good - but what purpose do you see it having in combat?
In my experience, jumping is most exploited in side-scrollers, so from Maplestory here are three really fun uses of jumping in combat:
- adding some movement to normally stationary skills - this is really satisfying because you're bypassing being rooted in place
- aerial combat - skills that work differently if you're in the air (adds a whole new layer to combat)
- avoiding ground-based attacks (this was in A1 a little, would love to see more of it - more ground-based attacks from mobs and class skills)
Here's an extreme example of an archer class (Mercedes) holding onto all their upward aerial skills to evade a huge dragon's breath attack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE4BijfC25A
>Bow Types: Long v Short
I want to see what else long-bows will offer. At the moment, having reduced movement speed and attack speed is a huge deficit in almost all situations, so please give us good reasons to charge our attacks.
One simple way to help long-bows stand up against shortbows is to give enemies flat damage reduction stats - thus a flurry of multiple lighter hits is penalised more than slower hard-hitting shots.
But please keep survivability in mind too - short bows have an advantage here because of movement - how will long bows compensate for lower survivability?
>Enemies: Minotaurs
The Minotaurs look good, and they respond appropriately to being hit by an arrow (woo!) - but I was expecting Steven to be knocked onto his feet by that minotaur charge.
Might be a bit early to ask, but can we have a little more tactical combat with these more intelligent mobs? Especially since they have shields - please teach them to block, and give us skills to break an enemy's block (for PvP too)
As for the mages, the animation of their homing projectiles coming out of their staves looks a bit rough - would look better if the momentum of the staff matched the momentum of the projectile produced (alternatively, projectile speed starts at 0 and accelerates over time - I think this option might also feel more "watery"), and if the glowing vfx on the staff "bursts" when the projectile is produced.
>UI
It's great, easy to read, but a suggestion: displaying the labels on all mobs is a really dated look and clutters the screen - they only need to be shown when hovered/targetted/damaged - I suggest turning it off by default so people can turn it on if they want it. (e.g. God of War doesn't even show hp bars unless enemies near the center of screen are in range)
Hi I think there must be some effect when you use quick shot, maby some small green glow
on hand or weapon, now it's just hard to tell you're using a quick shot or just an auto attack. I like everything else.
Overall looks like a great beginning to me. The bow choices available, skills tree discussion, and targeting options are all going to allow adaptive player builds. The one thing I've been constantly thinking about is to the bow selection, the risk vs reward. It was discussed a bit in the video, range speed power... Like the historical British longbow and the Hun shortbow I feel there should be a fairly sizable difference between the distance, power, and mobility. Otherwise there will be no reason to choose a longbow to play since you could close a small distance quickly and take advantage of the high fire rate. Anyway that's my two cents... keep up the great work and I look forward to testing it in A2.
- sound of arrows is too whistle and becomes annoying
- arrows in eq might be cool to have
- long bow needs more range and detection range of the mobs needs to be bigger
- name tags should not be a thing until u aim at the enemy, so mobs does not have a name tag but u can see thier name when u target them and u have thier hp in the middle of the screen
- i dont mind this enviroment, its not super realistic, true, but it creates very unique feel of mistry forest -> about dark zones.. we will have those, for example vulcanic lava biome
- its almost a year now that i wanted them to create test area in character creator
The sound of arrow is wrong for sure but to me I don't have alternatives for them like I said in my post, if they can make it better and realistic it's great but I think it's really hard to do it.
I don't think that long bow should have longer range than short bow, one long bow and one short bow with same bow power long bow won't shoot far than short bow, long bow is just more easy to draw apart and more easy to make with high bow power or say high poundage, but in fact it's not the higher bow power so the archer can shot more far away it's depends on the skill level of the archer, so like I said in my post that I ignore the fact and not mention that long bow won't shoot far than short bow for fun aspect and pick draw length in stead for devs to use as a reference to make bow as a ranged weapon more fun and more realistic, but I saw many people don't know about these so I decide to pick one post and talk about this a little bit.
And for those really into action combat that want to have real aiming or near to that, I have to say I don't think it's a good idea, to me the action mode Intrepid show us now is on good direction, because the ranged weapon are different to melee weapon if imply a FPS/TPS like aiming to a MMORPG will end up like NEW WORLD combat only few people use ranged weapon as main weapon and that is going too far away as a MMORPG because you can't control you character in video games like what you able to do with you body in real life, for example I can run and shot arrows to who chasing me without keep check the road surface is good or not every 3 steps etc and constantly looking at my opponent and shoot arrows to it, but video games don't do that for me because it's a game not a real word sandbox simulator, so again bring real aiming in a MMORPG is going too far away to me and if it will be a thing then I will arguing about able to running away from opponent and able to shot at it without constantly work on camera no matter in tab or action mode and then there will be other side saying that melee will become useless or something like that, so where is the fun about this real aiming in MMORPG I really don't know, because I thought that as gamer/player we all understand that those things we can't asking for video games to have are basically imply into RNG or something else instead.
update: And I don't like that risk vs reward also involve into tab mode vs action mode level at the beginning I follow this game, I think it's a bad design because if action mode is easy enough to use then it will make tab mode useless and action mode can become a toxic thing, if action mode need real aiming skill to fit the risk vs reward design I don't know how it should to done in melee combat and PVE aspect it just become use action mode to have max dps in PVE use tab mode to remove human error in PVP with just a single button toggle.
As far as look and feel of the actual combat goes, I enjoyed watching it a lot.
The mobility was really cool to see with a ranged class. The only issue I foresee with the mobility might come with PvP. If ranged classes are too mobile with too many of their attacks, there may not be enough abilities for melee classes to pin down their target. But I'm sure there will be many changes in these areas before launch, so I'm not too concerned.
The abilities themselves were awesome, and the scale of the visual FX were perfect. I particularly loved the leaping airstrike. It added an epic scale to the combat using camera movement and character animation rather than relying on big flashy spell effects.
I agree that ammo is a poor design choice, and think the team should rely on quiver items for ranged weapons. There can be a default basic quiver that doesn't provide any bonuses that just automatically gets stuffed into the slot upon ranged weapon equip. The player can then equip their own quiver, either looted or crafted, that provides some minor bonuses, almost like a ranged attack trinket.
Now, for the main part of my feedback. Tab vs Action. (TL;DR below)
I understand that the team is not trying to provide "Tab and Action" but rather a singular "Hybrid" system. However, I think there needs to be some more explicit communication regarding the nature of this system, and to what extent this Hybrid will take elements of both Tab and Action. What we're seeing now is primarily Tab, as I believe Steven even mentioned. So much so, that I would honestly hesitate to call this a Hybrid.
When we saw the Action Mode in the ranged update, it became very clear that this mode didn't actually change the combat much at all, merely the camera and target selection functionality. The center of the screen changed to a reticle, and this reticle was used to vaguely land a target. As soon as the reticle landed anywhere on the enemy's hitbox, the system would, as the developers described, "soft-lock" onto them. In other words, it's a smart-target system that allows players to tab target an enemy for as long as their reticle is resting anywhere on the enemy's hitbox. It became very clear that there wasn't much control over shot direction, as any action-shot taken by Steven wouldn't actually go for the reticle, but would instead auto-target onto the center of the enemy he was vaguely aiming at. And yes, you can blind-fire in the direction of the reticle, but since it only seems to blind fire when you don't have a target in range, I really don't see that providing enough functionality to justify the system being referred to as "action-style".
Because the action combat system is essentially a smart-lock/unlock program for tab-targeting, with a locked-on target being the end result, I would ask: What's the point of using the action system at all? If the end goal is to target a specific enemy without much control over exactly where the arrow lands, would most people not rather use the basic tab target mode? There can be an argument made that in multi-target scenarios, this "action" mode might be easier to switch between targets, but as a mobile class on the move, your enemies might be crossing in front of one another, which makes directing attacks between enemies using a soft-lock system much more difficult. In such case, If a hard-lock system was available, I'd rather utilize that, allowing me to shoot specific enemies with a flick or two of a finger, no matter who walks in front of them or where the enemy strafes.
A large benefit of a true action-mode is that the player can direct their attacks more specifically, landing headshots or targeting specific focus points (weak points during boss fights, weak structural points on siege weapons, etc) as well as achieving a longer range of fire with arrow drop mechanics that differ based on weapon and character stats. Unfortunately, when both tab target and a true action mode are utilized in the same game, you come to a near impossible task of balancing the two. Inevitably, there will be calls to eliminate one or the other, with action becoming too powerful for skilled ranged-players, and tab target being too rewarding for unskilled ranged-players. This also presents similar issues for balancing ranged and melee combat, since the camera position makes it near impossible for melee players to easily control their attack direction on a single target.
At this point, it seems like the action-mode might be more dynamic and fun during casual, single-player encounters where you're not too worried about dying, but in multi-player encounters, PvP encounters, or more serious engagements where achieving precise damage direction is a high priority, and you have to start juggling group combat dynamics while dodging AoE effects, I don't think many serious players will choose to take the risk of making gameplay more difficult by having to manually aim at their targets when a tab-target system is available. How much of a balance there will be between these two types of content in AoC remains to be seen, but considering it's a PvX game that focuses primarily on group-based content, I don't think this action mode will be chosen over tab-target in the majority of content.
Action vs Tab TL;DR:
It seems the current action mode isn't a true action mode, merely a dynamic target-lock/unlock program plugged into a tab target system. It appears to lack the benefits provided by true action systems that allow precise attack direction, while making it more difficult than a tab target system to consistently land your attacks on moving targets. This is okay imo, since having both tab and true action in the same game is virtually impossible to balance while making both feel rewarding. This dynamic soft-lock system could be fun for simpler content, but assuming the "simpler content" in AoC will be relatively minimal, I don't foresee many players choosing to utilize the action mode on a regular basis, and I don't think its existence should be pushed as a major selling point.
With this in mind, I think the team should move forward with a more specific, targeted description of their combat system. Something like, "The combat in Ashes of Creation is primarily a tab-target system with dynamic soft-lock aim functionality."
If I'm incorrect, and there truly are some real benefits to using the action-mode combat over tab-targeting in large scale / PvP content, I would like to see them in action in future streams. The September demonstration and Steven's response to this question on the stream were fairly vague, and didn't really convince me that the action mode holds up as a serious combat option when players are provided with tab-target at the same time.
I don't like the back tracking but Steven often backtracks on any toon Steven plays. I loved the flow of combat and I loved the speed of combat. I've played ranger before and I might play ranger again. I was pleased there were no multi arrow shots - though rapid fire is a bit hit and miss. Other than that, I would love to see how the ranged basic attacks holds up against a melee class with gap closers.
Overall, I loved the ranger demo in isolation but I don't think it will stack up when no longer isolated. It was all about the non-pressure and non-danger invoked by the gameplay loop.
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ElfcheMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
First, visually the art and design are doing an amazing job and at this point it’s a given Intrepid can make an amazing looking game.
As far as the mechanics shown, I was far less enthused. For a hybrid system, I didn’t see much if any action but a glorified/enhanced tab targeting with soft lock and an action camera view that’s not much different than what we saw at the end of Alpha 1 (and is lifted almost entirely from another game).
The game is supposed to be about risk vs reward and at this time, I see very little reward and just additional risk for opting for action mode. No, being able to free aim is not a sufficient benefit to sway anything when tab mode basically guarantees you’ll always hit so why bother with anything that means you might actually miss.
We’ve always known the game will be more focused on tab and I fully expected going into this presentation to see 80%+ tab abilities. What I am, however, disappointed to see is that even skills like “Snipe” are tab based and require no aiming or effort. Where’s the risk? Where is the skill expression? Guess combat will boil down to who attacks first and has better gear and stats. Trying to use an ability that requires a different weapon you don’t have equipped? No problem, the game will auto switch for you…
It seems like we are moving away from the firm stance of “this game isn’t going to be for everyone” and trying to cater to lowest common denominator, especially after some feedback based on the more action based melee showcase and the open water pvp announcement that were turning away a certain part of the player base that wants the genre to never change “because that’s how it’s always been done” while simultaneously complaining that all the games are boring and stale.
If you told me a few months ago that basic melee will be more action based and require more skill to execute than ranger attacks, I would have laughed.
Had a little read through the comments here and honestly, this whole "I want to aim and hit headshots" is not my idea of a mmo. If people want to manually aim and hit shots go and play new world, horizon or assassins creed. I love the direction that Ashes is heading. I've been a DAOC and Anarchy online fan since I was 10 years old and I'm really loving every aspect you have shown. Please keep tab targeting
Daoc tab system was completely different though, ive moved on from those days (they were good days though) but action is so much better than the auto attacks of this system. You would also know how impossible it was to heal anyone when the caster or archer assist train was targeting you was in Daoc, it will be the same in this game, at least in Daoc early days you had ammo and needed to change ammo type for whoever your targeting, you also had to the standing still while shooting, this game will be just tab/assist spam auto attacks press 1 2 3 4 and rinse repeat while kiting backwards.
Overall I think the Ranged showcase looked great! Ranger looks like a really fun and engaging class to play.
I didn't notice a quiver on the Ranger. I think it would be really cool if the quiver was worn on the hip, instead of on the back as is popular in most media today. Since you guys (the devs) seem to have a great concern for detail in everything you do, it would make sense to have the quiver on the hip instead of the back, since that is how archers in reality wear them. So it would be awesome to see this represented in a game, even though it is a fantasy setting.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
The mobility that we saw from the shortbow is pretty much what I look for most in that type of ranged gameplay. If I'm playing a mobility based loadout, then I want to be hyper mobile. On the other hand if I'm playing something super ranged based, then I'd like to see super long range with low mobility.
Basically just having the basic range weapons attack play heavily into the type of play style I'm aiming for.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Want to see:
The use of planning ahead to set traps/stage the battlefield for their own advantage. Also hoping we see Rangers being able to track enemies, or see them coming from further away. When I think about the ranger fantasy, I think about somebody that has spent lots of time out in nature, learning how to track their prey and set up snares/animal traps. So seeing that translated into the battlefield would be cool.
Don't want to see:
Not wanting to see hard roots. I would rather see Ranger survivability come from their exploitation of range/mobility than from completely stopping mobility of their enemy. Slows in limited amounts or requiring advanced planning could be cool to see, but really not wanting to see an unavoidable kite fest.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
The idea behind Volley from WoW, Missile Rain from AA, or Barrage from GW2. Basically just providing archers with a way to perform a volley on an area and cause AoE damage is always something that feels good to me in games.
Not an MMO, but an example from an FPS is Hanzo from Overwatch. His sonic arrow was a really cool idea, as well as his scatter arrow. Abilities that will allow you to use the terrain to your advantage, like banking a scatter shot off a wall in a hallway to cause maximum damage is a cool idea that allows the ranger a way to be deadly even in an enclosed environment. The utility from the sonic arrow is something that I thought was unique and cool.
Not really an attack, but just an ability: mobility based escape mechanics are really cool, examples could be Disengage from WoW, or that backflip thing archers did in AA.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Excited:
I absolutely loved the ability that caused the Ranger to leap over the enemies and rain attacks down onto them. That is the type of thing that I hope we see more of - abilities that really bring the feel of the class and weapon combo to life. I think that the high mobility theme of the shortbow was awesome, and I really hope that we see more of that. On the other end of the spectrum, I hope that we see more long range focus on the longbow. I think it would be cool to see longbows get more abilities that locked them down in place, but allowed them to reach out and hit enemies way beyond the range of other classes. Something like the Sniper vs the Rifleman.
Overall, I'm really excited to see where the team takes the combat. I love the fast paced and dynamic feel that the leap ability gave the combat, and I hope we see more of that. Abilities like that which can help raise the skill ceiling are really cool.
Concerns:
I hope we have enough abilities and resources for those abilities where auto attacks are just woven in supplementally, rather than composing the bulk of our combat. The basic attacks for the short bow didn't seem like they felt super impactful, which I guess makes sense because they are just basic attacks. However, I think that maybe if we had abilities to augment our basic attacks, then they would feel more impactful and important, rather than just being something you spam. For instance, just as a random example, if there was an ability that caused your next couple basic attacks to slow the target(s) hit, then it could make your basic attack feel much more strategic and useful, rather than just being something you mindlessly spam.
FEEDBACK: Amazing, amazing, amazing... the demonstration felt very responsive and the combat seemed 10/10 for me.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
I would love to have an spec or a enchant to my weapon to make it possible to proc lightnings (thunderbolts not sure how to say this in English properly) and combo this with a high ask speed to make good dps. Nothing weird or too much (something like maelstrom in the moba game Dota2).
Also I would love to see a skill where the archer shoots a cone of arrows to give him some aoe damage in his rotation.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I want to see a good dps with some skills to reposition like airstrike but lower mov speed than my enemies to feel the gap closing as I make huge dps and feel the sense of urgency of bursting them before they get me.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I love what was shown and I'm really curious to see how many different types of procs we can have and how we can play around them.
I think for me, ranged weapon attacks are inherently opportunistic in nature. They're deadly to the right target, but not necessarily reliable. Body blocking, terrain blocking, spells or abilities, and heavier armor should play large roles in mitigating the threat that ranged weapons (and spells) represent. It's a tricky trade-off, where the ranger needs to get to the right spot to deal massive damage on a squishy, or performing zone control through consistent and punishing damage to targets in an area.
As for tropes, rangers are the masters of the wilderness. It would be cool to see buffs for themselves and others depending on the biome they're in. Something like the ability to apply or amplify alchemical buffs of a certain variety (even themed as a skill) to your teammates. Party wide sunscreen in the desert, for instance.
The things I'm most excited about are how nicely the different targetting modes work with the ranged weapon attacks. I said it best on Reddit so I'll skip that here. What I just noticed on my big screen tv viewing of the video was that in action combat mode, it selects targets nearest the retical and shoots them.. rather than firing exclusively at the retical. That's a very good idea in my book, because it appeals to players with lesser physical aptitudes for fast paced combat, while also allowing those with the aptitude to pull off some higher level moves.
Very very happy with both weapon attack videos so far, thirsty for alpha 2, keep up the stellar work my guys.
I'm so happy about the direction you are going with the combat, both melee and range. As an action combat lover myself, I think hybrid combat is way to go. I think action combat is only fun in pve, but sucks in pvp. Hybrid is the best option for pvp especially the direction you are going with it. I think that action players will like the action mode when they actually play the game based on what was shown. You guys nailed.
I very much enjoy the demo, but needed to watch it 5-6 times to understand. I was initially unimpressed and turned it off (just being honest). I love Gw2's Action Mode, and feel AoC will be a better version of this. This will be something players need to feel for themselves, please do not take feedback on this feature until then! Specific breakdown below:
1. Targeting: Love this, both action and tab look great. I think lock-on is perfect and disagree with some players desire for headshots/FPS style gameplay. While that could be fun, it would be too difficult to balance, slow down production, limit cool boss fights, etc. This is an MMORPG, not a single player experience. What you currently have is close to perfect - I think.
2. Auto Attack: I need to feel this in game. I like the idea for deeper weapon customization/skill trees & understand your intent - but this is a big turn off for many people. Please explain/show this more!
3. Abilities & Animations: Look awesome, love it. The enemies are a bit on the robotic side, but this is pre A2 - just needs a bit more polish imo. The sounds and environment are amazing.
4. Weapons: Love it, perfect. Need more information about switching weapons in combat & how many weapons (and types) you have at once. Still unclear after watching 5-6 times...
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
i like the action mode and that it is mainly a aiming advantage (time to react)- no hit scan (as far as i understood)
i like the fact that objects and "players/NPCs/enemies" can body block projectiles (maybe even block them intentionaly)
i dont like the sound of the shots (not realistc while flying and on impact)
Overall i am verry pleased with what i saw - looking forward to testing in A2!
[Fleo Verum] Carolus Dynamicus - Py'rai - Rogue+Fighter
Comments
Hey.
It's a start, I'm one to believe that while influences from previous titles in regard to development are fine; when it becomes too apparent it detracts from their own creation.
With that said the heavy influence from GW1 and GW2 were too noticeable, if it was subtle that is fine. I prefer IS rely on their own brilliance they have too much for this industry not to squander it.
Impassioned players are at the danger of being myopic, it's important to remember that. Especially when they overestimate themselves when it comes to perceiving their own knowledge and ability in a genre. However, if people like what they like, that's answer is more than appropriate if they remember that an emotionally truthful and intelligent answer is not always able to be expressed in terms of data logic and engineering.
In regard to the art style, I do not think the combats art flow matches the world they're building. Over the top animations like that big flip or the hammer from the melee reveal are out of place in with their artistic design they've presented in the rest of the world. It's detracting from the setting of Verra.
I would say that I'm absolutely unsure of what the IS teams is calling hybrid, I'm someone who is a bit more defined in absolute sense. Their system looks very incomplete and will take a long time to finish developing. In further developing their hybrid I would like the same effort and weight across the tab target and action combat, if they're going to engineer the tab portion of the hybrid system well, then it is not unreasonable to want defined, crisp action combat that is well engineered too.
To me that is on the very straight forward and simple side of things, free-aiming abilities without any aim assists or soft targeting. If a player hits, they hit. If they miss, they miss. We don't need over the top and super advanced solutions, let action be action, let tab be tab with seamless flow between the two for those of us who can toggle constantly between the two.
Cheers.
I will give an extra piece of feedback here instead:
Sound effect for critical hits should be more visceral, something satisfying that would make it feel better when you land a critical hit and get an immediate sound feedback
Look at how Tera did critical hits and blood ground decals/splatters or how Rust does the sound for headshots (Pls No headshots in Ashes tho - I'm just talking about the sound for critical hits)
I understand that you have your idea of what a good action combat constitutes, but you certainly only speak for yourself and your own preferences.
And my preferences are more in the styles of Conquerors Blade and Darkfall.
BOW SOUND
Why does the bow sound like that? I own several bows, I target shoot often and have hunted with them. I've hit a wide variety of targets and I can't tell what sound you guys are going for. If this is something that is pure fantasy and "that's just how they sound in that world" then good job.....I guess. I personally thought it sounded really off. Arrows can whistle in flight but you never want them to. I've seen shots miss a deer because the whistle alerted them, the deer got startled, ducked and the arrow flew right over its back. The only time an arrow should whistle is if it's a signal whistle. Something to tell troops to do a specific task. Arrows whistling in movies is just for sound. Bad design.
Also what was the other sound? Almost like striking a cue ball. Something wrong with that bow? If I ever heard a shot like that with any of my bows it would be the last arrow launched until the problem had been identified and remedied.
I know you guys need to put a sound in for the bow but this isn't it.
ARROWS
Gotta say it. I'm very firmly in the camp of needing to carry your own arrows. Hope you guys reconsider this position because when things are set up to work a certain way but the rules for that object or event defy the rules of the other objects and events it just feels like someone couldn't, or wouldn't, take the time to make it work. Great example is WoW throwing normal helmets on worgen, having their head and fur clip through the helmet and the dev team high fives each other and calling it mission accomplished. Sure it's on there but it's about as tasteful as a poopy flavored lollipop.
Quivers are never mounted on the back or sideways across the lower back/butt. They always hang from a single pivot point off the hip if the arrows are loose in the quiver. Mounted on the upper back, across the lower back/butt or on 2 points on the quiver will cause it to jostle and bounce in a manner that will cause the arrows to be catapulted out of the quiver. Same with the horizontal mounted idea as well. Quivers are meant to swing freely from the hip.
Also not sure if it matters to you guys but the arrow should be fired from the side of the bow of the hand that draws it back. Right hand draws back, arrow fires from right side of the bow. Same with left side.
If you don't trust the link you can look it up on youtube Lars Anderson: A New Level of Archery
RANGE
In the video when he was using target lock it appeared that Steven had to be fairly close to the mobs in order to shoot them. That looked rather odd. You can stand if front of something close enough to hit it by throwing a bowling ball overhand at it and it doesn't notice you? Is it blind? Always thought that severely broke the immersion when things that should see you don't. Instead of Ranger class maybe call it the social distancer class?
Because of how close you can get to the target before it sees you my suggestion would be to give it a much larger detection range then give the classes some sneak abilities to close the gap. LoS, crouch, distraction, etc. to get close enough to strike and maybe have a slight bit of extra damage when attacking unnoticed. When traveling off the beaten path you would need to be far more careful and the idea of finding yourself in a bad spot because you were watching where you were going sounds intriguing. It just seems like that would have a better feel moving through the world and would force people to develop their spatial awareness, something that seems to be a rarer and rarer trait in raids these days.
Should snipe do more damage when fired from concealment and undetected? I would think so since you have a massive advantage.
NAME TAGS
I'm of the mindset mobs shouldn't have name tags until they've engaged. In some of the footage I couldn't help but notice how well the mobs blended in in certain areas. I feel that gives the game a much better feeling of immersion as opposed to running by a field and seeing a bunch of name tags floating everywhere. Would be very easy for people not paying attention to run into a group of mobs and it feels like it would be a fitting outcome. Don't pay attention and get what's coming to you. Would be great if this was not something that could be toggled on or off. If the option is there then people will turn it on and everyone else will also just to be on a level playing field and then the option of the toggle is pointless
ENVIRONMENT
The landscape looks beautiful but somethings appear to be over done just a bit. The sunlight in the live stream, when you stared directly at it appeared a bit too overpowering and turning something you should be able to make out, into a silhouette that was very hard to see. I get it was sunset, but still, too much.
The mist. Way too dense. Several times Stevens character ran through it and almost completely disappeared. The only time I have seen it that dense was in a very, very heavy fog. It wasn't small patches wisping through an area. It just looked very out of place. On the chance anyone wants to claim it was pollen instead, I can go with that but I think your character should drop to the ground wheezing and coughing for the next 5 minutes and when it stands up the eyes are swollen shut, nose is pouring out snot, the character is drooling on itself and it's pretty much uncontrollable. Cause that level of pollen should probably kill you.
On a side note, every scene we see is picturesque. Maybe even a little too picturesque. Everything is warm, flowing and lush. While I do enjoy these zones, where's the dark, creepy, haunted, spooky zones that make you think twice about going in? Those are by far my most favorite places in games. If you do have some of those please don't make them dungeons only. The world needs balance.
ONE LAST THOUGHT
Getting the character creator early so we can take our time making a character look just the way we want is really cool. The thing that isn't cool is when you spend all that time making a character and a few levels in, or days in, you know this isn't the character for you and you reroll. All that time and progress are wasted. That may not be a big issue for some but for others that have very limited time it can really suck starting over. People doing the alphas and betas wont have this issue as they will get to play ahead of time and come launch they already know what class they want, have a decent idea of the rotation and a clear advantage time wise compared to those with no keys.
What I'm asking for is that when the character creator is released a week or two ahead of time it would be nice to have a small 1 man arena with a target dummy or 2 so the people that couldn't get into the alphas or betas can test out the classes and get a feel for which path they want to go down and hopefully avoid wasted time and having to reroll. A nice even playing field on launch day.
You guys are doing a great job and I can't wait to play it. Keep up the good work.
I liked everything that you showed with skills. The direction is good.
More mobility options and low CC options will probably make the best experience for both the ranger and melee opponents. However, I personally love having CC that interrupt major attacks. Raises the skill ceiling a lot.
It would be nice to have skill synergy options for both solo and groups.
I was hoping for an actual FPS style aiming system with some kind of headshot damage multiplier (even if the multiplier wasn't very high) but I'm having a hard time deciding how good the aiming will feel using the soft lock system. I will comment after some time in Alpha 2.
That being said, if actual aiming is off the table at this point: having the action combat option is much better than not; and, I am glad that it is in the game.
Not a fan of ammo needs for rangers, but a quiver is nice for the looks, maybe for special ammo thats not needed for the normal fights.
The one complaint I have is about the sound side. It felt to loud, and I think the constant whistling will become annoying with time.
It was nice to se that short and long bow has a different approach to combat.
The visuals are nailed down, but there is some magic behind the curtains that could do with some tweaking.
It's nice to have the options, but players will generally go for what is "easier" when it comes to combat targeting, so tab target "lock on" style combat will generally outweigh any hybrid or action based targeting that requires more manual focusing / aiming.
In order to entice players to use the hybrid targeting there should be some kind of damage buff, but then that would have to be balanced so you don't have players using the hybrid model to get the buff, then switching back to tab target. Maybe have it so you lose the buff if you switch combat modes.
Game looks great, and I love the look of the ranger.
Remember that most players will choose the path with least resistance. In this case it's tab mode, even if a player would generally prefer action if it was more "viable".
i with almost everything..
- sound of arrows is too whistle and becomes annoying
- arrows in eq might be cool to have
- long bow needs more range and detection range of the mobs needs to be bigger
- name tags should not be a thing until u aim at the enemy, so mobs does not have a name tag but u can see thier name when u target them and u have thier hp in the middle of the screen
- i dont mind this enviroment, its not super realistic, true, but it creates very unique feel of mistry forest -> about dark zones.. we will have those, for example vulcanic lava biome
- its almost a year now that i wanted them to create test area in character creator
>My Archer Fantasy: setup + detonate
I like what Steven was saying about skill combos, I want archer classes that have skills to create a ripe opportunity, pull a trigger, then everything explodes.
I've seen two types:
- - high-skill setup with a low-skill trigger (gameplay loop is focused on trying to create the perfect setup) e.g. Twitch from League of Legends - build as many stacks of poison on an enemy as you can, then detonating all stacks to deal a burst of damage
- - low-skill setup with a high-skill trigger (gameplay loop is focused on timing the perfect trigger) e.g. Longblade from Monster Hunter - attacking builds up energy on your weapon, when full charge you get 1 opportunity to pull off a high-risk special attack
As I see it, Quickshot has potential as a low-skill trigger to get a triple proc of your setup effects, whereas Snipe has potential as a high-skill trigger that synergizes with easy compounding effects but requires more care to find a window to pull off a max-charged shot.>Quickshot
This skill is pretty standard as is. 2 ideas for potential directions to expand in:
>Snipe
mixed feelings about this skill currently:
potential directions for this skill:
>Aerial Strike
How easily can we change directions before using this skill? Please let us choose how to use this skill - as a defensive retreat or an offensive jump over the enemy (as Steven was doing) or even sideways to avoid a big AoE.
Will this skill be interruptable? Do you intend to let other classes use certain abilities to pull down players from the sky?
I don't really like this skill's vine attack animations along the floor - the combination of the fluoro green vfx with the solid vines isn't mixing well - can it be simplified/harmonized? The green puff is really easy to read, but the vines look more detailed. Maybe reduce the green puff indicator to a 2D overlay on the vines, and start the vine-growth animation earlier?
potential directions for this skill:
>Action Targetting
I found this iteration of Action Targetting disappointing - mainly because of the lack of free-aim template attacks (seeing Snipe greyed out especially ((kudos to the UI team, super readable design))).
Being able to sidestep an opponent's attack, or anticipate an opponent's movements would be the dream.
>Jumping and general aerial combat
Jumping is looking good - but what purpose do you see it having in combat?
In my experience, jumping is most exploited in side-scrollers, so from Maplestory here are three really fun uses of jumping in combat:
- - adding some movement to normally stationary skills - this is really satisfying because you're bypassing being rooted in place
- - aerial combat - skills that work differently if you're in the air (adds a whole new layer to combat)
- - avoiding ground-based attacks (this was in A1 a little, would love to see more of it - more ground-based attacks from mobs and class skills)
Here's an extreme example of an archer class (Mercedes) holding onto all their upward aerial skills to evade a huge dragon's breath attack:>Bow Types: Long v Short
I want to see what else long-bows will offer. At the moment, having reduced movement speed and attack speed is a huge deficit in almost all situations, so please give us good reasons to charge our attacks.
One simple way to help long-bows stand up against shortbows is to give enemies flat damage reduction stats - thus a flurry of multiple lighter hits is penalised more than slower hard-hitting shots.
But please keep survivability in mind too - short bows have an advantage here because of movement - how will long bows compensate for lower survivability?
>Enemies: Minotaurs
The Minotaurs look good, and they respond appropriately to being hit by an arrow (woo!) - but I was expecting Steven to be knocked onto his feet by that minotaur charge.
Might be a bit early to ask, but can we have a little more tactical combat with these more intelligent mobs? Especially since they have shields - please teach them to block, and give us skills to break an enemy's block (for PvP too)
As for the mages, the animation of their homing projectiles coming out of their staves looks a bit rough - would look better if the momentum of the staff matched the momentum of the projectile produced (alternatively, projectile speed starts at 0 and accelerates over time - I think this option might also feel more "watery"), and if the glowing vfx on the staff "bursts" when the projectile is produced.
>UI
It's great, easy to read, but a suggestion: displaying the labels on all mobs is a really dated look and clutters the screen - they only need to be shown when hovered/targetted/damaged - I suggest turning it off by default so people can turn it on if they want it. (e.g. God of War doesn't even show hp bars unless enemies near the center of screen are in range)
on hand or weapon, now it's just hard to tell you're using a quick shot or just an auto attack. I like everything else.
The sound of arrow is wrong for sure but to me I don't have alternatives for them like I said in my post, if they can make it better and realistic it's great but I think it's really hard to do it.
I don't think that long bow should have longer range than short bow, one long bow and one short bow with same bow power long bow won't shoot far than short bow, long bow is just more easy to draw apart and more easy to make with high bow power or say high poundage, but in fact it's not the higher bow power so the archer can shot more far away it's depends on the skill level of the archer, so like I said in my post that I ignore the fact and not mention that long bow won't shoot far than short bow for fun aspect and pick draw length in stead for devs to use as a reference to make bow as a ranged weapon more fun and more realistic, but I saw many people don't know about these so I decide to pick one post and talk about this a little bit.
And for those really into action combat that want to have real aiming or near to that, I have to say I don't think it's a good idea, to me the action mode Intrepid show us now is on good direction, because the ranged weapon are different to melee weapon if imply a FPS/TPS like aiming to a MMORPG will end up like NEW WORLD combat only few people use ranged weapon as main weapon and that is going too far away as a MMORPG because you can't control you character in video games like what you able to do with you body in real life, for example I can run and shot arrows to who chasing me without keep check the road surface is good or not every 3 steps etc and constantly looking at my opponent and shoot arrows to it, but video games don't do that for me because it's a game not a real word sandbox simulator, so again bring real aiming in a MMORPG is going too far away to me and if it will be a thing then I will arguing about able to running away from opponent and able to shot at it without constantly work on camera no matter in tab or action mode and then there will be other side saying that melee will become useless or something like that, so where is the fun about this real aiming in MMORPG I really don't know, because I thought that as gamer/player we all understand that those things we can't asking for video games to have are basically imply into RNG or something else instead.
update: And I don't like that risk vs reward also involve into tab mode vs action mode level at the beginning I follow this game, I think it's a bad design because if action mode is easy enough to use then it will make tab mode useless and action mode can become a toxic thing, if action mode need real aiming skill to fit the risk vs reward design I don't know how it should to done in melee combat and PVE aspect it just become use action mode to have max dps in PVE use tab mode to remove human error in PVP with just a single button toggle.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
The mobility was really cool to see with a ranged class. The only issue I foresee with the mobility might come with PvP. If ranged classes are too mobile with too many of their attacks, there may not be enough abilities for melee classes to pin down their target. But I'm sure there will be many changes in these areas before launch, so I'm not too concerned.
The abilities themselves were awesome, and the scale of the visual FX were perfect. I particularly loved the leaping airstrike. It added an epic scale to the combat using camera movement and character animation rather than relying on big flashy spell effects.
I agree that ammo is a poor design choice, and think the team should rely on quiver items for ranged weapons. There can be a default basic quiver that doesn't provide any bonuses that just automatically gets stuffed into the slot upon ranged weapon equip. The player can then equip their own quiver, either looted or crafted, that provides some minor bonuses, almost like a ranged attack trinket.
Now, for the main part of my feedback. Tab vs Action. (TL;DR below)
I understand that the team is not trying to provide "Tab and Action" but rather a singular "Hybrid" system. However, I think there needs to be some more explicit communication regarding the nature of this system, and to what extent this Hybrid will take elements of both Tab and Action. What we're seeing now is primarily Tab, as I believe Steven even mentioned. So much so, that I would honestly hesitate to call this a Hybrid.
When we saw the Action Mode in the ranged update, it became very clear that this mode didn't actually change the combat much at all, merely the camera and target selection functionality. The center of the screen changed to a reticle, and this reticle was used to vaguely land a target. As soon as the reticle landed anywhere on the enemy's hitbox, the system would, as the developers described, "soft-lock" onto them. In other words, it's a smart-target system that allows players to tab target an enemy for as long as their reticle is resting anywhere on the enemy's hitbox. It became very clear that there wasn't much control over shot direction, as any action-shot taken by Steven wouldn't actually go for the reticle, but would instead auto-target onto the center of the enemy he was vaguely aiming at. And yes, you can blind-fire in the direction of the reticle, but since it only seems to blind fire when you don't have a target in range, I really don't see that providing enough functionality to justify the system being referred to as "action-style".
Because the action combat system is essentially a smart-lock/unlock program for tab-targeting, with a locked-on target being the end result, I would ask: What's the point of using the action system at all? If the end goal is to target a specific enemy without much control over exactly where the arrow lands, would most people not rather use the basic tab target mode? There can be an argument made that in multi-target scenarios, this "action" mode might be easier to switch between targets, but as a mobile class on the move, your enemies might be crossing in front of one another, which makes directing attacks between enemies using a soft-lock system much more difficult. In such case, If a hard-lock system was available, I'd rather utilize that, allowing me to shoot specific enemies with a flick or two of a finger, no matter who walks in front of them or where the enemy strafes.
A large benefit of a true action-mode is that the player can direct their attacks more specifically, landing headshots or targeting specific focus points (weak points during boss fights, weak structural points on siege weapons, etc) as well as achieving a longer range of fire with arrow drop mechanics that differ based on weapon and character stats. Unfortunately, when both tab target and a true action mode are utilized in the same game, you come to a near impossible task of balancing the two. Inevitably, there will be calls to eliminate one or the other, with action becoming too powerful for skilled ranged-players, and tab target being too rewarding for unskilled ranged-players. This also presents similar issues for balancing ranged and melee combat, since the camera position makes it near impossible for melee players to easily control their attack direction on a single target.
At this point, it seems like the action-mode might be more dynamic and fun during casual, single-player encounters where you're not too worried about dying, but in multi-player encounters, PvP encounters, or more serious engagements where achieving precise damage direction is a high priority, and you have to start juggling group combat dynamics while dodging AoE effects, I don't think many serious players will choose to take the risk of making gameplay more difficult by having to manually aim at their targets when a tab-target system is available. How much of a balance there will be between these two types of content in AoC remains to be seen, but considering it's a PvX game that focuses primarily on group-based content, I don't think this action mode will be chosen over tab-target in the majority of content.
Action vs Tab TL;DR:
It seems the current action mode isn't a true action mode, merely a dynamic target-lock/unlock program plugged into a tab target system. It appears to lack the benefits provided by true action systems that allow precise attack direction, while making it more difficult than a tab target system to consistently land your attacks on moving targets. This is okay imo, since having both tab and true action in the same game is virtually impossible to balance while making both feel rewarding. This dynamic soft-lock system could be fun for simpler content, but assuming the "simpler content" in AoC will be relatively minimal, I don't foresee many players choosing to utilize the action mode on a regular basis, and I don't think its existence should be pushed as a major selling point.
With this in mind, I think the team should move forward with a more specific, targeted description of their combat system. Something like, "The combat in Ashes of Creation is primarily a tab-target system with dynamic soft-lock aim functionality."
If I'm incorrect, and there truly are some real benefits to using the action-mode combat over tab-targeting in large scale / PvP content, I would like to see them in action in future streams. The September demonstration and Steven's response to this question on the stream were fairly vague, and didn't really convince me that the action mode holds up as a serious combat option when players are provided with tab-target at the same time.
Overall, I loved the ranger demo in isolation but I don't think it will stack up when no longer isolated. It was all about the non-pressure and non-danger invoked by the gameplay loop.
As far as the mechanics shown, I was far less enthused. For a hybrid system, I didn’t see much if any action but a glorified/enhanced tab targeting with soft lock and an action camera view that’s not much different than what we saw at the end of Alpha 1 (and is lifted almost entirely from another game).
The game is supposed to be about risk vs reward and at this time, I see very little reward and just additional risk for opting for action mode. No, being able to free aim is not a sufficient benefit to sway anything when tab mode basically guarantees you’ll always hit so why bother with anything that means you might actually miss.
We’ve always known the game will be more focused on tab and I fully expected going into this presentation to see 80%+ tab abilities. What I am, however, disappointed to see is that even skills like “Snipe” are tab based and require no aiming or effort. Where’s the risk? Where is the skill expression? Guess combat will boil down to who attacks first and has better gear and stats. Trying to use an ability that requires a different weapon you don’t have equipped? No problem, the game will auto switch for you…
It seems like we are moving away from the firm stance of “this game isn’t going to be for everyone” and trying to cater to lowest common denominator, especially after some feedback based on the more action based melee showcase and the open water pvp announcement that were turning away a certain part of the player base that wants the genre to never change “because that’s how it’s always been done” while simultaneously complaining that all the games are boring and stale.
If you told me a few months ago that basic melee will be more action based and require more skill to execute than ranger attacks, I would have laughed.
Daoc tab system was completely different though, ive moved on from those days (they were good days though) but action is so much better than the auto attacks of this system. You would also know how impossible it was to heal anyone when the caster or archer assist train was targeting you was in Daoc, it will be the same in this game, at least in Daoc early days you had ammo and needed to change ammo type for whoever your targeting, you also had to the standing still while shooting, this game will be just tab/assist spam auto attacks press 1 2 3 4 and rinse repeat while kiting backwards.
I didn't notice a quiver on the Ranger. I think it would be really cool if the quiver was worn on the hip, instead of on the back as is popular in most media today. Since you guys (the devs) seem to have a great concern for detail in everything you do, it would make sense to have the quiver on the hip instead of the back, since that is how archers in reality wear them. So it would be awesome to see this represented in a game, even though it is a fantasy setting.
The mobility that we saw from the shortbow is pretty much what I look for most in that type of ranged gameplay. If I'm playing a mobility based loadout, then I want to be hyper mobile. On the other hand if I'm playing something super ranged based, then I'd like to see super long range with low mobility.
Basically just having the basic range weapons attack play heavily into the type of play style I'm aiming for.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Want to see:
The use of planning ahead to set traps/stage the battlefield for their own advantage. Also hoping we see Rangers being able to track enemies, or see them coming from further away. When I think about the ranger fantasy, I think about somebody that has spent lots of time out in nature, learning how to track their prey and set up snares/animal traps. So seeing that translated into the battlefield would be cool.
Don't want to see:
Not wanting to see hard roots. I would rather see Ranger survivability come from their exploitation of range/mobility than from completely stopping mobility of their enemy. Slows in limited amounts or requiring advanced planning could be cool to see, but really not wanting to see an unavoidable kite fest.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
The idea behind Volley from WoW, Missile Rain from AA, or Barrage from GW2. Basically just providing archers with a way to perform a volley on an area and cause AoE damage is always something that feels good to me in games.
Not an MMO, but an example from an FPS is Hanzo from Overwatch. His sonic arrow was a really cool idea, as well as his scatter arrow. Abilities that will allow you to use the terrain to your advantage, like banking a scatter shot off a wall in a hallway to cause maximum damage is a cool idea that allows the ranger a way to be deadly even in an enclosed environment. The utility from the sonic arrow is something that I thought was unique and cool.
Not really an attack, but just an ability: mobility based escape mechanics are really cool, examples could be Disengage from WoW, or that backflip thing archers did in AA.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Excited:
I absolutely loved the ability that caused the Ranger to leap over the enemies and rain attacks down onto them. That is the type of thing that I hope we see more of - abilities that really bring the feel of the class and weapon combo to life. I think that the high mobility theme of the shortbow was awesome, and I really hope that we see more of that. On the other end of the spectrum, I hope that we see more long range focus on the longbow. I think it would be cool to see longbows get more abilities that locked them down in place, but allowed them to reach out and hit enemies way beyond the range of other classes. Something like the Sniper vs the Rifleman.
Overall, I'm really excited to see where the team takes the combat. I love the fast paced and dynamic feel that the leap ability gave the combat, and I hope we see more of that. Abilities like that which can help raise the skill ceiling are really cool.
Concerns:
I hope we have enough abilities and resources for those abilities where auto attacks are just woven in supplementally, rather than composing the bulk of our combat. The basic attacks for the short bow didn't seem like they felt super impactful, which I guess makes sense because they are just basic attacks. However, I think that maybe if we had abilities to augment our basic attacks, then they would feel more impactful and important, rather than just being something you spam. For instance, just as a random example, if there was an ability that caused your next couple basic attacks to slow the target(s) hit, then it could make your basic attack feel much more strategic and useful, rather than just being something you mindlessly spam.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
I would love to have an spec or a enchant to my weapon to make it possible to proc lightnings (thunderbolts not sure how to say this in English properly) and combo this with a high ask speed to make good dps. Nothing weird or too much (something like maelstrom in the moba game Dota2).
Also I would love to see a skill where the archer shoots a cone of arrows to give him some aoe damage in his rotation.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I want to see a good dps with some skills to reposition like airstrike but lower mov speed than my enemies to feel the gap closing as I make huge dps and feel the sense of urgency of bursting them before they get me.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I love what was shown and I'm really curious to see how many different types of procs we can have and how we can play around them.
As for tropes, rangers are the masters of the wilderness. It would be cool to see buffs for themselves and others depending on the biome they're in. Something like the ability to apply or amplify alchemical buffs of a certain variety (even themed as a skill) to your teammates. Party wide sunscreen in the desert, for instance.
The things I'm most excited about are how nicely the different targetting modes work with the ranged weapon attacks. I said it best on Reddit so I'll skip that here. What I just noticed on my big screen tv viewing of the video was that in action combat mode, it selects targets nearest the retical and shoots them.. rather than firing exclusively at the retical. That's a very good idea in my book, because it appeals to players with lesser physical aptitudes for fast paced combat, while also allowing those with the aptitude to pull off some higher level moves.
Very very happy with both weapon attack videos so far, thirsty for alpha 2, keep up the stellar work my guys.
1. Targeting: Love this, both action and tab look great. I think lock-on is perfect and disagree with some players desire for headshots/FPS style gameplay. While that could be fun, it would be too difficult to balance, slow down production, limit cool boss fights, etc. This is an MMORPG, not a single player experience. What you currently have is close to perfect - I think.
2. Auto Attack: I need to feel this in game. I like the idea for deeper weapon customization/skill trees & understand your intent - but this is a big turn off for many people. Please explain/show this more!
3. Abilities & Animations: Look awesome, love it. The enemies are a bit on the robotic side, but this is pre A2 - just needs a bit more polish imo. The sounds and environment are amazing.
4. Weapons: Love it, perfect. Need more information about switching weapons in combat & how many weapons (and types) you have at once. Still unclear after watching 5-6 times...
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Overall i am verry pleased with what i saw - looking forward to testing in A2!