I am verry IMPRESSED.. Its almost like the best action targeting game ESO for me! If there are some one more mod that you could add, its like soft/hard targeting mode, whit this i mean, when crosshair scan a target hard lock it and if scans another enemy target also hardlock it. This mod should be like changing hard locked targets with the crosshair and belive me this will be used constantly!!
I am a big fan of ranged combat where it feels meaty, and it sounds meaty. The sound in the ranger demo was great, and I loved the sound! The abilities looks really cool too, and I'm also a fan of actual Ranger, being able to do actual long range shots.
Very Impressed with how the bows functioned as well as the variation between the way they functioned.
The Longbow attacked looked impactful, and I can imagine short bow rangers being a fun hard to pin down style.
Love the concept of arrows not passing through enemies and terrain, will create a need to position properly.
Great choice to not go with no ammunition, Hated managing arrows.
I don't really have much to criticize here besides the longbow seemed outclassed greatly DPS wise from the short bow?
Excellent reveal, excited for next month
Don't let the vocal minority fool you.
After further thinking, here is some feedback on what I believe could be the a happy medium amidst the whole controversy of Tab vs Action.
My proposal (to be taken and considered and further developed if needed):
- Basic attack = tab targeted
- Skills (Snipe, Aerial Assault, templated attacks) = must be aimed in action camera mode
This way you keep a basic tab target core and still have some (or all) skills requiring some level of mouse dexterity. No headshots however, that's just silly in an MMO, especially one where races have such wildly different hitboxes and sliders. We don't wanna end up in a situation like AION where people made characters the size of ants, because they'd be impossible to hit in PvP (or they'd make their head smaller to avoid headshots).
A hard lock being ON with the reticle would then only allow a skill to hit the intended target when 2 different players or mobs may be overlapping to some extent (basically not allowing the systems to erroneously select a different target when they're both within the reticle), and not being a real homing beacon for your attacks.
Wouldn't it suck to have to switch camera modes everytime you use a skill though? Or do you imply for the action camera to be used constantly with basic attacks being tab targeted and skills being action combat, making it so the switch between tab targeting and actually aiming is easier since you're already in the aiming mode?
Edit: I personally do hope for more action abilities than just the non-damaging and AoE ones, but they'd have to make the switch between tab targeting camera mode and using the action ability in the reticle camera mode not tedious. An idea for this is to also be able to fire the skillshots from the tab targeting camera mode in the form of a ground decal that moves with your cursor, similar to skillshots in League of Legends.
After further thinking, here is some feedback on what I believe could be the a happy medium amidst the whole controversy of Tab vs Action.
My proposal (to be taken and considered and further developed if needed):
- Basic attack = tab targeted
- Skills (Snipe, Aerial Assault, templated attacks) = must be aimed in action camera mode
This way you keep a basic tab target core and still have some (or all) skills requiring some level of mouse dexterity. No headshots however, that's just silly in an MMO, especially one where races have such wildly different hitboxes and sliders. We don't wanna end up in a situation like AION where people made characters the size of ants, because they'd be impossible to hit in PvP (or they'd make their head smaller to avoid headshots).
A hard lock being ON with the reticle would then only allow a skill to hit the intended target when 2 different players or mobs may be overlapping to some extent (basically not allowing the systems to erroneously select a different target when they're both within the reticle), and not being a real homing beacon for your attacks.
Wouldn't it suck to have to switch camera modes every time you use a skill though? Or do you imply for the action camera to be used constantly with basic attacks being tab targeted and skills being action combat, making it so the switch between tab targeting and actually aiming is easier since you're already in the aiming mode?
This is the dilemma with the current system. I have to admit it's pretty disheartening to see people saying the action and tab modes are good where they are atm, which is such a huge disadvantage and polarizing for action mode over tab. This pretty much comes down to people not understanding game design and balance elements, which is to be expected as the base of those responding with feedback are players, not designers with game balance in mind.
Overall, based on what we have seen so far, tab mode is superior in every regard. Being able to have a target locked, and just flicking your camera angle towards the target to execute a skill is a reality of tab combat. Followed by the ability to run away full speed, back towards the target, and rinse and repeating. Whereas action users who have to consistently have their view towards the target and aim everything, with a movement penalty backing up is a reality. Once again as stated previously in my prior posts, there is no advantage for being in action mode. Which is precisely the problem, there should be no advantage to action mode, and none for tab either, but with the way the hybrid system is in use for the archer, there is no workaround for this...as the nature of tab and target lock requires no investment needed in positioning and aiming, and offers a enormous boon to tab users.
I noticed a few people stating to make action more more rewarding with extra damage...This is the wrong method honestly. There should be no advantage for either mode, just level playing field for all. The only way I can see a compromise and actually make a system that works without any flaws, is having a complete aim based system, with target locking to avoid target confusion in clustered fights. I've already detailed out the system in my previous post, so will leave that portion there. Considering the melee showcase, I believe target locking and single target skill dps is already intended, as I find it hard to believe an assassin will end up having a backstab skill that is AOE and not single target. If you have to lock a single target to execute an assassinate style skill in melee combat as is, the same method of playstyle can be used for the ranged classes. The advantage for this, you'll have one cohesive system for the entire game, and not a difficult scenario where you are trying to balance between tab and action.
This is something I'm completely ok with, but doubt others would be. Especially considering how easy and stale tab target combat has become, as action combat just feels much more exciting as you are invested into every action and decision you make, where as tab you zoom out and just play more like an RTS, which again, is just upsetting.
After further thinking, here is some feedback on what I believe could be the a happy medium amidst the whole controversy of Tab vs Action.
My proposal (to be taken and considered and further developed if needed):
- Basic attack = tab targeted
- Skills (Snipe, Aerial Assault, templated attacks) = must be aimed in action camera mode
This way you keep a basic tab target core and still have some (or all) skills requiring some level of mouse dexterity. No headshots however, that's just silly in an MMO, especially one where races have such wildly different hitboxes and sliders. We don't wanna end up in a situation like AION where people made characters the size of ants, because they'd be impossible to hit in PvP (or they'd make their head smaller to avoid headshots).
A hard lock being ON with the reticle would then only allow a skill to hit the intended target when 2 different players or mobs may be overlapping to some extent (basically not allowing the systems to erroneously select a different target when they're both within the reticle), and not being a real homing beacon for your attacks.
Wouldn't it suck to have to switch camera modes every time you use a skill though? Or do you imply for the action camera to be used constantly with basic attacks being tab targeted and skills being action combat, making it so the switch between tab targeting and actually aiming is easier since you're already in the aiming mode?
This is the dilemma with the current system. I have to admit it's pretty disheartening to see people saying the action and tab modes are good where they are atm, which is such a huge disadvantage and polarizing for action mode over tab. This pretty much comes down to people not understanding game design and balance elements, which is to be expected as the base of those responding with feedback are players, not designers with game balance in mind.
Overall, based on what we have seen so far, tab mode is superior in every regard. Being able to have a target locked, and just flicking your camera angle towards the target to execute a skill is a reality of tab combat. Followed by the ability to run away full speed, back towards the target, and rinse and repeating. Whereas action users who have to consistently have their view towards the target and aim everything, with a movement penalty backing up is a reality. Once again as stated previously in my prior posts, there is no advantage for being in action mode. Which is precisely the problem, there should be no advantage to action mode, and none for tab either, but with the way the hybrid system is in use for the archer, there is no workaround for this...as the nature of tab and target lock requires no investment needed in positioning and aiming, and offers a enormous boon to tab users.
I noticed a few people stating to make action more more rewarding with extra damage...This is the wrong method honestly. There should be no advantage for either mode, just level playing field for all. The only way I can see a compromise and actually make a system that works without any flaws, is having a complete aim based system, with target locking to avoid target confusion in clustered fights. I've already detailed out the system in my previous post, so will leave that portion there. Considering the melee showcase, I believe target locking and single target skill dps is already intended, as I find it hard to believe an assassin will end up having a backstab skill that is AOE and not single target. If you have to lock a single target to execute an assassinate style skill in melee combat as is, the same method of playstyle can be used for the ranged classes. The advantage for this, you'll have one cohesive system for the entire game, and not a difficult scenario where you are trying to balance between tab and action.
This is something I'm completely ok with, but doubt others would be. Especially considering how easy and stale tab target combat has become, as action combat just feels much more exciting as you are invested into every action and decision you make, where as tab you zoom out and just play more like an RTS, which again, is just upsetting.
I think what you're missing is that a ton of people will just flat out disagree with you in terms of action vs. tab difficulty, depth, and excitement. Tab is simply a different type of skill from action, and there are a ton of people who love the gameplay and strategic depth that you get from tab (ever heard of a game called WoW?).
Played a ton of Archeage (tab based and a big part of what Ashes is based around), and I can assure you it takes a lot of skill to play well - if you disagree, feel free to go try the 1v1 arena and see if it's too easy for you...
Some people just don't like to have to aim. There are plenty of FPS out there - even FPS MMOs - if that's what you like. But don't drag that into a game where they've already said they want to lean towards tab.
•Overall this looks great. Targeting in tab/action seems neat and function smoothly.
•Strain sound from the bow is weird, annoying and unrealistic, what is this? lol
•Arrow impact and air sound is decent, more focus should be put there to make it even more satisfying imo.
•Hold/charge arrow shots? Big dislike. Never feels good when you can't optimise damage to time, release too early you waste damage, release too late(after it's fully charged) you waste time and damage.
Would much rather just have longer cast time or some kind of build up/combo system for bigger hits.
I think what you're missing is that a ton of people will just flat out disagree with you in terms of action vs. tab difficulty, depth, and excitement. Tab is simply a different type of skill from action, and there are a ton of people who love the gameplay and strategic depth that you get from tab (ever heard of a game called WoW?).
Played a ton of Archeage (tab based and a big part of what Ashes is based around), and I can assure you it takes a lot of skill to play well - if you disagree, feel free to go try the 1v1 arena and see if it's too easy for you...
Some people just don't like to have to aim. There are plenty of FPS out there - even FPS MMOs - if that's what you like. But don't drag that into a game where they've already said they want to lean towards tab.
Just because the larger portion of the community have been exposed to tab, longer than action, doesn't make it the go to choice. Heck, I started 20+ years ago and got my share of tab targeting MMO's and action based over the years. Lineage 2 being by far my favorite MMO experience, which is also one of Steven's biggest influences, I mean heck, the corruption system is a complete one for one from L2. If you believe staring at an opponents health bar and waiting for a specific skill indicator to pop up for an interrupt is considered "exciting", we'll agree to disagree. Now not all action combat is good, BDO was a rabbit on crack speed fest, and NW is tailored more around fast FPS reactions since it requires pinpoint accuracy and headshots, but that doesn't mean that has to be the only options for action combat. Tera did a much better job on executing a cohesive combat experience, slower paced gameplay that allowed for a healthy action scenario, which also allowing the ability to read your opponent in a healthier way compared to the previous mentions, and plan accordingly....It was just unfortunate the game literally had nothing else at all to make it worthwhile.
I mean heck, bit off topic, but WoW is the reason the genre has dug itself into a hole for so long. So many developers were trying to make the next WoW, catering to the design philosophy of a developer trying to make everything easier, and milk their base with a casual mindset. Which they are still attempting to do, with their community rebelling. I doubt to see the benefit for a game that introduced dungeon finder queuing, solo play, do everything yourself, faction vs faction community separation, etc. So even though it may have been extremely popular when it launched, that was mostly due to it being a Blizzard game, and its massive fanbase. If it was from a different random publisher/developer, it would never have been as big as it became.
Back on topic, the main factor though, there is a path to make an actual hybrid system that ties both elements into one cohesive system...Compared to having two systems that have disadvantages and advantages when compared to one another depending on the class style you are playing.
I don't believe it's a bad thing to try to evolve the genre while pulling from the past. Heck, that's Steven and Intrepid's main goal. Bringing back the community and risk vs reward aspect of MMO's...Not a copy paste, as we can clearly see from the results of their ground breaking node system, and evolution of how the worlds will be developed by the players in an MMO. Not just your standard linear design of Town A, to Town B, to Town C quest node based progression.
The fact that they are trying to make a hybrid system, something that the community has asked for, considering the previous Alpha 1 combat system and prior being looked on in a negative light, which was solely tab target...Yes it lacked polish, but times are changing, would not be a bad idea to push the genre to the next rung in the ladder when it comes to combat, rather than use a system that has been deemed as outdated, just for the sake of comfort...
With Asmon hyping up the game, exposing it to his viewers, I'm expecting a large WoW player base to try the game, but sad to say, I believe most will end up leaving, as this won't be your typical raid night, dungeon boss PvE fest. Something Asmon hasn't seemed to realize yet based on the takes I've seen from him so far. In all reality, we the players, are the content....Which is what L2 and Archeage executed well on.
I'm all about mechanics and sadly the bow Isn't aim based like in New World for example, It's mostly about tab targetting, it lacks that skill based layer that could differantiate good bow players vs. the others.
A great bow player must be mainly someone that aims/tracks better his opponents than the other rangers.
Excluding travel distances and movement predictions since the game at this stage doesn't seem to include it, and i'd be ok with or without this mechanic as long as you need to aim at your opponent to hit him as well as having your crosshair on his head to headshot him, in conclusion the bow has to be FPS like.
The fact that shooting an arrow 2 meters away from your ennemy in the free aimed mode makes you hit your target is regretful. You could miss shots and still get rewarded for it ... what's the point of playing a shooting class then ?
Run and jump around pressing semi autolocked on target left clicks and abilities like a hunter in WoW ?
It doesn't seem challenging enough to me for a game that aims to change the way MMO's are played.
I also hope that animation canceling is gonna be a thing to have some sort of fake out possibility, maybe dodges will make it possible ? Otherwise the feeling of the game in PvP will be less complex and skillful.
Tab targeting should never be a thing for a shooting class, it's boring and the skill cap is going to be very low.
That class needs a unique gameplay.
Get rid of the tab targetting.
Having that and a free aiming mode, people are going to chose the easy way being tab targetting, that's gonna kill this spec and very few will play it.
And please work on those hitboxes, make them the size of the character you're facing.
from Paris with love
6
Options
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
General feedback from the Live Stream, whilst I am aware of the intent to have the UI customizable, feedback regardless:
UI
PLAYER NAME TAG
Positioning good
Overall Scale / Length / Text size – appropriate
HP Text – this clips the boundary. Making the text smaller would make less legible. Suggest make the bars a little thicker for greater number clarity.
MOB NAME TAG
Similar comments to Player name tag
Text left justified feels a bit odd, prefer center justified
MOB TAG
Text above mob not readily legible.
Font appears to be different font to other fonts, may not be, but hard to read clearly.
Typology font sizes might need review for overall template
Might need re-work
PLAYER CHARACTER TAG
Text size / color clear – nil change required.
MINI MAP
Map
Not a fan of mini maps, would prefer nil but it is what it is.
Style an improvement from last iteration – appears promising
Dimensional proportions appear incongruous to the overall screen, this might need rework.
Compass – odd to have small and RHS of screen, would prefer centred and not map related
Mobs – nice to see on maps, prefer players not on map
Dark patch under map – not sure of purpose – perhaps reduce
SKILL BARS
Size appears a little small
If there are more skills than 6, like to see blank bars
INDIVIDUAL SKILLS – in skill bar
Reset flash on when ready, greyed when not. This does not provide an indication of reset time/duration until re-usable.
Prefer to see a dial / clock style reset where the skill is greyed out and a dial gradually colors it back to full, so you can visually see the skill refreshing.
FOLIAGE
Nice coming along. Noticed that scale of vegetation is low foliage, med trees and tall trees.
Little foliage goes over thigh height, would like to see areas of the landscape have taller scrub for both ambush and hiding capability.
Thanks for the sneak peak at ranged combat! The movement in combat came across as really fluid and I liked that certain abilities root in place while casting and others are more free flowing. Environment, lighting and enemy modeling looks awesome!!
I'm going to jump on the band wagon that the current showcase of action vs tab targeting seemed disjointed. That said, I feel like you are working in the right direction to deliver some immersive combat, eg relevant basic attacks, reticle placement determining priority tab cycling. In terms of targeting, my two extremes which I didn't love were WOW sleepy tab targetting and new world (working my ass off to retain a target, missing often while raging at melee meat heads getting hits on EVERY target standing remotely near them).
Is it possible to have the active combat perspective define an arc, and targets are only tab targettable in that area? Could allow for some class playstyle differentiation, eg 45 degree global arc size with modifiers: ranger primary class -20%, short bow -10%, long bow -20%, class passive choice between +20% arc vs +20% damage, Cleric secondary class +30%.
A couple extra things I'm keen to see re ranged combat in future sneak peaks.
1) collision: despite my best attempts at having selected a hardlock target, that pesky tank is in my way. I would like to see the tank absorbing hits, or even better standing in front of me! Could give tanks the positional gameplay presence needed in pvp. Maybe my tab target snaps to the tank on taunt.
2) class synergies: would love to see an ability in some epic large scale battles where rangers band together and paint the battle field with a massive aoe zone. Something that can't be ignored. Equivalents for other classes could be tanks making shield wall, summoner opening portals to the enemy backline.
I think some skill effects are too dense, the ideal for me would be to adapt the wow classic soft but colorful style to the game. The minotaurs Buble that distort the air, the escape spell with the 3 shots that make too much noise on the ground.
Just go softer, in my opinion.
I like the direction of the air strike skill. I hope there are a variety of skills for each class like this one. I feel like the snipe skill could have been a free aim skill instead of a target lock skill as well. Over all great
I got a question and a request.
First the question: If arrows are projectiles, will they hit a target that is in front of my tabbed target even in tab mode? I really like this idea!
Second the request: I'm sure it's only missing because of alpha but it wasn't metioned in the video iirc. Please add arrows to the skill animations. Atm the ranger is fireing thin air from his bow and the emerging projectile itself is also lacking an arrow at it's center. Plus it would be really awesome if arrows would stick inside the mob or scenerie (purely visual).
Encourage the use of targeted combat mode by giving a minor buff to damage (3% or 5%). How large of a buff you get from this should be different between PVP and PVE content, since hitting a PVP target will be much harder. An alternative is to have certain attacks only usable through targeted combat that tend to do slightly more dps.
Adding weak points on monsters and players would make for really fun gameplay, such as player headshots or shooting at the gem embedded on a creature's back.
Should arrows be able to fall down to the ground when shot blindly while in action mode or should projectiles just disappear while traveling in mid-air? If arrows do have a gravity effect on them then should arrows be able to fall down after being shot in the air? For example, IF a long bow can travel a max of 30 meters horizontally before hitting the ground. Then if a player shoots up into the air/vertically, it should be able to go 30 meters or less. I'm fine with arrows or other range attacks going half the distance when shot in the air. So if player 1 is hiding behind a rock, player 2(while in action mode) should be able to shoot an arrow vertically at an angle where the arrow goes up in the air above the rock and come back down hitting player 1? This would be a skill shot even if there is a soft lock in action mode since player 2 wouldn't be aiming directly at player 1. The action combat range players that wanted a new world like gameplay gets an edge with a high skill ceiling that won't be over powered and over used.
My first mmo character was a ranger in eq1… kiting grimfeather for the first time is still a great memory. Still mostly play ranger/archer in most mmos. So I was very excited for this update!
Great direction so far. Hit all the basics from my standpoint. I love the short bow/longbow differences. Really need to see the melee options to get a full picture for what pvp will be like, but love the direction so far.
the hybrid direction for targeting I think is perfect. I dislike pure tab lock archer games. Makes rangers play like casters almost always.
I like hitboxes (head/body) and bonuses for pure aim to really bring player skill into it as long as you can stop the aimbots. For example:
pure aim mode headshot +10%
Pure aim mode body shot +5%
Softlock +1-2%
Tabtarget 0%
Amounts for example only. Just something that rewards higher miss risk with reward damage. If the hit box doesn’t work, then the low probability random super high headshot damage rolls are always fun. 1/1000 snipe insta kill is also always exciting…
For a gameplay standpoint, it looked really good. I like it when rangers are about keeping distance with root / slows plus evasion as the primary solo attack mode. In large group pve, big damage aggro inducing shots vs slower sustained shots to manage Dps is great. The softlock aim targeting feels like it will be perfect for the massive pvp battles. Sniping clerics in the backrow will definitely add some solid variability to sieges.
Other stuff for a ranger:
1. tracking! All classes tracking is lame. No ranger tracking is lame. Ranger/ranger should be best tracking, all ranger primary good tracking, all subclasses tracking basics. Also tracking resistance would be good as well for pvp…
2. Stealth. Forest stealth best, other stealths degrade based on environment.
3. Speed. Short bow was perfect example of that. Rangers should have some kind of speed bonus based on terrain or environment. A ranger should be hard to see and fast moving through the forest, but out of place in a city.
4. Gathering bonus. Some kind of bonus gathering materials… the keen eye shouldn’t just work on tracks…
All in all great work. Fired up for alpha 2! (Whenever it is- super on board with the take your time direction…)
I fear that tab targeting will be superior.
And that people won't accept ppl who favors action combat in dungeon group, raids, etc.
But I really like what I saw. It looked good, responsive, weighty and sounded amazing.
You nailed ranged combat for me. I always play as a ranged character but usually end up switching to caster because ranged fighting doesn't feel dynamic. I've always felt like a turret just standing there. The ability to move while fighting the dynamic leap into the air. There's so much more mobility. I'm so impressed every month and so excited for alpha 2.
What is important in the basic ranged weapon attack for me is the ability to make it more interesting and it not just be a filler attack. Can I add a poison to the basic attack, can I make it pierce armor for a little bit by having a specific skill, how will I be able to improve my arrows to hit my enemies harder.
Something I would like to see for ranged combat is traps that can be placed for when enemies get into melee range. Something quick that you can set up for that bit of extra damage and possibly rooting in the trap as well to help keep your distance. I have always felt that ranged has a huge disadvantage as soon as melee comes close.
Something I don't want to see is the class becoming super niche. Too many MMO's focus solely on one aspect of the class for a build which makes you feel like you aren't reaching the full potential. An example would be being a beast master having all of your abilities focus solely on your pet. It makes the ranger redundant. I have seen the same thing with trap specialists where all of the skills are traps so if anyone stays out of range of your traps well then you are screwed in combat or the trap set up is too long and so you can't quickly use an ability to boost your odds in a fight. Another problem in other games I have seen is making too many of the ranger abilities single target focus so much so that if you get into a mob fight you die if you can't get out. I think the extra mobility probably solves this problem but I would love to see some interesting AOE abilities for the ranger.
However, not what I heard: as someone with High-Frequency Hearing Loss and Tinnitus the sounds triggered my tinnitus and also the loud arrow noise was painful to hear at a low volume. People probably like the sounds so maybe some kind of pitch limiting option or sound pack would be good for users with similar disabilities.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
I have played a wide range of classes since the mid-90s. Ranged classes, when done right, should feel balanced (competitively) with other classes (duh...), but I love RANGE (distance) choices that actually matter and impact gameplay. Close-range vs long-range (distance) should have an impact on the combat. I also think that being the "lighter" and "mobile" (feeling) class is traditionally desired- so that will usually mean that we need mechanisms for evasion/movement, and CC abilities to maintain our desired distances. The term 'kiting' comes to mind. Your team seems to be on the right track, here...I loved what I saw thus far. The sounds and impact were amazing. The animations were smooth. The mobility was great!
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not want to see?
I like to see rangers being the desired 'range, single-target DPS' class. I think that's what a lot of traditional RPG players like, but I also think positioning, CC, and various status effect spells could add additional layers of flavor to the archetype. Again, I think your team showed some glimpses of this during the demo but would love to see more of this. I know this was a "basic attack showcase" but I hope the Ranger archetype gets to do a lot more burst single-target damamge than what was displayed. This will give the archetype a more desirable appeal in the long term. What I DON'T like is when games try to make the rangers a "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none". This makes the class seem dull and doesn't seem to have a special place in the late-game groups, etc. This usually leaves the ranger viewed as a seemingly boring, vanilla, class that people shy away from trying in a lot of modern MMOs.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
I like the "impact" of the arrows in BDO.
I like the movement and mobility skills in BDO and GW2.
I like the ability to have some melee options if I ever get stuck fighting melee range, like the weapon options in GW2 (even if I prefer to CC and control the distance of the enemy). Having daggers, or short swords on a ranger adds flavor and adds a dynamic option for players to problem-solve with.
Not to exclude any examples: I really like how some modern shooters allow their longest ranged weapons, like sniper rifles, to really take advantage of the distance, burst damage (one-shot kills), and player skill- while keeping them a risky choice by making them 'low rate of fire' (usually), low carrying capacity (the equivalent of two-handed carrying capacity), and risky misses (difficulty of success).
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
LOVED the airstrike ability. It solves a couple of challenges rangers face (mobility/positioning and distance). Makes me excited to see abilities like this in the other classes/archetypes.
I understand the compromise of the reticle-view, and I applaud the team for choosing a direction, but it wasn't clear to me what incentive or benefit there is to 'choose' the reticle-view, other than 'play-style'. It just seems disadvantageous and less efficient to choose reticle view and not autolocking with tab targeting. Suggestion: Maybe offer some kind of incentive to choose reticle-view (risk vs reward). I understand we don't want to imbalance PVE (boss fights, etc), but perhaps allowing a larger 'effective range' mechanism for reticle players would be a good incentive to risk missing those long shots. Something like that. Something that wouldn't just be the default choice in PVE, but something that rewards player skill, and rewards player risk.
Recommendations
I would recommend for the bows to have a quiver. Not just pulling arrows randomly from the air.
or
A magical summoning of arrows...
Animation Ideas:
If going the quiver route it would be cool for the animation to pull an arrow from the quiver before being shot. Rapid shoot have him pull three arrows etc.
or
If magical route. Have vines from the bow or your hand extend to make an arrow.
I am super excited about the direction this is heading. I thought the abilities looked cool, movement appeared fluid. I am starting to see the vision of how skill trees and augments might be used on abilities going forward.
hybrid combat - I personally really like this direction, but suspect the action combat people will be disappointed a little. (part of why they want action combat is because they are good at aiming and want to shit on people who are not, in other words, they dont just want action combat for them, they want everyone to be in action combat). I like how you can lock targets in with an action camera but still use your abilities like you are in tab... or you can activate them with a soft target and stay in action. I have some questions about changing targets, etc. but I am sure those will be obvious when we get to play.
In short, great job. I cannot wait to play it and then I am sure we will all reassess our feedback accordingly.
Stoked on the hybrid system, imo Tab targeting is essential in order to compete with melee and have good mobility. I like the idea of more range or bonus damage for accurate action targeting. I am a longtime mage player and hope the range abilities of that class will be just as fun, even so, the Ranger class looks awesome and something that I might like to try.
Tell Steve not be such a noob and die so much next time 😂
It was not very clear when the charged shot was fully charged. Would be nice to have a half way marker also.
Plus the charge time could be a bit longer. And maybe have an increased cooldown for the skill if you don't charge it to full.
But the thing that left me wanting the most had to do more with the NPC's the ranger was fighting. TTK was too fast honestly. And not because of too much damage but because NPC took too long to use the proper skills like heal and shield , and their skills where too inconsequential. The shield was too weak , better to have a stronger one with a time limit. And the heal was meh at best.
Not to mention that NPCs where too static. They just sat there. I was hoping actually for more than just roaming. To have NPC for the factions that actually have a role , like patrolling, gathering , raiding player locations. Hell , hunting players and other npc factions. But not sit around like it is Lineage 2 , 2002. Hopefully that is only because it is early in development.
I would like to see better AI for NPC. Like calling for help from surrounding NPC , or running towards other NPC if they see they start loosing a fight.
NPC healing each other , or throwing buffs at each other.
I am not a big fan of the kind of combat where you mow down npc. You do get an adrenaline rush initially , but it gets boring fast. And you end up not actually playing the game. But mindless grinding , while watching some series on netflix.
Yours truly personally liked the details that Steven and Margaret went over about the differences in the tab-target and action-fired abilities. It's really, REALLY great to see the difference and to get to know the swap-ability between the two; This was really great insight, after wondering about these systems for so long.
I typically prefer the ranged combat, in MMOs. Just too much chasing people around, as a melee, in most games - so just figured to throw in my 2 cents on how I liked the video, itself. Good work!
Comments
The Longbow attacked looked impactful, and I can imagine short bow rangers being a fun hard to pin down style.
Love the concept of arrows not passing through enemies and terrain, will create a need to position properly.
Great choice to not go with no ammunition, Hated managing arrows.
I don't really have much to criticize here besides the longbow seemed outclassed greatly DPS wise from the short bow?
Excellent reveal, excited for next month
Don't let the vocal minority fool you.
Wouldn't it suck to have to switch camera modes everytime you use a skill though? Or do you imply for the action camera to be used constantly with basic attacks being tab targeted and skills being action combat, making it so the switch between tab targeting and actually aiming is easier since you're already in the aiming mode?
Edit: I personally do hope for more action abilities than just the non-damaging and AoE ones, but they'd have to make the switch between tab targeting camera mode and using the action ability in the reticle camera mode not tedious. An idea for this is to also be able to fire the skillshots from the tab targeting camera mode in the form of a ground decal that moves with your cursor, similar to skillshots in League of Legends.
This is the dilemma with the current system. I have to admit it's pretty disheartening to see people saying the action and tab modes are good where they are atm, which is such a huge disadvantage and polarizing for action mode over tab. This pretty much comes down to people not understanding game design and balance elements, which is to be expected as the base of those responding with feedback are players, not designers with game balance in mind.
Overall, based on what we have seen so far, tab mode is superior in every regard. Being able to have a target locked, and just flicking your camera angle towards the target to execute a skill is a reality of tab combat. Followed by the ability to run away full speed, back towards the target, and rinse and repeating. Whereas action users who have to consistently have their view towards the target and aim everything, with a movement penalty backing up is a reality. Once again as stated previously in my prior posts, there is no advantage for being in action mode. Which is precisely the problem, there should be no advantage to action mode, and none for tab either, but with the way the hybrid system is in use for the archer, there is no workaround for this...as the nature of tab and target lock requires no investment needed in positioning and aiming, and offers a enormous boon to tab users.
I noticed a few people stating to make action more more rewarding with extra damage...This is the wrong method honestly. There should be no advantage for either mode, just level playing field for all. The only way I can see a compromise and actually make a system that works without any flaws, is having a complete aim based system, with target locking to avoid target confusion in clustered fights. I've already detailed out the system in my previous post, so will leave that portion there. Considering the melee showcase, I believe target locking and single target skill dps is already intended, as I find it hard to believe an assassin will end up having a backstab skill that is AOE and not single target. If you have to lock a single target to execute an assassinate style skill in melee combat as is, the same method of playstyle can be used for the ranged classes. The advantage for this, you'll have one cohesive system for the entire game, and not a difficult scenario where you are trying to balance between tab and action.
This is something I'm completely ok with, but doubt others would be. Especially considering how easy and stale tab target combat has become, as action combat just feels much more exciting as you are invested into every action and decision you make, where as tab you zoom out and just play more like an RTS, which again, is just upsetting.
I think what you're missing is that a ton of people will just flat out disagree with you in terms of action vs. tab difficulty, depth, and excitement. Tab is simply a different type of skill from action, and there are a ton of people who love the gameplay and strategic depth that you get from tab (ever heard of a game called WoW?).
Played a ton of Archeage (tab based and a big part of what Ashes is based around), and I can assure you it takes a lot of skill to play well - if you disagree, feel free to go try the 1v1 arena and see if it's too easy for you...
Some people just don't like to have to aim. There are plenty of FPS out there - even FPS MMOs - if that's what you like. But don't drag that into a game where they've already said they want to lean towards tab.
•Overall this looks great. Targeting in tab/action seems neat and function smoothly.
•Strain sound from the bow is weird, annoying and unrealistic, what is this? lol
•Arrow impact and air sound is decent, more focus should be put there to make it even more satisfying imo.
•Hold/charge arrow shots? Big dislike. Never feels good when you can't optimise damage to time, release too early you waste damage, release too late(after it's fully charged) you waste time and damage.
Would much rather just have longer cast time or some kind of build up/combo system for bigger hits.
Just because the larger portion of the community have been exposed to tab, longer than action, doesn't make it the go to choice. Heck, I started 20+ years ago and got my share of tab targeting MMO's and action based over the years. Lineage 2 being by far my favorite MMO experience, which is also one of Steven's biggest influences, I mean heck, the corruption system is a complete one for one from L2. If you believe staring at an opponents health bar and waiting for a specific skill indicator to pop up for an interrupt is considered "exciting", we'll agree to disagree. Now not all action combat is good, BDO was a rabbit on crack speed fest, and NW is tailored more around fast FPS reactions since it requires pinpoint accuracy and headshots, but that doesn't mean that has to be the only options for action combat. Tera did a much better job on executing a cohesive combat experience, slower paced gameplay that allowed for a healthy action scenario, which also allowing the ability to read your opponent in a healthier way compared to the previous mentions, and plan accordingly....It was just unfortunate the game literally had nothing else at all to make it worthwhile.
I mean heck, bit off topic, but WoW is the reason the genre has dug itself into a hole for so long. So many developers were trying to make the next WoW, catering to the design philosophy of a developer trying to make everything easier, and milk their base with a casual mindset. Which they are still attempting to do, with their community rebelling. I doubt to see the benefit for a game that introduced dungeon finder queuing, solo play, do everything yourself, faction vs faction community separation, etc. So even though it may have been extremely popular when it launched, that was mostly due to it being a Blizzard game, and its massive fanbase. If it was from a different random publisher/developer, it would never have been as big as it became.
Back on topic, the main factor though, there is a path to make an actual hybrid system that ties both elements into one cohesive system...Compared to having two systems that have disadvantages and advantages when compared to one another depending on the class style you are playing.
I don't believe it's a bad thing to try to evolve the genre while pulling from the past. Heck, that's Steven and Intrepid's main goal. Bringing back the community and risk vs reward aspect of MMO's...Not a copy paste, as we can clearly see from the results of their ground breaking node system, and evolution of how the worlds will be developed by the players in an MMO. Not just your standard linear design of Town A, to Town B, to Town C quest node based progression.
The fact that they are trying to make a hybrid system, something that the community has asked for, considering the previous Alpha 1 combat system and prior being looked on in a negative light, which was solely tab target...Yes it lacked polish, but times are changing, would not be a bad idea to push the genre to the next rung in the ladder when it comes to combat, rather than use a system that has been deemed as outdated, just for the sake of comfort...
With Asmon hyping up the game, exposing it to his viewers, I'm expecting a large WoW player base to try the game, but sad to say, I believe most will end up leaving, as this won't be your typical raid night, dungeon boss PvE fest. Something Asmon hasn't seemed to realize yet based on the takes I've seen from him so far. In all reality, we the players, are the content....Which is what L2 and Archeage executed well on.
A great bow player must be mainly someone that aims/tracks better his opponents than the other rangers.
Excluding travel distances and movement predictions since the game at this stage doesn't seem to include it, and i'd be ok with or without this mechanic as long as you need to aim at your opponent to hit him as well as having your crosshair on his head to headshot him, in conclusion the bow has to be FPS like.
The fact that shooting an arrow 2 meters away from your ennemy in the free aimed mode makes you hit your target is regretful. You could miss shots and still get rewarded for it ... what's the point of playing a shooting class then ?
Run and jump around pressing semi autolocked on target left clicks and abilities like a hunter in WoW ?
It doesn't seem challenging enough to me for a game that aims to change the way MMO's are played.
I also hope that animation canceling is gonna be a thing to have some sort of fake out possibility, maybe dodges will make it possible ? Otherwise the feeling of the game in PvP will be less complex and skillful.
Tab targeting should never be a thing for a shooting class, it's boring and the skill cap is going to be very low.
That class needs a unique gameplay.
Get rid of the tab targetting.
Having that and a free aiming mode, people are going to chose the easy way being tab targetting, that's gonna kill this spec and very few will play it.
And please work on those hitboxes, make them the size of the character you're facing.
UI
PLAYER NAME TAG
MOB NAME TAG
MOB TAG
- Text above mob not readily legible.
- Font appears to be different font to other fonts, may not be, but hard to read clearly.
- Typology font sizes might need review for overall template
- Might need re-work
PLAYER CHARACTER TAGMINI MAP
Map
SKILL BARS
INDIVIDUAL SKILLS – in skill bar
FOLIAGE
Nice coming along. Noticed that scale of vegetation is low foliage, med trees and tall trees.
Little foliage goes over thigh height, would like to see areas of the landscape have taller scrub for both ambush and hiding capability.
I'm going to jump on the band wagon that the current showcase of action vs tab targeting seemed disjointed. That said, I feel like you are working in the right direction to deliver some immersive combat, eg relevant basic attacks, reticle placement determining priority tab cycling. In terms of targeting, my two extremes which I didn't love were WOW sleepy tab targetting and new world (working my ass off to retain a target, missing often while raging at melee meat heads getting hits on EVERY target standing remotely near them).
Is it possible to have the active combat perspective define an arc, and targets are only tab targettable in that area? Could allow for some class playstyle differentiation, eg 45 degree global arc size with modifiers: ranger primary class -20%, short bow -10%, long bow -20%, class passive choice between +20% arc vs +20% damage, Cleric secondary class +30%.
A couple extra things I'm keen to see re ranged combat in future sneak peaks.
1) collision: despite my best attempts at having selected a hardlock target, that pesky tank is in my way. I would like to see the tank absorbing hits, or even better standing in front of me! Could give tanks the positional gameplay presence needed in pvp. Maybe my tab target snaps to the tank on taunt.
2) class synergies: would love to see an ability in some epic large scale battles where rangers band together and paint the battle field with a massive aoe zone. Something that can't be ignored. Equivalents for other classes could be tanks making shield wall, summoner opening portals to the enemy backline.
Thanks, looking forward to more!
Just go softer, in my opinion.
First the question: If arrows are projectiles, will they hit a target that is in front of my tabbed target even in tab mode? I really like this idea!
Second the request: I'm sure it's only missing because of alpha but it wasn't metioned in the video iirc. Please add arrows to the skill animations. Atm the ranger is fireing thin air from his bow and the emerging projectile itself is also lacking an arrow at it's center. Plus it would be really awesome if arrows would stick inside the mob or scenerie (purely visual).
Adding weak points on monsters and players would make for really fun gameplay, such as player headshots or shooting at the gem embedded on a creature's back.
Charge ups of abilities should also work for spell casters as I believe it does for melee attacks already.
Great direction so far. Hit all the basics from my standpoint. I love the short bow/longbow differences. Really need to see the melee options to get a full picture for what pvp will be like, but love the direction so far.
the hybrid direction for targeting I think is perfect. I dislike pure tab lock archer games. Makes rangers play like casters almost always.
I like hitboxes (head/body) and bonuses for pure aim to really bring player skill into it as long as you can stop the aimbots. For example:
pure aim mode headshot +10%
Pure aim mode body shot +5%
Softlock +1-2%
Tabtarget 0%
Amounts for example only. Just something that rewards higher miss risk with reward damage. If the hit box doesn’t work, then the low probability random super high headshot damage rolls are always fun. 1/1000 snipe insta kill is also always exciting…
For a gameplay standpoint, it looked really good. I like it when rangers are about keeping distance with root / slows plus evasion as the primary solo attack mode. In large group pve, big damage aggro inducing shots vs slower sustained shots to manage Dps is great. The softlock aim targeting feels like it will be perfect for the massive pvp battles. Sniping clerics in the backrow will definitely add some solid variability to sieges.
Other stuff for a ranger:
1. tracking! All classes tracking is lame. No ranger tracking is lame. Ranger/ranger should be best tracking, all ranger primary good tracking, all subclasses tracking basics. Also tracking resistance would be good as well for pvp…
2. Stealth. Forest stealth best, other stealths degrade based on environment.
3. Speed. Short bow was perfect example of that. Rangers should have some kind of speed bonus based on terrain or environment. A ranger should be hard to see and fast moving through the forest, but out of place in a city.
4. Gathering bonus. Some kind of bonus gathering materials… the keen eye shouldn’t just work on tracks…
All in all great work. Fired up for alpha 2! (Whenever it is- super on board with the take your time direction…)
And that people won't accept ppl who favors action combat in dungeon group, raids, etc.
But I really like what I saw. It looked good, responsive, weighty and sounded amazing.
What is important in the basic ranged weapon attack for me is the ability to make it more interesting and it not just be a filler attack. Can I add a poison to the basic attack, can I make it pierce armor for a little bit by having a specific skill, how will I be able to improve my arrows to hit my enemies harder.
Something I would like to see for ranged combat is traps that can be placed for when enemies get into melee range. Something quick that you can set up for that bit of extra damage and possibly rooting in the trap as well to help keep your distance. I have always felt that ranged has a huge disadvantage as soon as melee comes close.
Something I don't want to see is the class becoming super niche. Too many MMO's focus solely on one aspect of the class for a build which makes you feel like you aren't reaching the full potential. An example would be being a beast master having all of your abilities focus solely on your pet. It makes the ranger redundant. I have seen the same thing with trap specialists where all of the skills are traps so if anyone stays out of range of your traps well then you are screwed in combat or the trap set up is too long and so you can't quickly use an ability to boost your odds in a fight. Another problem in other games I have seen is making too many of the ranger abilities single target focus so much so that if you get into a mob fight you die if you can't get out. I think the extra mobility probably solves this problem but I would love to see some interesting AOE abilities for the ranger.
However, not what I heard: as someone with High-Frequency Hearing Loss and Tinnitus the sounds triggered my tinnitus and also the loud arrow noise was painful to hear at a low volume. People probably like the sounds so maybe some kind of pitch limiting option or sound pack would be good for users with similar disabilities.
I like to see rangers being the desired 'range, single-target DPS' class. I think that's what a lot of traditional RPG players like, but I also think positioning, CC, and various status effect spells could add additional layers of flavor to the archetype. Again, I think your team showed some glimpses of this during the demo but would love to see more of this. I know this was a "basic attack showcase" but I hope the Ranger archetype gets to do a lot more burst single-target damamge than what was displayed. This will give the archetype a more desirable appeal in the long term. What I DON'T like is when games try to make the rangers a "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none". This makes the class seem dull and doesn't seem to have a special place in the late-game groups, etc. This usually leaves the ranger viewed as a seemingly boring, vanilla, class that people shy away from trying in a lot of modern MMOs.
I like the "impact" of the arrows in BDO.
I like the movement and mobility skills in BDO and GW2.
I like the ability to have some melee options if I ever get stuck fighting melee range, like the weapon options in GW2 (even if I prefer to CC and control the distance of the enemy). Having daggers, or short swords on a ranger adds flavor and adds a dynamic option for players to problem-solve with.
Not to exclude any examples: I really like how some modern shooters allow their longest ranged weapons, like sniper rifles, to really take advantage of the distance, burst damage (one-shot kills), and player skill- while keeping them a risky choice by making them 'low rate of fire' (usually), low carrying capacity (the equivalent of two-handed carrying capacity), and risky misses (difficulty of success).
LOVED the airstrike ability. It solves a couple of challenges rangers face (mobility/positioning and distance). Makes me excited to see abilities like this in the other classes/archetypes.
I understand the compromise of the reticle-view, and I applaud the team for choosing a direction, but it wasn't clear to me what incentive or benefit there is to 'choose' the reticle-view, other than 'play-style'. It just seems disadvantageous and less efficient to choose reticle view and not autolocking with tab targeting.
Suggestion:
Maybe offer some kind of incentive to choose reticle-view (risk vs reward). I understand we don't want to imbalance PVE (boss fights, etc), but perhaps allowing a larger 'effective range' mechanism for reticle players would be a good incentive to risk missing those long shots. Something like that. Something that wouldn't just be the default choice in PVE, but something that rewards player skill, and rewards player risk.
I would recommend for the bows to have a quiver. Not just pulling arrows randomly from the air.
or
A magical summoning of arrows...
Animation Ideas:
If going the quiver route it would be cool for the animation to pull an arrow from the quiver before being shot. Rapid shoot have him pull three arrows etc.
or
If magical route. Have vines from the bow or your hand extend to make an arrow.
hybrid combat - I personally really like this direction, but suspect the action combat people will be disappointed a little. (part of why they want action combat is because they are good at aiming and want to shit on people who are not, in other words, they dont just want action combat for them, they want everyone to be in action combat). I like how you can lock targets in with an action camera but still use your abilities like you are in tab... or you can activate them with a soft target and stay in action. I have some questions about changing targets, etc. but I am sure those will be obvious when we get to play.
In short, great job. I cannot wait to play it and then I am sure we will all reassess our feedback accordingly.
Tell Steve not be such a noob and die so much next time 😂
Plus the charge time could be a bit longer. And maybe have an increased cooldown for the skill if you don't charge it to full.
But the thing that left me wanting the most had to do more with the NPC's the ranger was fighting. TTK was too fast honestly. And not because of too much damage but because NPC took too long to use the proper skills like heal and shield , and their skills where too inconsequential. The shield was too weak , better to have a stronger one with a time limit. And the heal was meh at best.
Not to mention that NPCs where too static. They just sat there. I was hoping actually for more than just roaming. To have NPC for the factions that actually have a role , like patrolling, gathering , raiding player locations. Hell , hunting players and other npc factions. But not sit around like it is Lineage 2 , 2002. Hopefully that is only because it is early in development.
I would like to see better AI for NPC. Like calling for help from surrounding NPC , or running towards other NPC if they see they start loosing a fight.
NPC healing each other , or throwing buffs at each other.
I am not a big fan of the kind of combat where you mow down npc. You do get an adrenaline rush initially , but it gets boring fast. And you end up not actually playing the game. But mindless grinding , while watching some series on netflix.
Yours truly personally liked the details that Steven and Margaret went over about the differences in the tab-target and action-fired abilities. It's really, REALLY great to see the difference and to get to know the swap-ability between the two; This was really great insight, after wondering about these systems for so long.
I typically prefer the ranged combat, in MMOs. Just too much chasing people around, as a melee, in most games - so just figured to throw in my 2 cents on how I liked the video, itself. Good work!