So if I see someone up on a wall I can do the jump thing and just yeet myself over the wall? I'm just imagining someone getting paid off to betray the town and a team of archers seal team inside and get the capture point while the whole enemy team is fighting outside the walls. I will be sad if I just get a no path available message.
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ShadowVenMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I Main Ranger or Bard in every MMO that I have played that has either of those classes. I've been playing MMORPG's since Everquest. I play both Tab and Action combat but lean more towards Tab a little more.
To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters:
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
I like to see a trade off between speed and power in basic attack combos. For instance if a basic attack combo consists of 4 shots, the first shot (nocking and release) should be the fastest but also the weakest hit, gradually trading speed in place of power for each shot afterwards untill you get to the last attack, which should have some sort of charging capability. That being said the last shot in the basic attack combo shouldn't be more powerful or impactful than any of the rangers "attack" abilities, nor should the first shot be faster or in equal damage to any speed focused "attack ability". Now, if you take in total DPS across all 4 shots collectively, that should be similar to a high tier skill on same level field as character. A lvl 30 character basic attack combo collective total dps should be similar to a singular Rank 3 mid-high dmg lvl 30 skill for instance.
[*] When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I personnally don't like to see a base Ranger class with pets. I think Rangers should be heavily focused on keen archery and some basic trapping. When it comes to traps, Rogues should be best at them and Ranger/summoner should have animals to assist them, howver Rangers should be most skilled in Archery.
I'm excited to see a variety of bow types in game. I think the Shortbow should be quicker on fire rate and shorter range than longbow. Longbow should have slower rate of fire but longer range (arrow disspears or drops off at a further distance than the shortbow arrows).
Intrepid has done such a great job at being unique in so many ways already, i'd like to see that bar continue with all classes, including Ranger, when it comes to skills. Please dont just settle for the normal bow skills that most other mmo's have. I mean its okay to have a few or some but focus on unique abilities. For example, the Flamin arrow that leaves a trail of fire is a great idea that you guys came up with. Maybe instead of a normal "spread shot" have a skill that fires multiple arrows at a wide arc then all fly in at the same location for multiple hits on a single target. Its more on the looks and animations of the Ability. Rangers are also known to be nimble, agile, and dexterous, so it was great to see that jumping volley attack. Please add additional skills with that stlye. Jumping backflip shot for evasion or high Jump shot to see over rocks or other obstacles should be included. The jumping basic attack should be removed and left to skills. Highly skilled Rangers should have the ability to be so accurate, their shots should be able to target vulnerable spots on an enemy, causing them to slow down, bleed, impare them or be able to target their own traps to set them off from a distance.
[*] Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Honestly you guys really nailed it for me in this area. As I was watching, I was thinking of no other tab target game comes close to what you've guys accomplished. As on the action combat side, it was harder to compare since the action combat in Ashes is vastly different than games that focus 100% on action combat.
[*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
As a player that loves playing as Archers/Rangers and has been for over 20 years, you guys really did an exceptional job so far. The only thing i'd remove is the ability to jump and shoot. That should be left for skills. The whistling Sound effects for the Shortbow needs to be tuned down.
The sound effects for the Longbow were amazing for release and drawback. I noticed in the video there was no arrow nocked onto the bow. Now knowing this was just a demo showcase of the Ranger, i figured that would come later, but please dont forget to add that small immersion factor. I wouldnt want to see my character hold and drawback the bow with no ammo on it ;P.
After watching the ingame video a few times and listening to Stevens ideas around it, I am very pleased with the Ranger combat!
As a person who wants to play Ranger/Archer type classes but never found a game that makes it feel good, I have to congratulate to the dev team and Stevens ideas around the Ranger gameplay.
For me the standard MMO type of Archer gameplay always felt lacking and disconnected from Archery, as a person who currently teaching Archery in my spare time and used to compete and won some regional and national Archery competitions, the Archer in most MMOs always felt bad, I love the basic weapon attack is the main focus and the toolkit as Steven refers to it as is more of an addition rather than the main focus of a Rangers rotation unlike most other MMOs.
The difference between the Shortbow and Longbow however I feel need to be larger, could be that I havn't played with it myself yet, so this is only based on what I seen in the video.
One thing I do wonder on, with the Longbow in Action mode, will one be able to volley arrows over walls/structures? That would be really cool if possible for siege/castle stuff!
Something I also wonder about, Steven mentioned Main and Ranged weapon slots, assuming this is also applied to the Ranger class, I am safe to assume you can use any weapon more or less just not be able to specc into that weapon tree?
Will be very intresting to see future progress and I can't wait for some content creators stream and do videos in Alpha 2 with the Ranger combat!
Love the combat system so far. Looks like a blast to play with.
One small thing though thats a bit off topic: the nameplate design should be tweaked a bit. I know the game is still in the early works and there are way more systems that need to be flushed out first. I just think a nice design tweak would be nice to see as well.
[*] What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
Mobility, speed and movement are the most important part of combat. Keep the attack ranges of abilities on par with each other as other games have a habit of varying the range of all the different attacks which just reduces all of them to the lowest common denominator in most cases. I could understand a loan ability like knockback being shorter range, but for the most part keep them the same when possible.
[*] When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I would love to see the ranger be able to track mobs and players, pets, utilize stealth, more easily navigate through difficult terrain and weather and scavenge for foods.. Things that make the ranger a ranger, but somehow so many games neglect. They are called as such because the range out in the wilderness, not because they use range weapons. A purely melee ranger should be just as viable and feel like a ranger as well.
[*] Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
[*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I really like what I've seen so far with the current combat similar to GW2 and ArcheAge.
I am mostly a PVPer and someone that plays rangers. I have played a lot of MMO PVP games over the years, and I still find GW2 and ArcheAge the better combat systems than most others. I certainly do not want to see Planetside, or New World. That third person shooter gameplay is by far the worst system.
The mobility and speed of the ranger while attacking is excellent. It looks fun, and fluid. Thought I think the lowbow model should be longer to better differentiate its appearance from the shortbow. While others claim skill, I see it as almost exclusively ping and lag deciding whether you win in combat or not. People will just use aimbots if the game is turned into a third person shooter. This current hybrid system is fine, but as far as I am concerned, it could just remain tab targeting and getting rid of the reticle.
Super happy with the direction of the rangers combat, a few feedback points I’d like to add
• Different sounds of the projectiles when fired. (they were too high pitched imo)
• Some sort of visual/sound indication that my aoe ability hit the target without relying on me moving my camera. This could be something simple like arrows coming out of my character and moving towards the target only if it registered as a hit. (Air strike ability)
• Would love to see more abilities not revolving around damage, such as movement, utility, and pets, as these play a major roll in combat.
Other non related combat feedback:
I thought the visual effects in the morning were a little much. Mainly the lighting and too many fog clouds.
Nameplates are a big miss imo, games like wow have huge amounts of customization in this and would like to see different styles and sizes.
Keep up the amazing work!!!!
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
Posting the same thing I just said in a non-official thread:
As a deeply ANTI tab target player, but one who is reasonable, I will say the current system is optimal for Alpha. It needs a bit of refinement before launch of course. But the action-side of this hybrid system is a lot closer to what I wanted than I ever expected them to go.
The projectiles are exactly that, projectiles, instead of hitscan. It means they can be actively dodged or blocked instead of the server *telling you* if you block or dodge it based on stats. You can freely shoot with no target, and if something walks into the shot you get a hit. You can move/jump while shooting. The only hybrid part of it is how you’re going to hit your target as long as your reticle is red (if they don’t dodge it) and right now it seems it can be red even if you’re aiming slightly off to the side of the target which could/should be tightened up a little bit and then I think it would be perfect (for a hybridized system).
I can see myself and my group (mostly action players) enjoying the gameplay and I don’t feel like the players who are going to use tab target will have an advantage with the current system, mostly for the projectile reasoning I started with.
I found the ranger demo very exciting and enjoyable. And I found the ranger combat pretty badass. Thank you, team, for your hard work! Side note: The artwork is coming along so nicely.
I am NOT an action combat player; I much prefer tab targeting. Actually, I tend to stop playing a game when it's an action combat focused game. However, I enjoy that there is a hybrid system for people who would like to use one, the other, or both. My only concern is that action combat has more incentives than tab targeting. And possibly will introduce unfair advantages for those that can't or won't play the opposite style (like launching random arrows all over the place). I think there shouldn't be incentives to one or the other, nor should there be any meaningful benefits. I feel like the focus should be making the two available, but not making one more advantageous over the other. If debate gets out of hand and consensus cannot be made in terms of equal play, I advocate to tab-only targeting, if it comes to that. However, I hope this game to be as inclusive to play styles as possible.
With all that said, I'm excited about the direction the team is taking this.
It would be nice to see some sort of ammunition item slot where you can equip a type of ammunition that adds stats or effects to your ranged attacks. But still without attacks consuming an amount of ammunition.
This will also unlock some crafting of ammunition items.
I played through Alpha 1 and I was really hoping you guys kept the hybrid target system after all the debate about it so glad you chose to keep it.
While watching the ranger gameplay on stream just now it makes me wish there was some type of incentive to play in action combat mode as I feel like it won't be utilized unless incentivized. I mean I prefer it as I enjoy the challenge, heck I'd even like to be able to take the aim assist off. And with that being said I wish there was a way to take the aim assist off and have actual damaged areas of the mob...headshots/bodyshots/etc.
Also, ofc I have to ask like everyone else, but when is alpha 2? lol.
The action camera isn't meant to turn the game into a first person shooter. It is in the game as another style of selecting which target you want to be locked on to, which is the best decision.
Good day to yall^^
I like the style and way the archer looks but it does still feel like there is not enough difference between the hard hitting longbow and the "fast" shortbow from the drawtime. Regarding the skills i think they look hella dope. But i got a question regarding the debuff from quickshot is that for 1 player only where the dmg stack works or are other rangers also getting the dmg increase + stack up in wvich case u could with good team management burst ppl down. And depending on Teamwork u could even top off ur best geared archer if u give him 2 lower lvl/ low dps member So they stack up the debuff and He geht's last shot. Which u could do 3 times/ 9 uses of the quickshot.
I will provide some answers to the questions and then I'll provide some additional feedback and/or insight.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
-I would love to see awesome attack animations, great sounds when casting/firing and on hit/miss/dodge, but specially when you CRIT! Also I would love to get more information about weapon speed, how will weapon effects be incorporated (slow,dot,armor penn,etc..).
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
-There is no right or wrong, or too much variety for me ... I want to see from Ninja-ish Assasin types to Elvish Woodlands, from Tracker/Poachers to Naturalist types (Have a connection with animals). The more the merrier!
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
-As others have already mentioned some games like GW2,ESO, NW, WOW,etc .. have got it right in terms of some of their ... Aimed, Telegraph, AOE Abilities, not to forget DOTs! They can always improve! In this day and age a bit of challenge is good and specially innovation is always welcome!
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I will continue to say that I do appreciate how Intrepid is interacting with its community. Feedback should always be welcome! Specially in business. So, kudos for them for having an open-minded approach and wanting the game to excel in every aspect. It takes time, dedication and to have a good ear (in the market) to make a good product!
The Live Streams:
-I love the fact that Intrepid is always upfront about things and that they showcase their progress at every step of the way. I specially love their updates!
-I would have to agree with folks that the environment was beautiful. I would have loved to see a snappier AI, more aggresive/agile enemies but I may be getting ahead of myself. For me combat should be like a dance, or a reaction to the action that the player took.
-I would have to agree with some folks that more clarity is needed in regards to what is Action-Combat and to showcase it better moving forward.
Long Bow / Short Bow
-LB was almost the same size as short bow. I was expecting slower shots. Mobility while firing should be a factor. The ranger's arsenal kit should help in some way, but then again, LB's gamble is the more still you are at range, the deadlier.
-SB was good. Quick, mobile with less damage per hit, but with a good sustain damage.
Auto-attack GCDs are important for class balancing as well. And I will say it again, mobility while attacking should be a factor, for all classes. Slower movement while you are attacking. This goes hand in hand with auto-attack GCDs. Get close enough to your target, then attack. Target too far? You can sacrifice the dodge mechanic to convert it to a gap closer or use an ability that will reposition you. The same should apply to range attackers. Stay still and pull big/constant hits or attack at range and keep a bit of distance by relocating to avoid taking melee damage (Risk/Reward).
Ammo:
I am happy that Intrepid took this route. Less hassle for the player althought an artisan/merchant loss (shouldnt be an issue as you could sell almost anything and can increase the price based on the demand).
Also I have read a few pages and this is my two cents on the matter:
The "Dont give them what they want" and similar arguments sounds rather childish, even selfish.
In some cases: Never HATE the player, hate the game that allowed it to happened.
Just state your thoughts and experiences.
Provide feedback on what you like and dislike. What made that experience enjoyable, etc. Give people the freedom to choose. And Remember that the Risk/Reward is a core value of AOC.
We all have hoped for something better, something new. That is why we are here having these discussions.
In my mind, the below suggestions may help in a way balance some of the complaints on Tab Targetting VS ACTION-COMBAT (auto attacks, switch between target, and use certain Abilities).
Intrepid could implement something like:
" \--- *---/" <
You can press tab and target enemies within the ranges ... You can shoot what you see!
Or
"\-*-/" <
You can Aim Freely and/or target enemies within the small ranges ... You can shoot what you see!
Or
Do Hibrids of these two and and provide more options if needed...
This creates the possibility for aim assist and/or to have more control over your targetting (if desired).
Intrepid in the end will move towards what they had envisioned (taking feedback here and there). But please Intrepid, No Casting or targetting other players when they are out of Line-Of-Sight(or at their backs).
Some have mentioned a few scenarios where some player attacks will never miss their target, etc. For me, at this point it is still fine. They have a point of reference and want feedback to move forward.
We still dont know exactly how the dodge ability works. <
This may possibly help avoid certain ability hits.
We still dont know if players will have an active block ability. <
This may possibly help avoid the auto attack dilemma, in-coming damage, etc.
And dont forget that projectiles can be avoided by covering behind objects, Mobs or other players ...There is a lot that it is still unknown.
Im praying for the release date of the next test run .. now that combat is the next focus...
Short bow for me was always about close to midrange combat with Poison, Mobility, Quick Combos, Single target mostly, maybe stealth options
Long Bow should be Precise long range high dmg (with zoom option for aiming) Not a hit scan but close if fully charged etc, Traps, Aoe dmg, Bonus dmg for headshot/crits, CC and stuff
I was always a big "sniper gameplay" fan going full glass cannon 2 Shoting people/dying to everything . New World did it well with Musket and I hope to see even better version here as well
you didn't show anything, you didn't open the character sheet, you didn't show the interface, you didn't detail the ranger, you should have explained his role in pve and pvp in a group and in solo.
you didn't talk about his abilities and the skils he will have
you just showed 3 skils of level 1 and without cheat code you would have died 5 times
this is not a class presentation !
to do that it would be better to show nothing
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
you didn't show anything, you didn't open the character sheet, you didn't show the interface, you didn't detail the ranger, you should have explained his role in pve and pvp in a group and in solo.
you didn't talk about his abilities and the skils he will have
you just showed 3 skils of level 1 and without cheat code you would have died 5 times
this is not a class presentation !
to do that it would be better to show nothing
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
@Malotrux
The intention was to show basic, fundamental, rudimentary attacks of a ranger.
The question asked is "Do you like the direction, principle, proposition of this design?"
This is so that they can know as early as possible if they need to change the basic, fundamental, rudimentary attacks of the ranger. Otherwise it is very difficult and expensive to change later if players do not like it after they have a fully finished archer design.
I think the most important aspect with any type of MMO combat is the OOMPH feeling with combat. There needs to be some weight behind it. I dislike floaty type combat very much. The second most important piece is that it needs to be engaging. Not just standing still and pressing buttons until things die. I liked the constant movement and repositioning.
I can't think of a recent MMO that has great ranged combat. I felt good things about the musket game play in New World and I liked the little bit of WIldstar I played. I would say Guild Wars 2 is okay as well. ESO is the game to not copy as they have the worse floaty combat that I can remember.
The one thing I really got excited about with the ranged dps showcase was the high quality animations and what appeared to be weighty combat. Some good OOMPH in it.
Looking forward to more gameplay videos. Can't wait to see more animations.
Edit: rewatched the video again. Forgot to mention I like that you are developing a traditional tab target system in addition to a more action orientated free look and soft lock system. This is key to a modern MMO.
If archery is intended to be somewhat realistic, you might find it interessting to know shorter bows (and in particular shorter limbs, the part of the bow that store energy) provide higher projectile velocity than longer bows (or limbs), while longer bows provide stability, increasing accuracy and precision.
This looks(and hears) so promising!
I think that the Ranger should have his boundary to nature and the aspect of going on the hunt more combined to his skillset. So for example I´d like to have some "Nature-Magic" , so he can Buff himself(or party?). He use the healing power of nature to heal himself and use the desease powers of nature to poison his arrows. Also it would be nice if he has some kind of Meele-Combat in his skillset. So he hunts the enemys down, kite it arrow by arrow, but when he see the oppertunity to end the wounded enemys life, dashing in and slice the enemy down. Or when the enemy comes into range, we can have a backflip-kick, for getting some distance by jumping backwards and kicking the enemy away.
Also some some kind of camouflage-skill will be very appreciate! (Combined with a bonus in stealth surprise attack)
And last but not least i really love if he can summon a companion on his side, like a falcon, wolf, weasel, bear, or something like that...or have the ability of shapeshifting for example in a bear and getting a whole new skillset while in this form!
One last thing, but hasn´t to do anything with the ranger itself: Please consider to give us the possibility to rearange the graphics. So everyone can have a fluid experience even when they have a potato pc, the game should run stable. Sure, not looking as awesome as it could look like, but at least running stable. So it defnelty is a game for everyones (hardware).
Love the progress and can´t wait too see what you coming up with next!
I really enjoyed the Ranger showcase! I especially loved the cool animations, movement abilities, and targeting options. The overhead leap while dropping traps/snares was badass!
One thing I like from some games is the ability at high levels for the Ranger to remain viable while still being mobile. I can't remember the MMO right now, but one had a system I hated where at the top levels the Ranger had to basically be a rooted sniper to achieve the best dps. This then became "the meta," and pretty much ruined grouping experiences/opportunities, etc... for players who opted for the mobile skill tree. I'm not saying there should not be a sniper-type option, just that both types should remain viable at endgame.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you? ---Having different options to address different types of threats.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see? ---Rangers in my mind are known for their stealth, traps, bows, daggers, tracking, smoke bombs, pets (or use of animals) and camouflage. It would be fun to see them employ a lot of unique tactics, more than just being "the bow character" - as they seem to be in other games.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways? ---I've always liked the idea of thrown traps, different types of arrows, misdirection, and some benefits to team synergy. (perhaps with other Rangers?)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype? ---The main concern I have with any type of ranged class (and I'm looking at you WoW Hunter), is that they can become unkillable with kiting. Traps, slows, out ranging, silences, snares, interrupts, etc - ranged / bow classes can become almost impossible to kill, especially for melee classes.
The target selection method is 100% the correct way of doing this. too many disgruntled new world players want the shots to be "aimed" not realizing the problem and implications of that in large-scale pvp. Combat should be more about fast paced decision making and counterplay using fluid and skillful use of abilities and not strafing around trying to line up a headshots.
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GodMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The target selection method is 100% the correct way of doing this. too many disgruntled new world players want the shots to be "aimed" not realizing the problem and implications of that in large-scale pvp. Combat should be more about fast paced decision making and counterplay using fluid and skillful use of abilities and not strafing around trying to line up a headshots.
1- what are the problems and implications of aimed shots in large scale pvp?
2- you can dodge aimed shots. tab targetted cant be dodged. imagine an archer party decides you shouldnt live, they just click you (from so far away you cant stop them) and press 1 then you die, nothing you can do about it. the only counter is dont get clicked on. how is that better than having the ability to dodge the shot?
In my opinion the most important utility a ranger can bring to the table in a mmo with pvp is tracking skills. Be it tracking individual players, being able to detect players or groups within a distance, being able to reveal and/or prevent stealth from rogues etc.
Honestly surprised this aspect of ranger utility has not been discussed as much.
The Dünir Hold Mithril Warhammers,Thanes of the Keelhaul, Dünir scourge of the oceans, Warhammer First Fleet Command of The Dünzenkell Nation, friends to the Dünir Dwarves of the Dünhold.Hammers High!
It would be very interesting if the range class had a dedicated ability that allows them to switch between different arrow types, each significantly impacting combat. This would provide the ranger with a lot of different options on how to approach different combat situations in both PvE and PvP.
This dedicated ability will not be on the ability bar; but would be on the left side of the ability bar, not connected to it.
For example this special ability is key bonded to Q. At the beginning of the game (level 1) there are only basic arrows. A class quest will become available to unlock new arrow types later on. These class quests can be very unique.
Each special arrow type ability can be gained by competing class quest and unlocking those arrow types.
Not all of these arrow types can be equipped at the same time. Only 3 are able to be equipped, but can be changed when out of combat for X amount of time.
To rotate between the 3 different types of arrows the ranger would press Q.
If the ranger has basic arrow, heavy arrow and poison arrow equip, they can cycle through them till it get to the arrow they desire. Additionally these arrow types can be keybinded to whatever the ranger would prefer.
An arrow type like the heavy arrow can be unlocked at level 10 after a ranger quest is complete.
Special arrow examples:
Heavy arrow - slower projectile speed, more damage
Ice arrow - slows enemies movement speed by X
Poison arrow - nature damage over time
Wounding arrow - target takes X amount of increase damage
Unholy arrow - negates X amount of healing
Arrow types can also only be for certain subclasses:
Magic arrow - pierces armor (mage subclass)
Necro arrow - summons a skeleton (summoner sub class)
Recon arrow - allows user to see stealth enemies (rogue sub class)
If certain arrow types are considered too over powered, they can be nerfed easily.
For example the unholy arrow. The ranger can only hold 3 of these at a time. 1 unholy arrow can be replenish on a cooldown of 1 minute. If the ranger has none, it takes 3 minutes to gain all 3 back.
P.S. If this gains traction I can mention more arrow types i think would be useful.
A "ranger" is a warden of some nature. As a warden, their utility should be around vision+knowledge and the advantages you get from such, including home-ground advantage. They plan ahead with traps and knowledge to counter the enemies on their land.
Vision+knowledge:
Rangers may be able to see differences between spawns like which traits an animal that can be tamed is extra giften in (hp, attack speed, a resistance...)
Animal companions are a summoner thing, and everybody can have pets, but sending a bird/animal to scout is very thematic and role appropriate. This can be to detect monsters, caravans, reds, or perhaps just other players more generally.
Tracking. Using clues from the environment to know who has been around, or where they might be. Conversely, they can cover their own tracks, or even the tracks of their party.
Stealth. Being unseen allows for getting better knowledge before engaging and leveraging their vision advantage. They are harder to detect at long ranges, and can can then hide in advance, but cannot be stealthed at close range while moving.
Espionage. Behind enemy lines, they have guerilla warfare abilities in sabotaging or quickly capturing objectives in PvP - appropriate when going in as commandos or special forces acting on their frontline knowledge.
Ranged. With good vision, one can see better at a range. Good vision helps with hitting small targets, or targeting specific points. They may even be able to do a blind-fire volley shot based on the sound of where their prey is. They can also Snipe an enemy at a distance, after which they may wish to hide and relocate for another unfair shot.
Light/Medium armor. Pretty obvious, but they want their senses unobstructed. Some of their abilities may not even work with heavy armor, or at least helmets/footwear/etc. Likewise, they prefer to stay out of close combat due to their lighter armor, but against an even less armored foe, like a mage, they may prefer to get up-close-and-personal.
Utilizing vision+knowledge
Traps. A Ranger utilizes their awareness to prepare for enemies. Rogues may also have some traps, they don't need to be exclusive. Likewise, they will drink potions before engaging to have an edge.
Taking advantage of weaknesses. With knowledge of their enemies, Rangers go for more critical hits by knowing weak spots. They use horizontal progression to customize their approach, like the Witcher.
Surprise. Ambushing and surprise attacks can be an area of the Ranger, as well as the Rogue. Sneak attack ranged damage bonuses should be much lower than melee due to lack of precision.
Hit and run. Rangers retreat as soon as the fight is not in their favor and reset. They fight with advantages. They may also attack from cover/concealment and keep an enemy in-place or confused. They may even use distractions.
Control. Rangers are far out, behind enemy lines, or otherwise far from medical attention... not to mention lightly armored... Like cats, Rangers are vulnerable and prefer to avoid taking damage. They will root, slow, and stun enemies so they can keep their distance.
Not 100% ranged. Ranger doesn't mean "ranged"er or "archer". They bias this way because they can utilize ambushing and environmental advantages, not just for the sake of it. Rangers may go for a quick kill OR damage over time with kiting or hit-and-run tactics, utilizing control and bleeds. The Ranger's strengths lay in being clever - a warrior with a bow should be almost as effective as a Ranger at just holding a tower and shooting from it.
Group Buffs - While Rangers bias towards personal utility, it is meaningful in a cooperative MMO to still be able to help their party. Group buffs can include enhancing party walking speed while outdoors/in nature, covering the tracks of the party, giving the party stealth while remaining still (hiding), giving vision buffs to the party, and utilizing herbs to cure diseases, stem bleeding, and perform modest healing over time. The ranger may go solo, but allies can benefit from increased crit damage and chances as the Ranger informs them where the weak spots are.
Mobility - Rangers shouldn't be a highly mobile sprint class. That is the realm of Rogues and Warriors. They shouldn't jump as well as Rogues, either. For Rangers it should be endurance, climbing, hiding, moving over/through terrain, and raw base walking speed (also a quality of life improvement, and justification for, Ranger players wanting to do long-range scouting all the time). They want to be able to get to the highest point for scouting, or at least a high one for getting the drop on an enemy.
I made a Youtube video that went more in-depth about the range combat. Overall I liked it alot, except for quick shot. Having it do more damage with each successive hit is a good idea on paper I think but it will devolve into always spamming the ability. I am not sure of a situation where you wouldn't want to spam it and if the optimal way to use the ability is to spam all 3 charges then it might as well be one button that shoots 3 quick arrows...which at that point isn't much different than your auto attack that you will be spamming in-between abilities. I think it would be more interesting if those were maybe off the global cooldown or if they interacted more with your other abilities.
Comments
I have updated my feedback on the post linked above
I like to see a trade off between speed and power in basic attack combos. For instance if a basic attack combo consists of 4 shots, the first shot (nocking and release) should be the fastest but also the weakest hit, gradually trading speed in place of power for each shot afterwards untill you get to the last attack, which should have some sort of charging capability. That being said the last shot in the basic attack combo shouldn't be more powerful or impactful than any of the rangers "attack" abilities, nor should the first shot be faster or in equal damage to any speed focused "attack ability". Now, if you take in total DPS across all 4 shots collectively, that should be similar to a high tier skill on same level field as character. A lvl 30 character basic attack combo collective total dps should be similar to a singular Rank 3 mid-high dmg lvl 30 skill for instance.
I personnally don't like to see a base Ranger class with pets. I think Rangers should be heavily focused on keen archery and some basic trapping. When it comes to traps, Rogues should be best at them and Ranger/summoner should have animals to assist them, howver Rangers should be most skilled in Archery.
I'm excited to see a variety of bow types in game. I think the Shortbow should be quicker on fire rate and shorter range than longbow. Longbow should have slower rate of fire but longer range (arrow disspears or drops off at a further distance than the shortbow arrows).
Intrepid has done such a great job at being unique in so many ways already, i'd like to see that bar continue with all classes, including Ranger, when it comes to skills. Please dont just settle for the normal bow skills that most other mmo's have. I mean its okay to have a few or some but focus on unique abilities. For example, the Flamin arrow that leaves a trail of fire is a great idea that you guys came up with. Maybe instead of a normal "spread shot" have a skill that fires multiple arrows at a wide arc then all fly in at the same location for multiple hits on a single target. Its more on the looks and animations of the Ability. Rangers are also known to be nimble, agile, and dexterous, so it was great to see that jumping volley attack. Please add additional skills with that stlye. Jumping backflip shot for evasion or high Jump shot to see over rocks or other obstacles should be included. The jumping basic attack should be removed and left to skills. Highly skilled Rangers should have the ability to be so accurate, their shots should be able to target vulnerable spots on an enemy, causing them to slow down, bleed, impare them or be able to target their own traps to set them off from a distance.
Honestly you guys really nailed it for me in this area. As I was watching, I was thinking of no other tab target game comes close to what you've guys accomplished. As on the action combat side, it was harder to compare since the action combat in Ashes is vastly different than games that focus 100% on action combat.
As a player that loves playing as Archers/Rangers and has been for over 20 years, you guys really did an exceptional job so far. The only thing i'd remove is the ability to jump and shoot. That should be left for skills. The whistling Sound effects for the Shortbow needs to be tuned down.
The sound effects for the Longbow were amazing for release and drawback. I noticed in the video there was no arrow nocked onto the bow. Now knowing this was just a demo showcase of the Ranger, i figured that would come later, but please dont forget to add that small immersion factor. I wouldnt want to see my character hold and drawback the bow with no ammo on it ;P.
I can't wait to play the Ranger!
As a person who wants to play Ranger/Archer type classes but never found a game that makes it feel good, I have to congratulate to the dev team and Stevens ideas around the Ranger gameplay.
For me the standard MMO type of Archer gameplay always felt lacking and disconnected from Archery, as a person who currently teaching Archery in my spare time and used to compete and won some regional and national Archery competitions, the Archer in most MMOs always felt bad, I love the basic weapon attack is the main focus and the toolkit as Steven refers to it as is more of an addition rather than the main focus of a Rangers rotation unlike most other MMOs.
The difference between the Shortbow and Longbow however I feel need to be larger, could be that I havn't played with it myself yet, so this is only based on what I seen in the video.
One thing I do wonder on, with the Longbow in Action mode, will one be able to volley arrows over walls/structures? That would be really cool if possible for siege/castle stuff!
Something I also wonder about, Steven mentioned Main and Ranged weapon slots, assuming this is also applied to the Ranger class, I am safe to assume you can use any weapon more or less just not be able to specc into that weapon tree?
Will be very intresting to see future progress and I can't wait for some content creators stream and do videos in Alpha 2 with the Ranger combat!
One small thing though thats a bit off topic: the nameplate design should be tweaked a bit. I know the game is still in the early works and there are way more systems that need to be flushed out first. I just think a nice design tweak would be nice to see as well.
Thanks for the update!
Mobility, speed and movement are the most important part of combat. Keep the attack ranges of abilities on par with each other as other games have a habit of varying the range of all the different attacks which just reduces all of them to the lowest common denominator in most cases. I could understand a loan ability like knockback being shorter range, but for the most part keep them the same when possible.
I would love to see the ranger be able to track mobs and players, pets, utilize stealth, more easily navigate through difficult terrain and weather and scavenge for foods.. Things that make the ranger a ranger, but somehow so many games neglect. They are called as such because the range out in the wilderness, not because they use range weapons. A purely melee ranger should be just as viable and feel like a ranger as well.
I really like what I've seen so far with the current combat similar to GW2 and ArcheAge.
I am mostly a PVPer and someone that plays rangers. I have played a lot of MMO PVP games over the years, and I still find GW2 and ArcheAge the better combat systems than most others. I certainly do not want to see Planetside, or New World. That third person shooter gameplay is by far the worst system.
The mobility and speed of the ranger while attacking is excellent. It looks fun, and fluid. Thought I think the lowbow model should be longer to better differentiate its appearance from the shortbow. While others claim skill, I see it as almost exclusively ping and lag deciding whether you win in combat or not. People will just use aimbots if the game is turned into a third person shooter. This current hybrid system is fine, but as far as I am concerned, it could just remain tab targeting and getting rid of the reticle.
• Different sounds of the projectiles when fired. (they were too high pitched imo)
• Some sort of visual/sound indication that my aoe ability hit the target without relying on me moving my camera. This could be something simple like arrows coming out of my character and moving towards the target only if it registered as a hit. (Air strike ability)
• Would love to see more abilities not revolving around damage, such as movement, utility, and pets, as these play a major roll in combat.
Other non related combat feedback:
I thought the visual effects in the morning were a little much. Mainly the lighting and too many fog clouds.
Nameplates are a big miss imo, games like wow have huge amounts of customization in this and would like to see different styles and sizes.
Keep up the amazing work!!!!
As a deeply ANTI tab target player, but one who is reasonable, I will say the current system is optimal for Alpha. It needs a bit of refinement before launch of course. But the action-side of this hybrid system is a lot closer to what I wanted than I ever expected them to go.
The projectiles are exactly that, projectiles, instead of hitscan. It means they can be actively dodged or blocked instead of the server *telling you* if you block or dodge it based on stats. You can freely shoot with no target, and if something walks into the shot you get a hit. You can move/jump while shooting. The only hybrid part of it is how you’re going to hit your target as long as your reticle is red (if they don’t dodge it) and right now it seems it can be red even if you’re aiming slightly off to the side of the target which could/should be tightened up a little bit and then I think it would be perfect (for a hybridized system).
I can see myself and my group (mostly action players) enjoying the gameplay and I don’t feel like the players who are going to use tab target will have an advantage with the current system, mostly for the projectile reasoning I started with.
I found the ranger demo very exciting and enjoyable. And I found the ranger combat pretty badass. Thank you, team, for your hard work! Side note: The artwork is coming along so nicely.
I am NOT an action combat player; I much prefer tab targeting. Actually, I tend to stop playing a game when it's an action combat focused game. However, I enjoy that there is a hybrid system for people who would like to use one, the other, or both. My only concern is that action combat has more incentives than tab targeting. And possibly will introduce unfair advantages for those that can't or won't play the opposite style (like launching random arrows all over the place). I think there shouldn't be incentives to one or the other, nor should there be any meaningful benefits. I feel like the focus should be making the two available, but not making one more advantageous over the other. If debate gets out of hand and consensus cannot be made in terms of equal play, I advocate to tab-only targeting, if it comes to that. However, I hope this game to be as inclusive to play styles as possible.
With all that said, I'm excited about the direction the team is taking this.
Thank you, again!
This will also unlock some crafting of ammunition items.
The action camera isn't meant to turn the game into a first person shooter. It is in the game as another style of selecting which target you want to be locked on to, which is the best decision.
I like the style and way the archer looks but it does still feel like there is not enough difference between the hard hitting longbow and the "fast" shortbow from the drawtime. Regarding the skills i think they look hella dope. But i got a question regarding the debuff from quickshot is that for 1 player only where the dmg stack works or are other rangers also getting the dmg increase + stack up in wvich case u could with good team management burst ppl down. And depending on Teamwork u could even top off ur best geared archer if u give him 2 lower lvl/ low dps member So they stack up the debuff and He geht's last shot. Which u could do 3 times/ 9 uses of the quickshot.
I will provide some answers to the questions and then I'll provide some additional feedback and/or insight.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
-I would love to see awesome attack animations, great sounds when casting/firing and on hit/miss/dodge, but specially when you CRIT! Also I would love to get more information about weapon speed, how will weapon effects be incorporated (slow,dot,armor penn,etc..).
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
-There is no right or wrong, or too much variety for me ... I want to see from Ninja-ish Assasin types to Elvish Woodlands, from Tracker/Poachers to Naturalist types (Have a connection with animals). The more the merrier!
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
-As others have already mentioned some games like GW2,ESO, NW, WOW,etc .. have got it right in terms of some of their ... Aimed, Telegraph, AOE Abilities, not to forget DOTs! They can always improve! In this day and age a bit of challenge is good and specially innovation is always welcome!
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I will continue to say that I do appreciate how Intrepid is interacting with its community. Feedback should always be welcome! Specially in business. So, kudos for them for having an open-minded approach and wanting the game to excel in every aspect. It takes time, dedication and to have a good ear (in the market) to make a good product!
The Live Streams:
-I love the fact that Intrepid is always upfront about things and that they showcase their progress at every step of the way. I specially love their updates!
-I would have to agree with folks that the environment was beautiful. I would have loved to see a snappier AI, more aggresive/agile enemies but I may be getting ahead of myself. For me combat should be like a dance, or a reaction to the action that the player took.
-I would have to agree with some folks that more clarity is needed in regards to what is Action-Combat and to showcase it better moving forward.
Long Bow / Short Bow
-LB was almost the same size as short bow. I was expecting slower shots. Mobility while firing should be a factor. The ranger's arsenal kit should help in some way, but then again, LB's gamble is the more still you are at range, the deadlier.
-SB was good. Quick, mobile with less damage per hit, but with a good sustain damage.
Auto-attack GCDs are important for class balancing as well. And I will say it again, mobility while attacking should be a factor, for all classes. Slower movement while you are attacking. This goes hand in hand with auto-attack GCDs. Get close enough to your target, then attack. Target too far? You can sacrifice the dodge mechanic to convert it to a gap closer or use an ability that will reposition you. The same should apply to range attackers. Stay still and pull big/constant hits or attack at range and keep a bit of distance by relocating to avoid taking melee damage (Risk/Reward).
Ammo:
I am happy that Intrepid took this route. Less hassle for the player althought an artisan/merchant loss (shouldnt be an issue as you could sell almost anything and can increase the price based on the demand).
Also I have read a few pages and this is my two cents on the matter:
The "Dont give them what they want" and similar arguments sounds rather childish, even selfish.
In some cases: Never HATE the player, hate the game that allowed it to happened.
Just state your thoughts and experiences.
Provide feedback on what you like and dislike. What made that experience enjoyable, etc. Give people the freedom to choose. And Remember that the Risk/Reward is a core value of AOC.
We all have hoped for something better, something new. That is why we are here having these discussions.
In my mind, the below suggestions may help in a way balance some of the complaints on Tab Targetting VS ACTION-COMBAT (auto attacks, switch between target, and use certain Abilities).
Intrepid could implement something like:
" \--- *---/" <
You can press tab and target enemies within the ranges ... You can shoot what you see!
Or
"\-*-/" <
You can Aim Freely and/or target enemies within the small ranges ... You can shoot what you see!
Or
Do Hibrids of these two and and provide more options if needed...
This creates the possibility for aim assist and/or to have more control over your targetting (if desired).
Intrepid in the end will move towards what they had envisioned (taking feedback here and there). But please Intrepid, No Casting or targetting other players when they are out of Line-Of-Sight(or at their backs).
Some have mentioned a few scenarios where some player attacks will never miss their target, etc. For me, at this point it is still fine. They have a point of reference and want feedback to move forward.
We still dont know exactly how the dodge ability works. <
This may possibly help avoid certain ability hits.
We still dont know if players will have an active block ability. <
This may possibly help avoid the auto attack dilemma, in-coming damage, etc.
And dont forget that projectiles can be avoided by covering behind objects, Mobs or other players ...There is a lot that it is still unknown.
Im praying for the release date of the next test run .. now that combat is the next focus...
Long Bow should be Precise long range high dmg (with zoom option for aiming) Not a hit scan but close if fully charged etc, Traps, Aoe dmg, Bonus dmg for headshot/crits, CC and stuff
I was always a big "sniper gameplay" fan going full glass cannon 2 Shoting people/dying to everything . New World did it well with Musket and I hope to see even better version here as well
you didn't talk about his abilities and the skils he will have
you just showed 3 skils of level 1 and without cheat code you would have died 5 times
this is not a class presentation !
to do that it would be better to show nothing
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
@Malotrux
The intention was to show basic, fundamental, rudimentary attacks of a ranger.
The question asked is "Do you like the direction, principle, proposition of this design?"
This is so that they can know as early as possible if they need to change the basic, fundamental, rudimentary attacks of the ranger. Otherwise it is very difficult and expensive to change later if players do not like it after they have a fully finished archer design.
I think the most important aspect with any type of MMO combat is the OOMPH feeling with combat. There needs to be some weight behind it. I dislike floaty type combat very much. The second most important piece is that it needs to be engaging. Not just standing still and pressing buttons until things die. I liked the constant movement and repositioning.
I can't think of a recent MMO that has great ranged combat. I felt good things about the musket game play in New World and I liked the little bit of WIldstar I played. I would say Guild Wars 2 is okay as well. ESO is the game to not copy as they have the worse floaty combat that I can remember.
The one thing I really got excited about with the ranged dps showcase was the high quality animations and what appeared to be weighty combat. Some good OOMPH in it.
Looking forward to more gameplay videos. Can't wait to see more animations.
Edit: rewatched the video again. Forgot to mention I like that you are developing a traditional tab target system in addition to a more action orientated free look and soft lock system. This is key to a modern MMO.
If archery is intended to be somewhat realistic, you might find it interessting to know shorter bows (and in particular shorter limbs, the part of the bow that store energy) provide higher projectile velocity than longer bows (or limbs), while longer bows provide stability, increasing accuracy and precision.
I think that the Ranger should have his boundary to nature and the aspect of going on the hunt more combined to his skillset. So for example I´d like to have some "Nature-Magic" , so he can Buff himself(or party?). He use the healing power of nature to heal himself and use the desease powers of nature to poison his arrows. Also it would be nice if he has some kind of Meele-Combat in his skillset. So he hunts the enemys down, kite it arrow by arrow, but when he see the oppertunity to end the wounded enemys life, dashing in and slice the enemy down. Or when the enemy comes into range, we can have a backflip-kick, for getting some distance by jumping backwards and kicking the enemy away.
Also some some kind of camouflage-skill will be very appreciate! (Combined with a bonus in stealth surprise attack)
And last but not least i really love if he can summon a companion on his side, like a falcon, wolf, weasel, bear, or something like that...or have the ability of shapeshifting for example in a bear and getting a whole new skillset while in this form!
One last thing, but hasn´t to do anything with the ranger itself: Please consider to give us the possibility to rearange the graphics. So everyone can have a fluid experience even when they have a potato pc, the game should run stable. Sure, not looking as awesome as it could look like, but at least running stable. So it defnelty is a game for everyones (hardware).
Love the progress and can´t wait too see what you coming up with next!
One thing I like from some games is the ability at high levels for the Ranger to remain viable while still being mobile. I can't remember the MMO right now, but one had a system I hated where at the top levels the Ranger had to basically be a rooted sniper to achieve the best dps. This then became "the meta," and pretty much ruined grouping experiences/opportunities, etc... for players who opted for the mobile skill tree. I'm not saying there should not be a sniper-type option, just that both types should remain viable at endgame.
Thanks for the terrific work!
---Having different options to address different types of threats.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
---Rangers in my mind are known for their stealth, traps, bows, daggers, tracking, smoke bombs, pets (or use of animals) and camouflage. It would be fun to see them employ a lot of unique tactics, more than just being "the bow character" - as they seem to be in other games.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
---I've always liked the idea of thrown traps, different types of arrows, misdirection, and some benefits to team synergy. (perhaps with other Rangers?)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
---The main concern I have with any type of ranged class (and I'm looking at you WoW Hunter), is that they can become unkillable with kiting. Traps, slows, out ranging, silences, snares, interrupts, etc - ranged / bow classes can become almost impossible to kill, especially for melee classes.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
1- what are the problems and implications of aimed shots in large scale pvp?
2- you can dodge aimed shots. tab targetted cant be dodged. imagine an archer party decides you shouldnt live, they just click you (from so far away you cant stop them) and press 1 then you die, nothing you can do about it. the only counter is dont get clicked on. how is that better than having the ability to dodge the shot?
Honestly surprised this aspect of ranger utility has not been discussed as much.
This dedicated ability will not be on the ability bar; but would be on the left side of the ability bar, not connected to it.
For example this special ability is key bonded to Q. At the beginning of the game (level 1) there are only basic arrows. A class quest will become available to unlock new arrow types later on. These class quests can be very unique.
Each special arrow type ability can be gained by competing class quest and unlocking those arrow types.
Not all of these arrow types can be equipped at the same time. Only 3 are able to be equipped, but can be changed when out of combat for X amount of time.
To rotate between the 3 different types of arrows the ranger would press Q.
If the ranger has basic arrow, heavy arrow and poison arrow equip, they can cycle through them till it get to the arrow they desire. Additionally these arrow types can be keybinded to whatever the ranger would prefer.
An arrow type like the heavy arrow can be unlocked at level 10 after a ranger quest is complete.
Special arrow examples:
Heavy arrow - slower projectile speed, more damage
Ice arrow - slows enemies movement speed by X
Poison arrow - nature damage over time
Wounding arrow - target takes X amount of increase damage
Unholy arrow - negates X amount of healing
Arrow types can also only be for certain subclasses:
Magic arrow - pierces armor (mage subclass)
Necro arrow - summons a skeleton (summoner sub class)
Recon arrow - allows user to see stealth enemies (rogue sub class)
If certain arrow types are considered too over powered, they can be nerfed easily.
For example the unholy arrow. The ranger can only hold 3 of these at a time. 1 unholy arrow can be replenish on a cooldown of 1 minute. If the ranger has none, it takes 3 minutes to gain all 3 back.
P.S. If this gains traction I can mention more arrow types i think would be useful.
A "ranger" is a warden of some nature. As a warden, their utility should be around vision+knowledge and the advantages you get from such, including home-ground advantage. They plan ahead with traps and knowledge to counter the enemies on their land.
Vision+knowledge:
Utilizing vision+knowledge
Group Buffs - While Rangers bias towards personal utility, it is meaningful in a cooperative MMO to still be able to help their party. Group buffs can include enhancing party walking speed while outdoors/in nature, covering the tracks of the party, giving the party stealth while remaining still (hiding), giving vision buffs to the party, and utilizing herbs to cure diseases, stem bleeding, and perform modest healing over time. The ranger may go solo, but allies can benefit from increased crit damage and chances as the Ranger informs them where the weak spots are.
Mobility - Rangers shouldn't be a highly mobile sprint class. That is the realm of Rogues and Warriors. They shouldn't jump as well as Rogues, either. For Rangers it should be endurance, climbing, hiding, moving over/through terrain, and raw base walking speed (also a quality of life improvement, and justification for, Ranger players wanting to do long-range scouting all the time). They want to be able to get to the highest point for scouting, or at least a high one for getting the drop on an enemy.