Dygz wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » By Steven's definition, you can only be griefed if the action was intended to harass the player. So defending one's node does not fit this definition. What you or I think griefing is defined as is irrelevant at this point. Well, my definition of griefing fits within Steven's. But, yes, what matters, really is how Steven's definition affects the game design.
Dolyem wrote: » By Steven's definition, you can only be griefed if the action was intended to harass the player. So defending one's node does not fit this definition. What you or I think griefing is defined as is irrelevant at this point.
Sylvanar wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Your reasoning assumes all corruption is griefing. When it can be as simple as dealing with PvE griefing. So it's a moot point. Now if we are complaining about getting corruption from camping players and killing lowbies who aren't fighting back...that would make more sense with your point. See you are trying to perfect human behavior through a set of rules. If it were possible then such laws would have been made IRL and we would be living in a utopia where everyone would always be happy and shooting rainbows. Solvryn wrote: » You didn’t come up in full loot MMOs or come up in hardcore PvP environments, so I don’t expect you to get it right away. This is as hardcore as hardcore guess tbh. AoC is only somewhat hardcore. Lets say we have honor killing guilds with special rules applied for them... What can make it so that griefers cant achieve the same? Or stop a member of that special guild from exploiting those rules at times? A guild filled to brim can't police more than a couple of nodes and actively policing isn't even fun all the time. Honor killing would need constant GM oversight for it to be effective. This isn't early 2000s. A lot of players are a lot more actively toxic now.
Dolyem wrote: » Your reasoning assumes all corruption is griefing. When it can be as simple as dealing with PvE griefing. So it's a moot point. Now if we are complaining about getting corruption from camping players and killing lowbies who aren't fighting back...that would make more sense with your point.
Solvryn wrote: » You didn’t come up in full loot MMOs or come up in hardcore PvP environments, so I don’t expect you to get it right away.
Sylvanar wrote: » Again, griefing through PK is only a subset of griefing. The only way I see to lessen griefing in your games is to have a good guild and friends. People who will back you up. Its hard to define a system that can quantify intent. Hence, none exist. My take on this: Corruption is a way to deter PK griefing without having to jump through hoops. Griefing via mobs isn't like jumping someone from stealth and killing them in 2-3 seconds... That is a >30 second commitment to a play where if the other player is smart or attentive enough can easily get out of dodge... a very meh option overall for the griefer. This is why I am okay with the system as it is because it gets rid of all the lazy griefers right of the bat. So basically: - Simple enough. - Exploitable, but not straight-forward. - Chances of failure or the situation being turned around exist as well.
Sylvanar wrote: » I can only think of 1 way to make corruption system more effective and keep it simple at the same time: - When a green player is attacked by an already agro-ed mob or another player, they will get immunity for 5 or so seconds. This will give the player a chance to decide if he wants to defend or not and go from there. This way we preserve owPvP, keep corruption system simple, more effective...maybe, just maybe make the penalties associated with the system more bearable to make bounty hunter system more relevant. Thoughts.
Raven016 wrote: » @Dolyem What if players could decide the default state they want to get after the purple timeout of ends? - if they see themselves more often as non-combatant they would chose light green - if they see themselves more often in combatant state they would chose dark green The dark green would get less corruption as you suggested in the OP but would also notify before attacking that he is often determined to kill. That way the light greens could chose to attack first or to flee instead of waiting what happens when their health is low level - if the attacker stops before killing or if finishes them.
Sylvanar wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Your reasoning assumes all corruption is griefing. When it can be as simple as dealing with PvE griefing. So it's a moot point. Now if we are complaining about getting corruption from camping players and killing lowbies who aren't fighting back...that would make more sense with your point. See you are trying to perfect human behavior through a set of rules. If it were possible then such laws would have been made IRL and we would be living in a utopia where everyone would always be happy and shooting rainbows. Solvryn wrote: » You didn’t come up in full loot MMOs or come up in hardcore PvP environments, so I don’t expect you to get it right away. This is as hardcore as hardcore guess tbh. AoC is only somewhat hardcore. Lets say we have honor killing guilds with special rules applied for them... What can make it so that griefers cant achieve the same? Or stop a member of that special guild from exploiting those rules at times? A guild filled to brim can't police more than a couple of nodes and actively policing isn't even fun all the time. Honor killing would need constant GM oversight for it to be effective. This isn't early 2000s. A lot of players are a lot more actively toxic now. Again, griefing through PK is only a subset of griefing. The only way I see to lessen griefing in your games is to have a good guild and friends. People who will back you up. Its hard to define a system that can quantify intent. Hence, none exist. My take on this: Corruption is a way to deter PK griefing without having to jump through hoops. Griefing via mobs isn't like jumping someone from stealth and killing them in 2-3 seconds... That is a >30 second commitment to a play where if the other player is smart or attentive enough can easily get out of dodge... a very meh option overall for the griefer. This is why I am okay with the system as it is because it gets rid of all the lazy griefers right of the bat. So basically: - Simple enough. - Exploitable, but not straight-forward. - Chances of failure or the situation being turned around exist as well. I can only think of 1 way to make corruption system more effective and keep it simple at the same time: - When a green player is attacked by an already agro-ed mob or another player, they will get immunity for 5 or so seconds. This will give the player a chance to decide if he wants to defend or not and go from there. This way we preserve owPvP, keep corruption system simple, more effective...maybe, just maybe make the penalties associated with the system more bearable to make bounty hunter system more relevant. Thoughts.
Depraved wrote: » Raven016 wrote: » @Dolyem What if players could decide the default state they want to get after the purple timeout of ends? - if they see themselves more often as non-combatant they would chose light green - if they see themselves more often in combatant state they would chose dark green The dark green would get less corruption as you suggested in the OP but would also notify before attacking that he is often determined to kill. That way the light greens could chose to attack first or to flee instead of waiting what happens when their health is low level - if the attacker stops before killing or if finishes them. no. no warning people that you like attacking others. suspense is more fun. plus that means they will set attack first n stuff :P
Raven016 wrote: » Can a potential aggressor know if the bags a mule carries are loaded with valuable stuff?
Depraved wrote: » Raven016 wrote: » Can a potential aggressor know if the bags a mule carries are loaded with valuable stuff? also no. reduces the risk and increases the rewardbecause now you can select who to pk. yeah ttk is 30 seconds but if i hit you a few times before the fight starts, you arent full hp anymore..so now ttk is 15 seconds. also we dont know if ttk is with 1 person attacking you or 4 dps in a party attacking you. people were dying quite fast in a1, probs still wasnt balanced hehehe
Dolyem wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Raven016 wrote: » Can a potential aggressor know if the bags a mule carries are loaded with valuable stuff? also no. reduces the risk and increases the rewardbecause now you can select who to pk. yeah ttk is 30 seconds but if i hit you a few times before the fight starts, you arent full hp anymore..so now ttk is 15 seconds. also we dont know if ttk is with 1 person attacking you or 4 dps in a party attacking you. people were dying quite fast in a1, probs still wasnt balanced hehehe I believe it was said that caravans do show some semblance of what they are carrying. But I could be wrong.
Dolyem wrote: » I mean, you can feel harassed from a player killing you for harvesting resources from their node. But if the intent of the kill was to defend the node, it wasn't griefing.
Depraved wrote: » well, u think that if you are picking flowers and you arent in the mood for pvp and someone coms and kills you, that is griefing. it isnt. and steven definition is different.
Dygz wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I mean, you can feel harassed from a player killing you for harvesting resources from their node. But if the intent of the kill was to defend the node, it wasn't griefing. That's what Corruption is for. Not griefing if it's not frequently repeated in quick succession. Corruption is designed to deter that.
Dolyem wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I mean, you can feel harassed from a player killing you for harvesting resources from their node. But if the intent of the kill was to defend the node, it wasn't griefing. That's what Corruption is for. Not griefing if it's not frequently repeated in quick succession. Corruption is designed to deter that. If you are killed many times in a short time period yea. But getting killed once or twice, not so much. But I'd even argue that if you're harvesting to hurt the node, killing you repeatedly is not griefing. It's defending the node. Hence the flaw. Not easy to differentiate.
Depraved wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I mean, you can feel harassed from a player killing you for harvesting resources from their node. But if the intent of the kill was to defend the node, it wasn't griefing. That's what Corruption is for. Not griefing if it's not frequently repeated in quick succession. Corruption is designed to deter that. If you are killed many times in a short time period yea. But getting killed once or twice, not so much. But I'd even argue that if you're harvesting to hurt the node, killing you repeatedly is not griefing. It's defending the node. Hence the flaw. Not easy to differentiate. even if he isnt trying ot hurt the node. if someone is randomly picking flowers and i kill that person, that isnt griefing. if they come back and i killed them again, that isnt griefing. if they come back 10 times and i kill them 10 times, that isnt griefing. maybe im trying to get the flowers for myself and dont want others gathring near me. if i follow him around from area to area for no reason and just keep killing him, thats griefing. if i go and kill level 10 as a lvl 30 over and over for no reason, thats also griefing. however, if i kill low levels because i want the mobs in the earea or the flowers, or maybe im helping a friend levle up, that isnt griefing. as long as you have something to gain from killing someone else, that isnt griefing. griefing is when you follow someone around with the intention of making him quit the game.
Solvryn wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I mean, you can feel harassed from a player killing you for harvesting resources from their node. But if the intent of the kill was to defend the node, it wasn't griefing. That's what Corruption is for. Not griefing if it's not frequently repeated in quick succession. Corruption is designed to deter that. If you are killed many times in a short time period yea. But getting killed once or twice, not so much. But I'd even argue that if you're harvesting to hurt the node, killing you repeatedly is not griefing. It's defending the node. Hence the flaw. Not easy to differentiate. So diminishing returns on an internal corruption timer sounds like an idea. Or at least that what comes to mind to me.
