Looking great. One idea I had is to make some of the skill modifiers mutually exclusive. That way you can allocate a higher power budget to them (and make them more distinct). This could give you an additional lever beyond just the total number of points given to players, and it will force people to make explicit decisions about their build.
Great showcase. Combat looked real fluid and impactful. One thing I took exception with was that super fast thrust that had a chance to proc on the 3rd or 4th weapon combo strike. Wouldn't it make more sense for it to be an off hand strike? That's what would happen in a real fight, so wouldn't it be cool to see the occasional, lateral fist to the face during the basic combo?
Also, I really hope you plan on making that Forlorn Hero's Memorial a lot more fancy.
It looks the the mini-map gets a red border after attacking another player, probably to indicate you're a combatant/purple. It's good to have an indicator for that, but I'd prefer to have a setting to toggle the mini-map effects off if possible.
My one comment that I think you should implement for the fighter(not playing one btw) is a size increase or tempoary size increase. While he is in his "God" mode, with the immune to CC, for as long as he continues to stay in that mode with his continuous attacks, his character is enlarged by 20% and he looks like an unstoppable onslaught force that is large and in charge!
All the fighter abilities look great! I liked seeing the reduced and simplified flash in the basic attack's arc as well. Really well done and implemented. The inertia when hitting an enemy is a sweet touch, but there should probably be a couple more frames present in the animation than we see because it is a little too jagged. The bottom-half, leg animations are completely fine and do not take away from the overall silhouette. No more need be done on the legs unless you all are crazy perfectionists.
I have two concerns involving what we've seen in this livestream:
1. The amount of visual clarity in regards to multiple spell effects.
This has been talked about in many previous livestreams, and is even talked about in this livestream. This issue has become even more prevalent when more characters come on screen, and when it's considered that player vs. player battles are intended to be in the hundreds, there is no way that spell effects can remain the way that are shown here. I think the change that was made with simplifying the basic weapon attack's arc would be a great thing to implement to all the abilities. Flashy abilities are cool, but with the amount of players planned to be on screen they can't exist. This is in regards mainly to lighting effects and colors. Things like the fighter doing a flip don't necessarily fit what I'm talking about.
2. The pace of combat.
Along with flashy animations, it seems as though the increase in complex abilities has increased the player's agency and their ability to squash enemies. Is this the goal? I'm not an expert on combat in videogames, but in regards to creating epic, drawn-out battles, would you need combat to be slower? While fighting those goblins, it looked like you were aoe farming them in the same vein as some modern version of World of Warcraft or Final Fantasy XIV. You do mention that the fighter is exceptionally good at fighting groups of enemies, but should that aptitude mean killing said groups as quickly as we see? I am a large fan of the combat encounters of vanilla World of Warcraft, and in that game, the difficulty of enemies is often simply the time it takes to kill them, because of the relatively low damage dished out by players. Additionally, the speed at which the enemies in the preview were killed is concerning when considering that Steven's planned group size is 8 players. With the complex toolkits present in an 8 player party, how will farming combat encounters feel meaningful?
How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?
I really liked most of the spells shown, I feel whirlwind needs to be longer, also Exert needs to be a bigger aura and if cd is long enough I dont see the spell too overpower, dmg will be done in balance, other than that I feel pretty good about it without seeing all weapon combos or someother spells. I feel its lacking some raid utility spells (like the one you mention from the rogue archetype...finding secret doors)
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
I want to play mage, and still waiting on Rogue and also Summoner to see if I am interested so What excites me is trying arena comps with fighter archetypes to see if it can work out.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
Just more Utility spells, this is because I like group interaction between classes on pve and pvp.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Diablo like spells from barbarian are pretty cool, and would like to see something similar.
What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
We havent seen it all yet but looks to be pretty good so far.
I wanted to take the oportunity to ask mage devs to make its kit more fluid like Ranger and Fighter are doing right now.
Mage needs way more elements.... I know we havent seen some spells yet but for example ball lightning feels too slow compared to other spells and I feel mage gameplay should really feel fast pace and clever which some of its kit is but it doesnt connect atm.
Also I think as general feedback on fluidity, tapping movement keys from stationary looks awkward- the start and the stop of the animation seems too long for the short movement- could be worth changing the animations for small movement from stationary to prevent small movement from being immersion breaking.
This month’s looting showcase was great. I heard someone mention something about a fighter.
Would like to see these pre-alpha 2 archetypes in a bit of a Bounty system/PVP showcase so that we can get a feel for how these classes match up as well as show how corruption works out in game and to demonstrate the diminishing returns of stacking too much of it.
Maybe different races too, just to mix it up and provide a glimpse of what’s to come.
How about a change of scenery. The Riverlands are OK, but it seems we’ve been there for a really long time.
Finally, why not a demonstration on how to dial down or dial up the effects settings and what that looks like. Have you considered a slider for realistic to fantastical effect styles?
The good:
1. The skill interaction of Trip + Maim. The setup -> payoff, and combining of abilities makes me happy, even better if they can be participated in by many players. It promotes communication and raises personal and group skill ceiling. More of that, please.
2. Rupture is fun and has tactical considerations. It's better than "me smash you, big numbers".
The neutral:
1. The individual weapon skill progression of "learning by doing" gets a huge thumbs up from me. It seems like a nice change from the usual generic points at level-up. However, the pace of progression will need a lot of testing. Players should be able to test few different weapon setups, before they decide to settle in one that fits their style. A jack-of-all-trades approach in regards with skills that each take time to practice rarely works in a highly optimized gameplay.
The bad:
1. The quest progress with toy soldier worried me. If there is a quest to collect unique items that drop from a specific enemy, a party member should be able to pick up one of each item, or they should be tradeable at least. If player A picks up multiples of the same quest item (that he needs only 1 of) and effectively hampers progression for player B (who has one), and they can't trade quest items, it's not a good sign. Stealing quest items will generate unnecessary, artificial friction in the party, whether it is done accidentally or on purpose. The latter could be considered harassment. It's also completely avoidable, if unique quest items are truly unique (a.k.a. you physically cannot pick up than you need for the completion), or if they are tradeable to other party members on the same quest.
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AliceMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Where did these skills go? Active Blocking. Dodging. We need those back. Not a 2004 tab combat.
Remove RNG blocking. Remove RNG CC. Luck is not a skill, a random CC can ruin your combo, since each CC has a different duration.
Make Blitz usable without a target so that it's used for mobility.
With Lunging Assault AND Exert giving the fighter CC immunity, Blitz being a targeted skill is it too powerful and unfun to play against for ranged classes. I know this from experience because I've played Archer and Mage in Archeage which had a similar fighter class. And the fact that this game doesn't have iframe dodging doesn't help.
And bring these back too. I didn't support Ashes of Creation in 2017 to play Archeage 2.0.
How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?
No complaints about the general direction of the fighter. Distinguishes itself pretty well from the Tank, and looks like it would be fun to play.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
I'm not normally a Fighter player myself, as I prefer rogue/tank/support classes. But the general kit and rotations seemed to be going in a good direction.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
More concerns than anything. In terms of the fighter itself, there seemed to be too much mobility for a fighter/bruiser class in my opinion. On top of having a reset when killing a target with lethal blow has me a bit worried when you also stack in Leap Strike as a skill. If memory serves me right the ranger had Disengage and Airstrike? I'm not sure what the cooldowns will be on the skills between these two classes, but I don't believe it would be healthy for the fighter class to have more gap closing ability then the ranger would have in creating distance. Which worries me more in terms of what the Rogue will have....as I believe the Ranger and Rogue should have the most mobility. If the Fighter can just trade movement skills and still be in melee distance with a Ranger, I believe that to be a fundamental problem. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe a ranger should be able to kite to their hearts content, but I would of pictured a Rogue being able to close the gap, as they are innately squishy glass cannons who need to quickly dispatch a target before they die, compared to a hulking behemoth who is quick, can close gaps, and deal large damage.
I like the idea of stances, but giving movement speed is not something I approve of. Better for the fighter to have cripple like hamstringing skills compared to overall movement speed. I believe movement speed should only be given to a rogue to allow them to gap close and hunt down a target. Giving that to a heavy armor DPS melee class seems imbalanced. Lineage 2 did this very well. Daggers had the most movement speed, coupled along with skills to increase their movement speed, but would be very squishy and prone to die from range (archers/mages). This worked VERY well in the rock paper scissors format of group combat. If a dagger class got the drop on someone, they could kill quickly, but if they didn't have the element of surprise and were forced to chase a target at range, or being the surprised target themselves, they could be killed before reaching the attacker.
Giving the fighter a speed boost in the Celerity Stance seems a bit too op for the fighter, I understand they need momentum for the increase in speed in said stance, but once again I think it fundamentally is the wrong way to go. Better to give a few of their skills a hamstring like effect to slow a target they have caught, rather than giving them too much mobility, a hamstring, and movement speed boosts to forever chase a target.
Also the rupture skill is just too much blood...lol. As Steven stated in the dev update, it was too over the top. I understand the need to visually see a debuff on the target, but definitely overboard with the visuals of that skill. In general the visual effects and sprites in AoC are a bit excessive, I really do hope we have the option of toning them down a bit, and not just straight up eliminating them, a nice balance would be appreciated.
The second and extremely concerning topic goes back to attack animations. I brought this up during the first combat revamp dev update where the fighter was shown off with great sword and dual melee weapons. The attack animations have a weird stutter lag every time they hit the target. Which is VERY jarring to look at. I'm not sure if this is an animation problem, or an underlying system issue...But it is present in this showcase as well and it's quite upsetting to see. Quite a lot of individuals were bringing it up in the Twitch chat, and hopefully were not flooded out by the positive praise that fanboys throw out every stream. I made some gifs for examples.
Basic attack below...As you can see, there is a frozen body which results in broken looking kinematics upon hitting said target. The body freezes for a few frames and jerks into a forward frame position, which is very unpleasant.
It even happens in skills, which is surprising considering how fast the character is spinning. As a result it also desyncs the sword air slash animations, which makes everything look even worse.
Only when it's on hit, not when it misses.
Some skills don't exhibit this problem.
A couple more scenarios to show how jarring it is....
I really hope all the praise being thrown in twitch chat doesn't muffle out the actual problem this is. As I tend to always see a lot of fanboy'ism in twitch chat saying combat looks smooth, when it really doesn't. Hoping that bringing this up again is enough to get it the attention it deserves, cause it makes the game look laggy, when it's actually a problem under the hood.
If this was a design decision to convey impact, I believe this is the wrong direction to go. Being an individual who has played many MMO's, as well as L2 back at launch, just the sparks of impact and target wincing is enough coupled with the audio queues. Hoping this can be remedied, cause it's not a minor issue.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Nothing that comes to mind worth mentioning. Visually though I did get some L2 Destroyer vibes, which made me smile. Also like the approach that was taken with the orc visuals, most my alley compared to the Asian orc themed concept art we got previously.
What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Overall good. Besides what I brought up about the stance and movement speed aspect which I disagree with, the only thing I would recommend is reducing the AOE radius of Cataclysm. It seems too large, more of a mage AOE skill radius compared to a fighter skill. I noticed that the dash skill shown in the previous Melee weapon attack update seems to be gone...honestly, I'm glad about this. It would be too much for this kit. But I do believe that skill would be a very nice addition to the rogue as it fits it more thematically.
Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share them!
I'll have to re-watch the dev update and add my 2 cents, A lot to absorb. Overall digging it. Sword attack speed for the GS looks good this time around. I really do hope we could get specific racial attack animations, as it was a beautifully factor in Lineage 2. It was very iconic and memorable. These animations fit the orc and his large hulky frame well....But I don't think it would look as good on a more slender and smaller framed race.
Also he attack stutter animation I mentioned above is problematic, but that seems to be a game wide issue, not fighter specific. VFX look good, but a little on the heavy side of visuals, mass pvp is going to be very chaotic, so hoping we get some LOD like slider to adjust how much visuals we want. will edit this and add more when I review the video again. But I must say I do love the aesthetic of the current orc...as well as the animations remind me a bit of L2.
Overall, Keep up the great work! Looking good so far.
How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?
Overall positive. visually and audibly its very attractive. The presentation still needs a lot of work because aside from showing off each skill and a brief explanation, we are in dire need of context within the actual flow of combat of the class at whatever level you are showcasing. In order for us to give the best feedback possible, we should see the intended combat gameplay in a party and maybe solo to see how it actually flows together; what does the rotation look and feel like? is the level we see on the xp bar the intended representation of the gameplay we are seeing for that level? If the only gameplay we ever see with these class previews are just steven smashing the abilities in any random order, how can we really see the vision or direction you are taking said class? I've honestly thought there wouldn't really be a WoW-esq rotation based on the combat gameplay i've seen thus far in these class videos because it never appears to be played how its intended. I don't mean to take away from the positive direction combat is going and i understand there is still a lot of work to do but please just present the class with more informed combat gameplay so we can hear you talk about your vision for the class and we can see it in action to judge if its lining up!
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
The potential depth of the combat gameplay and having to spend lots of time mastering the rotation with all the levers we get within the weapon & skill trees.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
I think the use of mana for a fighter is a bit immersion breaking/uninspired. I understand they have momentum already and it may be weird to have another bar that is called something else to replace mana but i think something should be done here. Mana for an augment class that is like a caster (spellsword?) could make sense, but a 'weapon master' using mana doesn't seem right.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I have the most experience with WoW so i'm going to reference the warrior class. I think there are lots of ideas to borrow/be inspired by from the retail warrior class - it has been iterated on for 20 years so they probably have some useful insight.
What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
They seem standard to the classic fighter/warrior class fantasy (which isn't a bad thing). I hope there are lots of more unique, interesting abilities that we will get as we level up.
Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share them!
The animations and the visual effects were quite good. Someone already mentioned that this fighters sword didn't leave marks on the ground like the first fighter preview. Was this because that particular sword was too short? For the final hit of a combo i don't feel like its satisfying enough; needs more OOMPH. Still needs some more impact (maybe a slighty bigger or longer contact hitch that you currently have). its getting closer to BDO impact and that should be the ideal in that aspect.
While the VFX are really well done, i am still seeing the abilities in general (for all shown classes) are a bit too flashy. The visual clutter on the mobs is too much still; i can only imagine how bad it would be in a raid/siege. Some abilities can be flashy but most need to be tuned down, especially when they are hitting for 40 dmg at level 15. I hope there is some visual progression for skills we get early on so that we can see how powerful they become as we level up. Nothing extreme just noticeable. I think for cataclysm the spikes last too long or are maybe too big and i can it becoming an issue in bigger groups (blizzard on the mage too).
How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?
I feel very excited about Fighter and I am sure that I will test this Archetype first in Alpha-2! Fighter feels strong and brutal! 🤘
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
It always feels good to play with strong melee class in MMORPG. Fighters should strike fear into enemies on the battlefield!
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
Everything what I saw on the livestream looked very cool and promising! I can't wait to see other weapon types in action! I'm interested about dual wield axes and 2-handed maces and hammers.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Back in the days when I played Guild Wars 2, Warrior was a disappointment in my opinion. They looked cool but in the battle they (and Rangers) were beaten badly by other classes. Warrior was only fun to play in PvE.
What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I liked the abilities and mechanics very much and loved how mobile the Fighter Archetype is! I loved very much the rework of the Cataclysm skill BUT there is one thing I would like to change in it. PLEASE CHANGE THE YELLOW LIGHTS INTO ORANGE OR RED and then the skill looks perfect!
Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share them!
I think the great sword animations looked good enough. I'm not into great swords but I can't wait to see other weapon types like I mentioned before in this comment. Skill trees looked little bit messy in my opinion but I think it will change in process.
Overall this stream was very exciting. It was fun to finally see Ren' Kai orc in the game and I'm hoping to see Dünir dwarves soon on the future livestreams before Alpha-2.
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TryolMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 30
I was very happy with everything showcased, the game is truly coming together.
I do have some nitpicks which are all visual related, and considering the massive amount of improvement we've seen in that front the past few months, I'm not concerned by any means.
I'll mention them nevertheless:
Impact/freeze frames
The impact/freeze frames that happen on connection make the combat feel less fluid. I feel like it's a cheap way to fake impact. I'd be happy if you could find an alternative to it, like a more pronounced flinch animation on the enemy, basically anything BUT a freeze. Even if you were to remove it, I feel like the hit effects and the sounds alone are good enough and make the combat impactful even without the freeze frames.
VFX intensity
The VFX on some skills like the fighter's leap & cataclysm are way too intense, but this was the case for many of the mages' skills as well and most of them are resolved now, so I trust the team with this.
Overall VERY pleased with the progress. Great work.
I think the greatsword is a bit too quick for its type. Smaller swords would feel excellent with these speeds. I'd like to see slower weapon swings but more kick, backhand, disarm type things that can be weaved in between the swings. Greatswords and 2H Hammers should FEEL like you're swinging a huge hunk of metal around. Don't get me wrong a lot of abilities do already feel that way, but the faster swings just feel out of place to me in comparison.
The whirlwind ending animation (the hit upowards) doesn't flow very nicely. Ending one armed could look better for example.
Edit* I think its the basic attack/weapon combo that I mean by this
This was an amazing showcase. So many noticable improvements that have been made since the last fighter showcase, for example the cataclysm ability (the yellow glowing overhead smash) looks far better than what it used to be. Seeing things be improved in such a way gives a lot of hope for the direction you're heading in and even if you don't hit the mark right away it's very promising to see you're able to change direction and make the needed improvements.
Things I loved:
- The weight behind the attacks and animations looked very nice. Maim is probably one of my favourite abilities I've seen you guys ever showcase. The sound, the colour, the animation of the front twist into the heavy weighted slam, the added projectile progression... Just perfect.
- The sounds effects of the abilities especially the buffs and debuffs were great.
- Blitz looks very fluid and seamless, it doesn't look clunky or like there are strange animations or changes in momentum and I think it's a great benchmark for how other movement abilities should feel. I also love you can use it slightly vertically too.
- Love the 3 different stances/forms that give options and decision making to your combat playstyle depending on the engagement. Fighting a mobile enemy? Use the Celerity form to keep up with them. Need to burst someone down and get your attacks out quicker? Use the ferocity form. Getting locked down and need more survivability? Switch to Fluidity form. I love that sort of dynamic in combat and with how much horizontal progression you guys are putting in the game and options to builds you're adding, if balanced correctly it should make a lot of different playstyles and pathways viable depending on the encounter that's being faced rather than there being one meta build that outshines the rest in every situation.
- Having control of your character and being able to cancel channeled abilities like the whirlwind mid way through always feel nice. I like that you're leaning a lot more into giving players choice and control in their movements instead of being locked into things, makes combat feel a lot better.
Suggestions:
- Some of the finishing hits could be a bit more noticeable and flashy, such as the final hit of the whirlwind that you can unlock in your progressions and the final hit of your basic attack chain.
- The execute ability could feel a bit more impactful and noticeable.
- Regarding the increased "% Disable Resistance Chance" on the form of fluidity which is RNG based, perhaps it would be better to make the buff give you "% Reduced Resistance Duration", either instead of what it currently is or as an addition to give some more consistency to that form. So basically instead of just having a % chance of resisting a crowd control entirely, it gives you a buff that reduces the effectiveness/duration of crowd controls, which would make it less luck based and feel more consistent by breaking out of being CC'd faster.
- The blood effect to show bleeding was great but maybe a little excessive hahah, the guy become a blood fountain so maybe needs a little toning down.
- The leap animation could be a bit more smooth and angled instead of feeling too vertical on the landing. It currently looks like you jump then your momentum stops mid air and you come down vertically instead of landing at an angle from where you jumped from. Bit nit picky and maybe that was intentional but just looks a little strange at the end of the animation.
Overall I really liked it. Looking forward to seeing how the big lighting changes will affect the visuals of the game too
If Ranger and Fighter can outright fly, I'm going to be REALLY disappointed if I can't fly too, as a Bard.
I was honestly not expecting the airdasher style gameplay from an MMO, but you know what, I think I could maybe go for that. I'm not sure that's a good thing for Ashes, though. If anyone (or even most people) can choose to be anywhere, then it doesn't matter where anyone is.
I'm worried about Tanks. If a Fighter can just fly over my tank and crash down on my Cleric and Mage, then "If you want to hurt them, you have to go through me!" isn't really a thing anymore. You're stuck with things like transferring incoming damage from an Ally to the Tank. If that's "Allies near me", now your Cleric Mage and Bard are going to be standing clustered near you... right in the AoE range of "Fighter SMASH!", and innumerable Mage abilities. If you go with "tag an Ally to defend", my Fighter's just gonna "SMASH!" the Mage, and Blitz at the Cleric as soon as you link your shield on the Mage. If you don't, they'll just kill them instead. Maybe Tank's "yank" will be enough... if the enemy doesn't have two Fighters for some reason. When everyone can move everywhere, "formations" stop mattering, and you can no longer use them to solve (or create) problems.
I'm worried about Bard. I'm supposed to get formation related buffs, right? If formations don't matter, my team will never have a good incentive to be in one that I can empower. Doing so can only provide our opponents with ways to harm us. Whether that's being able to predict where my allies are going to be standing, or even just losing the damage race through "our Fighter needs to get off the enemy backline to be in position". It'll almost never be worth it.
It's not just that, though. How on earth am I going to be able to even buff my teammates, when one of my Fighter's best actions is to rocket-boost half-way across the map? She's never going to be in range of my Songs. Am I just not going to have range limits? Are you gonna solve this by making that not matter? You kindof have to if you're living in a world where formations don't work. But then I lose other things.
In FFXI, Bard songs have a specific range limit. It's quite far, honestly. I can hit all of my party without trouble unless we've really spread out for some reason. But I also can move and reposition myself further back, off to the side, or even behind the enemy (in PvE at least), so that that range limit now cuts my party in half. It lets me put the right buffs on the right allies, since in that game, Bard has a limit. The thing is, if you solve this the other way. If Bard doesn't have limits, "BuffBot" is all but guaranteed. In what way is it NOT optimal to just keep buffing my party? Even Hunting Horn needs its limits, and it's one of the best designs against this.
Still, I can see some gameplay where I get in, and get out. Where I can manage to be in somewhat dangerous positions so I can still get off my buffs, without being utterly defenseless to the inevitable. Have some Risk and some Reward. But only if Bard can fly too. Is that good for the game? I'm not sure. But it's required by this design space. All I know is I'm definitely BRD/ROG now, not BRD/RNG.
How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?
The second and extremely concerning topic goes back to attack animations. I brought this up during the first combat revamp dev update where the fighter was shown off with great sword and dual melee weapons. The attack animations have a weird stutter lag every time they hit the target. Which is VERY jarring to look at. I'm not sure if this is an animation problem, or an underlying system issue...But it is present in this showcase as well and it's quite upsetting to see. Quite a lot of individuals were bringing it up in the Twitch chat, and hopefully were not flooded out by the positive praise that fanboys throw out every stream. I made some gifs for examples.
Basic attack below...As you can see, there is a frozen body which results in broken looking kinematics upon hitting said target. The body freezes for a few frames and jerks into a forward frame position, which is very unpleasant.
It even happens in skills, which is surprising considering how fast the character is spinning. As a result it also desyncs the sword air slash animations, which makes everything look even worse.
Only when it's on hit, not when it misses.
Some skills don't exhibit this problem.
A couple more scenarios to show how jarring it is....
I really hope all the praise being thrown in twitch chat doesn't muffle out the actual problem this is. As I tend to always see a lot of fanboy'ism in twitch chat saying combat looks smooth, when it really doesn't. Hoping that bringing this up again is enough to get it the attention it deserves, cause it makes the game look laggy, when it's actually a problem under the hood.
If this was a design decision to convey impact, I believe this is the wrong direction to go. Being an individual who has played many MMO's, as well as L2 back at launch, just the sparks of impact and target wincing is enough coupled with the audio queues. Hoping this can be remedied, cause it's not a minor issue.
I couldn't agree more. This is the first thing I noticed when Steven was attacking. A greatsword is supposed to be heavy and therefore not supposed to stop the motion in a matter of a millisecond. In the opposite, the motion should be constant and fluid and in this showcase, it wasn't.
- I think the RenKai model could be about 20-25% larger. I think they currently look only slightly larger than a human, and I wish they were a little bit heftier.
Here's a mockup I did of just scaling them up roughly 20% (right side):
- AoC sometimes gets a lot of flak for the janky cape physics and weird jog/run animations with weapons, but this time the cape was very cooperative (most of the time). I just saw UE5.4 features improving cloth physics, animation libraries for run/walk, etc. So excited to see what the team can do with them as they continue to polish the animations, etc.
- I think the execution skill could use more fanfare to make it FEEL more impactful and satisfying. Axe from DotA 2 has an execute ultimate that spills a ton of blood on the floor on a successful execute and also resets the cooldown on a successful execute (but has a smaller window to execute). The showcase was very functional but wasn't very exciting.
- IMPACT! I am going to keep shouting about impact, and lack of impact on skill and attack hits. In the showcase hitting the player had some nice subtle head-bobbing stagger animations, which is a nice start- but I think the mobs still lack impact and ragdoll/physics like the stone golems showcased 2 years ago. I think it's okay for the mobs or smaller trash mobs to have more exaggerated staggers. This gives the player a sense that they are powerful- and that's a good thing! You could even keep less staggering for larger, heftier bosses/named mobs, etc. That could help vary up the "combat feel"
-finally, I think many people feel like Steven should give a more experienced pilot a shot at 'playing' with the toolkit. Steven does a great job explaining the toolkit and mechanics/systems during the skill showcase, but during the gameplay (goblin area) - there were many missed opportunities for showing off high-level interactions like the "exert" (god-mode) and the execution skill. I think this way Steven gets to show off his shiny new toys, but also gives a chance for the company to highlight a more "experienced" or advanced user of the class and give them a shot at showing off what the ceiling of the class (at that level) may look like.
This was one of my favorite monthly updates ever (and I don't even main a warrior). I think you guys did a great job showcasing the skills AND showing gameplay. I enjoy this long-format presentation. I think the spell effects look like they had a great pass and looked more presentable in a party/group fight. I think the animations for the skills look great and better than before- even if the basic skill attacks could use a tiny bit more polishing (I expect they will). The plate armor this showcase was the best looking and most presentable set you have done thus far. Just very complete. Also, let's give giant props to the AUDIO/Sound designers for the skills and mobs in this showcase. Wow. They are top-notch. Very nice!
Thanks for all the hard work! I think this was an amazing showcase for the team and gives me a lot of faith in the progress leading up to A2! Excited for more!
I always play Fighters in games and will be playing one in Ashes, so I've been patiently waiting for this update. More than likely an Orc too, so I'm happy to see that. I would say this is an improvement from the last showcase but still needs a lot of work.
-The character movement is very stiff when attacking which results in some clunky looking animations particularly with the basic attacks. There's little to no windup or leaning into the attacks which would contribute to the weighty feel a 2 handed weapon should have. Basic attacks with the Greatsword now look unnatural, they should be longer, wider swings. The character should bend their knees and take a wider stance when in combat and side strafe when moving sideways. I would like to see more footwork to compliment the rest of the animation, foot sliding or dragging, wide steps into big attacks.
-Character movement currently looks almost comical with the feet moving at a million miles an hour like a Flintstones character. Slow down the animation. An Orc should especially have longer wider steps, and so should other races from what I've seen.
-The sword is too small for an Orc character, should be proportionate to the character type.
-Attack speed is too fast for a 2 handed weapon. Slow it down.
-Fighters should also have some reliable hard CCs at their disposal like a single target knockdown and/or stun, only CC I've seen so far was the slow and the proc for tripping which is not enough. CCs should NOT be a % chance as part of an ability, they should have a set condition attached to them and be consistent/reliable in their usage.
-VFX is too bright and distracting for a melee fighting class. This resembles something you would typically see on a mage or healer. The yellow glow on the weapon and character for abilities really seems out of place on the fighter. I would prefer the Visuals for this class to be much more subtle like the auto attack's silver tint with toned down red vfx for other abilities like rupture, maime, and crippling blow.
Momentum- Makes sense for the Fighter class mechanic, no complaints there.
Blitz- I would get rid of the yellow glow on the character and have both hands on the weapon since it's 2 handed. I would also like to be able to use it without a target to close distance or escape.
Brutal Cleave and Overpower- animations look ok but remove the yellow vfx.
Maime- animation looks good and I like the projectile option, would like to see more abilities/spec options that work similarly. Again the vfx and blood from the base ability is excessive.
Cataclysm- I like how the new cataclysm looks compared to the previous version, its more fitting for a fighter but I don't understand why it's 1 handed when you're using a 2-hander. Would be better as a 2 handed giant overhead swing to empathize the power. The sharp rocks that appear on the ground after using it seem out of place with this ability and so is the yellow vfx.
Rupture- vfx for the bleed is over the top, tone it down.
Lethal blow- animation is choppy and not synced with the vfx and vfx is too bright. Also the power of this abilty is not emphasized enough being a finishing move, it looks like the others. I would like to see it be a leap attack like Axes ultimate from Dota or Darius in LoL.
Leap strike- you should remove the initial windup and smooth out the leaping animation to make it look more natural with a better arc. It also appears to speed up just before the landing but it should be the same speed throughout. VFX for this ability is also excessive on impact, tone it down.
Exert- Not really sure how I feel about exert, I think it may be too powerful for 1 ability. Could be broken up into 1 CC break/CC immunity ability+movespeed and 1 exert that spends your momentum to increase attack speed/damage amplify abilities (Off Global Cooldown).
Crippling Blow - Animation and vfx looks bad on this one. Again with the 1 handed attacks on a 2 hander, make it make sense. Would look better as a quick 2 handed slash to the legs with subtle red VFX.
Overall I like the direction being taken with the Fighter class, but more work needs to be done on character movement, VFX to provide more clarity and smoothing out the animations so that combat looks and feels fluid.
Feedback on the Fighter Class in Ashes of Creation:
I'd like to provide some feedback on the current state of the Fighter class. Overall, it's headed in the right direction, but there's still work to be done.
Firstly, I must commend the fluidity of the character's movements and spells. The spells feel satisfying to cast, but there's an issue with mana usage—or rather, the lack thereof. In comparison to similar games like League of Legends, where characters have diverse resource systems, the Fighter's mana feels a bit of a miss for a furious warrior. I suggest exploring different resource mechanics to add depth to gameplay. For instance, maintaining the momentum mechanic is a good start, but it lacks significant impact. To enhance this, consider introducing spells that both generate and consume momentum (you only showcased one which was more a movement ability.). This choice would allow players to strategize between burst damage or sustained DPS. Balancing momentum generating spells could be achieved through cooldowns or varying damage outputs.
Additionally, the implementation of stances lacks the impact I anticipated. While the concept is intriguing, it could benefit from added depth and flavor. Linking certain spells to specific stances, each with unique effects, could enhance gameplay. For example, performing a Blink Strike in one stance could trip enemies, while in another, it could boost momentum. Alternatively, automatic roars upon entering a stance, with each stance providing distinct bonuses or penalties, could add depth to strategic choices.
Many players appreciate the slow yet impactful attacks associated with two-handed weapon users. Perhaps tying the Fighter's combat style to their weapon choice—slower for two-handers and faster for dual-wielders—could further personalize gameplay experiences.
Regarding specific skills, the Execute ability left much to be desired. For an ability designed to deliver a decisive blow, it lacks the visual and auditory impact it deserves. Consider adding blood effects, enhancing sound effects, and introducing animations to elevate its visual appeal. Implementing a visual cue, such as a red screen tint when an opponent is within execute range during PvP encounters, could also improve clarity and immersion.
In conclusion, while there are areas for improvement, the game's overall quality is impressive. With continued dedication and effort from the development team, Ashes of Creation has the potential to excel. Keep up the excellent work, and I look forward to experiencing the world of Vera firsthand!
Excellent demonstration of the fighter archetype, congratulations to the combat development team, dred, keenan etc. You guys did very well.
The only improvement I would like would be in the basic attack, since the skills are excellent.
Another assessment, the fighter demonstration from a year ago on the basic attack, in my opinion they were better than the current modification of the fighter's basic attack
How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?
I thought the fighter reveal was good, it looks like a complete kit without any relative weaknesses. This isn't a bad thing unless other classes aren't also complete.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
Good mobility, lots of gap closers, with a little bit of range. I liked the idea of sticking onto a target and ramping up power as a gameplay style.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
Only concern are the animations. Already in a group of 4, the game looked a bit visually cluttered, with 20 people it will be a shit show. Tone down the animation effects.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I liked it.
Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share them!
Not yet, giving good feedback will require playing.
How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?
It's easily in the top 5 showcases so far!
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
I'm not sure if i will play the fighter but i really like the fluidity and the groundedness you achieved in the fighter archetype. It actually feels heavy, like the fighter packs a punch.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
I know the effects can be toned down to your specific liking, but the blood effect was a little too much imo. Not that i dont want to see blood and visual effects for a bleeding effect in the game but it was just over the top here.
I've been maining fighter/dps tanks for the last 20 years in games from tibia, wow, warhammer (specifically ORCs when available) and so on and I'd like to say overall I love the look and feel you've given to this piece.
My criticism falls on a minor aspect of character customization; the mohawk as shown.
(I've also been a punk rocker in LA, Oakland, Seattle, Berlin for the past really long time too).
So I'll just post a comparison and let you make any evaluation
As the current option i feel closely depicts:
Wattie Buchan of the Exploited in current form (No disrespect really intended)
vs. Paul Sorrels of the Virus many years ago
Really just a difference in hairline and volume/angle of volume.
Idk if there would be any future hair animation but if so I'd note that mohawks can be both highly rigid and solid or rather "floppy" and broken.
I thought this was an amazing showcase, I'm so happy we got to see more of the fighter. The main critique I have is that the blood vfx from abilities like rupture or maim seem excessive, at least for PvP. Also, though I'm obviously not a vfx expert, I feel like the vfx for Exert could look more impactful and imposing. The weapon skill tree looked amazing, but the class skill tree seemed somewhat confusing. The damage delay on monsters made the hits feel much less impactful, so I am confused on why this was added. Additionally, the nametags of the monsters and corpses could use some work. From what my understanding in, they were previously placeholders, but they're still awkwardly visible.
What I loved
Loved the Art and design of the Orc Race. Very menacing
Job well done on the sound effects for the orcs abilities.
Abilities certainly have come a long way since the last fighter showcase and the combat appeared to be more smooth.
The character also not seeming as floaty, while it navigated the terrain was a big help.
What I would have liked to have seen
Show the fighter use the original sword as they did.... kill mobs for the first half of the video with said 2 hander sword. Then loot... 2 -1 hander swords, which would show the different abilities that comes from having said swords....which opens the floor for steven to show how that changes the abilities, the talent tree a bit, etc. All from a simple weapon change.
Speaking of Talent Trees- While just a place holder, I hope it will be more refined and easier to understand what the player is looking at later on. Making it obvious of where the starting point is and the direction of progressions. Example- going left to right or starting at the top and working it's way down.
Abilities bar- Again would like to see more color variation. Green for heals. Gold for blocks, Red for finishing blows. etc. More of a UI related thing. But some archetypes currently have a very similar feel when looking at the ability bar without obvious indicator in what that ability helps with. Oh this is green it must help with healing, this is gold it must be something in regards to blocking, etc.
Job well done intrepid for this showcase. Was a breath of fresh air to see these changes and the progress made to the fighter archetype!
The grass, flowers and trees look nice, and the wind effects on them look good enough to be immersive instead of immersion breaking. Perhaps the grass can be tweaked a little more, but it's not important IMO.
The sky looks great.
The ambient sounds of the wind and the birds are great.
The ambient water sound is good, as are the sounds when splashing into the water.
The Ren'kai looks pretty good. I like the scales. But I need to see more options to really give feedback on that race.
The running and jumping animations are good. You keep making small improvements, so good job there!
The cape movement has been greatly improved since last time, but it's still slightly off sometimes. Not by much, so if you can keep tweaking it, I think it's going to end up perfect. It's already way ahead of anything else I have seen.
I really like how the shroomiebois and the goblins move around instead of just standing still. It adds positively to it all.
The radiation fog by the riverbank is much improved from previous streams, where it even appeared up in trees too. But it's still too rigid with borders that are too defined and with sudden shifts instead of a more gradual change and flow. It's not horrible, but it's enough to look unnatural to a point where I notice it negatively.
The minimap looks great! I like the detail where it is showing red borders if the player is in combat.
The resurrection effect looks amazing!
Attack speed increasing ability animation speed is a nice touch.
As I have said before, I love the direction of the weapon tree system. Please keep fleshing that out.
The level up animation needs some work I think. Bigger, easier to notice.
Destructible assets is a great idea! Love to see it.
Quests really need some AI voice over IMO.
Mob animation in combat seemed a little off sometimes, with them sliding around. I am sure that'll get better though.
I like how the goblin shamans actively try to get some distance away in combat before throwing their poison.
The blizzard spell effect has greatly improved. Good job.
Everybody in the group having to loot the quest items one by one, effectively meaning a full group is having to kill the same named mob 8 times, is not a great way to do this I think. Some sort of quest progress sharing is needed here. If it's just trash mob drops, not sharing progress can be ok, but not for the specific quest drops from named mobs.
We really, really need area loot of mobs in this game I think. Having to loot one by one gets old really fast.
About the goblin area in terms of grinding XP, this seems pretty decent. I am not sure it's big enough to support more than two groups from what I saw, so there is that, but in terms of layout and mob respawn and density it looks good. Balance-wise it looks a little easy if 4 people can handle it as well as you did, if it's supposed to be for full parties. But that can be fixed of course.
Combat Momentum is a good addition to the Fighter class. It makes a lot of sense. I would like to see a few more momentum spending skills though.
Blitz looks great. No notes really. I am completely ok with it requiring a target, as long as said target can actively dodge it if they see it coming.
Brutal Cleave and Overpower sharing a cooldown forcing the fighter to chose between single target with shaken effect and area attack is ok I guess. Is it just to limit the number of abilities off CD? So more weapon combos are weaved in? Either way, I think the animations look good for both, but I still think the skill effects are a little overtuned and flashy. If we can turn it down ourselves, then that's fine.
Maim is a cool skill. Again, I would like to be able to turn the effects down. The blood effect on hit especially is a little big. I really like how the spec option changes the skill pretty drastically. I hope you lean into that more. I guess you are already with the augment system. Double damage on tripped enemies is a good idea.
Battle Cry - awesome roar, good effect dynamics, no notes
Whirlwind - Again with the effect, but the animation looks good IMO. I like the cancelling part, but I am not sure how I feel about being immune to hard disabling effects. It's a balance issue I guess.
Cataclysm - Definitely better than the hammer with the new effect. Good skill, nice to see more leaning into the shaken/riled/tripped synergy thing.
Rupture - absolutely love this skill. The wound blood effect is over the top, but the skill itself is so good. Healing debuff and increased damage from physical attacks. Healers hate this one trick! I like the synergy with brutal cleave and overpower.
Crippling Blow - Snare, good, must have, no notes.
Lethal Blow - Looks good, up to 4x damage seems high but maybe it's fine? Again, a balance issue. With the spec option (health/mana regain) it's a pretty insane skill.
Blood Fusion - Seems like a super strong skill for those tough fights. I like it. The effect is very cool, slightly over the top perhaps, but not by much. Insta-cast while using other skills makes it even cooler.
Lunging Assault - Seems good, no notes.
Leap Strike - crazy skill, love it. I think the abrupt stop mid-air and straight down vertical descent seems a little odd though. If you can soften that angle a little, I think it would look better.
The Forms - I like the different forms and their effects. I don't like how you can switch between them without losing momentum. That seems wrong to me. A percentage cost or something like that should happen.
Exert - God mode seems right. Crazy skill. Let's see it after some balance passes to Fighter and other classes. The effect looks good.
Comments
I love how everything looks, i love the weight the attacks have. That was just my one personal opinion.
Also, I really hope you plan on making that Forlorn Hero's Memorial a lot more fancy.
Big no.
I have two concerns involving what we've seen in this livestream:
1. The amount of visual clarity in regards to multiple spell effects.
This has been talked about in many previous livestreams, and is even talked about in this livestream. This issue has become even more prevalent when more characters come on screen, and when it's considered that player vs. player battles are intended to be in the hundreds, there is no way that spell effects can remain the way that are shown here. I think the change that was made with simplifying the basic weapon attack's arc would be a great thing to implement to all the abilities. Flashy abilities are cool, but with the amount of players planned to be on screen they can't exist. This is in regards mainly to lighting effects and colors. Things like the fighter doing a flip don't necessarily fit what I'm talking about.
2. The pace of combat.
Along with flashy animations, it seems as though the increase in complex abilities has increased the player's agency and their ability to squash enemies. Is this the goal? I'm not an expert on combat in videogames, but in regards to creating epic, drawn-out battles, would you need combat to be slower? While fighting those goblins, it looked like you were aoe farming them in the same vein as some modern version of World of Warcraft or Final Fantasy XIV. You do mention that the fighter is exceptionally good at fighting groups of enemies, but should that aptitude mean killing said groups as quickly as we see? I am a large fan of the combat encounters of vanilla World of Warcraft, and in that game, the difficulty of enemies is often simply the time it takes to kill them, because of the relatively low damage dished out by players. Additionally, the speed at which the enemies in the preview were killed is concerning when considering that Steven's planned group size is 8 players. With the complex toolkits present in an 8 player party, how will farming combat encounters feel meaningful?
I really liked most of the spells shown, I feel whirlwind needs to be longer, also Exert needs to be a bigger aura and if cd is long enough I dont see the spell too overpower, dmg will be done in balance, other than that I feel pretty good about it without seeing all weapon combos or someother spells. I feel its lacking some raid utility spells (like the one you mention from the rogue archetype...finding secret doors)
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
I want to play mage, and still waiting on Rogue and also Summoner to see if I am interested so What excites me is trying arena comps with fighter archetypes to see if it can work out.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
Just more Utility spells, this is because I like group interaction between classes on pve and pvp.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Diablo like spells from barbarian are pretty cool, and would like to see something similar.
What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
We havent seen it all yet but looks to be pretty good so far.
I wanted to take the oportunity to ask mage devs to make its kit more fluid like Ranger and Fighter are doing right now.
Mage needs way more elements.... I know we havent seen some spells yet but for example ball lightning feels too slow compared to other spells and I feel mage gameplay should really feel fast pace and clever which some of its kit is but it doesnt connect atm.
Would like to see these pre-alpha 2 archetypes in a bit of a Bounty system/PVP showcase so that we can get a feel for how these classes match up as well as show how corruption works out in game and to demonstrate the diminishing returns of stacking too much of it.
Maybe different races too, just to mix it up and provide a glimpse of what’s to come.
How about a change of scenery. The Riverlands are OK, but it seems we’ve been there for a really long time.
Finally, why not a demonstration on how to dial down or dial up the effects settings and what that looks like. Have you considered a slider for realistic to fantastical effect styles?
1. The skill interaction of Trip + Maim. The setup -> payoff, and combining of abilities makes me happy, even better if they can be participated in by many players. It promotes communication and raises personal and group skill ceiling. More of that, please.
2. Rupture is fun and has tactical considerations. It's better than "me smash you, big numbers".
The neutral:
1. The individual weapon skill progression of "learning by doing" gets a huge thumbs up from me. It seems like a nice change from the usual generic points at level-up. However, the pace of progression will need a lot of testing. Players should be able to test few different weapon setups, before they decide to settle in one that fits their style. A jack-of-all-trades approach in regards with skills that each take time to practice rarely works in a highly optimized gameplay.
The bad:
1. The quest progress with toy soldier worried me. If there is a quest to collect unique items that drop from a specific enemy, a party member should be able to pick up one of each item, or they should be tradeable at least. If player A picks up multiples of the same quest item (that he needs only 1 of) and effectively hampers progression for player B (who has one), and they can't trade quest items, it's not a good sign. Stealing quest items will generate unnecessary, artificial friction in the party, whether it is done accidentally or on purpose. The latter could be considered harassment. It's also completely avoidable, if unique quest items are truly unique (a.k.a. you physically cannot pick up than you need for the completion), or if they are tradeable to other party members on the same quest.
Where did these skills go? Active Blocking. Dodging. We need those back. Not a 2004 tab combat.
Remove RNG blocking. Remove RNG CC. Luck is not a skill, a random CC can ruin your combo, since each CC has a different duration.
Make Blitz usable without a target so that it's used for mobility.
With Lunging Assault AND Exert giving the fighter CC immunity, Blitz being a targeted skill is it too powerful and unfun to play against for ranged classes. I know this from experience because I've played Archer and Mage in Archeage which had a similar fighter class. And the fact that this game doesn't have iframe dodging doesn't help.
No complaints about the general direction of the fighter. Distinguishes itself pretty well from the Tank, and looks like it would be fun to play.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
I'm not normally a Fighter player myself, as I prefer rogue/tank/support classes. But the general kit and rotations seemed to be going in a good direction.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
More concerns than anything. In terms of the fighter itself, there seemed to be too much mobility for a fighter/bruiser class in my opinion. On top of having a reset when killing a target with lethal blow has me a bit worried when you also stack in Leap Strike as a skill. If memory serves me right the ranger had Disengage and Airstrike? I'm not sure what the cooldowns will be on the skills between these two classes, but I don't believe it would be healthy for the fighter class to have more gap closing ability then the ranger would have in creating distance. Which worries me more in terms of what the Rogue will have....as I believe the Ranger and Rogue should have the most mobility. If the Fighter can just trade movement skills and still be in melee distance with a Ranger, I believe that to be a fundamental problem. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe a ranger should be able to kite to their hearts content, but I would of pictured a Rogue being able to close the gap, as they are innately squishy glass cannons who need to quickly dispatch a target before they die, compared to a hulking behemoth who is quick, can close gaps, and deal large damage.
I like the idea of stances, but giving movement speed is not something I approve of. Better for the fighter to have cripple like hamstringing skills compared to overall movement speed. I believe movement speed should only be given to a rogue to allow them to gap close and hunt down a target. Giving that to a heavy armor DPS melee class seems imbalanced. Lineage 2 did this very well. Daggers had the most movement speed, coupled along with skills to increase their movement speed, but would be very squishy and prone to die from range (archers/mages). This worked VERY well in the rock paper scissors format of group combat. If a dagger class got the drop on someone, they could kill quickly, but if they didn't have the element of surprise and were forced to chase a target at range, or being the surprised target themselves, they could be killed before reaching the attacker.
Giving the fighter a speed boost in the Celerity Stance seems a bit too op for the fighter, I understand they need momentum for the increase in speed in said stance, but once again I think it fundamentally is the wrong way to go. Better to give a few of their skills a hamstring like effect to slow a target they have caught, rather than giving them too much mobility, a hamstring, and movement speed boosts to forever chase a target.
Also the rupture skill is just too much blood...lol. As Steven stated in the dev update, it was too over the top. I understand the need to visually see a debuff on the target, but definitely overboard with the visuals of that skill. In general the visual effects and sprites in AoC are a bit excessive, I really do hope we have the option of toning them down a bit, and not just straight up eliminating them, a nice balance would be appreciated.
The second and extremely concerning topic goes back to attack animations. I brought this up during the first combat revamp dev update where the fighter was shown off with great sword and dual melee weapons. The attack animations have a weird stutter lag every time they hit the target. Which is VERY jarring to look at. I'm not sure if this is an animation problem, or an underlying system issue...But it is present in this showcase as well and it's quite upsetting to see. Quite a lot of individuals were bringing it up in the Twitch chat, and hopefully were not flooded out by the positive praise that fanboys throw out every stream. I made some gifs for examples.
Basic attack below...As you can see, there is a frozen body which results in broken looking kinematics upon hitting said target. The body freezes for a few frames and jerks into a forward frame position, which is very unpleasant.
It even happens in skills, which is surprising considering how fast the character is spinning. As a result it also desyncs the sword air slash animations, which makes everything look even worse.
Only when it's on hit, not when it misses.
Some skills don't exhibit this problem.
A couple more scenarios to show how jarring it is....
I really hope all the praise being thrown in twitch chat doesn't muffle out the actual problem this is. As I tend to always see a lot of fanboy'ism in twitch chat saying combat looks smooth, when it really doesn't. Hoping that bringing this up again is enough to get it the attention it deserves, cause it makes the game look laggy, when it's actually a problem under the hood.
If this was a design decision to convey impact, I believe this is the wrong direction to go. Being an individual who has played many MMO's, as well as L2 back at launch, just the sparks of impact and target wincing is enough coupled with the audio queues. Hoping this can be remedied, cause it's not a minor issue.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Nothing that comes to mind worth mentioning. Visually though I did get some L2 Destroyer vibes, which made me smile. Also like the approach that was taken with the orc visuals, most my alley compared to the Asian orc themed concept art we got previously.
What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Overall good. Besides what I brought up about the stance and movement speed aspect which I disagree with, the only thing I would recommend is reducing the AOE radius of Cataclysm. It seems too large, more of a mage AOE skill radius compared to a fighter skill. I noticed that the dash skill shown in the previous Melee weapon attack update seems to be gone...honestly, I'm glad about this. It would be too much for this kit. But I do believe that skill would be a very nice addition to the rogue as it fits it more thematically.
Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share them!
I'll have to re-watch the dev update and add my 2 cents, A lot to absorb. Overall digging it. Sword attack speed for the GS looks good this time around. I really do hope we could get specific racial attack animations, as it was a beautifully factor in Lineage 2. It was very iconic and memorable. These animations fit the orc and his large hulky frame well....But I don't think it would look as good on a more slender and smaller framed race.
Also he attack stutter animation I mentioned above is problematic, but that seems to be a game wide issue, not fighter specific. VFX look good, but a little on the heavy side of visuals, mass pvp is going to be very chaotic, so hoping we get some LOD like slider to adjust how much visuals we want. will edit this and add more when I review the video again. But I must say I do love the aesthetic of the current orc...as well as the animations remind me a bit of L2.
Overall, Keep up the great work! Looking good so far.
Overall positive. visually and audibly its very attractive. The presentation still needs a lot of work because aside from showing off each skill and a brief explanation, we are in dire need of context within the actual flow of combat of the class at whatever level you are showcasing. In order for us to give the best feedback possible, we should see the intended combat gameplay in a party and maybe solo to see how it actually flows together; what does the rotation look and feel like? is the level we see on the xp bar the intended representation of the gameplay we are seeing for that level? If the only gameplay we ever see with these class previews are just steven smashing the abilities in any random order, how can we really see the vision or direction you are taking said class? I've honestly thought there wouldn't really be a WoW-esq rotation based on the combat gameplay i've seen thus far in these class videos because it never appears to be played how its intended. I don't mean to take away from the positive direction combat is going and i understand there is still a lot of work to do but please just present the class with more informed combat gameplay so we can hear you talk about your vision for the class and we can see it in action to judge if its lining up!
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
The potential depth of the combat gameplay and having to spend lots of time mastering the rotation with all the levers we get within the weapon & skill trees.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
I think the use of mana for a fighter is a bit immersion breaking/uninspired. I understand they have momentum already and it may be weird to have another bar that is called something else to replace mana but i think something should be done here. Mana for an augment class that is like a caster (spellsword?) could make sense, but a 'weapon master' using mana doesn't seem right.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I have the most experience with WoW so i'm going to reference the warrior class. I think there are lots of ideas to borrow/be inspired by from the retail warrior class - it has been iterated on for 20 years so they probably have some useful insight.
What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
They seem standard to the classic fighter/warrior class fantasy (which isn't a bad thing). I hope there are lots of more unique, interesting abilities that we will get as we level up.
Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share them!
The animations and the visual effects were quite good. Someone already mentioned that this fighters sword didn't leave marks on the ground like the first fighter preview. Was this because that particular sword was too short? For the final hit of a combo i don't feel like its satisfying enough; needs more OOMPH. Still needs some more impact (maybe a slighty bigger or longer contact hitch that you currently have). its getting closer to BDO impact and that should be the ideal in that aspect.
While the VFX are really well done, i am still seeing the abilities in general (for all shown classes) are a bit too flashy. The visual clutter on the mobs is too much still; i can only imagine how bad it would be in a raid/siege. Some abilities can be flashy but most need to be tuned down, especially when they are hitting for 40 dmg at level 15. I hope there is some visual progression for skills we get early on so that we can see how powerful they become as we level up. Nothing extreme just noticeable. I think for cataclysm the spikes last too long or are maybe too big and i can it becoming an issue in bigger groups (blizzard on the mage too).
I feel very excited about Fighter and I am sure that I will test this Archetype first in Alpha-2! Fighter feels strong and brutal! 🤘
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
It always feels good to play with strong melee class in MMORPG. Fighters should strike fear into enemies on the battlefield!
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
Everything what I saw on the livestream looked very cool and promising! I can't wait to see other weapon types in action! I'm interested about dual wield axes and 2-handed maces and hammers.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Back in the days when I played Guild Wars 2, Warrior was a disappointment in my opinion. They looked cool but in the battle they (and Rangers) were beaten badly by other classes. Warrior was only fun to play in PvE.
What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I liked the abilities and mechanics very much and loved how mobile the Fighter Archetype is! I loved very much the rework of the Cataclysm skill BUT there is one thing I would like to change in it. PLEASE CHANGE THE YELLOW LIGHTS INTO ORANGE OR RED and then the skill looks perfect!
Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share them!
I think the great sword animations looked good enough. I'm not into great swords but I can't wait to see other weapon types like I mentioned before in this comment. Skill trees looked little bit messy in my opinion but I think it will change in process.
Overall this stream was very exciting. It was fun to finally see Ren' Kai orc in the game and I'm hoping to see Dünir dwarves soon on the future livestreams before Alpha-2.
I do have some nitpicks which are all visual related, and considering the massive amount of improvement we've seen in that front the past few months, I'm not concerned by any means.
I'll mention them nevertheless:
I think the greatsword is a bit too quick for its type. Smaller swords would feel excellent with these speeds. I'd like to see slower weapon swings but more kick, backhand, disarm type things that can be weaved in between the swings. Greatswords and 2H Hammers should FEEL like you're swinging a huge hunk of metal around. Don't get me wrong a lot of abilities do already feel that way, but the faster swings just feel out of place to me in comparison.
The whirlwind ending animation (the hit upowards) doesn't flow very nicely. Ending one armed could look better for example.
Edit* I think its the basic attack/weapon combo that I mean by this
Things I loved:
- The weight behind the attacks and animations looked very nice. Maim is probably one of my favourite abilities I've seen you guys ever showcase. The sound, the colour, the animation of the front twist into the heavy weighted slam, the added projectile progression... Just perfect.
- The sounds effects of the abilities especially the buffs and debuffs were great.
- Blitz looks very fluid and seamless, it doesn't look clunky or like there are strange animations or changes in momentum and I think it's a great benchmark for how other movement abilities should feel. I also love you can use it slightly vertically too.
- Love the 3 different stances/forms that give options and decision making to your combat playstyle depending on the engagement. Fighting a mobile enemy? Use the Celerity form to keep up with them. Need to burst someone down and get your attacks out quicker? Use the ferocity form. Getting locked down and need more survivability? Switch to Fluidity form. I love that sort of dynamic in combat and with how much horizontal progression you guys are putting in the game and options to builds you're adding, if balanced correctly it should make a lot of different playstyles and pathways viable depending on the encounter that's being faced rather than there being one meta build that outshines the rest in every situation.
- Having control of your character and being able to cancel channeled abilities like the whirlwind mid way through always feel nice. I like that you're leaning a lot more into giving players choice and control in their movements instead of being locked into things, makes combat feel a lot better.
Suggestions:
- Some of the finishing hits could be a bit more noticeable and flashy, such as the final hit of the whirlwind that you can unlock in your progressions and the final hit of your basic attack chain.
- The execute ability could feel a bit more impactful and noticeable.
- Regarding the increased "% Disable Resistance Chance" on the form of fluidity which is RNG based, perhaps it would be better to make the buff give you "% Reduced Resistance Duration", either instead of what it currently is or as an addition to give some more consistency to that form. So basically instead of just having a % chance of resisting a crowd control entirely, it gives you a buff that reduces the effectiveness/duration of crowd controls, which would make it less luck based and feel more consistent by breaking out of being CC'd faster.
- The blood effect to show bleeding was great but maybe a little excessive hahah, the guy become a blood fountain so maybe needs a little toning down.
- The leap animation could be a bit more smooth and angled instead of feeling too vertical on the landing. It currently looks like you jump then your momentum stops mid air and you come down vertically instead of landing at an angle from where you jumped from. Bit nit picky and maybe that was intentional but just looks a little strange at the end of the animation.
Overall I really liked it. Looking forward to seeing how the big lighting changes will affect the visuals of the game too
I was honestly not expecting the airdasher style gameplay from an MMO, but you know what, I think I could maybe go for that. I'm not sure that's a good thing for Ashes, though. If anyone (or even most people) can choose to be anywhere, then it doesn't matter where anyone is.
I'm worried about Tanks. If a Fighter can just fly over my tank and crash down on my Cleric and Mage, then "If you want to hurt them, you have to go through me!" isn't really a thing anymore. You're stuck with things like transferring incoming damage from an Ally to the Tank. If that's "Allies near me", now your Cleric Mage and Bard are going to be standing clustered near you... right in the AoE range of "Fighter SMASH!", and innumerable Mage abilities. If you go with "tag an Ally to defend", my Fighter's just gonna "SMASH!" the Mage, and Blitz at the Cleric as soon as you link your shield on the Mage. If you don't, they'll just kill them instead. Maybe Tank's "yank" will be enough... if the enemy doesn't have two Fighters for some reason. When everyone can move everywhere, "formations" stop mattering, and you can no longer use them to solve (or create) problems.
I'm worried about Bard. I'm supposed to get formation related buffs, right? If formations don't matter, my team will never have a good incentive to be in one that I can empower. Doing so can only provide our opponents with ways to harm us. Whether that's being able to predict where my allies are going to be standing, or even just losing the damage race through "our Fighter needs to get off the enemy backline to be in position". It'll almost never be worth it.
It's not just that, though. How on earth am I going to be able to even buff my teammates, when one of my Fighter's best actions is to rocket-boost half-way across the map? She's never going to be in range of my Songs. Am I just not going to have range limits? Are you gonna solve this by making that not matter? You kindof have to if you're living in a world where formations don't work. But then I lose other things.
In FFXI, Bard songs have a specific range limit. It's quite far, honestly. I can hit all of my party without trouble unless we've really spread out for some reason. But I also can move and reposition myself further back, off to the side, or even behind the enemy (in PvE at least), so that that range limit now cuts my party in half. It lets me put the right buffs on the right allies, since in that game, Bard has a limit. The thing is, if you solve this the other way. If Bard doesn't have limits, "BuffBot" is all but guaranteed. In what way is it NOT optimal to just keep buffing my party? Even Hunting Horn needs its limits, and it's one of the best designs against this.
Still, I can see some gameplay where I get in, and get out. Where I can manage to be in somewhat dangerous positions so I can still get off my buffs, without being utterly defenseless to the inevitable. Have some Risk and some Reward. But only if Bard can fly too. Is that good for the game? I'm not sure. But it's required by this design space. All I know is I'm definitely BRD/ROG now, not BRD/RNG.
I couldn't agree more. This is the first thing I noticed when Steven was attacking. A greatsword is supposed to be heavy and therefore not supposed to stop the motion in a matter of a millisecond. In the opposite, the motion should be constant and fluid and in this showcase, it wasn't.
- I think the RenKai model could be about 20-25% larger. I think they currently look only slightly larger than a human, and I wish they were a little bit heftier.
Here's a mockup I did of just scaling them up roughly 20% (right side):
- AoC sometimes gets a lot of flak for the janky cape physics and weird jog/run animations with weapons, but this time the cape was very cooperative (most of the time). I just saw UE5.4 features improving cloth physics, animation libraries for run/walk, etc. So excited to see what the team can do with them as they continue to polish the animations, etc.
- I think the execution skill could use more fanfare to make it FEEL more impactful and satisfying. Axe from DotA 2 has an execute ultimate that spills a ton of blood on the floor on a successful execute and also resets the cooldown on a successful execute (but has a smaller window to execute). The showcase was very functional but wasn't very exciting.
- IMPACT! I am going to keep shouting about impact, and lack of impact on skill and attack hits. In the showcase hitting the player had some nice subtle head-bobbing stagger animations, which is a nice start- but I think the mobs still lack impact and ragdoll/physics like the stone golems showcased 2 years ago. I think it's okay for the mobs or smaller trash mobs to have more exaggerated staggers. This gives the player a sense that they are powerful- and that's a good thing! You could even keep less staggering for larger, heftier bosses/named mobs, etc. That could help vary up the "combat feel"
-finally, I think many people feel like Steven should give a more experienced pilot a shot at 'playing' with the toolkit. Steven does a great job explaining the toolkit and mechanics/systems during the skill showcase, but during the gameplay (goblin area) - there were many missed opportunities for showing off high-level interactions like the "exert" (god-mode) and the execution skill. I think this way Steven gets to show off his shiny new toys, but also gives a chance for the company to highlight a more "experienced" or advanced user of the class and give them a shot at showing off what the ceiling of the class (at that level) may look like.
This was one of my favorite monthly updates ever (and I don't even main a warrior). I think you guys did a great job showcasing the skills AND showing gameplay. I enjoy this long-format presentation. I think the spell effects look like they had a great pass and looked more presentable in a party/group fight. I think the animations for the skills look great and better than before- even if the basic skill attacks could use a tiny bit more polishing (I expect they will). The plate armor this showcase was the best looking and most presentable set you have done thus far. Just very complete. Also, let's give giant props to the AUDIO/Sound designers for the skills and mobs in this showcase. Wow. They are top-notch. Very nice!
Thanks for all the hard work! I think this was an amazing showcase for the team and gives me a lot of faith in the progress leading up to A2! Excited for more!
-The character movement is very stiff when attacking which results in some clunky looking animations particularly with the basic attacks. There's little to no windup or leaning into the attacks which would contribute to the weighty feel a 2 handed weapon should have. Basic attacks with the Greatsword now look unnatural, they should be longer, wider swings. The character should bend their knees and take a wider stance when in combat and side strafe when moving sideways. I would like to see more footwork to compliment the rest of the animation, foot sliding or dragging, wide steps into big attacks.
-Character movement currently looks almost comical with the feet moving at a million miles an hour like a Flintstones character. Slow down the animation. An Orc should especially have longer wider steps, and so should other races from what I've seen.
-The sword is too small for an Orc character, should be proportionate to the character type.
-Attack speed is too fast for a 2 handed weapon. Slow it down.
-Fighters should also have some reliable hard CCs at their disposal like a single target knockdown and/or stun, only CC I've seen so far was the slow and the proc for tripping which is not enough. CCs should NOT be a % chance as part of an ability, they should have a set condition attached to them and be consistent/reliable in their usage.
-VFX is too bright and distracting for a melee fighting class. This resembles something you would typically see on a mage or healer. The yellow glow on the weapon and character for abilities really seems out of place on the fighter. I would prefer the Visuals for this class to be much more subtle like the auto attack's silver tint with toned down red vfx for other abilities like rupture, maime, and crippling blow.
Momentum- Makes sense for the Fighter class mechanic, no complaints there.
Blitz- I would get rid of the yellow glow on the character and have both hands on the weapon since it's 2 handed. I would also like to be able to use it without a target to close distance or escape.
Brutal Cleave and Overpower- animations look ok but remove the yellow vfx.
Maime- animation looks good and I like the projectile option, would like to see more abilities/spec options that work similarly. Again the vfx and blood from the base ability is excessive.
Cataclysm- I like how the new cataclysm looks compared to the previous version, its more fitting for a fighter but I don't understand why it's 1 handed when you're using a 2-hander. Would be better as a 2 handed giant overhead swing to empathize the power. The sharp rocks that appear on the ground after using it seem out of place with this ability and so is the yellow vfx.
Rupture- vfx for the bleed is over the top, tone it down.
Lethal blow- animation is choppy and not synced with the vfx and vfx is too bright. Also the power of this abilty is not emphasized enough being a finishing move, it looks like the others. I would like to see it be a leap attack like Axes ultimate from Dota or Darius in LoL.
Leap strike- you should remove the initial windup and smooth out the leaping animation to make it look more natural with a better arc. It also appears to speed up just before the landing but it should be the same speed throughout. VFX for this ability is also excessive on impact, tone it down.
Exert- Not really sure how I feel about exert, I think it may be too powerful for 1 ability. Could be broken up into 1 CC break/CC immunity ability+movespeed and 1 exert that spends your momentum to increase attack speed/damage amplify abilities (Off Global Cooldown).
Crippling Blow - Animation and vfx looks bad on this one. Again with the 1 handed attacks on a 2 hander, make it make sense. Would look better as a quick 2 handed slash to the legs with subtle red VFX.
Overall I like the direction being taken with the Fighter class, but more work needs to be done on character movement, VFX to provide more clarity and smoothing out the animations so that combat looks and feels fluid.
I'd like to provide some feedback on the current state of the Fighter class. Overall, it's headed in the right direction, but there's still work to be done.
Firstly, I must commend the fluidity of the character's movements and spells. The spells feel satisfying to cast, but there's an issue with mana usage—or rather, the lack thereof. In comparison to similar games like League of Legends, where characters have diverse resource systems, the Fighter's mana feels a bit of a miss for a furious warrior. I suggest exploring different resource mechanics to add depth to gameplay. For instance, maintaining the momentum mechanic is a good start, but it lacks significant impact. To enhance this, consider introducing spells that both generate and consume momentum (you only showcased one which was more a movement ability.). This choice would allow players to strategize between burst damage or sustained DPS. Balancing momentum generating spells could be achieved through cooldowns or varying damage outputs.
Additionally, the implementation of stances lacks the impact I anticipated. While the concept is intriguing, it could benefit from added depth and flavor. Linking certain spells to specific stances, each with unique effects, could enhance gameplay. For example, performing a Blink Strike in one stance could trip enemies, while in another, it could boost momentum. Alternatively, automatic roars upon entering a stance, with each stance providing distinct bonuses or penalties, could add depth to strategic choices.
Many players appreciate the slow yet impactful attacks associated with two-handed weapon users. Perhaps tying the Fighter's combat style to their weapon choice—slower for two-handers and faster for dual-wielders—could further personalize gameplay experiences.
Regarding specific skills, the Execute ability left much to be desired. For an ability designed to deliver a decisive blow, it lacks the visual and auditory impact it deserves. Consider adding blood effects, enhancing sound effects, and introducing animations to elevate its visual appeal. Implementing a visual cue, such as a red screen tint when an opponent is within execute range during PvP encounters, could also improve clarity and immersion.
In conclusion, while there are areas for improvement, the game's overall quality is impressive. With continued dedication and effort from the development team, Ashes of Creation has the potential to excel. Keep up the excellent work, and I look forward to experiencing the world of Vera firsthand!
The only improvement I would like would be in the basic attack, since the skills are excellent.
Another assessment, the fighter demonstration from a year ago on the basic attack, in my opinion they were better than the current modification of the fighter's basic attack
I thought the fighter reveal was good, it looks like a complete kit without any relative weaknesses. This isn't a bad thing unless other classes aren't also complete.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
Good mobility, lots of gap closers, with a little bit of range. I liked the idea of sticking onto a target and ramping up power as a gameplay style.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
Only concern are the animations. Already in a group of 4, the game looked a bit visually cluttered, with 20 people it will be a shit show. Tone down the animation effects.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I liked it.
Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share them!
Not yet, giving good feedback will require playing.
It's easily in the top 5 showcases so far!
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
I'm not sure if i will play the fighter but i really like the fluidity and the groundedness you achieved in the fighter archetype. It actually feels heavy, like the fighter packs a punch.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
I know the effects can be toned down to your specific liking, but the blood effect was a little too much imo. Not that i dont want to see blood and visual effects for a bleeding effect in the game but it was just over the top here.
My criticism falls on a minor aspect of character customization; the mohawk as shown.
(I've also been a punk rocker in LA, Oakland, Seattle, Berlin for the past really long time too).
So I'll just post a comparison and let you make any evaluation
As the current option i feel closely depicts:
Wattie Buchan of the Exploited in current form (No disrespect really intended)
vs. Paul Sorrels of the Virus many years ago
Really just a difference in hairline and volume/angle of volume.
Idk if there would be any future hair animation but if so I'd note that mohawks can be both highly rigid and solid or rather "floppy" and broken.
Thanks for your work so far and Oi oi!!
Loved the Art and design of the Orc Race. Very menacing
Job well done on the sound effects for the orcs abilities.
Abilities certainly have come a long way since the last fighter showcase and the combat appeared to be more smooth.
The character also not seeming as floaty, while it navigated the terrain was a big help.
What I would have liked to have seen
Show the fighter use the original sword as they did.... kill mobs for the first half of the video with said 2 hander sword. Then loot... 2 -1 hander swords, which would show the different abilities that comes from having said swords....which opens the floor for steven to show how that changes the abilities, the talent tree a bit, etc. All from a simple weapon change.
Speaking of Talent Trees- While just a place holder, I hope it will be more refined and easier to understand what the player is looking at later on. Making it obvious of where the starting point is and the direction of progressions. Example- going left to right or starting at the top and working it's way down.
Abilities bar- Again would like to see more color variation. Green for heals. Gold for blocks, Red for finishing blows. etc. More of a UI related thing. But some archetypes currently have a very similar feel when looking at the ability bar without obvious indicator in what that ability helps with. Oh this is green it must help with healing, this is gold it must be something in regards to blocking, etc.
Job well done intrepid for this showcase. Was a breath of fresh air to see these changes and the progress made to the fighter archetype!
In no particular order:
About the goblin area in terms of grinding XP, this seems pretty decent. I am not sure it's big enough to support more than two groups from what I saw, so there is that, but in terms of layout and mob respawn and density it looks good. Balance-wise it looks a little easy if 4 people can handle it as well as you did, if it's supposed to be for full parties. But that can be fixed of course.