It would be a green death, if the victim doesn't strike the player attacker back. So it directly influences the loot you'd get from the victim.
Green death you drop less than a red death though. So I am not sure what you mean here. If I had 100% life and no mobs attacking me and he killed me without me attacking back he would receive the same loot as if a mob got the last hit. Only by attacking back do I change that modifier, and in that case if I attack back and lose I drop even more than.
Sorry if I am just misunderstanding this but I don't understand how it would be worse to die by a mob than a player?
The part of the comment you replied to says "player battles a mob and another player attacks him". That's the context of this discussion.
You might not be dying to the mob w/o other players attacking, but you either have to stop farming mobs or just die, if a player does attack you.
Both the death or the preventing of your content are seen as bad by majority of people. And visible hp makes that bad thing happen more frequently, because it's now easier to execute.
And visible hp makes that bad thing happen more frequently, because it's now easier to execute.
Yes, this is the only issue I see with it and based on what Steven has said with this game being a big Risk vs Reward, open world pvp, penalties for killing non pvp players and such. I think its just going to be a core part of the game. I have always played on PVP servers in mmos and sorry but its just part of the game to be killed while questing. Do I hate when it happens to me, yes, that's why I then join the guild chat, get some buddies to come, and make that guys next hour a respawn counter simulator.
Knowing a target players health can lead to gameplay that's not fun for the defender. If a player battles mobs and an attacker notices his low HP he could lower it to the point where the mobs can deal the final blow and the attacker can claim the dropped items and the area.
This is a non issue in most games I have played. If a player interacts with another player in any way, it counts as a player vs player death, even if the mob deals the final blow. It would not affect the drops you receive. Yea its annoying to be attacked while questing and some guy waiting for you to be low health before he attacks but them are usually bad players. Than you just come back and kill them quick.
Well, the player is usually bad, or they are a rogue. Still haven't met a rogue I like in any game, usually all toxic people. Specifically rolled warrior in WoW long time ago just so I could kill rogues easily, Overpower was one hell of a drug.
The other mmos you played were a themepark trail to the end game, with gearing from safe instanced raid treadmills.
The other mmos you played were a themepark trail to the end game, with gearing from safe instanced raid treadmills.
Not true. One of the mmos I have played was called Knight Online. If a player kills you they get half of all your acquired gold and pvp currency or a minimum amount stipulated. If you don't have that minimum amount you lost 10% of your exp. It would takes weeks to grind a single level so this was a huge loss. You could even de-level and lose skills if you died enough. It was a brutal game. Needed gold for health and mana potions as well, 2-3 skill casts would deplete your mana completely so you needed at least 200-300 mana pots to even pvp in the first place.
Also I pretty much only pvp in games unless it's necessary to pve to either a: level up faster, b: get very important gear upgrades, c: skill unlock quests.
Not showing your enemies HP was sometimes even the core of the whole flagging system
Yeah, but showing it means players can make more informed decisions - and since a game is nothing more than a scenario in which players make decisions and then see the results of them, enabling players to make more informed decisions can only ever be a good thing.
Someone from Intrepid said that non-registered players will be prevented from participating by not being able to use respawn points near the node. That implies they have shifted to open world to me. But sometimes things get said that are just ideas and aren't final.
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Why to have PvP enemy health indicators:
1) Executes/builder-spender/combo/dmg burst styles of gameplay. They've already leaned into these styles of play with their class design. Fighters even have an execute. And, no, knowledge of the game and a feeling for TTK doesn't make this go away. Those basically only apply to fair duels. In open world pvp and group battles there's no accurate sense you can develop for who is low on health and not.
2) Target choice. This matters for group PvP.
Why not to:
1) Gaming the flagging system.
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These seem like the main important factors. I don't think the aesthetic (or immersion) reasons or seeing the bars change matter as much. There will be combat text, so big numbers are shown anyway. Aesthetics just take a back seat to gameplay - especially right now as things are aesthetically going to change a lot before launch.
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A: The partial HP bars seem like they address both issues pretty decently already. If anything, there are still issues with the con. Maybe you can't tell exaclty if you will kill a low HP player, you can be reasonably assured that you won't accidentally kill a high HP player.
B: Seems like the better answer for the con is to just change the flagging system to where if I attack a green and the green dies within ~30 secs, I get corruption regardless of if the killing blow was an NPC or other players, or myself.
It has been sitting weird with me for a while now that the flagging feels like too rigid a structure with obvious loopholes and that needs to be over-explained because it's very unintuitive.
1- it snot that hard to see who is injured or not. just look at your screen. unless someone just came new to your screen, you can always tell. on top of that, you are supposed to coordinate strikes with your team. your reasoning for health bars is "I wanna go for picks so I need to know exactly who to pick on". it doesn't matter if you could have done 5% more damage with your execute, since the target will die anyways because you are hitting him with your team. doesn't matter who gets the kill.
2- god no. that has been suggested before, and its one of the worst changes that could happen to the corruption system. only the person who lands the killing blow on a green should get corruption, otherwise you make the system worse and super abusable.
1) What? No, this is an ignorant take. Even when you are coordinating with a group, you want to optimize target selection and know when to dump damage. It absolutely makes a difference.
Do I hate when it happens to me, yes, that's why I then join the guild chat, get some buddies to come, and make that guys next hour a respawn counter simulator.
The problem here is that those who do this shit won't be punished for it. Or, at the very least, will have a much smaller chance of being punished, as compared to the chance in a system where player hp is invisible.
Yes, guilds will help with this, and I hope that everyone find a guild that helps them, but the dudes who'd go for this abuse would target the guildless people. And this usually just gets complains and leads to a change in the system. But obviously the hp visibility won't change when the game is already out, so instead the corruption system will changed somehow, to make it even more penalizing and strict.
And I personally don't want this system changing to something even more hardcore.
Also I pretty much only pvp in games unless it's necessary to pve to either a: level up faster, b: get very important gear upgrades, c: skill unlock quests.
As I thought. Fragmented gameplay loops. Safety of choice
Even MO2 has target health bars, so this 'carebear' counterargument is bs.
Yes, very indepth mmo... not at all a survival game.
Full of class, affiliations and skill choices.
More complex gameplay systems tied together than AOC might have.
This is only true if you only factor in one aspect of instances, and ignore the rest.
Which I am doing, because I couldn't care less about anything else If something is effectively an instance - to me that's an instance Everything else is simply semantics.
For it to be an instance though, if you have your 500v500 siege going on, I should be able to take my own 500v500 players to start another siege.
If there is only one version of the content available, it is not performing the primary intended purpose of instancing in an MMO (it was introduced to provide players with more content, the player restriction was a useful side effect).
Green death you drop less than a red death though. So I am not sure what you mean here. If I had 100% life and no mobs attacking me and he killed me without me attacking back he would receive the same loot as if a mob got the last hit. Only by attacking back do I change that modifier, and in that case if I attack back and lose I drop even more than.
Sorry if I am just misunderstanding this but I don't understand how it would be worse to die by a mob than a player?
As I currently understand it.
Red(Corrupted) death drops 4x more than green(non-combatant), but green drops 2x more than purple(combatant). If I attack you I'll go purple and you don't go purple unless you attack back. If I can use mobs to kill people without them being able to attack me, not only will I not go red but they will die green. There is also no penalty unless I kill them. This might encourage people to go around "tagging" people fighting monsters.
it was introduced to provide players with more content, the player restriction was a useful side effect.
This is just another difference in our experiences. In L2 instances were introduced to let the pve be more complex. And then later on when, I assume, enough people didn't complain about those instances, NCsoft introduced all the types of instances that you're talking about, where every fucking solo player could have their own little piece of content.
Either way. Like I've said multiple times, I'm wrong - cool, I couldn't care less. If no one can interrupt my activity - I'm in a damn instance.
it was introduced to provide players with more content, the player restriction was a useful side effect.
This is just another difference in our experiences. In L2 instances were introduced to let the pve be more complex. And then later on when, I assume, enough people didn't complain about those instances, NCsoft introduced all the types of instances that you're talking about, where every fucking solo player could have their own little piece of content.
Either way. Like I've said multiple times, I'm wrong - cool, I couldn't care less. If no one can interrupt my activity - I'm in a damn instance.
If its on twitch, confirmed game is open world now.
Wiki:
"Castle seiges occur in the open world, but may become instanced based on testing."
We should politic for open world for sure.
Node seiges, it's not clear. Could go either way based on what was said.
Node and Guild Wars are open world. We just saw that.
No need to politic for Open World.
It's not a matter of who wants what. Steven wants Castle Sieges to be Open World.
There would have to be programming obstacles that prevent Castle Sieges from being Open World.
If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).
No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong
If you want to kill then just kill.
However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying.
That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).
No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong
If you want to kill then just kill.
However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes.
No, it doesn't reduce anything if you know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong
If you want to kill then just kill.
However, I am not against a potion that let's you hide your health bars for a few minutes.
If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).
No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong
If you want to kill then just kill.
However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying.
That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games
This will feel an extremely silly thing to ask but... what about our own health bar then? There are some game genres that keep that information from the player, or at least obfuscate a precise value. Atypical for RPGs, as it would be in the way of the stats-porn, but frequent in FPS and survival games.
I'm not pushing or pulling in any direction, just presenting another aspect of the issue. Is it fairer if no one knows anyone's exact health? If you know your own, it's easier to factor in that variable in your decision making, whether your the attacker or the defender: you know what state your character's health is.
If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).
No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong
If you want to kill then just kill.
However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying.
That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games
I am okay with anything, health bars or no health bars. But I do think that if they add health bars, they need to change the flagging system. Otherwise I am just going to game the system and people will complain about it here on launch.
This will feel an extremely silly thing to ask but... what about our own health bar then? There are some game genres that keep that information from the player, or at least obfuscate a precise value. Atypical for RPGs, as it would be in the way of the stats-porn, but frequent in FPS and survival games.
Reading this just made me think. Wouldn't it be cool if they did no health bars but characters showed damage? Gear tatters, blood stains show and so forth.
But in an mmo your health moves so often, particularly in a pve boss encounter that your look would be changing like a strobe light.
It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed.
What is wrong with the flagging system?
The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me.
It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back. Also, if they get killed by mobs, it will not give corruption. So my current strategy would to go around and reduce green players health by as much as possible before they flag. If they attack back, then kill them. If they don't, try to have a mob kill them and basically just be annoying. Either way the corruption system has little to do with it.
Greens are supposed to be encouraged to fight back because they lose less stuff if they do. But in order to do that they need to target and attack the purple attacking them, while also dealing with whatever they were doing before. They will definitely be starting on the back foot.
Meanwhile there is an entire system (Bounty Hunters) that rely on people becoming corrupted. But the corruption system is there to prevent griefing. As I understand it, they want some griefing but not to much.
The simplest fix I see is just to allow people to flag to combatant as they want. Maybe even give them a buff(gathering, dps, etc) to encourage it. And then give people corruption just for attacking greens. This will stop most gaming of the corruption system, still allow murder hobos to kill greens for dopamine, increase the number of targets for Bounty Hunters. Plus I wont have to tag every stranger to see if they want to throw down.
Also, if they get killed by mobs, it will not give corruption. So my current strategy would to go around and reduce green players health by as much as possible before they flag. If they attack back, then kill them. If they don't, try to have a mob kill them and basically just be annoying. Either way the corruption system has little to do with it.
And this is exactly one of the reasons why some of us want invisible hp. Because attacking greens with this strat in mind would be way more dangerous for the attacker, cause you'll never know what hp your victim is at.
Greens are supposed to be encouraged to fight back because they lose less stuff if they do. But in order to do that they need to target and attack the purple attacking them, while also dealing with whatever they were doing before. They will definitely be starting on the back foot.
This is why I hope Intrepid design a good set of ability tools for managing mobs in pvp situations, and the pvx encounter will be all about proper use of those tools. So far we haven't seen any of that, sadly.
Meanwhile there is an entire system (Bounty Hunters) that rely on people becoming corrupted. But the corruption system is there to prevent griefing. As I understand it, they want some griefing but not to much.
Yes, so far this is one of the weakest presented systems in the game. And definitely one of the most contradictory as well. I personally hope they expand on it, but that would only happen later on in A2, if at all.
The simplest fix I see is just to allow people to flag to combatant as they want. Maybe even give them a buff(gathering, dps, etc) to encourage it. And then give people corruption just for attacking greens. This will stop most gaming of the corruption system, still allow murder hobos to kill greens for dopamine, increase the number of targets for Bounty Hunters. Plus I wont have to tag every stranger to see if they want to throw down.
This would require lessening of the corruption penalties, and also a whole rebalancing of whatever plans they currently have for economic design, cause if pvp on-ers have boosted effects while touching greens immediately makes you a free target for anyone around (with decreased stats) - that drastically changed any interaction between players and any plans those players have for their gameplay.
I'm confused how people still think corruption is the main pvp, even more so after seeing the node wars stream lol.
Then you have people saying its not perfect so its flawed as a argument lmao. You can apply this to anything its not perfect so system is flawed. Nothing is going to be perfect in a game, it just needs to serve its purpose well enough to entice something or reduce something enough.
Removing health bars for what? The only reason you gave was that you could be fed to mobs, this isn't BDO and im sure Steven has said before that the game will be able to detect whether you died a PvE death or PvP death based on when a player attacked you or how much damage they did relative to the mob that was hitting you.
If you don't like the visual clutter im sure there will be a setting to turn them off like plenty of other games have.
Indicators are one thing of whether you want them turned on client-side in settings or not and personalized but I'd argue that health bars are essential information especially if we're going to have finishers/executes or other abilities that do dmg based on health whether its current or missing.
Comments
Green death you drop less than a red death though. So I am not sure what you mean here. If I had 100% life and no mobs attacking me and he killed me without me attacking back he would receive the same loot as if a mob got the last hit. Only by attacking back do I change that modifier, and in that case if I attack back and lose I drop even more than.
Sorry if I am just misunderstanding this but I don't understand how it would be worse to die by a mob than a player?
You might not be dying to the mob w/o other players attacking, but you either have to stop farming mobs or just die, if a player does attack you.
Both the death or the preventing of your content are seen as bad by majority of people. And visible hp makes that bad thing happen more frequently, because it's now easier to execute.
Yes, this is the only issue I see with it and based on what Steven has said with this game being a big Risk vs Reward, open world pvp, penalties for killing non pvp players and such. I think its just going to be a core part of the game. I have always played on PVP servers in mmos and sorry but its just part of the game to be killed while questing. Do I hate when it happens to me, yes, that's why I then join the guild chat, get some buddies to come, and make that guys next hour a respawn counter simulator.
The other mmos you played were a themepark trail to the end game, with gearing from safe instanced raid treadmills.
Not true. One of the mmos I have played was called Knight Online. If a player kills you they get half of all your acquired gold and pvp currency or a minimum amount stipulated. If you don't have that minimum amount you lost 10% of your exp. It would takes weeks to grind a single level so this was a huge loss. You could even de-level and lose skills if you died enough. It was a brutal game. Needed gold for health and mana potions as well, 2-3 skill casts would deplete your mana completely so you needed at least 200-300 mana pots to even pvp in the first place.
1) What? No, this is an ignorant take. Even when you are coordinating with a group, you want to optimize target selection and know when to dump damage. It absolutely makes a difference.
2) How so? More abusable than the current system?
Yes, guilds will help with this, and I hope that everyone find a guild that helps them, but the dudes who'd go for this abuse would target the guildless people. And this usually just gets complains and leads to a change in the system. But obviously the hp visibility won't change when the game is already out, so instead the corruption system will changed somehow, to make it even more penalizing and strict.
And I personally don't want this system changing to something even more hardcore.
As I thought. Fragmented gameplay loops. Safety of choice
Yes, very indepth mmo... not at all a survival game.
Full of class, affiliations and skill choices.
More complex gameplay systems tied together than AOC might have.
For it to be an instance though, if you have your 500v500 siege going on, I should be able to take my own 500v500 players to start another siege.
If there is only one version of the content available, it is not performing the primary intended purpose of instancing in an MMO (it was introduced to provide players with more content, the player restriction was a useful side effect).
Red(Corrupted) death drops 4x more than green(non-combatant), but green drops 2x more than purple(combatant). If I attack you I'll go purple and you don't go purple unless you attack back. If I can use mobs to kill people without them being able to attack me, not only will I not go red but they will die green. There is also no penalty unless I kill them. This might encourage people to go around "tagging" people fighting monsters.
Either way. Like I've said multiple times, I'm wrong - cool, I couldn't care less. If no one can interrupt my activity - I'm in a damn instance.
If its on twitch, confirmed game is open world now.
It's not a matter of who wants what. Steven wants Castle Sieges to be Open World.
There would have to be programming obstacles that prevent Castle Sieges from being Open World.
It could be, but I am not talking about "my experiences". You know I rarely talk about things from just one subjective perspective.
I am talking about why instancing in MMORPG's was first imagined and developed full stop, as opposed to how it was used in a given game.
No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong
If you want to kill then just kill.
However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying.
That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games
Uh huh. 🤦♂️
No, it doesn't reduce anything if you know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong
If you want to kill then just kill.
However, I am not against a potion that let's you hide your health bars for a few minutes.
This will feel an extremely silly thing to ask but... what about our own health bar then? There are some game genres that keep that information from the player, or at least obfuscate a precise value. Atypical for RPGs, as it would be in the way of the stats-porn, but frequent in FPS and survival games.
I'm not pushing or pulling in any direction, just presenting another aspect of the issue. Is it fairer if no one knows anyone's exact health? If you know your own, it's easier to factor in that variable in your decision making, whether your the attacker or the defender: you know what state your character's health is.
I am okay with anything, health bars or no health bars. But I do think that if they add health bars, they need to change the flagging system. Otherwise I am just going to game the system and people will complain about it here on launch.
What is wrong with the flagging system?
Reading this just made me think. Wouldn't it be cool if they did no health bars but characters showed damage? Gear tatters, blood stains show and so forth.
But in an mmo your health moves so often, particularly in a pve boss encounter that your look would be changing like a strobe light.
The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me.
It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back. Also, if they get killed by mobs, it will not give corruption. So my current strategy would to go around and reduce green players health by as much as possible before they flag. If they attack back, then kill them. If they don't, try to have a mob kill them and basically just be annoying. Either way the corruption system has little to do with it.
Greens are supposed to be encouraged to fight back because they lose less stuff if they do. But in order to do that they need to target and attack the purple attacking them, while also dealing with whatever they were doing before. They will definitely be starting on the back foot.
Meanwhile there is an entire system (Bounty Hunters) that rely on people becoming corrupted. But the corruption system is there to prevent griefing. As I understand it, they want some griefing but not to much.
The simplest fix I see is just to allow people to flag to combatant as they want. Maybe even give them a buff(gathering, dps, etc) to encourage it. And then give people corruption just for attacking greens. This will stop most gaming of the corruption system, still allow murder hobos to kill greens for dopamine, increase the number of targets for Bounty Hunters. Plus I wont have to tag every stranger to see if they want to throw down.
And this is exactly one of the reasons why some of us want invisible hp. Because attacking greens with this strat in mind would be way more dangerous for the attacker, cause you'll never know what hp your victim is at.
This is why I hope Intrepid design a good set of ability tools for managing mobs in pvp situations, and the pvx encounter will be all about proper use of those tools. So far we haven't seen any of that, sadly.
Yes, so far this is one of the weakest presented systems in the game. And definitely one of the most contradictory as well. I personally hope they expand on it, but that would only happen later on in A2, if at all.
This would require lessening of the corruption penalties, and also a whole rebalancing of whatever plans they currently have for economic design, cause if pvp on-ers have boosted effects while touching greens immediately makes you a free target for anyone around (with decreased stats) - that drastically changed any interaction between players and any plans those players have for their gameplay.
Toggleable pvp is usually very shit.
Then you have people saying its not perfect so its flawed as a argument lmao. You can apply this to anything its not perfect so system is flawed. Nothing is going to be perfect in a game, it just needs to serve its purpose well enough to entice something or reduce something enough.
If you don't like the visual clutter im sure there will be a setting to turn them off like plenty of other games have.
Indicators are one thing of whether you want them turned on client-side in settings or not and personalized but I'd argue that health bars are essential information especially if we're going to have finishers/executes or other abilities that do dmg based on health whether its current or missing.