Chaliux was trying to be reasonable for most of their posts, then got provoked by NiKr, then got pulled into the vortex. Mixups everywhere.
So at some point maybe you lumped Chaliux and Airborne together due to NiKr's Provoke after a while. And I then had my usual tendency to 'defuse any two people who don't actually strongly disagree with each other'.
Well done summary. Thanks for the flowers getting my posts reasonable IF someone has the ability to chance perspective, if not, the entire discussion does not make sense.
This game if for all player types. All. The restricted view that it is only for owpvp L2 players, is just terribly wrong. And I'm the prove for that and just because 2-3 other keyboard warriros argue in another direction will not change anything. Just switch forum or listing to the internet, so outside the bubble existing here and you will learn. Not "you", Azherae, but others, that are very convinced about their point of view. Well, I'm as well. if Ashes doesn't want to have grey, it will have a dark MMO life - Fine with that. We will see.
You can get good rewards also with low time invest. Other games prove this since years.
Yeah, and they're all boring as hell because of it. You're free to go play them.
That was the only relevant part of your entire posting, because everything just repeated again and again.
This part is essential, because your definition of "satisfaction" is invested time instead of challenging content. You didn't say that, but that's the assumption.
I provide an example for you: I've played arena ranking on Gladiator level, in WoW. I'm not sure what's the name in L2 or whatsoever for this. For this success and highest rewards I invested 4-5h a week. Boring? What the hell are you talking... You seem to have a very limited experience of what a MMO can and should offer so that all attracted players (and Ashes is attracting all of them and NEEDs all of them) find their content with suitable and meaninful rewards. If the game is only a "competion" and "being better than everybody else" all the time, than this is your single definition of it. It's a massive multiplay role play game, it's not the point to make business out of a game by saying: If you invest more time it's not boring.
Solo players need content. Small group (2-4) needs content. Medium group (8-16) needs content. Raids (40+) need content. Each group needs meaningful things to do while not invalidating the other. Catering to only one of these groups will only hurt retention and the revolving door that is MMO population
Exactly.
It is not only a group-competetive-owpvp game. Some minority of players reduce it to this single playing style for them personally. That's all.
Solo players need a place in the world, but they have to keep in mind soloing is harder than being in a group. Ashes as a game needs to help players find groups organically through quest design, level up dungeons, character progression etc.
That's clear since MMO started to be on the market. But some MMOs lack to respect the players time and dont reward it in a meaningful way. I want Ashes to learn from history and experience and do it better. If a solo player invests his time in his challenging content he should get reasonable stuff. Will a raid-group get more? Yeah sure, but that never was the topic or at least never my (!) point in this discussion.
It's confirmed hiere. All playstyles are wanted and needed.
I don't want to discuss with other persons feeling and thinking that the game is their owpvp-whatsoever-copy from an old, aged or dead game, because it's not.
Solo players need content. Small group (2-4) needs content. Medium group (8-16) needs content. Raids (40+) need content. Each group needs meaningful things to do while not invalidating the other. Catering to only one of these groups will only hurt retention and the revolving door that is MMO population
Exactly.
It is not only a group-competetive-owpvp game. Some minority of players reduce it to this single playing style for them personally. That's all.
Solo players need a place in the world, but they have to keep in mind soloing is harder than being in a group. Ashes as a game needs to help players find groups organically through quest design, level up dungeons, character progression etc.
That's clear since MMO started to be on the market. But some MMOs lack to respect the players time and dont reward it in a meaningful way. I want Ashes to learn from history and experience and do it better. If a solo player invests his time in his challenging content he should get reasonable stuff. Will a raid-group get more? Yeah sure, but that never was the topic or at least never my (!) point in this discussion.
It's confirmed hiere. All playstyles are wanted and needed.
I don't want to discuss with other persons feeling and thinking that the game is their owpvp-whatsoever-copy from an old, aged or dead game, because it's not.
It's very much an open world game that involves the possibility of pvp. That said, ashes should focus on getting people to organically find guilds and nodes that enjoy content catering to each player.
The real question solo players should ask is not how am I rewarded, but how does ashes help me find a guild.
You can get good rewards also with low time invest. Other games prove this since years.
Yeah, and they're all boring as hell because of it. You're free to go play them.
I provide an example for you: I've played arena ranking on Gladiator level, in WoW. I'm not sure what's the name in L2 or whatsoever for this. For this success and highest rewards I invested 4-5h a week. Boring? What the hell are you talking...
I am very excited for you to play Ashes and experience meaningful objective-based combat.
If the game is only a "competion" and "being better than everybody else" all the time, than this is your single definition of it. It's a massive multiplay role play game, it's not the point to make business out of a game by saying: If you invest more time it's not boring.
Just because investing more time makes you more successful doesn't mean you have to invest more time to have fun. You can have fun with the success you and your allies get without reaching "the end," or in this case "the top." Shouldn't you in particular be even more fine with that concept, because you're so content with your real life that you don't need to compete in video games?
You can still get rewards for the challenges you overcome.
So I just don't see the problem with waiting 6 months for a really cool reward, while more ambitious players who invest more time get it earlier, and you get to participate in the economy that makes it possible.
The challenging gameplay itself is the *actual* content you're enjoying after all, right, not the dopamine rush of having high-level equipment? It's also very rewarding to beat someone who has better gear than you.
If your primary concern is a pure measurement of skill, League of Legends and Valorant are just a few clicks away. Or Monster Hunter or whatever, if you prefer PvE. Part of the MMO experience is having diverse power levels in the community, that has always been that way, otherwise it wouldn't need to be its own genre, and that's what personal growth in MMOs is centred around. If everyone who plays for 3 months and knows how to beat a dungeon gets top-tier gear, why have gear tiers at all?
Most of the content will not allow no-lifers to have unlimited progress as far as gear and wealth is concerned. The time-cost-efficient stuff will be limited, so it will still take a substantial amount of time for most of them to get it.
And there will be enough clans to keep the other clans in check, and you should be able to find allies among one of them. Doesn't mean you have to group and play with them, just that they'll be there to counterbalance the other no-lifers with strong gear.
I promised I'd stay out of this thread, but I feel like these final clarifications are innocuous enough.
The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
Not even my kinda unhinged Topic in which i was already gloating about the coming mental breakdowns and Outbursts over Ashes of Creation's Success in a few Years was this cringe however.
( Okay, maybe it was. lol)
How is this Topic here however even a thing ? This Game is the type of Game the FARTHEST AWAY from being any kind of "Solo"-Player Experience. An MMO should never be able to get played Solo. One should always need to have at least Two Friends with themselves - at minimum.
I pray to the Others that Alpha Two comes quickly and be it just a Feeling and Illusion until it is actually here. Everything that will replace this Cringe Festival of a Topic with actual "Gameplay" (Testing) Experience is welcome.
I mean, i see what this Delay does to the Heads of other People. Especially a certain Copium-Addict.
I understand. It sucks. lol
This game if for all player types. All. The restricted view that it is only for owpvp L2 players, is just terribly wrong. And I'm the prove for that and just because 2-3 other keyboard warriros argue in another direction will not change anything. Just switch forum or listing to the internet, so outside the bubble existing here and you will learn. Not "you", Azherae, but others, that are very convinced about their point of view. Well, I'm as well. if Ashes doesn't want to have grey, it will have a dark MMO life - Fine with that. We will see.
This game is designed more for some types than others.
There's stuff for Solo players to do, but Ashes doesn't really cater to Solo play.
Ashes heavily favors Group play.
I'm pretty sure no one here is arguing that Ashes target audience is only L2 players.
But, Intrepid is not really trying to entice PvE EQ/WoW Solo players.
You are not the proof of anything. You have interest in a game that heavily favors Group play over Solo play.
Everyone here understands that. But...
Ashes has a very niche audience. Ashes is not made for everyone.
---Steven
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
An MMO should never be able to get played Solo. One should always need to have at least Two Friends with themselves.
Solo means not being joined together in a Group.
You can have friends with you in the game and all still be playing Solo.
MMO doesn't mean always joined together in a Group.
Ashes has some Solo content.
But, encounters are balanced for an 8-person Group with one of each Primary Archetype.
And Stevens primary goal/purpose for the game is 500 v 500 PvP battles.
I am very excited for you to play Ashes and experience meaningful objective-based combat.
Arena was only an example, one example, as I've stated. I've been playing objective-based pvp-combat since years, rated battlegrounds with different objectives/map goals, sieges, etc. In different MMOs. So, not sure what you are excited about. Perhaps for yourself between L2 and Ashes? Not sure.
Shouldn't you in particular be even more fine with that concept, because you're so content with your real life that you don't need to compete in video games?
As I've said, it's important, that the invested time is respected from the game, therefore from the developers. If casuals (and/or solo-players) get their rewards, everything ist fine. It's a pointless discussion, except your are in the meaning, that casuals or solo-players shouldn't get something because they are... casuals and solo-players. In this case a discussion is worth it, because I see this completely differet. If a player invests his time, he should get a reward.
So I just don't see the problem with waiting 6 months for a really cool reward, while more ambitious players who invest more time get it earlier, and you get to participate in the economy that makes it possible.
This is exactly what I've said - but 6 month are of course way to long.
Artificial example: A pvx open world raid boss (like firebrand) drops a legendary sword (name it like you wish). In Ashes few items, or no items, will be soulbound. So, it's tradeble or the player that gets it can seel it at the auction house. Here meaningfull rewarding solo-content comes in place. The solo player can do stuff to increase his gold/glint/coins/whatsoever, by questing, gathering (and selling it), crafting (and selling crafted items) to be in a position to go to the auction house buying that legendary sword, because he is not attending open world raids that perhaps take 4-5 hours (onyl example) if pvp fights are occuring. This is a reasonable cycle, this Ashes must provide, that also a casual player experiences character progress - here gear-wise. He will of course need more time for that, but in the end, he will have his (gear) reward. That's important, that's the carrot, that's needed, otherwise a lot of players will leave the game soon.
Or, to say in in other words: Like every solid MMO out there is doing it (except GW2, see below, that's a different approach, but some players like it)
Part of the MMO experience is having diverse power levels in the community, that has always been that way, otherwise it wouldn't need to be its own genre
Well again, you are wrong, which is again just due to lack of experience. In PvE, you are right. In PvP that's untrue. Only pvp cowards like the fact that they are just stronger because they have better gear, lol. Every serious pvp player knows, that the only real challenge is, to beat somebody which equals in gear and skill. This is right and essential in small scale pvp but also valid in large scale pvp, because overgeared zerg-guilds otherwise will dominate everything to hard and to fast.
Just take Guild Wars 2 as completely different example: There is no hard gear-progression. If you reach max level and invest some time, you are at the top. If you do a break for 3 month, you are still. Nobody else is at better gear or if only with a very small percentage. If you join PvP fights like sPvP in GW2, all players get the same gear at start. There is not gear-difference. So, what to say - I would propose that you collect some experience from the market and the several MMOs out there to get on the same level for our discussion.
Most of the content will not allow no-lifers to have unlimited progress as far as gear and wealth is concerned.
That's a good thing, otherwise developers can handle this with mechanics, time-gating for instance. That's also done in other MMOs that the community is not separated too much, because it decreases the overall health of the game. And, it will make the game to easy for no-lifers, because they will roll-over other players by facerolling their keyboard, which is not fun at all, but boring.
I promised I'd stay out of this thread, but I feel like these final clarifications are innocuous enough.
They acutally changed nothing.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You seem to have a very limited experience of what a MMO can and should offer so that all attracted players (and Ashes is attracting all of them and NEEDs all of them) find their content with suitable and meaninful rewards. If the game is only a "competion" and "being better than everybody else" all the time, than this is your single definition of it. It's a massive multiplay role play game, it's not the point to make business out of a game by saying: If you invest more time it's not boring.
A lot of MMORPG fans that Ashes initially attracts just by being a new UE5 MMORPG won't actually play Ashes because it's designed for a very niche MMORPG audience rather than a broad MMORPG audience.
Steven is obsessed with constant competition, Risk v Reward and massive PvP battles.
And the Ashes target audience is MMORPG fans who love constant competition, Risk v Reward and massive PvP battles.
Players who don't love all that will probably end up playing some other MMO.
Hopefully there are enough players for that niche, because the integrated systems need a lot of players to work smoothly. And, as Steven said by himself several times: He needs all player types for this linked game designs to work well. The game will not work if there are only 40 man raids running around in the open world doing zerg pvp.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We will have to see if there are enough people in that niche to keep servers running for 10+ years.
Steven used to say that MMORPGs need all player types - when Jeffrey Bard was still Lead Game Designer.
The last two years, as the game design has become more niche with the absence of Jeffrey, Steven has been frequently saying, "We always said that Ashes is not made for everyone. And we're OK with that."
NO MMO is for everyone. Marketing speech, dont be to excited (or naive).
And yes, I also hope there are enough players. I dont care which player type, I only care that its a mature community. Its the most important. Mature, friendly, supporting. This is the most important aspect for a long living MMO. Fun content, progression and no degression, content offer in PvP and PvE for everybody and a mature community.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you chose to run around in a group the pvp aspect is still there.
So no choice that there is no pvp aspect?
Or if yes, how can the player by himself do this choice that he cannot be attacked? Which flag in the UI he can disable that there is no chance to get attacked at all? Would you please provide the source for your answer, probably I didn't see it on wiki or somehwere else. Because my state of information is, that the player has no choice that he cannot be attacked. If you wants to be attacked, he has a choice, it's called pvp-flag, combatant.
If you chose to run around solo the pvp aspect is still there.
So, non-combatant is no real choice then?
Choice: I don't want to get attacked and play pvp for the next 2 hours during gathering fish.
Game systems: Not possible. Game choice is: You still can be attacked, you have no choice.
I just don't expect to get "meaningful" anything with out the risk and effort to get it.
Why not? Why is reward something elisist and exclusive? We are still talking about a computer game or are we already in business on the job?
There seems to "plenty" of solo content (5 topics/clusters). Playing solo is the highest risk in the game. Is the reward the highest one than? The entire logic is wrong. IF non-combatant would be real non-combatant, than that would change a bit.
What's the high risk of a 40 man raid running around and terminating all other players and small groups on their way? They get all the rewards/loot than, right?
There is always a choice. Whether you choose to choose a choice that was presented or not is entirely up to you.
Hell choosing to log in or not is a choice.
The fact the flagging system is the was it is was a choice made by Intrepid.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
NO MMO is for everyone. Marketing speech, dont be to excited (or naive).
And yes, I also hope there are enough players. I dont care which player type, I only care that its a mature community. Its the most important. Mature, friendly, supporting. This is the most important aspect for a long living MMO. Fun content, progression and no degression, content offer in PvP and PvE for everybody and a mature community.
This MMORPG is designed for a niche audience.
I dunno what you think "mature" means.
This game is targeted at OW PvPers with a heavy focus on Risk v Reward and massive PvP Sieges and Wars.
I would not expect the gameplay to be "mature" especially with all the trash-talking I've seen the devs doing while they play games. I expect the gamers who play Ashes to be ruthless, rather than friendly and supporting.
Outside of the game, the people here mostly tend to be mature, friendly, supporting. Yes.
While playing the game, their player characters will be highly competitive, combative, conniving and ruthless... and mostly focused on PvP, looting and massive PvP Sieges, Wars and Caravan Raids.
Artificial example: A pvx open world raid boss (like firebrand) drops a legendary sword (name it like you wish). In Ashes few items, or no items, will be soulbound. So, it's tradeble or the player that gets it can seel it at the auction house. Here meaningfull rewarding solo-content comes in place. The solo player can do stuff to increase his gold/glint/coins/whatsoever, by questing, gathering (and selling it), crafting (and selling crafted items) to be in a position to go to the auction house buying that legendary sword, because he is not attending open world raids that perhaps take 4-5 hours (onyl example) if pvp fights are occuring. This is a reasonable cycle, this Ashes must provide, that also a casual player experiences character progress - here gear-wise. He will of course need more time for that, but in the end, he will have his (gear) reward. That's important, that's the carrot, that's needed, otherwise a lot of players will leave the game soon.
[...]
Most of the content will not allow no-lifers to have unlimited progress as far as gear and wealth is concerned.
That's a good thing, otherwise developers can handle this with mechanics, time-gating for instance. That's also done in other MMOs that the community is not separated too much, because it decreases the overall health of the game. And, it will make the game to easy for no-lifers, because they will roll-over other players by facerolling their keyboard, which is not fun at all, but boring.
[...]
As I've said, it's important, that the invested time is respected from the game, therefore from the developers. If casuals (and/or solo-players) get their rewards, everything ist fine. It's a pointless discussion, except your are in the meaning, that casuals or solo-players shouldn't get something because they are... casuals and solo-players. In this case a discussion is worth it, because I see this completely differet. If a player invests his time, he should get a reward.
What did you just say that should inspire any sort of change in Ashes's design directive or that you think I would disagree with?
Well again, you are wrong, which is again just due to lack of experience. In PvE, you are right. In PvP that's untrue. Only pvp cowards like the fact that they are just stronger because they have better gear, lol. Every serious pvp player knows, that the only real challenge is, to beat somebody which equals in gear and skill. This is right and essential in small scale pvp but also valid in large scale pvp, because overgeared zerg-guilds otherwise will dominate everything to hard and to fast.
Ignoring everything I said about allying with others and supporting others to reach the same strength as those overgeared meanies.
Also ignoring everything I've said about the fact that this is the whole point of the genre. Otherwise, again, why not just go play an arena battle game? Why be interested in a game with any amount of sandbox elements, if you strictly want fully organised, perfectly balanced themepark rides?
Just take Guild Wars 2 as completely different example: There is no hard gear-progression. If you reach max level and invest some time, you are at the top. If you do a break for 3 month, you are still. Nobody else is at better gear or if only with a very small percentage. If you join PvP fights like sPvP in GW2, all players get the same gear at start. There is not gear-difference. So, what to say - I would propose that you collect some experience from the market and the several MMOs out there to get on the same level for our discussion
Again, then why make players farm equipment at all? That sounds like a completely pointless time sink, if all you do is farm gear to qualify to be able to do other stuff. How is THAT not disrespectful of the player's time?
The whole point of competition for resources is that some people can get more and better resources than others. [Resources here includes crafting materials and rarer, stronger equipment.]
Then you can attempt to still beat those people by outskilling them despite their advantage, or you can ally up with other people who invest as much time and effort as those opponents, so you can keep up with them and use your skill to lead your allies to victory using their resources.
By comparison to that interactive power dynamic with decisionmaking with depth, the Guild Wars game loop seems even more soulless and meaningless than WoW or ESO, which says quite a lot.
The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
Also ignoring everything I've said about the fact that this is the whole point of the genre.
That's not the point, especially not in this thread, where it's all about the the question and concerns: Will solo players be able to play meaningful content?
And you are permanently ignoring that the market of MMO genres changed. I'm not sure why you think a MMO is like it was 20 years ago. Because they are not. No one single MMO out there. And that's because the market (players) changed, and so the games. Sure, you can build a mobile phone which is no smart phone, but that doesnt' mean that that's a good decision or mobile design nowaydays. Combining features and set them to a new level, yes, that's success. So, if a MMO wants to be a good one, it should combine solo- and group content. And Ashes is promising this, as it is promising PvE and PvP content all the time. Developer speech and wiki quotes are full with this information, so confirming it.
Playing solo has - again... - nothing to do with the situation, that this player is also playing group content or within guilds. Seriously, nothing. It's all about: Can a solo player play solo because there is a) meaningful content for it and b) meaningful rewards respecting his invested time. That's all about it, and solid and good MMOs adress both of it, because the markets demands it.
Otherwise, again, why not just go play an arena battle game?
Because it's a completely different game/genre missing several other MMO parts. Balanced/structured pvp is one important part of a solid MMO, but not the only one. There also must be meaningful solo-content for all those types of players, that are doing some group and some solo stuff. It's just a wet dream that every player always will play within groups or 40man raids all the time. It's untrue, this will not happen.
Why be interested in a game with any amount of sandbox elements, if you strictly want fully organised, perfectly balanced themepark rides?
Ashes is combinging sandbox and themepark, nodes for instance are excaclty designed for this purpose.
So, the players are not interested in your "sandbox" elements, but themepark elements or something in between. The market for "sandbox" only is just too small and not succesful.
Steven knows that:
When it comes to how MMO’s have been traditionally designed, most gamers are familiar with two distinct types of gameplay loops: the “theme park”, and the “sandbox”. The vast majority of MMO’s we’ve all seen come and go in the gaming industry have been of the theme park variety – these games put the player onto a specific path, guiding them along, with plenty of pretty sights in between the same old quest hubs, very little in divergent paths, virtually no freedom in player progression. Recently the MMO genre has seen some games of the sandbox nature come onto the scene, but despite the ultimate freedom the sandbox affords players, many are left wanting more, as there is by definition no pre built world content, no human touch, just the vastness of the “sand” for lack of a better term. Thus many MMO players often find themselves caught between the repetitive rock of the theme park or the vast dead spaces of the sandbox’s hard place. This chasm between the state of MMO gameplay loops is where we intend to inject Ashes of Creation’s Node system.
Again, then why make players farm equipment at all?
Because of character progression. Many MMOs address gear-progression as character progression. Not all MMOs/games are doing this. GW2 is one example.
The more interesting question is, again: Why should a serious pvp player even think about being the better player or getting fun out of it just because he facerolls over other players just because of his better gear?
In Ashes there will be arena pvp gameplay. That's were you can be a hero, not in owpvp facerolling in 40man-raids over 15 other players running around.
If this is the aspect some players are gathering their fun than it's their personal attitude and (quite) chlidish behavior, why should this be the main goal and focus of any MMO or PvX game that is adresses to an aged, mature community, so MMO veterans, searching for a game that combines good feature of other MMOs out there - which is promised from Ashes on different levels and for several features. It's not an pvp only game, that's just untrue.
That sounds like a completely pointless time sink, if all you do is farm gear to qualify to be able to do other stuff. How is THAT not disrespectful of the player's time?
It's the MOST respectful approach if invested time leads to better gear, independent from what content is played and how this content is played. If gear-progression is within game-design (the carrot, so not like GW2, where the carrot is better looking gear, but not better gear stat/attribute-wise), than that's the only respect the game can provide to the player. Its of course not respectful if a player plays 6 months getting nothing or not enough rewarding stuff. That's pointless then, because why should he even play?
You are obviously mixing things up. There is the question about the carrot and the character progression. And there is the topic about balanced, serious and structured pvp. If you mix those things up, it's of course a mess.
More gear is qualifying you for more content, this is the common approach and it's working well. Again, one expection (GW2) is proving this rule.
The whole point of competition for resources is that some people can get more and better resources than others. [Resources here includes crafting materials and rarer, stronger equipment.]
Sure, that's why it's important that also solo players can gather ressources to get character- and gear-progression. Why should they pick up even one flower, if they will not get a profit and reward out of it later on?
By comparison to that interactive power dynamic with decisionmaking with depth, the Guild Wars game loop seems even more soulless and meaningless than WoW or ESO, which says quite a lot.
No, that's just because your lack of imagination that a MMO also works without gear-progression in the known / old-fashioned way, instead of having played GW1 or 2, like me, getting the experience (and I've also played the for sure not soulless and meaningless WoW) that this is also working and is perfect especially for players that don't like the FOMO-factor. If you stop playing GW2 for 2 month and come back you still are in a position to play together with everybody else, because the gear-difference is low or not existing, but other players maybe will have that cooler fire sword effect or better looking armor, because you can increase your style/cosmetics, but not you stats/attribute (you can, but with minor increases). That's important because quality and skill counts, not "I've played 15h a day and that's why I'm the virutal pvp hero". That's childish and crap, of course, so it respects all players, not only the frequent players (that sometimes define themselves around their virtual ingame achievements, which is sad enough ofc).
So, if you like being better than others because you've invested more time before and therefore you can facerool over other players, then that's only your personal access and attitude to this aspect of balanced pvp. For me it's the most boring thing to fight against other players that are lower in gear or skill.
You know the first pillar of Ashes? Do you?
1. Engaging and immersive story.
You know that is is not played in 40 main raids, right? You know that this highly likely will not be played within pvp-content? It's the first design pillar of the game. That's all about high fantasy with races, classes, story, lore, roleplaying (it's an MMORPG) and much more. This, first pillar, is by fact attracting also or especially solo players. But that's not the only aspect.
And Ashes wants solo players and needs casual players.
We just don't know yet, if the designs and rewards fit to that promise. And that's the reason of this entire thread. There is no need to answer with "but play in groups", because that's known and clear, but not the topic. The topic is: Is there meaningful solo content, as promised, that will reward the players and respect their investet time, not only a lot of time and only by playing group- or raid content.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What is the point of asking if there is content as promised before Alpha 2??
What is the point of discussing in the forum before release?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
To discuss all kinds of stuff other than whether stuff that isn't planned to be in Alpha 2 Phase 1 or Alpha 2 Phase 2 is actually in the game.
Is there meaningful content for Summoners, as promised?
Is there meaningful content for Religions and Social Orgs, as promised?
Nobody (but a minority of all players) cares only about Alpha 2, but the entire game at release.
Summoners? Sure, or rogue. Fine class discussions, why not?
Not sure what's your intention to ask such questions.
This thread is about concerns regarding solo-content and solo-players. If that's not interesting for you, nobody forces you to step in.
If there would be a rogue thread, I would step in, because I like the rogue class in MMOs. It's fully without relevance whether the rogue is just showing up in late Alpha (which seems to be the situation) or not, it's all about sharing opinions and discuss topics about the game itself, not the Alpha 2 or whatever development stage.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This is still going?
GW 2 sucks for a lot of reasons.
Piss poor class design being chief among them.
A day one noob competing with someone that has been there since day one ...... Really you call that good ?
Why stay if the best you can ever hope for is a new look?
Homogenized classes and world is super boring to me. Level scaling so no matter what you do it is all the same is really bad design. IMO. Lots of people like the complete lack of challenge that single player games like GW2 provide and that is ok.
I think it is highly disrespectful of the players to ask them to play a game where no matter what they do it is all the same challenge level.
I started playing GW1 . It was my first MMO was ok as a starter point but I put grew it.
Played GW2 for two weeks and tried really hard to like it not understanding why I didn't until I understood nothing mattered. Just a bunch of shaved cats running in circles throwing flaming poo at a loot pinata or each other.
I uninstalled and moved on.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Nobody cares only about Alpha 2, but the entire game at release.
Summoners? Sure, or rogue. Fine class discussions, why not?
Not sure what's your intention to ask such questions.
This thread is about concerns regarding solo-content and solo-players. If that's not interesting for you, nobody forces you to step in.
It's even more absurd to complain now about something in the design not making it into the release... when the game is still in early Alpha.
Sure. People will also be pissed if Summoner and Rogue don't make it into the release as promised.
If Summoner and Rogue don't make it into the game, I'm not even going to bother playing. I might as well switch to something else with generic classes like every other game.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If Summoner and Rogue don't make it into the game, I'm not even going to bother playing. I might as well switch to something else with generic classes like every other game.
Seems that would be true of just about any feature that's in the design but doesn't make it into the game.
I believe having diverse classes in games is something special, and not many games execute the summoner class well. It’s one of those classes that can be incredibly versatile, capable of switching between being a damage dealer, providing support, or offering other utilities. On the other hand, having a bard without a rogue in a meta setup would feel incomplete and strange.
This is where Ashes of Creation (AoC) could really set itself apart from other games—the promise of diverse classes and the ability to choose a role or class that fits your unique playstyle. It would also be great to have classes that can be flexible, allowing players to switch between melee or ranged combat, or even adopt a hybrid style. Also, I’m not talking about class-specific roles here, but rather dynamic gameplay mechanics that allow players to adapt and evolve their strategies. Taking that away would be a huge loss. In a landscape full of generic MMOs that lack meaningful class diversity, it’s refreshing to see a game embrace that approach. I prefer allowing players to play how they want and craft their own gameplay experience, rather than sticking to outdated, rigid systems.
3
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Trinity game play is pretty much the very definition of the above, I'm not sure how diverse an 8x8 class system can get with this restriction; this doesn't mean the game won't be fun anyway (which it should be given all the other gameplay mechanics on tap).
Trinity game play is pretty much the very definition of the above
I disagree.
The notion of a trinity (or simiar system) is kind of just how things work. The basics of a trinity (or similar system) can be reduced to the notion that everyone has a specific role to play in order to achieve a collective outcome. Once you understand that this is all a trinity (or similar system) is, you will realise that it can be found in game genres as divers as FPS and 4X games. It is present in many RTS games (or was when I played them), it is is in games like the XCom series (original and remake). It is even present in team sports such as football (regardless of which game you consider to be football), even water polo.
Saying that the notion of trinity gameplay is what has made MMO's generic makes about as much sense as claiming that they are generic because they are all real time as opposed to turn based. Splitting people off in to specific tasks is just how working together generally works - and this will result in a trinity system when it comes to combat in a game if there is a meaningful ability to draw enemy attention, deal damage to those enemies, and also heal allies.
If these three things exist, a trinity system will be formed out of them.
I can see how you may want to say that it is the implementation of the system that is causing generic MMO's, but I can't really see how you can blame the notion of working together (a trinity system).
Comments
This game if for all player types. All. The restricted view that it is only for owpvp L2 players, is just terribly wrong. And I'm the prove for that and just because 2-3 other keyboard warriros argue in another direction will not change anything. Just switch forum or listing to the internet, so outside the bubble existing here and you will learn. Not "you", Azherae, but others, that are very convinced about their point of view. Well, I'm as well. if Ashes doesn't want to have grey, it will have a dark MMO life - Fine with that. We will see.
This part is essential, because your definition of "satisfaction" is invested time instead of challenging content. You didn't say that, but that's the assumption.
I provide an example for you: I've played arena ranking on Gladiator level, in WoW. I'm not sure what's the name in L2 or whatsoever for this. For this success and highest rewards I invested 4-5h a week. Boring? What the hell are you talking... You seem to have a very limited experience of what a MMO can and should offer so that all attracted players (and Ashes is attracting all of them and NEEDs all of them) find their content with suitable and meaninful rewards. If the game is only a "competion" and "being better than everybody else" all the time, than this is your single definition of it. It's a massive multiplay role play game, it's not the point to make business out of a game by saying: If you invest more time it's not boring.
We agree to disagree, again. All the best.
It is not only a group-competetive-owpvp game. Some minority of players reduce it to this single playing style for them personally. That's all.
That's clear since MMO started to be on the market. But some MMOs lack to respect the players time and dont reward it in a meaningful way. I want Ashes to learn from history and experience and do it better. If a solo player invests his time in his challenging content he should get reasonable stuff. Will a raid-group get more? Yeah sure, but that never was the topic or at least never my (!) point in this discussion.
It's confirmed hiere. All playstyles are wanted and needed.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Playstyles
I don't want to discuss with other persons feeling and thinking that the game is their owpvp-whatsoever-copy from an old, aged or dead game, because it's not.
It's very much an open world game that involves the possibility of pvp. That said, ashes should focus on getting people to organically find guilds and nodes that enjoy content catering to each player.
The real question solo players should ask is not how am I rewarded, but how does ashes help me find a guild.
Just because investing more time makes you more successful doesn't mean you have to invest more time to have fun. You can have fun with the success you and your allies get without reaching "the end," or in this case "the top." Shouldn't you in particular be even more fine with that concept, because you're so content with your real life that you don't need to compete in video games?
You can still get rewards for the challenges you overcome.
So I just don't see the problem with waiting 6 months for a really cool reward, while more ambitious players who invest more time get it earlier, and you get to participate in the economy that makes it possible.
The challenging gameplay itself is the *actual* content you're enjoying after all, right, not the dopamine rush of having high-level equipment? It's also very rewarding to beat someone who has better gear than you.
If your primary concern is a pure measurement of skill, League of Legends and Valorant are just a few clicks away. Or Monster Hunter or whatever, if you prefer PvE. Part of the MMO experience is having diverse power levels in the community, that has always been that way, otherwise it wouldn't need to be its own genre, and that's what personal growth in MMOs is centred around. If everyone who plays for 3 months and knows how to beat a dungeon gets top-tier gear, why have gear tiers at all?
Most of the content will not allow no-lifers to have unlimited progress as far as gear and wealth is concerned. The time-cost-efficient stuff will be limited, so it will still take a substantial amount of time for most of them to get it.
And there will be enough clans to keep the other clans in check, and you should be able to find allies among one of them. Doesn't mean you have to group and play with them, just that they'll be there to counterbalance the other no-lifers with strong gear.
I promised I'd stay out of this thread, but I feel like these final clarifications are innocuous enough.
Not even my kinda unhinged Topic in which i was already gloating about the coming mental breakdowns and Outbursts over Ashes of Creation's Success in a few Years was this cringe however.
( Okay, maybe it was. lol)
How is this Topic here however even a thing ? This Game is the type of Game the FARTHEST AWAY from being any kind of "Solo"-Player Experience. An MMO should never be able to get played Solo. One should always need to have at least Two Friends with themselves - at minimum.
I pray to the Others that Alpha Two comes quickly and be it just a Feeling and Illusion until it is actually here. Everything that will replace this Cringe Festival of a Topic with actual "Gameplay" (Testing) Experience is welcome.
I mean, i see what this Delay does to the Heads of other People. Especially a certain Copium-Addict.
I understand. It sucks. lol
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
There's stuff for Solo players to do, but Ashes doesn't really cater to Solo play.
Ashes heavily favors Group play.
I'm pretty sure no one here is arguing that Ashes target audience is only L2 players.
But, Intrepid is not really trying to entice PvE EQ/WoW Solo players.
You are not the proof of anything. You have interest in a game that heavily favors Group play over Solo play.
Everyone here understands that. But...
Ashes has a very niche audience.
Ashes is not made for everyone.
---Steven
You can have friends with you in the game and all still be playing Solo.
MMO doesn't mean always joined together in a Group.
Ashes has some Solo content.
But, encounters are balanced for an 8-person Group with one of each Primary Archetype.
And Stevens primary goal/purpose for the game is 500 v 500 PvP battles.
As I've said, it's important, that the invested time is respected from the game, therefore from the developers. If casuals (and/or solo-players) get their rewards, everything ist fine. It's a pointless discussion, except your are in the meaning, that casuals or solo-players shouldn't get something because they are... casuals and solo-players. In this case a discussion is worth it, because I see this completely differet. If a player invests his time, he should get a reward.
This is exactly what I've said - but 6 month are of course way to long.
Artificial example: A pvx open world raid boss (like firebrand) drops a legendary sword (name it like you wish). In Ashes few items, or no items, will be soulbound. So, it's tradeble or the player that gets it can seel it at the auction house. Here meaningfull rewarding solo-content comes in place. The solo player can do stuff to increase his gold/glint/coins/whatsoever, by questing, gathering (and selling it), crafting (and selling crafted items) to be in a position to go to the auction house buying that legendary sword, because he is not attending open world raids that perhaps take 4-5 hours (onyl example) if pvp fights are occuring. This is a reasonable cycle, this Ashes must provide, that also a casual player experiences character progress - here gear-wise. He will of course need more time for that, but in the end, he will have his (gear) reward. That's important, that's the carrot, that's needed, otherwise a lot of players will leave the game soon.
Or, to say in in other words: Like every solid MMO out there is doing it (except GW2, see below, that's a different approach, but some players like it)
Well again, you are wrong, which is again just due to lack of experience. In PvE, you are right. In PvP that's untrue. Only pvp cowards like the fact that they are just stronger because they have better gear, lol. Every serious pvp player knows, that the only real challenge is, to beat somebody which equals in gear and skill. This is right and essential in small scale pvp but also valid in large scale pvp, because overgeared zerg-guilds otherwise will dominate everything to hard and to fast.
Just take Guild Wars 2 as completely different example: There is no hard gear-progression. If you reach max level and invest some time, you are at the top. If you do a break for 3 month, you are still. Nobody else is at better gear or if only with a very small percentage. If you join PvP fights like sPvP in GW2, all players get the same gear at start. There is not gear-difference. So, what to say - I would propose that you collect some experience from the market and the several MMOs out there to get on the same level for our discussion.
That's a good thing, otherwise developers can handle this with mechanics, time-gating for instance. That's also done in other MMOs that the community is not separated too much, because it decreases the overall health of the game. And, it will make the game to easy for no-lifers, because they will roll-over other players by facerolling their keyboard, which is not fun at all, but boring.
They acutally changed nothing.
Steven is obsessed with constant competition, Risk v Reward and massive PvP battles.
And the Ashes target audience is MMORPG fans who love constant competition, Risk v Reward and massive PvP battles.
Players who don't love all that will probably end up playing some other MMO.
Steven used to say that MMORPGs need all player types - when Jeffrey Bard was still Lead Game Designer.
The last two years, as the game design has become more niche with the absence of Jeffrey, Steven has been frequently saying, "We always said that Ashes is not made for everyone. And we're OK with that."
And yes, I also hope there are enough players. I dont care which player type, I only care that its a mature community. Its the most important. Mature, friendly, supporting. This is the most important aspect for a long living MMO. Fun content, progression and no degression, content offer in PvP and PvE for everybody and a mature community.
There is always a choice. Whether you choose to choose a choice that was presented or not is entirely up to you.
Hell choosing to log in or not is a choice.
The fact the flagging system is the was it is was a choice made by Intrepid.
I dunno what you think "mature" means.
This game is targeted at OW PvPers with a heavy focus on Risk v Reward and massive PvP Sieges and Wars.
I would not expect the gameplay to be "mature" especially with all the trash-talking I've seen the devs doing while they play games. I expect the gamers who play Ashes to be ruthless, rather than friendly and supporting.
Outside of the game, the people here mostly tend to be mature, friendly, supporting. Yes.
While playing the game, their player characters will be highly competitive, combative, conniving and ruthless... and mostly focused on PvP, looting and massive PvP Sieges, Wars and Caravan Raids.
What did you just say that should inspire any sort of change in Ashes's design directive or that you think I would disagree with?
Ignoring everything I said about allying with others and supporting others to reach the same strength as those overgeared meanies.
Also ignoring everything I've said about the fact that this is the whole point of the genre. Otherwise, again, why not just go play an arena battle game? Why be interested in a game with any amount of sandbox elements, if you strictly want fully organised, perfectly balanced themepark rides?
Again, then why make players farm equipment at all? That sounds like a completely pointless time sink, if all you do is farm gear to qualify to be able to do other stuff. How is THAT not disrespectful of the player's time?
The whole point of competition for resources is that some people can get more and better resources than others. [Resources here includes crafting materials and rarer, stronger equipment.]
Then you can attempt to still beat those people by outskilling them despite their advantage, or you can ally up with other people who invest as much time and effort as those opponents, so you can keep up with them and use your skill to lead your allies to victory using their resources.
By comparison to that interactive power dynamic with decisionmaking with depth, the Guild Wars game loop seems even more soulless and meaningless than WoW or ESO, which says quite a lot.
That's not the point, especially not in this thread, where it's all about the the question and concerns: Will solo players be able to play meaningful content?
And you are permanently ignoring that the market of MMO genres changed. I'm not sure why you think a MMO is like it was 20 years ago. Because they are not. No one single MMO out there. And that's because the market (players) changed, and so the games. Sure, you can build a mobile phone which is no smart phone, but that doesnt' mean that that's a good decision or mobile design nowaydays. Combining features and set them to a new level, yes, that's success. So, if a MMO wants to be a good one, it should combine solo- and group content. And Ashes is promising this, as it is promising PvE and PvP content all the time. Developer speech and wiki quotes are full with this information, so confirming it.
Playing solo has - again... - nothing to do with the situation, that this player is also playing group content or within guilds. Seriously, nothing. It's all about: Can a solo player play solo because there is a) meaningful content for it and b) meaningful rewards respecting his invested time. That's all about it, and solid and good MMOs adress both of it, because the markets demands it.
Because it's a completely different game/genre missing several other MMO parts. Balanced/structured pvp is one important part of a solid MMO, but not the only one. There also must be meaningful solo-content for all those types of players, that are doing some group and some solo stuff. It's just a wet dream that every player always will play within groups or 40man raids all the time. It's untrue, this will not happen.
Ashes is combinging sandbox and themepark, nodes for instance are excaclty designed for this purpose.
So, the players are not interested in your "sandbox" elements, but themepark elements or something in between. The market for "sandbox" only is just too small and not succesful.
Steven knows that:
Because of character progression. Many MMOs address gear-progression as character progression. Not all MMOs/games are doing this. GW2 is one example.
The more interesting question is, again: Why should a serious pvp player even think about being the better player or getting fun out of it just because he facerolls over other players just because of his better gear?
In Ashes there will be arena pvp gameplay. That's were you can be a hero, not in owpvp facerolling in 40man-raids over 15 other players running around.
If this is the aspect some players are gathering their fun than it's their personal attitude and (quite) chlidish behavior, why should this be the main goal and focus of any MMO or PvX game that is adresses to an aged, mature community, so MMO veterans, searching for a game that combines good feature of other MMOs out there - which is promised from Ashes on different levels and for several features. It's not an pvp only game, that's just untrue.
It's the MOST respectful approach if invested time leads to better gear, independent from what content is played and how this content is played. If gear-progression is within game-design (the carrot, so not like GW2, where the carrot is better looking gear, but not better gear stat/attribute-wise), than that's the only respect the game can provide to the player. Its of course not respectful if a player plays 6 months getting nothing or not enough rewarding stuff. That's pointless then, because why should he even play?
You are obviously mixing things up. There is the question about the carrot and the character progression. And there is the topic about balanced, serious and structured pvp. If you mix those things up, it's of course a mess.
More gear is qualifying you for more content, this is the common approach and it's working well. Again, one expection (GW2) is proving this rule.
Sure, that's why it's important that also solo players can gather ressources to get character- and gear-progression. Why should they pick up even one flower, if they will not get a profit and reward out of it later on?
No, that's just because your lack of imagination that a MMO also works without gear-progression in the known / old-fashioned way, instead of having played GW1 or 2, like me, getting the experience (and I've also played the for sure not soulless and meaningless WoW) that this is also working and is perfect especially for players that don't like the FOMO-factor. If you stop playing GW2 for 2 month and come back you still are in a position to play together with everybody else, because the gear-difference is low or not existing, but other players maybe will have that cooler fire sword effect or better looking armor, because you can increase your style/cosmetics, but not you stats/attribute (you can, but with minor increases). That's important because quality and skill counts, not "I've played 15h a day and that's why I'm the virutal pvp hero". That's childish and crap, of course, so it respects all players, not only the frequent players (that sometimes define themselves around their virtual ingame achievements, which is sad enough ofc).
So, if you like being better than others because you've invested more time before and therefore you can facerool over other players, then that's only your personal access and attitude to this aspect of balanced pvp. For me it's the most boring thing to fight against other players that are lower in gear or skill.
You know the first pillar of Ashes? Do you?
1. Engaging and immersive story.
You know that is is not played in 40 main raids, right? You know that this highly likely will not be played within pvp-content? It's the first design pillar of the game. That's all about high fantasy with races, classes, story, lore, roleplaying (it's an MMORPG) and much more. This, first pillar, is by fact attracting also or especially solo players. But that's not the only aspect.
And Ashes wants solo players and needs casual players.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Solo_players
We just don't know yet, if the designs and rewards fit to that promise. And that's the reason of this entire thread. There is no need to answer with "but play in groups", because that's known and clear, but not the topic. The topic is: Is there meaningful solo content, as promised, that will reward the players and respect their investet time, not only a lot of time and only by playing group- or raid content.
Is there meaningful content for Summoners, as promised?
Is there meaningful content for Religions and Social Orgs, as promised?
Summoners? Sure, or rogue. Fine class discussions, why not?
Not sure what's your intention to ask such questions.
This thread is about concerns regarding solo-content and solo-players. If that's not interesting for you, nobody forces you to step in.
If there would be a rogue thread, I would step in, because I like the rogue class in MMOs. It's fully without relevance whether the rogue is just showing up in late Alpha (which seems to be the situation) or not, it's all about sharing opinions and discuss topics about the game itself, not the Alpha 2 or whatever development stage.
GW 2 sucks for a lot of reasons.
Piss poor class design being chief among them.
A day one noob competing with someone that has been there since day one ...... Really you call that good ?
Why stay if the best you can ever hope for is a new look?
Homogenized classes and world is super boring to me. Level scaling so no matter what you do it is all the same is really bad design. IMO. Lots of people like the complete lack of challenge that single player games like GW2 provide and that is ok.
I think it is highly disrespectful of the players to ask them to play a game where no matter what they do it is all the same challenge level.
I started playing GW1 . It was my first MMO was ok as a starter point but I put grew it.
Played GW2 for two weeks and tried really hard to like it not understanding why I didn't until I understood nothing mattered. Just a bunch of shaved cats running in circles throwing flaming poo at a loot pinata or each other.
I uninstalled and moved on.
Sure. People will also be pissed if Summoner and Rogue don't make it into the release as promised.
This is where Ashes of Creation (AoC) could really set itself apart from other games—the promise of diverse classes and the ability to choose a role or class that fits your unique playstyle. It would also be great to have classes that can be flexible, allowing players to switch between melee or ranged combat, or even adopt a hybrid style. Also, I’m not talking about class-specific roles here, but rather dynamic gameplay mechanics that allow players to adapt and evolve their strategies. Taking that away would be a huge loss. In a landscape full of generic MMOs that lack meaningful class diversity, it’s refreshing to see a game embrace that approach. I prefer allowing players to play how they want and craft their own gameplay experience, rather than sticking to outdated, rigid systems.
Trinity game play is pretty much the very definition of the above, I'm not sure how diverse an 8x8 class system can get with this restriction; this doesn't mean the game won't be fun anyway (which it should be given all the other gameplay mechanics on tap).
I disagree.
The notion of a trinity (or simiar system) is kind of just how things work. The basics of a trinity (or similar system) can be reduced to the notion that everyone has a specific role to play in order to achieve a collective outcome. Once you understand that this is all a trinity (or similar system) is, you will realise that it can be found in game genres as divers as FPS and 4X games. It is present in many RTS games (or was when I played them), it is is in games like the XCom series (original and remake). It is even present in team sports such as football (regardless of which game you consider to be football), even water polo.
Saying that the notion of trinity gameplay is what has made MMO's generic makes about as much sense as claiming that they are generic because they are all real time as opposed to turn based. Splitting people off in to specific tasks is just how working together generally works - and this will result in a trinity system when it comes to combat in a game if there is a meaningful ability to draw enemy attention, deal damage to those enemies, and also heal allies.
If these three things exist, a trinity system will be formed out of them.
I can see how you may want to say that it is the implementation of the system that is causing generic MMO's, but I can't really see how you can blame the notion of working together (a trinity system).
I am well aware.
No.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)