I do not understand why you are trying in every possible way to limit the pk players? They are the same players, they are looking for fun, for them the penalty system works anyway. If you don't want to get stunned or slowed, buy/make protection from going through negative effects. My experience of playing mmo started with l2 in 2006, before that I was not interested in this genre. I still remember all those emotions that I got when we tried to get out of the city and catch the player's pk, I remember how he killed me and I got angry, I said, wait, I'll grow up and kick your ass, I remember how we teleported to others high-level towns and asked us to help catch the pk.I remember how we caught him and everyone had fun. And then when they caught up, they just laughed and joked about him. I remember when we created our clan and tried to raise it to the level, we ran around the area and looked for some things, and then we noticed a high level of pk in the distance and we ran away from him with the whole clan, shouting curses at him, and he ran after us and also cursed xD. I remember being a pk myself, how a mob of noobs hunted me. I remember we fought against the pc clan and it was a damn good battle. And there were a lot of great memories related to the pk system that I can tell. After all, it is precisely such moments that you will remember, and not how you killed 1000 mobs in safety. What are you worried about? For the numbers of lost experience or for the virtual things that you drop? Vivid memories are much more important.
Damn, this testemony gives me the teary eyes!
Beautiful testemony!
Same thing as me:
in Ultima Onlihe there was a time I ran Bucaneer's Den as a PK and 10-20 people visited me for fights
in WoW, I had most of my best PvP memories around Booty Bay, where everybody could fight even inside the city
in EVE, it was ganking haulers and miners, also when running kill rights (hunting criminals when they weren't in criminal timer anymore)
It is kinda crazy that Steven brought the corruption system to avoid excessive PK, but then there's node destruction where you lose 100% of all your shit
I can just wonder the shock people will feel while not being prepared to sustain losses early on
HAHAAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAH
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
I do not understand why you are trying in every possible way to limit the pk players? They are the same players, they are looking for fun, for them the penalty system works anyway. If you don't want to get stunned or slowed, buy/make protection from going through negative effects. My experience of playing mmo started with l2 in 2006, before that I was not interested in this genre. I still remember all those emotions that I got when we tried to get out of the city and catch the player's pk, I remember how he killed me and I got angry, I said, wait, I'll grow up and kick your ass, I remember how we teleported to others high-level towns and asked us to help catch the pk.I remember how we caught him and everyone had fun. And then when they caught up, they just laughed and joked about him. I remember when we created our clan and tried to raise it to the level, we ran around the area and looked for some things, and then we noticed a high level of pk in the distance and we ran away from him with the whole clan, shouting curses at him, and he ran after us and also cursed xD. I remember being a pk myself, how a mob of noobs hunted me. I remember we fought against the pc clan and it was a damn good battle. And there were a lot of great memories related to the pk system that I can tell. After all, it is precisely such moments that you will remember, and not how you killed 1000 mobs in safety. What are you worried about? For the numbers of lost experience or for the virtual things that you drop? Vivid memories are much more important.
Damn, this testemony gives me the teary eyes!
Beautiful testemony!
Same thing as me:
in Ultima Onlihe there was a time I ran Bucaneer's Den as a PK and 10-20 people visited me for fights
in WoW, I had most of my best PvP memories around Booty Bay, where everybody could fight even inside the city
in EVE, it was ganking haulers and miners, also when running kill rights (hunting criminals when they weren't in criminal timer anymore)
It is kinda crazy that Steven brought the corruption system to avoid excessive PK, but then there's node destruction where you lose 100% of all your shit
I can just wonder the shock people will feel while not being prepared to sustain losses early on
HAHAAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAH
yep and the worst part is the corruption system as it stands almost prevents pking being even possible, for starters no one is going to risk equip gear to pk someone its just not worth it, secondly the fact that corruption has to be worked off and doesnt just tick down on a timer like you gain a 5 minute flag for killing someone is ridiculous too i know this enables bounty hunters but come on.. and then on top of that making it so the people being ganked have the advantage of not being stunned, etc etc, the whole system needs a re work, but as usual these suggestions just go in the no changes folder, and never addressed in AMAs or livestreams
They really need to add a poll feature to the forum and announce important polls in the livestream to get some data on peoples opinion, ideally filtered by status of that players (member, active since Alpha 1, Kickstarter and so on).
That would be a reasonable allocation to put the marketing funds to use now, understand what their future player base is currently expecting and then address it in the next stream.
@Chicago there you go, some people around here understand what I am talking about!
Because the corruption system is a dangerous design choice, the devs will keep applying band-aids over band-aids and then all band-aids will all be pulled out when people lose everything they have in a siege
So, in the end of the day, will corruption protect people and player retention?
For sure it will protect against over pk and that only
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
They really need to add a poll feature to the forum and announce important polls in the livestream to get some data on peoples opinion, ideally filtered by status of that players (member, active since Alpha 1, Kickstarter and so on).
That would be a reasonable allocation to put the marketing funds to use now, understand what their future player base is currently expecting and then address it in the next stream.
yep, in all honesty i think that the systems at this stage of development should be finished and just being tweaked, i dont think we should be even discussing adding anything new to the game until we get patches or alpha 2 etc, anything discussed in the livestreams should be updates on systems we already know about for example, caravans,nodes,character creator, naval content, sub classes, class reviews ( rogue bard etc ), i dont think 7 years into development we should even be having the discussion of '' is this a good idea '' or '' maybe we will add this to the game '', just polls on current systems, make changes to things that are already developed
They really need to add a poll feature to the forum and announce important polls in the livestream to get some data on peoples opinion, ideally filtered by status of that players (member, active since Alpha 1, Kickstarter and so on).
That would be a reasonable allocation to put the marketing funds to use now, understand what their future player base is currently expecting and then address it in the next stream.
I agree with you on this
Also, I think Intrepid could showcase options, option A, option B, etc in the stream, then make a poll about it
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
@Chicago there you go, some people around here understand what I am talking about!
Because the corruption system is a dangerous design choice, the devs will keep applying band-aids over band-aids and then all band-aids will all be pulled out when people lose everything they have in a siege
So, in the end of the day, will corruption protect people and player retention?
For sure it will protect against over pk and that only
tbh i just see seiges as pve lol, my best experiences in pvp were roaming around with a group of friends maybe 3 or 4 looking for other groups doing the same thing and having little small scale fights in the open world, i dont want to have to worry about dropping my weapon or armor or not being able to do this, structured pvp is fine but not when its the only option, there is no risk to even going into the world
@Chicago check this shit, instead of having the actual corrution, what if:
since it's a high fantasy MMO, players could be allowed to attune themselves with a place, so you would be allowed to teleport to that place....
if you are very close to the place, then the teleport cooldown would be very fast
but if you travel too far away, like travelling to another region... then the cooldown would be huge... maybe 8-12 hours
if you were in another continent, then you wouldnt be able to teleport at all
just took this idea out of my arse and this is better than the actual corruption. It also helps PvE people to prepare against atackers, plan their travelling and understand risk-reward better
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
yep, in all honesty i think that the systems at this stage of development should be finished and just being tweaked, i dont think we should be even discussing adding anything new to the game until we get patches or alpha 2 etc, anything discussed in the livestreams should be updates on systems we already know about for example, caravans,nodes,character creator, naval content, sub classes, class reviews ( rogue bard etc ), i dont think 7 years into development we should even be having the discussion of '' is this a good idea '' or '' maybe we will add this to the game '', just polls on current systems, make changes to things that are already developed
I would agree in so far that this would be the best case scenario, to have a fully finished design plan, even with core details of the subsystems and then have a working feedback system for the community to respond to these aspects while they are being implemented / presented.
However, I honestly think that is too much to ask from Intrepid. I still think of them as a studio that only recently promoted out of its "junior" status. I hope this means that they will be getting their, but honestly, I don't think we will see a crisp open production process for the game before A2. For the adjustments made until B1... maybe, but not before I don't think that's possible for them given the amount of pressure to finish the up on the systems. And as far as I know they are still not fully staffed, which is a huge factor.
With all that being said, while the process is far from ideal, I am fairly optimistic overall for regarding the quality of what Intrepid is building here. Including the corruption system. If it turns out that the details they added later are discouraging non objective based PvP too much, I don't think that Steven or anyone will insist on keeping the thumb screwed tight, they will loosen in such a case. After all the game changes will not happen if the incentives are skewed into either direction. And with (according to my own rough calculation) approximately 300k active players necessary to run this game successfully, I suspect there is no need to cater to Unreal Tournament level PvP players nor to those who accidentally stumbled into Ashes of Creation thinking was a nicer looking version of Animal Crossing.
My suspicion is they are just trying to keep their head low this year, trying to finish up on the core systems as much as possible so that they can make some sort of mayor announcement by the end of the year. Which is far from ideal a plan but I am optimistic they are not blindly aiming to suck up to a particular player base to the detriment of the games quality. My hopes for PvE-PvP balance adjustments are firmly on Alpha 2 I think beforehand we won't get much more feedback requests on systems than we are already getting.
And again - I'm not against PvP, nor against PvE, just trying to make the case that both require specific circumstances to work in the context of what we can assume to be already solidified decisions and how within this frame the game can be fun to play.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just because you disagree with someone's opinion, doesn't mean you're inherently right and they're inherently wrong.
You're free to disagree with the opinions of others but remember to be well unto one another! ^_^
Damn, this testemony gives me the teary eyes!
Beautiful testemony!
Yeah, a beautiful testimony from a game that had pretty much the same corruption system that you dislike. The only CCs that work against "greens" were ones with an attack attribute on them, which were usually only full stuns, that led to the exact abuse of "stun a dude that's fighting mobs and let the mobs finish him off, so that you don't get corruption". Steven wants to avoid that abuse, which is why CCs don't work on greens.
What a pointless classification. Ashes is a sandbox, and it has a vital aspect in common with other existing sandboxes like Runescape, Albion, Eve, which is the ability to meaningfully progress your account through many routes instead of being forced down one main pathway (usually) by story elements. While AoC has story elements, they seem to be optional progression routes rather than mandatory narrative structures upon which your playstyle and progression pathway pivots.
Using the shaky definitions of themebox or sandpark to describe an MMO that mixes choice and narrative control would make both terms apply to every MMO and therefore render them meaningless. WoW is at heart a themepark. Just because you can gather resources and ERP on the side doesn't make it a themebox.
It is kinda crazy that Steven brought the corruption system to avoid excessive PK, but then there's node destruction where you lose 100% of all your shit
What is crazy about it?
Ashes has open PvP where players potentially stand to lose, with the corruption system as a regulator on that.
Ashes also has destruction of towns and cities, with time restrictions on how often it can happen.
The average player will lose far more to corruption based PvP than they ever will to siege destruction, if for no other reason than as well as having that regulation via cooldown, sieges also have a large cost to the attacker.
The only thing missing in this is the regulator on caravans - I still expect to see some form of regulation there.
What a pointless classification. Ashes is a sandbox, and it has a vital aspect in common with other existing sandboxes like Runescape, Albion, Eve, which is the ability to meaningfully progress your account through many routes instead of being forced down one main pathway (usually) by story elements. While AoC has story elements, they seem to be optional progression routes rather than mandatory narrative structures upon which your playstyle and progression pathway pivots.
We've got no real idea what they wanna do with the story and how they want to present it to us. There's still a possibility that we'll have a very direct progression path through the story. Hell, we already know that majority of instanced dungeons will be about the story and that 1/5 of all dungeons are instanced, so unless there's like 5 dungeons, I'd assume that's gonna be a long damn story.
What a pointless classification. Ashes is a sandbox, and it has a vital aspect in common with other existing sandboxes like Runescape, Albion, Eve, which is the ability to meaningfully progress your account through many routes instead of being forced down one main pathway (usually) by story elements. While AoC has story elements, they seem to be optional progression routes rather than mandatory narrative structures upon which your playstyle and progression pathway pivots.
We've got no real idea what they wanna do with the story and how they want to present it to us. There's still a possibility that we'll have a very direct progression path through the story. Hell, we already know that majority of instanced dungeons will be about the story and that 1/5 of all dungeons are instanced, so unless there's like 5 dungeons, I'd assume that's gonna be a long damn story.
That doesn't really connect to Clint's point, though?
The claim was that we would probably be able to ignore the story if desired without losing out on much progression-wise.
That's what I'm used to, mostly, isn't that how your MMOs work too?
id like to see what everyone's opinions are on this topic, as this is a forum for feedback etc here is mine,
i understand there needs to be measurements in place to prevent constant ganking, however the corruption system is already extremely heavy as it is, i think making it so greens cant be CCd is not a good idea at all, preventing you from using your tool kit and abilities makes no sense at all and even further how would this tie into any lore whatso ever, it is an open world sandbox style game so things like this should not be prevented, obviously i may be biased as i am planning on doing alot of pvp but this is just my opinion and i would like to hear yours!
I would want you to be able to be knocked off your mount from a CC ability, but not CC'd while you're dismounted.
The reasoning being that if you're mounted you can too easily evade PvP and mobs. I think gameplay surrounding being able to breeze past other people on a mount isn't a good idea.
That doesn't really connect to Clint's point, though?
The claim was that we would probably be able to ignore the story if desired without losing out on much progression-wise.
That's what I'm used to, mostly, isn't that how your MMOs work too?
Well, yeah, my experience is barely any real story and progression that's completely outside of anything that's related to the story. But L2 is pretty much a sandbox when it comes to that.
But isn't the whole point of the "themebox" marketing that we'll have more of a story-centered gameplay? Obviously that might be false marketing, but we wouldn't know that until we're way later in testing, if at all.
Dygz is kinda right, but the crowd couldn't understand what he said!
People should try to understand what Dygz was trying to say, maybe he is saying this because he can't see enough sand in this sandbox, but it there is still a tiny bit of sand tough.
This happens because people identify as sand different elements in a game, for example the ability of building customizable houses, changing the landscape, building vehicles/ships, building stuff that are truly unique, etc. So, this kind of sand doesn't even exist in AoC, this is true.
But it still has some sand, since there's no goals, its open-world and there's player social organizations. I know it's not the biggest amount of sand, it's very little sand.
What AoC truly is: It is an open world dynamic themebox, it is a truly true dynamic world, one of the most dynamic worlds ever built... but it's not a sandbox even tough there is a small amount of sand in this. AoC is a hybrid game... a sandboxy-ish dynamic themebox?
Here is the proof:
The main promise of Ashes is a dynamic world that changes in reaction to player activity within the game world, with cities that rise and fall, quests that appear, disappear, and move about, all based on what the players are doing. It's tempting to characterize Ashes as a sandbox based on that level of player agency alone, but I'm curious - what type of MMO do you consider Ashes of Creation to be?
Honestly, I am hesitant to call Ashes a Sandbox. Not because of what Sandbox is supposed to mean, but rather because of how studios have developed “Sandboxes” over the past decade. You see, many developers have used the sandbox concept as an excuse to cut a lot of curated content, in exchange for gimmicky mechanics that allow for player-generated content. In Ashes, we have the opposite approach in development. In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take. I like to compare our design philosophy, to that of a “Choose your own adventure” book. Our story is Epic, and you have the ability to be an integral part of that story. Dictating the outcome, in a meaningful way. - Steven Sharif
In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take.[2] – Steven Sharif
As always, most people were wrong.
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
That doesn't really connect to Clint's point, though?
The claim was that we would probably be able to ignore the story if desired without losing out on much progression-wise.
That's what I'm used to, mostly, isn't that how your MMOs work too?
Well, yeah, my experience is barely any real story and progression that's completely outside of anything that's related to the story. But L2 is pretty much a sandbox when it comes to that.
But isn't the whole point of the "themebox" marketing that we'll have more of a story-centered gameplay? Obviously that might be false marketing, but we wouldn't know that until we're way later in testing, if at all.
Well hopefully without derailing the thread I'll give my experience, as usual.
FFXI story has 3 core progression paths and then 1 additional one per expansion (technically it's just 1 for expansion in all cases depending on what you count the base game as).
You could engage with them at any point, or ignore them entirely and only lose out on a few things. Some had strong enough incentives that you'd do them eventually for your own convenience, others you could just never touch at all unless you wanted some non-defining gear piece.
But they were there, as structure, they gave the world a basis for anyone who wanted to adventure, and you could get your group together for just 'going through the story', with breaks to level. Overleveling didn't really affect much for the first few years because the instanced battlefields would cap your level to whatever would be challenging (forced socialization since very few level 30 characters can solo the level 30 cap mission).
I don't really know what people mean by 'story centered gameplay' or not, therefore. I know 'I could do this, it gives me the option of a goal, and I can also ignore it'.
And, to tie that back, I guess, it would actually be reasonable/fair for a Sandbox game to never let you be safe because the Story is minimal or personal and there is no targeted progression path that you can just be 'locked out of', whereas this type would need some protections to stop the psychos from 'sitting at the entrance point to the Level 30 cap mission and slaughtering any group who approach wanting to enter the instance'.
if the player's can't escape the narrative of "this is this, that is that, this faction is this, that faction is that, this world is this" etc.... then the chances that the themebox aspect being really strong is real
a sandbox in it's purest form, people would be able to build anything they want and tell any story they want
What is AoC then?
Maybe a mix... but certainly it is more of a themebox than a sandbox
i'll give 90% themebox and 10% sandbox
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
well, Dygz was being bullied by the majority, I had to stand up for him, because he is right
people are delusional about their own expectations about AoC since it is not a sandbox at all. AoC is closer to being a "medieval fantasy Mad Max" than Minecraft
Which game AoC is closer to?
Counter-Strike or Minecraft
closer to Counter-Strike
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
if the player's can't escape the narrative of "this is this, that is that, this faction is this, that faction is that, this world is this" etc.... then the chances that the themebox aspect being really strong is real
a sandbox in it's purest form, people would be able to build anything they want and tell any story they want
What is AoC then?
Maybe a mix... but certainly it is more of a themebox than a sandbox
i'll give 90% themebox and 10% sandbox
Dude. Stop bullshitting when you dont know what is being said. Honestly.
The two terms for MMO's are themepark and sandbox.
Themebox is already a portmanteau of the two terms.
if the player's can't escape the narrative of "this is this, that is that, this faction is this, that faction is that, this world is this" etc.... then the chances that the themebox aspect being really strong is real
a sandbox in it's purest form, people would be able to build anything they want and tell any story they want
What is AoC then?
Maybe a mix... but certainly it is more of a themebox than a sandbox
i'll give 90% themebox and 10% sandbox
Dude. Stop bullshitting when you dont know what is being said. Honestly.
The two terms for MMO's are themepark and sandbox.
Themebox is already a portmanteau of the two terms.
Oh, it's that guy who I blocked months ago, as always being super aggressive.
"A sandbox does allow players to play how they want within the limits of the game's systems. But a sandbox does not always offer the benefits and thrill-ride of a themepark. A themepark might offer some taste of the sandbox's freedom but in general blocks content and growth with level or class requirements. Only when you truly mix the two will you have an MMO from this third category."
AoC is the third kind, clearly a hybrid, but a themebox which is mostly a themepark
Themepark: everything about that world, story and content is developed for you to play a specific way. Players can create content within certain limits. The lore is consistent and demands more work from the devs
Sandbox: World, content and features are developed for players to create their own game. Unlimited content creation, people make up stuff. Sandboxes allow developers to be lazy about the lore
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
if the player's can't escape the narrative of "this is this, that is that, this faction is this, that faction is that, this world is this" etc.... then the chances that the themebox aspect being really strong is real
a sandbox in it's purest form, people would be able to build anything they want and tell any story they want
What is AoC then?
Maybe a mix... but certainly it is more of a themebox than a sandbox
i'll give 90% themebox and 10% sandbox
Dude. Stop bullshitting when you dont know what is being said. Honestly.
The two terms for MMO's are themepark and sandbox.
Themebox is already a portmanteau of the two terms.
Oh, it's that guy who I blocked months ago, as always being super aggressive.
I call out bullshit literally every time I see it on these forums.
If you think I am always being super aggressive, that must be because I am always calling out bullshit you spurt.
The appropriate remedy to that is for you to stop spurting out so much bullshit.
As an example, if you blocked me, you wouldnt have been able to read or quote the above post.
AoC is the third kind, clearly a hybrid, but mostly a themebox in the sense of being mostly a themepark
Themepark: everything about that world, story and content is developed for you to play a specific way. Players can create content within certain limits. The lore is consistent and demands more work from the devs
Sandbox: World, content and features are developed for players to create their own game. Unlimited content creation, people make up stuff. Sandboxes allow developers to be lazy about the lore
The above is all somewhat correct (or at least an opinion that is valid).
However, it is not what you said above.
What you are saying in this most recent post is that Ashes is part sandbox, but mostly themepark. This is fine, and the portmanteau that has been applied to it for years (including from Steven) is that Ashes is a themebox game.
This is what Dygz originally said.
However, the post I called you out on, you attempted to say that Ashes was 90% themebox and 10% sandbox.
Do you see the difference there?
Hey, maybe it was an honest mistake. That's fine- but when someone calls you out on an honest mistake, just own it.
On the other hand, maybe it was bullshit. This is my take, as you spurting such bullshit is on brand for you. In that case, when you are spurting bullshit - and a small part of you will always know when you are spurting said bullshit - and someone calls you on it, dont try and make up for it by spurting more bullshit like the above post. That person has already shown that they can see right through your bullshit, more bullshit is just going to get you in deeper.
if the player's can't escape the narrative of "this is this, that is that, this faction is this, that faction is that, this world is this" etc.... then the chances that the themebox aspect being really strong is real
a sandbox in it's purest form, people would be able to build anything they want and tell any story they want
What is AoC then?
Maybe a mix... but certainly it is more of a themebox than a sandbox
i'll give 90% themebox and 10% sandbox
Dude. Stop bullshitting when you dont know what is being said. Honestly.
The two terms for MMO's are themepark and sandbox.
Themebox is already a portmanteau of the two terms.
Oh, it's that guy who I blocked months ago, as always being super aggressive.
I call out bullshit literally every time I see it on these forums.
If you think I am always being super aggressive, that must be because I am always calling out bullshit you spurt.
The appropriate remedy to that is for you to stop spurting out so much bullshit.
As an example, if you blocked me, you wouldnt have been able to read or quote the above post.
AoC is the third kind, clearly a hybrid, but mostly a themebox in the sense of being mostly a themepark
Themepark: everything about that world, story and content is developed for you to play a specific way. Players can create content within certain limits. The lore is consistent and demands more work from the devs
Sandbox: World, content and features are developed for players to create their own game. Unlimited content creation, people make up stuff. Sandboxes allow developers to be lazy about the lore
The above is all somewhat correct (or at least an opinion that is valid).
However, it is not what you said above.
What you are saying in this most recent post is that Ashes is part sandbox, but mostly themepark. This is fine, and the portmanteau that has been applied to it for years (including from Steven) is that Ashes is a themebox game.
This is what Dygz originally said.
However, the post I called you out on, you attempted to say that Ashes was 90% themebox and 10% sandbox.
Do you see the difference there?
Hey, maybe it was an honest mistake. That's fine- but when someone calls you out on an honest mistake, just own it.
On the other hand, maybe it was bullshit. This is my take, as you spurting such bullshit is on brand for you. In that case, when you are spurting bullshit - and a small part of you will always know when you are spurting said bullshit - and someone calls you on it, dont try and make up for it by spurting more bullshit like the above post. That person has already shown that they can see right through your bullshit, more bullshit is just going to get you in deeper.
@Noaani yeap, I blocked you a long time ago, but blocking only shrinks your comments, if i click your nickname then it expands the comment. This is ok, so I only expand your comments if I am in the mood. Try blocking someone and refresh the page
Anyway, I tripple checked what AoC really is, I even read the posts about this since 2017
AoC is a themebox, balanced mostly in the themepark genre than being sandbox. It is important adressing this because I have seen too many people saying AoC is a sandbox
In fact, even in other sites, other forums, videos, there's quite a lot of people calling it sandbox over and over
edit: I blocked you mostly because you treat other people like trash, not just me, so I don't like reading all those comments attacking everybody else... it's just bad vibes
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Comments
Damn, this testemony gives me the teary eyes!
Beautiful testemony!
Same thing as me:
It is kinda crazy that Steven brought the corruption system to avoid excessive PK, but then there's node destruction where you lose 100% of all your shit
I can just wonder the shock people will feel while not being prepared to sustain losses early on
HAHAAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAH
yep and the worst part is the corruption system as it stands almost prevents pking being even possible, for starters no one is going to risk equip gear to pk someone its just not worth it, secondly the fact that corruption has to be worked off and doesnt just tick down on a timer like you gain a 5 minute flag for killing someone is ridiculous too i know this enables bounty hunters but come on.. and then on top of that making it so the people being ganked have the advantage of not being stunned, etc etc, the whole system needs a re work, but as usual these suggestions just go in the no changes folder, and never addressed in AMAs or livestreams
That would be a reasonable allocation to put the marketing funds to use now, understand what their future player base is currently expecting and then address it in the next stream.
Because the corruption system is a dangerous design choice, the devs will keep applying band-aids over band-aids and then all band-aids will all be pulled out when people lose everything they have in a siege
So, in the end of the day, will corruption protect people and player retention?
For sure it will protect against over pk and that only
yep, in all honesty i think that the systems at this stage of development should be finished and just being tweaked, i dont think we should be even discussing adding anything new to the game until we get patches or alpha 2 etc, anything discussed in the livestreams should be updates on systems we already know about for example, caravans,nodes,character creator, naval content, sub classes, class reviews ( rogue bard etc ), i dont think 7 years into development we should even be having the discussion of '' is this a good idea '' or '' maybe we will add this to the game '', just polls on current systems, make changes to things that are already developed
I agree with you on this
Also, I think Intrepid could showcase options, option A, option B, etc in the stream, then make a poll about it
tbh i just see seiges as pve lol, my best experiences in pvp were roaming around with a group of friends maybe 3 or 4 looking for other groups doing the same thing and having little small scale fights in the open world, i dont want to have to worry about dropping my weapon or armor or not being able to do this, structured pvp is fine but not when its the only option, there is no risk to even going into the world
since it's a high fantasy MMO, players could be allowed to attune themselves with a place, so you would be allowed to teleport to that place....
just took this idea out of my arse and this is better than the actual corruption. It also helps PvE people to prepare against atackers, plan their travelling and understand risk-reward better
I would agree in so far that this would be the best case scenario, to have a fully finished design plan, even with core details of the subsystems and then have a working feedback system for the community to respond to these aspects while they are being implemented / presented.
However, I honestly think that is too much to ask from Intrepid. I still think of them as a studio that only recently promoted out of its "junior" status. I hope this means that they will be getting their, but honestly, I don't think we will see a crisp open production process for the game before A2. For the adjustments made until B1... maybe, but not before I don't think that's possible for them given the amount of pressure to finish the up on the systems. And as far as I know they are still not fully staffed, which is a huge factor.
With all that being said, while the process is far from ideal, I am fairly optimistic overall for regarding the quality of what Intrepid is building here. Including the corruption system. If it turns out that the details they added later are discouraging non objective based PvP too much, I don't think that Steven or anyone will insist on keeping the thumb screwed tight, they will loosen in such a case. After all the game changes will not happen if the incentives are skewed into either direction. And with (according to my own rough calculation) approximately 300k active players necessary to run this game successfully, I suspect there is no need to cater to Unreal Tournament level PvP players nor to those who accidentally stumbled into Ashes of Creation thinking was a nicer looking version of Animal Crossing.
My suspicion is they are just trying to keep their head low this year, trying to finish up on the core systems as much as possible so that they can make some sort of mayor announcement by the end of the year. Which is far from ideal a plan but I am optimistic they are not blindly aiming to suck up to a particular player base to the detriment of the games quality. My hopes for PvE-PvP balance adjustments are firmly on Alpha 2 I think beforehand we won't get much more feedback requests on systems than we are already getting.
And again - I'm not against PvP, nor against PvE, just trying to make the case that both require specific circumstances to work in the context of what we can assume to be already solidified decisions and how within this frame the game can be fun to play.
You're free to disagree with the opinions of others but remember to be well unto one another! ^_^
What a pointless classification. Ashes is a sandbox, and it has a vital aspect in common with other existing sandboxes like Runescape, Albion, Eve, which is the ability to meaningfully progress your account through many routes instead of being forced down one main pathway (usually) by story elements. While AoC has story elements, they seem to be optional progression routes rather than mandatory narrative structures upon which your playstyle and progression pathway pivots.
Using the shaky definitions of themebox or sandpark to describe an MMO that mixes choice and narrative control would make both terms apply to every MMO and therefore render them meaningless. WoW is at heart a themepark. Just because you can gather resources and ERP on the side doesn't make it a themebox.
Ashes has open PvP where players potentially stand to lose, with the corruption system as a regulator on that.
Ashes also has destruction of towns and cities, with time restrictions on how often it can happen.
The average player will lose far more to corruption based PvP than they ever will to siege destruction, if for no other reason than as well as having that regulation via cooldown, sieges also have a large cost to the attacker.
The only thing missing in this is the regulator on caravans - I still expect to see some form of regulation there.
That doesn't really connect to Clint's point, though?
The claim was that we would probably be able to ignore the story if desired without losing out on much progression-wise.
That's what I'm used to, mostly, isn't that how your MMOs work too?
I would want you to be able to be knocked off your mount from a CC ability, but not CC'd while you're dismounted.
The reasoning being that if you're mounted you can too easily evade PvP and mobs. I think gameplay surrounding being able to breeze past other people on a mount isn't a good idea.
But isn't the whole point of the "themebox" marketing that we'll have more of a story-centered gameplay? Obviously that might be false marketing, but we wouldn't know that until we're way later in testing, if at all.
@ClintHardwood @Chicago
Dygz is kinda right, but the crowd couldn't understand what he said!
People should try to understand what Dygz was trying to say, maybe he is saying this because he can't see enough sand in this sandbox, but it there is still a tiny bit of sand tough.
This happens because people identify as sand different elements in a game, for example the ability of building customizable houses, changing the landscape, building vehicles/ships, building stuff that are truly unique, etc. So, this kind of sand doesn't even exist in AoC, this is true.
But it still has some sand, since there's no goals, its open-world and there's player social organizations. I know it's not the biggest amount of sand, it's very little sand.
What AoC truly is:
It is an open world dynamic themebox, it is a truly true dynamic world, one of the most dynamic worlds ever built... but it's not a sandbox even tough there is a small amount of sand in this. AoC is a hybrid game... a sandboxy-ish dynamic themebox?
Here is the proof:
As always, most people were wrong.
Well hopefully without derailing the thread I'll give my experience, as usual.
FFXI story has 3 core progression paths and then 1 additional one per expansion (technically it's just 1 for expansion in all cases depending on what you count the base game as).
You could engage with them at any point, or ignore them entirely and only lose out on a few things. Some had strong enough incentives that you'd do them eventually for your own convenience, others you could just never touch at all unless you wanted some non-defining gear piece.
But they were there, as structure, they gave the world a basis for anyone who wanted to adventure, and you could get your group together for just 'going through the story', with breaks to level. Overleveling didn't really affect much for the first few years because the instanced battlefields would cap your level to whatever would be challenging (forced socialization since very few level 30 characters can solo the level 30 cap mission).
I don't really know what people mean by 'story centered gameplay' or not, therefore. I know 'I could do this, it gives me the option of a goal, and I can also ignore it'.
And, to tie that back, I guess, it would actually be reasonable/fair for a Sandbox game to never let you be safe because the Story is minimal or personal and there is no targeted progression path that you can just be 'locked out of', whereas this type would need some protections to stop the psychos from 'sitting at the entrance point to the Level 30 cap mission and slaughtering any group who approach wanting to enter the instance'.
a sandbox in it's purest form, people would be able to build anything they want and tell any story they want
What is AoC then?
Maybe a mix... but certainly it is more of a themebox than a sandbox
i'll give 90% themebox and 10% sandbox
That's a statement that has no right to exist!
hahahaha
well, Dygz was being bullied by the majority, I had to stand up for him, because he is right
people are delusional about their own expectations about AoC since it is not a sandbox at all. AoC is closer to being a "medieval fantasy Mad Max" than Minecraft
Which game AoC is closer to?
Counter-Strike or Minecraft
closer to Counter-Strike
Dude. Stop bullshitting when you dont know what is being said. Honestly.
The two terms for MMO's are themepark and sandbox.
Themebox is already a portmanteau of the two terms.
Oh, it's that guy who I blocked months ago, as always being super aggressive.
How about go read a bit, before throwing stones at people? Here is a good start:
https://www.engadget.com/2014-01-30-defining-sandparks-within-the-mmorpg-space.html
https://www.mmogames.com/articles/archives/interview-ashes-of-creation-wants-bring-virtual-world-life/
"A sandbox does allow players to play how they want within the limits of the game's systems. But a sandbox does not always offer the benefits and thrill-ride of a themepark. A themepark might offer some taste of the sandbox's freedom but in general blocks content and growth with level or class requirements. Only when you truly mix the two will you have an MMO from this third category."
AoC is the third kind, clearly a hybrid, but a themebox which is mostly a themepark
Themepark: everything about that world, story and content is developed for you to play a specific way. Players can create content within certain limits. The lore is consistent and demands more work from the devs
Sandbox: World, content and features are developed for players to create their own game. Unlimited content creation, people make up stuff. Sandboxes allow developers to be lazy about the lore
If you think I am always being super aggressive, that must be because I am always calling out bullshit you spurt.
The appropriate remedy to that is for you to stop spurting out so much bullshit.
As an example, if you blocked me, you wouldnt have been able to read or quote the above post.
The above is all somewhat correct (or at least an opinion that is valid).
However, it is not what you said above.
What you are saying in this most recent post is that Ashes is part sandbox, but mostly themepark. This is fine, and the portmanteau that has been applied to it for years (including from Steven) is that Ashes is a themebox game.
This is what Dygz originally said.
However, the post I called you out on, you attempted to say that Ashes was 90% themebox and 10% sandbox.
Do you see the difference there?
Hey, maybe it was an honest mistake. That's fine- but when someone calls you out on an honest mistake, just own it.
On the other hand, maybe it was bullshit. This is my take, as you spurting such bullshit is on brand for you. In that case, when you are spurting bullshit - and a small part of you will always know when you are spurting said bullshit - and someone calls you on it, dont try and make up for it by spurting more bullshit like the above post. That person has already shown that they can see right through your bullshit, more bullshit is just going to get you in deeper.
@Noaani yeap, I blocked you a long time ago, but blocking only shrinks your comments, if i click your nickname then it expands the comment. This is ok, so I only expand your comments if I am in the mood. Try blocking someone and refresh the page
Anyway, I tripple checked what AoC really is, I even read the posts about this since 2017
AoC is a themebox, balanced mostly in the themepark genre than being sandbox. It is important adressing this because I have seen too many people saying AoC is a sandbox
In fact, even in other sites, other forums, videos, there's quite a lot of people calling it sandbox over and over
edit: I blocked you mostly because you treat other people like trash, not just me, so I don't like reading all those comments attacking everybody else... it's just bad vibes