Please don't force us to be victims of PvPers!

ArchivedUser

^^^
Perfectly stated.

ArchivedUser

Santiago said:

Bringslite said:

@ Stabby
Have you ever played an MMO without PVP that had a good healthy in game economy.

I'm way late to this but this comment made me seriously laugh.   Seriously, someone has been hiding under a rock.   How about WoW.  Everquest.  GW2.  Etc etc.   All of those games have no PvP if you don't want it and they have highly active economies.   
People need to admit that non-consentual PvP games have LESS overall appeal than otherwise.  Just because you are loud with your opinions (as the PvP ganker crowd is) doesn't make you right.

I'm sure that if AoC doesn't address this and provide a better mechanism than "you can get back at them using PvP..." then it's going to alienate a significant portion of it's potential audience.

That said a lot of companies rely on PvP to mask their lack of real game content.... since PvP is the poor man's way to keep players engaged in a game without having to put in a lot of content work.

"Healthy Economy" is an important part of my question (which isn't so in the games you've mentioned) but I thank you for having an opinion. Also, apologies if I'm loud.

ArchivedUser

Let's ask an honest question. Let's assume (hypothetically) that Ashes launched with both PVE and PVP servers. Which ones do you think would be more populated?

Whatever the answer is, that's what the devs should focus on. Thank you, bye.

ArchivedUser

Stabby said:

Let's ask an honest question. Let's assume (hypothetically) that Ashes launched with both PVE and PVP servers. Which ones do you think would be more populated?

Whatever the answer is, that's what the devs should focus on. Thank you, bye.

Thats not a real response to consider due to the nature of AoC's system.

PvP players need PvE to drive ingame PvP dynamics through questing and raiding. And PvE players need PvP players to conflict to open up constantly changing PvE paths and new events. Likewise PvE can cause open world events that PvP players need to engage.

That is essentially how AoC is designed at its core because of the Node system, the Node system itself is a literal design around both. You can choose to play one or the other, but need both in this game. 

So really asking what to focus on is a rhetorical question and cannot logically be answered because that is just not how the game works. The flagging system, corruption (including the potential to drop their gear), Bounty system, and ingame politics will be plenty of detriment.

Player killers who do it just to do it, will be easy to deal with, and likely lose their gear and everything in the process. Not to mention having massively reduced stats.

So keep your toon unflagged by selection, and if you are just farming, or pveing know if anyone kills you. They will suffer massively for it lol

ArchivedUser

Stabby said:

Let's ask an honest question. Let's assume (hypothetically) that Ashes launched with both PVE and PVP servers. Which ones do you think would be more populated?

Whatever the answer is, that's what the devs should focus on. Thank you, bye.

If someone does not want PVP, Ashes is probably not the game to be looking into. It is not trying to be a safe space for Bambi to run around freely; It supposed to be a game with risk, reward, and meaningful choices and consequences. Also, as Nelson_Rebel mentioned, a PVE server in Ashes would make no sense from a design perspective. 

ArchivedUser

lollolkoko said:

Stabby said:

Let's ask an honest question. Let's assume (hypothetically) that Ashes launched with both PVE and PVP servers. Which ones do you think would be more populated?

Whatever the answer is, that's what the devs should focus on. Thank you, bye.

If someone does not want PVP, Ashes is probably not the game to be looking into. It is not trying to be a safe space for Bambi to run around freely; It supposed to be a game with risk, reward, and meaningful choices and consequences. Also, as Nelson_Rebel mentioned, a PVE server in Ashes would make no sense from a design perspective. 

Spoiler...Bambi's mom dies.  So it was not a very safe environment for Bambi.

ArchivedUser

The design we've seen so far means both PvE and PvP are essential to how the servers even function. But the design also seems to suggest you can avoid PvP easily and if someone gets all murder-hobo on you they'll suffer for it as much or more than you. Gankfests of innocent PvErs isn't going to be that common. It really sounds like they're tuning the game to be the best of both worlds. Both avenues are important and you can choose your paths in the game on where to focus your game time. What's not to love about that?

ArchivedUser

Money is great but not if you have to compromise your "Great Vision" to get it.

Well that simply isn't the game that they want to put forth, now is it? They don't want to offer a PVE only game and they don't want a restriction free PVP game. Neither would be Ashes of Creation as intended.

I think that they just have their idea about the type of game they want to offer the world. The design requires a mix of PVP and PVE and it needs a mix that doesn't give PVPers or PVEers everything that they want. Everybody from the extreme points-of-view have to accept compromises so that they can make the game that the Devs have envisioned. It's as simple as that.

No single game is (so far) going to be "perfect" and match each player's personal needs.

ArchivedUser

i do not mind pvp .
my main question is on howmuch it woud cost me in time .
i am grinding/camping a spot in game and i get gankt .
howlong woud it take me to be readdy to grind again ? ( respawn , travel time back , ...)
5-7 min = no problem if it is like 20-30 min then we have a problem .

olso how fast is the corruption ?
we all know most of the classes have some AoE powers .
if i am in a mid level zone and i see some low levels around whith 2 or 3 high level toons ( powerleveling or watever ) .
if the low levels run into my AoE whitch wil kil them ( nakid level 1 char ) .
i am now flagd and the high levels can kill me .
howmany suicide run newbies do thy need before i get stat loss or before thy can start looting my gear .
do shield spels that dmg the toons that hit you count as fighting back ( shield of torns ) for pvp flags/corruption .

ArchivedUser

midgard said:

i do not mind pvp .
my main question is on howmuch it woud cost me in time .
i am grinding/camping a spot in game and i get gankt .
howlong woud it take me to be readdy to grind again ? ( respawn , travel time back , ...)
5-7 min = no problem if it is like 20-30 min then we have a problem .

olso how fast is the corruption ?
we all know most of the classes have some AoE powers .
if i am in a mid level zone and i see some low levels around whith 2 or 3 high level toons ( powerleveling or watever ) .
if the low levels run into my AoE whitch wil kil them ( nakid level 1 char ) .
i am now flagd and the high levels can kill me .
howmany suicide run newbies do thy need before i get stat loss or before thy can start looting my gear .
do shield spels that dmg the toons that hit you count as fighting back ( shield of torns ) for pvp flags/corruption .

There is no "suicide run by noob" that is going to happen. They have addressed the problem that some games had with people running into other players aoe by removing that as an option in game. To flag on a player and attack them you have to "force flag" on them. This means that you have to target them with a single target attack and actively push a button to start the flagging mechanic. People can run in circles around you all day, and as long as you don't flag on them, you're fine. If they attack you, they flag purple, and you are free to kill them, and you gain no corruption. So if someone attacks you with their low level character, have fun and roflstomp them. If they have higher than you level friends grouped with them, then just ignore the attacks and let them kill you, they will both gain corruption. Most workarounds the pvp brahs have come up with have already been addressed, and once we get to test the corruption system in A2, then we will close any remaining loopholes.

ArchivedUser

The game is built upon the construction-destruction sinergy, there are already many ways in which you can protect yourself of non-consensual pvp, like join a guild of like minded people, who play in a way you like (PVE mostly) but that can defend your node if its attacked.

ArchivedUser

after reading all these comments form pvpers and their ilk...

i fear this game is going to end up like Bless Online...

seriously.. another PVP focused mmo? those never succeed... ever...

ArchivedUser

Knxguy said:

after reading all these comments form pvpers and their ilk...

i fear this game is going to end up like Bless Online...

seriously.. another PVP focused mmo? those never succeed... ever...

To be honest, I think full PvP focused people as well as Full PvE focused people might be dissapointed if they are expecting things to fully be in their realm.  Based on what we know there seems to be a healthy mix of both with repercussions for people who engage in unwanted PvP.

If you want no PvP you can potentially come close to doing that by being in an area with little conflict, or under a major guild that controls a lot of territory.. or flat out being with a guild that doesn't want to fight and purely focuses on support (PvE etc.)

If you don't want to fight there appear to be options you can utilize.

ArchivedUser

dracdoc said:

Knxguy said:

after reading all these comments form pvpers and their ilk...

i fear this game is going to end up like Bless Online...

seriously.. another PVP focused mmo? those never succeed... ever...

To be honest, I think full PvP focused people as well as Full PvE focused people might be dissapointed if they are expecting things to fully be in their realm.  Based on what we know there seems to be a healthy mix of both with repercussions for people who engage in unwanted PvP.

If you want no PvP you can potentially come close to doing that by being in an area with little conflict, or under a major guild that controls a lot of territory.. or flat out being with a guild that doesn't want to fight and purely focuses on support (PvE etc.)

If you don't want to fight there appear to be options you can utilize.

people have been saying there NEEDS to be player that destroy pve created things to create "new" things or for the economy to work?

if i grind my way to get myself a house/land finally, can some guild just come and wreck it? exactly what 'options' are there for OPEN WORLD pvp (bane of mmos imho, but thats me) avoiding?

i dont want to pay them money every month to have my hard earned player house/land wrecked while im gone...

don't say join a massive guild, or hire some other player to protect it... why would anyone want to even bother building a house if some rando can come and wreck it, and only get a debuff for a day or till they're dead...

debuff < lost months worth of grinding and gold ..

i still stand by my statement that PVP FOCUSSED mmo games NEVER succeed... ever.

ArchivedUser

Knxguy said:

after reading all these comments form pvpers and their ilk...

i fear this game is going to end up like Bless Online...

seriously.. another PVP focused mmo? those never succeed... ever...

I don't understand. Have you read about the game, and listened to Stevens interviews?

Yes, this is a PVP focused MMO. It will also have lots of other stuff to do, but it rests largely on a PVP dynamic. The devs have not been ambiguous about this fact, on the contrary, they have been crystal clear. They have been crystal clear since the beginning. The node system should at least have been a dead give away.

I'm genuinely curious. What gave you the impression that AoC was not going to be PVP focused? I'm assuming you initially expected it would not be PVP focused and then learned otherwise when you came to these forums? I'm basing this assumption on your statement "seriously.. another PVP focused mmo? those never succeed... ever...".

Or are you simply here to try to convince the devs to change the core mechanic of their game?

ArchivedUser

Knxguy said:

i still stand by my statement that PVP FOCUSSED mmo games NEVER succeed... ever.

First I would question what you consider a PvP focused MMO and if Ashe's currently falls into that category.. and what does

Eve Online - Highly successful MMO heavily PvP which seems to have the same concept that Ashes is using.  If you want to avoid combat there are ways to do it (High Sec) but if you the conflict, access to compete over resources you'll be in Null Sec.

ArchivedUser

i still stand by my statement that PVP FOCUSSED mmo games NEVER succeed... ever.

EVE Online. Pure and simple. Been around since 2003 and is still strong.

I will however give you some ground if you were to say "poorly designed pvp focused games never succeed." In that case, I'd agree. There have been many poorly designed PVP MMO's that have struggled to gain momentum.

ArchivedUser

LithiusV said:

Knxguy said:

after reading all these comments form pvpers and their ilk...

i fear this game is going to end up like Bless Online...

seriously.. another PVP focused mmo? those never succeed... ever...

I don't understand. Have you read about the game, and listened to Stevens interviews?

Yes, this is a PVP focused MMO. It will also have lots of other stuff to do, but it rests largely on a PVP dynamic. The devs have not been ambiguous about this fact, on the contrary, they have been crystal clear. They have been crystal clear since the beginning. The node system should at least have been a dead give away.

I'm genuinely curious. What gave you the impression that AoC was not going to be PVP focused? I'm assuming you initially expected it would not be PVP focused and then learned otherwise when you came to these forums? I'm basing this assumption on your statement "seriously.. another PVP focused mmo? those never succeed... ever...".

Or are you simply here to try to convince the devs to change the core mechanic of their game?

i learned of this pvp focus from these forums...

they supposed to be making an MMORPG

not some league of legends gank fest...

seriously ive been burned before by games that market themselves as "MMO" games (Bless Online) and now... after seeing this game is probably following that path im dissapointed and probably skip this game...

'there are ways to avoid open worl toxic pvp' i keep seeing people say this but no one has actually said exactly what those 'ways' are...

i feel like PVP is going to get forced onto players... just like bless does... and then say "oh? don't like pvp? stay in the 'safe zones' (that still can be destroyed anyway) but your progression will be limited if you dont go and pvp"

now... EvE online pvp focussed 200k approx. subs
WoW, completely optional pvp and open world pvp... millions of subs...

there has to be an incentive for pve player to play this game otherwise, dont start complaining when there is long BG ques, no one to 'fight' when player numbers are so low... (Bless)

ArchivedUser

It should be stated that Ashes is not a PvP focused game and the IS has always suggested Ashes is a PvX game.

Meaning they are focusing game construction around both, relatively equally. I have yet to see anything about Ashes that leads me to believe it is PvP focused and that I will at some point Have to deal with PvP.

Sure, I can get attacked by a player, but that doesn't mean the game is PvP focused.

ArchivedUser

@Knxguy

Lots of devs have tried to copy the WoW formula, and we have seen how that has panned out. You want more of the same? AoC is an attempt to bring a bit of spice into a genre that has been lacking for many years.

It is unrealistic to expect ANY game to hit the mark like WoW did. It was a phenomena that came at the right time. It was a product of the time and the technology. It was a perfect storm that led to its huge success.

Once again, I need to reiterate what I said before. The devs have been crystal clear on what this game will be. They are supposed to be making an open-world sandbox PVP MMORPG. This fact will not change, it is etched into the fundamental design of the game.

ArchivedUser

@Knxguy LOL that post is really funny.

Unless you didn't mean it as a joke, in which case You really should read about how the sieges work before posting something like that.

in a nutshell, no, a random can't just decide he wants to wreck your freehold and then go and break stuff. Sieges require a large number of resources and effort to even declare, and even then they can only destroy freeholds after a successful siege. And even if they accomplish all that you don't "lose" your home, all your stuff minus a few looted raw materials just gets mailed to you. So you just need to find a new place to go and plop it down.

ArchivedUser

Azathoth said:

It should be stated that Ashes is not a PvP focused game and the IS has always suggested Ashes is a PvX game.

Meaning they are focusing game construction around both, relatively equally. I have yet to see anything about Ashes that leads me to believe it is PvP focused and that I will at some point Have to deal with PvP.

Sure, I can get attacked by a player, but that doesn't mean the game is PvP focused.

That is an excellent point you bring up Azathoth. They have always stated that it will be a PvX game, from the very beginning.

However, for gamers that don't want PVP or only want consensual PVP, this will not allay their fears.

ArchivedUser

Santy182 said:

@Knxguy LOL that post is really funny.

Unless you didn't mean it as a joke, in which case You really should read about how the sieges work before posting something like that.

in a nutshell, no, a random can't just decide he wants to wreck your freehold and then go and break stuff. Sieges require a large number of resources and effort to even declare, and even then they can only destroy freeholds after a successful siege. And even if they accomplish all that you don't "lose" your home, all your stuff minus a few looted raw materials just gets mailed to you. So you just need to find a new place to go and plop it down.

no i am being completely serious...

Why should PVE players play this game? What are these "ways to avoid open world pvp if you want to"?

and if you don't lose your stuff just you place that's cool to hear. (if true)

my skeptisim has increased after reading about this HEAVY pvp focus after being burnt by other "new and refreshing and """adding spice""" to the mmo genre" type games...

@LithiusV
Every other game that has tried to come out after wow has had the same thinking... "we want to add 'something new and different and to spice up the mmo genre"

why fix something that isn't broken? are you telling me you wouldn't play another Version of WoW, that looks like AoC?  hell millions of players are looking forward to re playing WoW vanilla when that goes live again...

look im not against open world pvp in its entirety, im against it being forced onto players and having it ruin your gaming experience

ArchivedUser

@LithiusV
Every other game that has tried to come out after wow has had the same thinking... "we want to add 'something new and different and to spice up the mmo genre"

why fix something that isn't broken? are you telling me you wouldn't play another Version of WoW, that looks like AoC?  hell millions of players are looking forward to re playing WoW vanilla when that goes live again...

look im not against open world pvp in its entirety, im against it being forced onto players and having it ruin your gaming experience

I would disagree with your assertion that many games afterwards tried to add spice to the genre. For many years after WoW was released many developers just copied the WoW formula and maybe added perfunctory additions to give their own flavour to what was essentially the same formula. They all were relatively unsuccessful. The reason why? Because WoW produced the perfect formula for the time that it was released in. It was too far ahead of the game and there was no way any game could catch up. Its success cannot be replicated in the same way.

AoC is not simply adding spice to a WoW formula. It is simply not trying to be WoW plus. It is something totally different. It is providing spice to the genre, not spice to the WoW formula. It is offering a new combination of mechanics. It is exciting.

Regarding your question. I hated WoW. Absolutely hated it. So no, I would most certainly not play an AoC skinned WoW game. The reason why I hated it? Because it was a themepark MMO that lacked any meaningful risk.

ArchivedUser

LithiusV said:

 Because it was a themepark MMO that lacked any meaningful risk.

and AoC at the moment is just looking like it is nothing BUT risk

TOO much risk involved to entice any decent amount of pve players into your game.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

To flag on a player and attack them you have to "force flag" on them. This means that you have to target them with a single target attack and actively push a button to start the flagging mechanic.

Do you happen to have a source for that information? It's not that I don't believe you, it's just the first time I hear of it. AoE flagging is often a point of criticism towards the flagging/corruption system and I'd love to know how to counter it 

ArchivedUser

Knxguy said:

LithiusV said:

 Because it was a themepark MMO that lacked any meaningful risk.

and AoC at the moment is just looking like it is nothing BUT risk

TOO much risk involved to entice any decent amount of pve players into your game.

I would refer you to @Azathoth excellent post. AoC is billing itself as a PvX game. Intrepid are going to try and strike a balance between themepark and sandbox elements, between open-world PVP and PVE elements.

Will Intrepid succeed in this task? No one knows. Most of us here are hoping that they do! We are willing to wager on something new and fresh.

However, will you be able to play this game and be 100% safe from being murdered in cold blood? The clear and emphatic answer is no.

The question is, will you accept the premise under which this game is being built and support the game? Will you trust Intrepid with their vision? Or will you decide to invest your time and interest in an other game that will provide the game play elements that your prefer?

ArchivedUser

LithiusV said:

Knxguy said:

LithiusV said:

 Because it was a themepark MMO that lacked any meaningful risk.

and AoC at the moment is just looking like it is nothing BUT risk

TOO much risk involved to entice any decent amount of pve players into your game.

I would refer you to @Azathoth excellent post. AoC is billing itself as a PvX game. Intrepid are going to try and strike a balance between themepark and sandbox elements, between open-world PVP and PVE elements.

Will Intrepid succeed in this task? No one knows. Most of us here are hoping that they do! We are willing to wager on something new and fresh.

However, will you be able to play this game and be 100% safe from being murdered in cold blood? The clear and emphatic answer is no.

The question is, will you accept the premise under which this game is being built and support the game? Will you trust Intrepid with their vision? Or will you decide to invest your time and interest in an other game that will provide the game play elements that your prefer?

right at this moment? they are not getting a cent from me.

until i see ANY PVE, and these "ways to avoid it/minimize getting ganked" its looking like nothing but a pvp gankers dream game.

will be keeping an eye on it still, but yeah... what little hype i had has been completely squashed. (only positive ive gotten form Bless Online burning is i will now research a hell of a lot more what games are offering)

im actually glad i came to the forums this early on, as i was expecting a completely different "MMORPG" from never reading the forums...

saving me the trouble of being ganked in game, right now... thats all it looks like will be happening...

ArchivedUser

There needs to be a reason to PvP, I want to get my Node to lvl 5 but it can't because this other node is at lvl 5. We organize a raid to bring it down a lvl.

I want to bring a bunch of resources to this neighboring node for massive profit so I get a caravan organized, we get attacked I defend.

I'm exploring and I see someone, I let them be because I have zero reason to attack them, what is my possible reward? Some resources at the cost of corruption no thank you.

I don't mind pvp, and I represent 80% of the player base if you assume even distribution along a bell curve. You will need to deal with =< 10% of people who like to grief.

But then again that 10% will be gaining healthy amounts of corruption.

Avoid caravans, avoid higher lvl nodes and you avoid all pvp. But you'd belong to that other 10% if that was your goal.

ArchivedUser

@Knxguy

You have mentioned Bless Online several times. That game was an absolute shit-show for so many reasons. AoC will be nothing like Bless Online. Bless Online is propably one of the worst examples of an MMO I have ever played, so i'd encourage you not to let that bad experience divest you of the opportunity to really get involved with the great community we have here. And who knows, to even open youself up to the possibility of playing an open-world PvX MMORPG game in the future

I'd encourgae you to give this wiki a really good read if you want to get some reliable information on AoC.

http://www.aocwiki.net/Main_Page

There are so many exciting game elements that AoC will be introducing into its game. I really think this game has a good chance of moving the MMO genre forward. This is coming from an old grizzled MMO gamer who has been disappointment countless times in the past.

The reason why I think this game has alot going for it is threefold-

a) The CEO (Steven) is a hardcore MMO gamer himself who also is a successful business man in his own right. The fact that he doesn't come from the game industry but is a gamer himself is a promising combination when taking into account his business acumen and the dev team he has behind him. He knows what us MMO gamers have had to endure over the years, he has been there.

b) The proposed game mechanics are really amazing and fresh. The PvX approach is going to be the strength of this game in my opinion.

c) Most importantly!!! The dev team has HUGE amounts of experience. This is rare for games such as this. This is a unique game AND it has an amazing dev team. This is largely why I am confidant in the future of this game.