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Please don't force us to be victims of PvPers!

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Comments

  • Greygoose said:
    @Stormspirit There is no punishment for PvP, only for griefing. There are so many legit avenues for world PvP and minimal incentive to kill a random person in the wild.

    If people want to be able to grief they will get punished accordingly, do it once and get a little corruption but do it more and you might lose gear.

    But honestly I'd think getting a dozen like minded folk to raid a caravan would be a lot more exciting.

    I completely agree with this statement entirely.  In EQ2 the way they eliminated griefing was by putting each PC you killed on a 15 minute grief timer. Meaning sure you could kill them but you would gain no experience and that kill would not count towards your PVP Bounty quest at all. I intend to be a goody in the end but I want to take out a caravan or two here and there. It's not theft and murder if it's for the good of my node I belong to, right!? xD
    The only qualm I have with this or systems like it is the blanket coverage of it. Ashes is supposed to have limited resources (before they deplete and move to a new area) and we don't know of monster spawn rates. To me a game like that enables and encourages pvp over things like resources. If I'm attacking another person in the open world it's for a reason: loot, rare monster, resources, etc. Applying a grief timer to ashes would (I assume) increase corruption further so there is nothing stopping the same person to come back knowing your getting penalized and they can steal what you worked hard for.

    To be honest I'd even go as far as saying looting resources (in the open world, not from a monster kill) should flag you as combatant for a short period. 

    Thats my only hangup about the corruption system as well.... granted I'm still more than willing to suffer some corruption to protect resources I cleared for or found.

    And as far as greygoose said, the definition of griefing needs to be determined. Getting killed once to prevent you from harvesting mushrooms I killed 8 monsters for should and would not be considered griefing. Me Hunting you down over and over again because you got said mushrooms would.

    At the end of the day the pvp I do will be centered around areas that don't punish with corruption (or at least luring people there) but I'm not afraid to go red to protect something I stumbled upon. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    I have a lot to say about the most recent comments. But before I do I would like to take my hat of in remembrance of Black Desert Online Russia. Yup, it's closing. The publisher decided not to renew its license agreement. Kakao will probably follow suit with their NA/EU servers when it comes renewal time.

    The reason is that there's no money left. The well has run dry. The community begged Pearl Abyss for years to add a PVE server, increase the RNG and fix class balance. They did none of those things. This is the result. Cause and effect.

    Russian players still have hope tho. Pearl Abyss bought EVE Online a few days ago. We assume it was for infastrucre of a global server, but that's specualtion.

    Now.... let's talk about Ashes. I think there are some common misconceptions about PVEers. We're not crafters. Some PVEers do like to craft, yes. But as a PVEer my primary focus is quests, leveling, dungeon grinding and especially raiding. I love a 4 day a week raid schedule like EQ2 had. That's what I want in a game. Not crafting. I want to play my way. My way does not include non-consensual combat. I do occasionally PVP, but only when I feel like it.

    Secondly, I think there's an equally troubling misconception that all PVPers are gankers. That's simply not true. Additionally, many PVPers love PVE as well.

    Ashes was created as a means for Steven to build the game of HIS dreams. And he's doing that. I believe he's under the false assumption that most of us like to PVP. The most successful games in history are only still alive due to PVE. So this is an incorrect assumption.

    At the end of the day it's still an investment. It's still a business. As with any business, you must have customers and reoccurring revenue. You have to keep the lights on and an expensive dev team paid. I don't think there's anyone in this thread that wants AoC to fail. We all love Stevens ideas, in part or in whole. With that said I think it would be naive of him to ignore valuable lessons that the gaming industry has learned since EverQuest first launched in 1999. Take a close look at what worked and what failed. Ask yourself why.

    PVE and PVP both have a place in all future MMO's. Nobody in this thread has asked for Intepid to remove PVP from Ashes of Creation. Only that there be optional servers with consensual combat. But both PVE and PVP are required for this game to succeed. To offer one and not the other is to cut your marketability in half. As stated recently in this post, many games have focused too much time and effort into being different than WoW. This is their lesson learned. This is why the MMO market is bleeding. We need another EverQuest. We need another World of Warcraft. We need another EVE Online. 

    The stars are aligned for Ashes to seize a marketshare of the MMO market right now. Steven is making a tragic mistake by not focusing more attention on PVE. Whether it's in his game or not is irrelevant. All we've heard so far is how bad this game will be for PVEers, but the option exists. What option? Crafting? That's not an option. Not for me. A few raids mean nothing if the entrance to the raid zone is camped by 100 players demanding an entry fee before you'll be allowed access (this really happened in Archage). 

    @GMSteven you're already losing more customers than you're retaining, and the game is only in Alpha. You have the opportunity right now to add PVE servers with a different "third pillar". I'm begging you, for your own good, for the good of Intrepid, for the good of the genre, please reconsider. 

    Russia BDO is an example of a perfect business turned into a lemonade stand by horrible leadership. I've already heard this game referred to as "Trashes of Creation" due to your PvP ruleset. You have an entire industry begging for a new game. You are the only one that can topple WoW. If your goal is not money then continue on your current path. But my warning is this... PvP players will not sustain your game. Your vision and your company will die when they get bored. How will you keep the lights on when they're gone? Will you break your word and offer microtransactions just so you can stay afloat?  Look, I hope I'm wrong. I truly hope you succeed. It's good for the genre if you do. But please, consider pivoting your business model. Incorporate and advertise more PVE content. Get PVE players into your Alpha and Beta. Use their feedback. Get the PVE hype while you still can.

    Good luck.
  • @Stabby
    @GMSteven you're losing more customers than you are retaining, and the game is only in Alpha. You have the opportunity right now to add PVE servers with a different "third pillar". I'm begging you, for your own good, for the good of Intrepid, for the good of the genre, please reconsider. 

    Where are your metrics? Would love to see that source and not just some hyperbole that you pulled outta your ass.
  • @Stabby
    @GMSteven you're losing more customers than you are retaining, and the game is only in Alpha. You have the opportunity right now to add PVE servers with a different "third pillar". I'm begging you, for your own good, for the good of Intrepid, for the good of the genre, please reconsider. 

    Where are your metrics? Would love to see that source and not just some hyperbole that you pulled outta your ass.
    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do deductive reasoning. Look at the growing age of MMOs. Look at their quarterly statements. There are graphs out there that show the frequency of new MMO's. I'm not going to find them for you.
  • Stabby said:
    @Stabby
    @GMSteven you're losing more customers than you are retaining, and the game is only in Alpha. You have the opportunity right now to add PVE servers with a different "third pillar". I'm begging you, for your own good, for the good of Intrepid, for the good of the genre, please reconsider. 

    Where are your metrics? Would love to see that source and not just some hyperbole that you pulled outta your ass.
    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do deductive reasoning. Look at the growing age of MMOs. Look at their quarterly statements. There are graphs out there that show the frequency of new MMO's. I'm not going to find them for you.
    You're not going to find them for me because you can't. You are using your bias to try and effect change that you want after having been told no multiple times. You can whinge, post page long screeds, and make up all the Chicken Little scenarios you like. Doesn't mean they are going to change that third pillar. Adapt or get left behind.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018

    Well I'm not really a big fan of random PVP myself. I'll go so far as to say I dislike it in basic concept. It serves little purpose in general and only seems mandatory to those that like best to run around killing because they are bored.

    I do however feel that games without risk/reward elements are not as exciting as games with risk/reward.

    It took some time (for me) to realize that "getting ganked" was not the end of the world. That dying to another player was not much different than dying to an AI mob that was mobile and more than a match for my character. The fact that its another player is psychologically powerful only when you let it be.

    Get over those hang ups and you can enjoy these newer games, which include some PVP, and really enjoy all of the "neat" other things and new cool concepts that they offer. Its on the Developer to Kibash griefing and that is much easier to do for companies that maintain creative control of their product, such as is the case here, thankfully.

    As to those that won't accept PVP at all because they so hate that random PVP element and you want PVE servers, maybe you are debating for the wrong things. Maybe you should be fighting for some "consensual PVP only Servers" instead. Meaning keep the Node War stuff and PVP set up Node Raids and the Caravan stuff but cut the random ganking of flower pickers. That certainly would force much less change on the overall design and work already invested.

  • My way to PvE is to withhold consent and give out corruption.  But I definitely am down for PvP for caravans, sieges, and castles.
  • @Stabby You mean you are not a crafter. I would consider myself primarily a PvE centered gamer. Personally I'm looking forward to exploring and gathering herbs. 

    If you assume that the 10% of people on the left of a bell curve you'd belong on the right. This game will cater to 60-80% of people.

    I think you've made it clear that AoC is not the game for you, and that's fair as it's not supposed to cater to 100% of the market.

    You can't assume other peoples opinions and at the end of the day the decisions been made. We as a community might be able to influence variables but the core game is the core game.
  • Greygoose said:
    @Stormspirit There is no punishment for PvP, only for griefing. There are so many legit avenues for world PvP and minimal incentive to kill a random person in the wild.

    If people want to be able to grief they will get punished accordingly, do it once and get a little corruption but do it more and you might lose gear.

    But honestly I'd think getting a dozen like minded folk to raid a caravan would be a lot more exciting.

    I completely agree with this statement entirely.  In EQ2 the way they eliminated griefing was by putting each PC you killed on a 15 minute grief timer. Meaning sure you could kill them but you would gain no experience and that kill would not count towards your PVP Bounty quest at all. I intend to be a goody in the end but I want to take out a caravan or two here and there. It's not theft and murder if it's for the good of my node I belong to, right!? xD
    The only qualm I have with this or systems like it is the blanket coverage of it. Ashes is supposed to have limited resources (before they deplete and move to a new area) and we don't know of monster spawn rates. To me a game like that enables and encourages pvp over things like resources. If I'm attacking another person in the open world it's for a reason: loot, rare monster, resources, etc. Applying a grief timer to ashes would (I assume) increase corruption further so there is nothing stopping the same person to come back knowing your getting penalized and they can steal what you worked hard for.

    To be honest I'd even go as far as saying looting resources (in the open world, not from a monster kill) should flag you as combatant for a short period. 

    Thats my only hangup about the corruption system as well.... granted I'm still more than willing to suffer some corruption to protect resources I cleared for or found.

    And as far as greygoose said, the definition of griefing needs to be determined. Getting killed once to prevent you from harvesting mushrooms I killed 8 monsters for should and would not be considered griefing. Me Hunting you down over and over again because you got said mushrooms would.

    At the end of the day the pvp I do will be centered around areas that don't punish with corruption (or at least luring people there) but I'm not afraid to go red to protect something I stumbled upon. 
    The scenario you described would be considered ganking or defending what you were fighting for. Now if you hunted me down after killing me and getting what you were after and proceeded to kill me over and over again... That'd be griefing. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Stabby said:
    I have a lot to say about the most recent comments. But before I do I would like to take my hat of in remembrance of Black Desert Online Russia. Yup, it's closing. The publisher decided not to renew its license agreement. Kakao will probably follow suit with their NA/EU servers when it comes renewal time.

    The reason is that there's no money left. The well has run dry. The community begged Pearl Abyss for years to add a PVE server, increase the RNG and fix class balance. They did none of those things. This is the result. Cause and effect.

    Russian players still have hope tho. Pearl Abyss bought EVE Online a few days ago. We assume it was for infastrucre of a global server, but that's specualtion.

    Now.... let's talk about Ashes. I think there are some common misconceptions about PVEers. We're not crafters. Some PVEers do like to craft, yes. But as a PVEer my primary focus is quests, leveling, dungeon grinding and especially raiding. I love a 4 day a week raid schedule like EQ2 had. That's what I want in a game. Not crafting. I want to play my way. My way does not include non-consensual combat. I do occasionally PVP, but only when I feel like it.

    Secondly, I think there's an equally troubling misconception that all PVPers are gankers. That's simply not true. Additionally, many PVPers love PVE as well.

    Ashes was created as a means for Steven to build the game of HIS dreams. And he's doing that. I believe he's under the false assumption that most of us like to PVP. The most successful games in history are only still alive due to PVE. So this is an incorrect assumption.

    At the end of the day it's still an investment. It's still a business. As with any business, you must have customers and reoccurring revenue. You have to keep the lights on and an expensive dev team paid. I don't think there's anyone in this thread that wants AoC to fail. We all love Stevens ideas, in part or in whole. With that said I think it would be naive of him to ignore valuable lessons that the gaming industry has learned since EverQuest first launched in 1999. Take a close look at what worked and what failed. Ask yourself why.

    PVE and PVP both have a place in all future MMO's. Nobody in this thread has asked for Intepid to remove PVP from Ashes of Creation. Only that there be optional servers with consensual combat. But both PVE and PVP are required for this game to succeed. To offer one and not the other is to cut your marketability in half. As stated recently in this post, many games have focused too much time and effort into being different than WoW. This is their lesson learned. This is why the MMO market is bleeding. We need another EverQuest. We need another World of Warcraft. We need another EVE Online. 

    The stars are aligned for Ashes to seize a marketshare of the MMO market right now. Steven is making a tragic mistake by not focusing more attention on PVE. Whether it's in his game or not is irrelevant. All we've heard so far is how bad this game will be for PVEers, but the option exists. What option? Crafting? That's not an option. Not for me. A few raids mean nothing if the entrance to the raid zone is camped by 100 players demanding an entry fee before you'll be allowed access (this really happened in Archage). 

    @GMSteven you're already losing more customers than you're retaining, and the game is only in Alpha. You have the opportunity right now to add PVE servers with a different "third pillar". I'm begging you, for your own good, for the good of Intrepid, for the good of the genre, please reconsider. 

    Russia BDO is an example of a perfect business turned into a lemonade stand by horrible leadership. I've already heard this game referred to as "Trashes of Creation" due to your PvP ruleset. You have an entire industry begging for a new game. You are the only one that can topple WoW. If your goal is not money then continue on your current path. But my warning is this... PvP players will not sustain your game. Your vision and your company will die when they get bored. How will you keep the lights on when they're gone? Will you break your word and offer microtransactions just so you can stay afloat?  Look, I hope I'm wrong. I truly hope you succeed. It's good for the genre if you do. But please, consider pivoting your business model. Incorporate and advertise more PVE content. Get PVE players into your Alpha and Beta. Use their feedback. Get the PVE hype while you still can.

    Good luck.
    ArcheAge was a Sandbox, such things happened all the time and for the most part, the community banded together and murdered those players that did stuff like that and sent them off to trial. Open world PvP didn't kill that game, P2W cash shop did. Got pretty ridiculous when whomever swiped the credit card the most won the game. Even had an incident where a guild leader paid off competition at castle sieges to avoid a battle and cap multiple castles.  It has been stated throughout this thread multiple times and I am aware that you've said you don't wish to play it because you're under the impression the graphics are horrible in comparison but Pantheon is honestly the MMORPG you're looking for. It is literally going to be a reskinned EverQuest. Half of what EQ Next was supposed to be. The other half is here with the random encounter content.
  • Another game that focused too heavily on PvP is shutting down. Wildstar is closing its doors. 
  • You are committing a logical fallacy correlation does not imply causation. The games you mentioned were also pay to win. I'm not saying these games failed because they are pay to win either. 

    Multiple factors determine success, focusing on one potential factor is foolish and borders on hubris on your part.
  • Wildstar was a WoW in space knock-off. They did everything that people here are asking for. Had separate PVE/PVP servers. Catered to "hardcore" raiders. Were basically a reskinned themepark. That is what killed them, not their pvp.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    @Stabby you can’t compare this to those types of pvp mmo. Especially BDO !!! AoC has meaningful PVE, dungeons and raids. This is a PvX game ! It has PvE for you guys it has PvP for others. 
  • Stabby said:
    I have a lot to say about the most recent comments. But before I do I would like to take my hat of in remembrance of Black Desert Online Russia. Yup, it's closing. The publisher decided not to renew its license agreement. Kakao will probably follow suit with their NA/EU servers when it comes renewal time.

    The reason is that there's no money left. The well has run dry. The community begged Pearl Abyss for years to add a PVE server, increase the RNG and fix class balance. They did none of those things. This is the result. Cause and effect.

    Russian players still have hope tho. Pearl Abyss bought EVE Online a few days ago. We assume it was for infastrucre of a global server, but that's specualtion.

    Now.... let's talk about Ashes. I think there are some common misconceptions about PVEers. We're not crafters. Some PVEers do like to craft, yes. But as a PVEer my primary focus is quests, leveling, dungeon grinding and especially raiding. I love a 4 day a week raid schedule like EQ2 had. That's what I want in a game. Not crafting. I want to play my way. My way does not include non-consensual combat. I do occasionally PVP, but only when I feel like it.

    Secondly, I think there's an equally troubling misconception that all PVPers are gankers. That's simply not true. Additionally, many PVPers love PVE as well.

    Ashes was created as a means for Steven to build the game of HIS dreams. And he's doing that. I believe he's under the false assumption that most of us like to PVP. The most successful games in history are only still alive due to PVE. So this is an incorrect assumption.

    At the end of the day it's still an investment. It's still a business. As with any business, you must have customers and reoccurring revenue. You have to keep the lights on and an expensive dev team paid. I don't think there's anyone in this thread that wants AoC to fail. We all love Stevens ideas, in part or in whole. With that said I think it would be naive of him to ignore valuable lessons that the gaming industry has learned since EverQuest first launched in 1999. Take a close look at what worked and what failed. Ask yourself why.

    PVE and PVP both have a place in all future MMO's. Nobody in this thread has asked for Intepid to remove PVP from Ashes of Creation. Only that there be optional servers with consensual combat. But both PVE and PVP are required for this game to succeed. To offer one and not the other is to cut your marketability in half. As stated recently in this post, many games have focused too much time and effort into being different than WoW. This is their lesson learned. This is why the MMO market is bleeding. We need another EverQuest. We need another World of Warcraft. We need another EVE Online. 

    The stars are aligned for Ashes to seize a marketshare of the MMO market right now. Steven is making a tragic mistake by not focusing more attention on PVE. Whether it's in his game or not is irrelevant. All we've heard so far is how bad this game will be for PVEers, but the option exists. What option? Crafting? That's not an option. Not for me. A few raids mean nothing if the entrance to the raid zone is camped by 100 players demanding an entry fee before you'll be allowed access (this really happened in Archage). 

    @GMSteven you're already losing more customers than you're retaining, and the game is only in Alpha. You have the opportunity right now to add PVE servers with a different "third pillar". I'm begging you, for your own good, for the good of Intrepid, for the good of the genre, please reconsider. 

    Russia BDO is an example of a perfect business turned into a lemonade stand by horrible leadership. I've already heard this game referred to as "Trashes of Creation" due to your PvP ruleset. You have an entire industry begging for a new game. You are the only one that can topple WoW. If your goal is not money then continue on your current path. But my warning is this... PvP players will not sustain your game. Your vision and your company will die when they get bored. How will you keep the lights on when they're gone? Will you break your word and offer microtransactions just so you can stay afloat?  Look, I hope I'm wrong. I truly hope you succeed. It's good for the genre if you do. But please, consider pivoting your business model. Incorporate and advertise more PVE content. Get PVE players into your Alpha and Beta. Use their feedback. Get the PVE hype while you still can.

    Good luck.
    Where do people pull this bullshit out of ? This game does not carter to either PVP or PVE players it's for both, stop being a whiny bitch and wait until you play the game before being a know-it-all.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    i bet @Stabby is going to be like ...
    • " okaaay guys ... I warned you .... "
    • *~~turns around, waves his hand for the signal of his entourage~~*
    • " Lets get'em "

  • @Stabby
    On a more serious note though, thats the whole point of testing - to see what they can do. Its a PvX MMORPG, but i understand your concern. But at the same time, the whole point of having PvP is too prevent the game from becoming Stagnant 

    But I'll always prefer PvE over PvP anyday ... just not making separate servers ( also understandable )
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Well, i never understood hardcore PvErs. Do same stuff for enternity. Repeat dungeon million times just to do this again in higher dungeon. So be sure i'll attack you when you will be at similiar level and gear.

    Deal with it brothers, bring your friends a punish me. I'll bring my friends and war will start! For HONOR!

    Sad thing, this almost never succeed. Most of that corps was just crybabies. One more reason to kill them.
  • Eragale said:
    i bet @Stabby is going to be like ...
    • " okaaay guys ... I warned you .... "
    • *~~turns around, waves his hand for the signal of his entourage~~*
    • " Lets get'em "

    Molon labe 
  • Eragale said:
    i bet @Stabby is going to be like ...
    • " okaaay guys ... I warned you .... "
    • *~~turns around, waves his hand for the signal of his entourage~~*
    • " Lets get'em "


  • I admit, I am surprised that this topic is still active. I simply fail to see the cause for controversy or dissatisfaction.

    We've established that:
    - there are no incentives for random open-world murder.
    - there are, in fact, serious penalties for random open-world murder.
    - there are many entertaining options (arenas, caravan assaults, guild/node wars, and skirmishes over contested resources) to keep PvP players focused on activities other than random open-world murder.

    As such, I highly doubt that ganking is going to be a serious problem.

    If it turns out that ganking is still frequently abused, I'll be among the first to suggest additional measures to curb serial-gankers in AoC. However, given the attention IS is spending on curbing serial-ganking, I suspect that incidents of random murder will be few and far between.
  • Its a learned knee jerk reaction to a long history of "earlier game" PVP experiences and more than a few badly designed newer games. Mix those experiences with "difficult to please" player expectations and simmer at a low boil for 10 years.... ;)
  • Nefelia said:
    I admit, I am surprised that this topic is still active. I simply fail to see the cause for controversy or dissatisfaction.

    We've established that:
    - there are no incentives for random open-world murder.
    - there are, in fact, serious penalties for random open-world murder.
    - there are many entertaining options (arenas, caravan assaults, guild/node wars, and skirmishes over contested resources) to keep PvP players focused on activities other than random open-world murder.

    As such, I highly doubt that ganking is going to be a serious problem.

    If it turns out that ganking is still frequently abused, I'll be among the first to suggest additional measures to curb serial-gankers in AoC. However, given the attention IS is spending on curbing serial-ganking, I suspect that incidents of random murder will be few and far between.
    saddly its just one of those things that never goes away no matter how much you try
  • At this point I don't think I want this thread to disappear, can we make it to 2000 posts? Can you make it to May 2019. Those are the real important questions
  • LOL  :D 
    The thread that will never die....sorta like Nagash because he's already dead.
  • Nefelia said:
    We've established that:
    - there are no incentives for random open-world murder.
    - there are, in fact, serious penalties for random open-world murder.
    It is false to say there are no incentives, as players who die drop a percentage of carried raw materials.

    While there can be serious penalties for a corrupt character dying, there are also greater penalties for a character dying as a non-combatant than as a combatant.

    Choosing to not fight back and letting your character be killed* is choosing to lose twice as much exp, durability and raw materials to spite the player that killed them. This could be a source of great strife.

    *Online players are well known for doing things against their self interest just to spite strangers but in general it's the more aggressive players that do so which will be the ones initiating the red vs green fights.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    I really can't believe this thread has continued for so long.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Stabby said:
    I have a lot to say about the most recent comments. But before I do I would like to take my hat of in remembrance of Black Desert Online Russia. Yup, it's closing. The publisher decided not to renew its license agreement. Kakao will probably follow suit with their NA/EU servers when it comes renewal time.

    The reason is that there's no money left. The well has run dry. The community begged Pearl Abyss for years to add a PVE server, increase the RNG and fix class balance. They did none of those things. This is the result. Cause and effect.

    Russian players still have hope tho. Pearl Abyss bought EVE Online a few days ago. We assume it was for infastrucre of a global server, but that's specualtion.

    Now.... let's talk about Ashes. I think there are some common misconceptions about PVEers. We're not crafters. Some PVEers do like to craft, yes. But as a PVEer my primary focus is quests, leveling, dungeon grinding and especially raiding. I love a 4 day a week raid schedule like EQ2 had. That's what I want in a game. Not crafting. I want to play my way. My way does not include non-consensual combat. I do occasionally PVP, but only when I feel like it.

    Secondly, I think there's an equally troubling misconception that all PVPers are gankers. That's simply not true. Additionally, many PVPers love PVE as well.

    Ashes was created as a means for Steven to build the game of HIS dreams. And he's doing that. I believe he's under the false assumption that most of us like to PVP. The most successful games in history are only still alive due to PVE. So this is an incorrect assumption.

    At the end of the day it's still an investment. It's still a business. As with any business, you must have customers and reoccurring revenue. You have to keep the lights on and an expensive dev team paid. I don't think there's anyone in this thread that wants AoC to fail. We all love Stevens ideas, in part or in whole. With that said I think it would be naive of him to ignore valuable lessons that the gaming industry has learned since EverQuest first launched in 1999. Take a close look at what worked and what failed. Ask yourself why.

    PVE and PVP both have a place in all future MMO's. Nobody in this thread has asked for Intepid to remove PVP from Ashes of Creation. Only that there be optional servers with consensual combat. But both PVE and PVP are required for this game to succeed. To offer one and not the other is to cut your marketability in half. As stated recently in this post, many games have focused too much time and effort into being different than WoW. This is their lesson learned. This is why the MMO market is bleeding. We need another EverQuest. We need another World of Warcraft. We need another EVE Online. 

    The stars are aligned for Ashes to seize a marketshare of the MMO market right now. Steven is making a tragic mistake by not focusing more attention on PVE. Whether it's in his game or not is irrelevant. All we've heard so far is how bad this game will be for PVEers, but the option exists. What option? Crafting? That's not an option. Not for me. A few raids mean nothing if the entrance to the raid zone is camped by 100 players demanding an entry fee before you'll be allowed access (this really happened in Archage). 

    @GMSteven you're already losing more customers than you're retaining, and the game is only in Alpha. You have the opportunity right now to add PVE servers with a different "third pillar". I'm begging you, for your own good, for the good of Intrepid, for the good of the genre, please reconsider. 

    Russia BDO is an example of a perfect business turned into a lemonade stand by horrible leadership. I've already heard this game referred to as "Trashes of Creation" due to your PvP ruleset. You have an entire industry begging for a new game. You are the only one that can topple WoW. If your goal is not money then continue on your current path. But my warning is this... PvP players will not sustain your game. Your vision and your company will die when they get bored. How will you keep the lights on when they're gone? Will you break your word and offer microtransactions just so you can stay afloat?  Look, I hope I'm wrong. I truly hope you succeed. It's good for the genre if you do. But please, consider pivoting your business model. Incorporate and advertise more PVE content. Get PVE players into your Alpha and Beta. Use their feedback. Get the PVE hype while you still can.

    Good luck.
    This is false though. A game will last if it is good, BDO is going downhill true, but its not because its a pvp game. BDO in 2k16 was a pvp game and was thriving on its niche content, the community was growing, even through 2k17.
    But atm it is not a pvp game when players can hide behind protection, guilds can be undeclarable against wars, sieges in top regions are dead (only balenos and serendia got propper fights), there is no arena queue system, the battleground is very simplistic and overused. On top of this you have the p2w going through the roof in an already gear dependant game - and the gear dependancy really wasnt the issue. It was the blatant p2w, unbalanced seamonster hunting and botters/hackers not being dealt with. Why would anyone want to progress by grinding mobs over and over, knowing that your work wasnt unique/worth it anymore. It has been allowed to go on for so long cuz the mmorpg market is dry, and BDO does offer a solid groundwork from combat to vast open world. But a community can only take an amount of BS from publisher/devs for so long..

    If Ashes stays true to their model and bring the best of both worlds it will thrive, even if pvp is a dominant factor. We need this as people are bored of the same old and no risk.
  • Cmon live a little.
    You havent lived until you get ganked and you lose everything.
    It prepares you for real life,  when my ex-wife ganked me for everything I had ,  I was just like .....' hmmm ok time to repawn again' 
  • Seaber said:
    Nefelia said:
    We've established that:
    - there are no incentives for random open-world murder.
    - there are, in fact, serious penalties for random open-world murder.
    It is false to say there are no incentives, as players who die drop a percentage of carried raw materials.

    While there can be serious penalties for a corrupt character dying, there are also greater penalties for a character dying as a non-combatant than as a combatant.

    Choosing to not fight back and letting your character be killed* is choosing to lose twice as much exp, durability and raw materials to spite the player that killed them. This could be a source of great strife.

    *Online players are well known for doing things against their self interest just to spite strangers but in general it's the more aggressive players that do so which will be the ones initiating the red vs green fights.
    A fair point.

    There is an incentive to kill some people in the open world, such as gatherers moving a full load via mule. But that is not so much random murder as it is a lethal mugging by a bandit. ;)

    I'm sure that looting will take place, and this is something that gatherers will need to plan for in order to avoid bandits. I'm personally fine with this element since it is a good reflection of reality.

    Criminals exist, but they don't operate without incentives and benefit/risk analyses (unless they are dumb as dirt). This is true in reality, and hopefully IS can make it so for AoC as well.
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