Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
The devs have already said there will be leaderboards with metrics.
I won't refuse to group with elitists who try to tell me how to play.
Metrics won't change that.
Countless times have I PMed someone to join a group for a relatively easy raid or dungeon for them to turn around and demand a certain DPS level or item level and I've just laughed at them for being silly - just because people use things like DPS and iLvl in stupid ways doesn't mean that they are intrinsically bad and it doesn't make them any less useful.
Sometimes you just want to play a casual group and work through an instance and sometimes you want to play through with a more serious group at a higher level that can all perform to a certain standard.
If people weren't being discriminated based on their performance levels then it would simply be something else that is an even worse indicator of utility like their equipment, guild or class.
If I was looking for people to join me in a raid I'd discriminate against a naked player with a wooden sword in the same way I'd discriminate against a player that somehow only manages to output 200 dps when essentially anyone else with similar gear should be able to do 10x better, that's not being 'elitist' like some people claim, that's just common sense.
When it comes to things like HPS, DPS and aggro they are all going to be things that matter and simply hiding the numbers from players isn't going to change that fact.
Yes.
Best way to see what and how things work together. It can be turned on and off depending and preference. It will all be out eventually available on google. I prefer to see it in action, in-game. I'm notr a min/maxer by any means. I definitely like information and choice though.
A rogue stupefying an enemy with poison or holding a foe in CC is not going to show on the DPS meters, but might be a vital mechanic in a fight.
A fighter skillfully deflecting spells may be the difference between victory and defeat. This will not show on the DPS meters.
A cleric dodging attacks or choosing to supplicate to the gods in the heat of battle when all hope seems lost, may save the day with a clutch divine intervention. This will not show on the HPS meters.
I hope that glorious feats are the main focus of encounter design, rather than easy theme-park mechanics that are based around numbers on the screen. This kind of thing is as interesting to me as tracking a football game on a spreadsheet.
I've heard, and can understand the desire for meters in the game, for those players who like to track their progress in an numerically analytical fashion.
But, even with good intentions, the tool has a high propensity to lead to toxicity between players, and elitism, simply because, over time, players become over reliant on such tools to "compete at the highest level", as opposed to simply enjoying the content.
Hmm... Are we talking about group metrics here or Personal combat logs?
I am FOR personal combat logs. Against group combat logs.
Killer/Achiever is very different playstyle than Explorer/Socializer.
I join groups primarily to socialize - not to kill uber stuff.
As long as we're having fun, I don't care how efficient the group is or if we successfully complete the dungeon The dungeons won't be disappearing any time soon.
Usually it's possible to find a winning strategy with the the people in the group - just might take a while.
That naked player with a wooden spoon, might be a lot of fun to have along.
Of course, for Socializers, RP trumps kills.
Elitists are all about the kills and being uber.
Any raid leader worth their salt will know when CC is needed, when healing is needed in certain ways, when ads need burned down, etc.
If the raid leader is basing everything off pure DPS then that's an issue with the raid leader not being very good, not an issue with damage meters so I don't exactly why you'd not want them in the game.
Just because some people fail to see the subtlety behind the numbers shouldn't preclude everyone else from being able to use them in a more sensible manner.
Ashes of Creation, as far as I understand is a semi sandbox game with a flexible class system where players can express themselves, figure out what they prefer to play, come up with interesting builds. It allow players the freedom to experience, try, fail, succeed and amuse themselves.
To allow that freedom to players, it is important to not have a DPS meter. DPS meter is a Performance meter: I think its very useful in a game like World of Warcraft, because, the class system in WOW is not flexible, but would be very detrimental in a game like Ashes.
If there is a performance meters, it will eventually be expected from DPSer to perform a certain number of damage, reducing their role to damage dealing only (not controling or bringing other kind of utility), it will enclose healers/tanks to certains build, that include DPS buffs to their team, or more DPS.
This will lead to cookie cutter builds, Community that enforce certain playstyle upon other players, Community that whine on forums for classes balance, forcing the developers to do like Blizzard did in WOW, and like Zenimax is about to do in ESO, catering all classes in such a way that we lose diversity and variety for more balance.
Performance meters only lead to the same consequences: Lose of Freedom, Cookie Cutter build, Toxic community, Classe balance that eventually remove flavour and difference from classes.
For those reasons, I'm strongly in favour of NO PERFORMANCE METER, to allow the community more freedom, more fun, more variety. Elites players will find their way to be the best anyway, regardless. It is not a tool needed.
Having damage metres isn't going to stop more casual players having fun, it's not going to stop people from grouping up and playing with each other - at the very most it will mean that more serious players have a tool to find other more serious players that want to perform at a higher level rather than socialise and goof around.
I'm not a massive raider at all but I can at least see the value in DPS/healing metrics available to the players that want to make use of them whether for bettering themselves or trying to find other high performing friend
In the games I've played, and with the players with whom I've played, this "minimum necessary skill/gear" mindset is not a factor. I've been in high-level dungeons and raids where some members carried others, because we all had fun playing with each other. In each of these situations, those who could, did more, and where we could, we built up the "lesser" players; either by helping with gear, or helping with ability, so that all could enjoy the encounter.
I can't begin to answer your question, because my mind doesn't function, on this, in the same way yours does. I do realize you're probably much younger than I am, and I am aware you've probably never been a part of a group that functions the way most of my and my friends' groups tend to function. I realize you've probably never really studied, intensely, a boss encounter so you can help your "lesser" friend succeed where they kept failing; not to beat the encounter, but to give your "lesser" friend the feeling of having contributed to the whole of the encounter.
Again, it's a difference of mindset. I've much experience with yours; I don't know you've much experience with mine.
We all have room for improvement, Including you and I. Rudeness can be dealt with but it doesn't have to be put up with and there are many ways to deal with it. If a person has to be rude and insulting he doesn't need to be in a group leadership role. It mainly shows his insecurities in dealing with people in constructive ways. Putting people on ignore is one way to put up with chat ignorance and rudeness. Good healers or tanks leaving a party or raid in the lurch when others are being bashed and embarrassed or just out right rude is another. No one has to "deal with people being mean" in a game or real life.
Cylver
See, I will always play my healers from the ground up. I don't play a healer "class" as a dps until max level, and then need a guide or whatever to switch over to being an uber leet healer, nor a guide to explain to me which spells are time-heavy, which are mana-heavy, and so on.
Because I play my healers as healers from the ground up, I actually know my timers intimately. New gear typically is chosen based on a stat I wish to increase; once upon a time, I stacked Sp, for instance, which increased the mana regen rate, rather than Int, which increased the pool. So on and so forth. I didn't do this because it was what was reported to work best, I did it because in my experience with my character, I knew it was best to support my playstyle.
I will always disagree that a meter is a necessary way of knowing one's abilities as a player.
I, for one, do not enjoy people telling me how I should be playing my character. People should be able to play in an environment where they can fashion they're character to their preference, without feeling pressured, or pigeon holed, to spec their character the "correct way".
Why would anyone need numbers? You can see if you're doing good or bad in game. That's all that should matter.
I'm not a serious raider by any stretch and WoW alone I played for over a decade in an RP-PvP guild, I mainly get my kicks from PvP or casual PvE so don't think that I'm a player that lives by DPS meters at all just because I'm defending their inclusion in the UI toolset.
Although some players like yourself play it purely for fun and goofing around I'm also very aware that it's a competitive game with PvP at its core and many people play it in a more serious manner, achieving the rarest achievements, doing the highest damage and slaying the hardest bosses is how they have their fun and being able to monitor their healing, CC and damage in the raid is all part and parcel of the experience of getting cooler gear and bettering themselves as much as they can.
Being able to see how you square up to other members in raids, seeing which encounters you fall behind in etc. is all part of the fun for a lot of players and if you don't personally like it and would prefer to play in a more casual manner then nobody is going to exactly force you to use damage meters.
There are times when bringing in poorly geared guildies to teach them encounters and get them geared up to move to harder content is fine but there are also times where players want to beat the hardest bosses and fight through the hardest dungeons and it's quite often not possible when you're effectively dragging dead weight with you, even worse would it be when you're unable to find out who the ineffective players are.
In an ideal world everyone would play fantastically, everyone would contribute a good amount to an encounter and everyone would bring something useful to the table but in the real world that simply isn't the case, often I've been in a raid or dungeon with a random group of players that is wiping over and over again purely because some player or two isn't able to play their character well enough.
I don't think it's even remotely fair to expect the other 30+ people to suffer failure after failure and spend hours of their time because some people would rather pretend that everyone is able to contribute to every encounter rather than concede that some people simply just don't bring much to the table.
You are aware that people enjoy different things and find different things fun but you basically don't want them to be able to experience the game in that way because you personally don't like it, I think that's fundamentally selfish considering their use of meters wouldn't impact your game-play in any way.
It's less about denying others "their" preferred playstyle, much as you may think that, as it is wishing to protect an as-yet unborn community. With the demand for DPS meters an element of elitism and toxicity is introduced. There is no way to avoid that, I think that has also been mentioned, something along the lines of "Well, while it can be used that way, that's not the way I wish to use it."
The mere fact of its existence would change the game that I believe the devs are trying to create, and it is that game that has drawn me forward, much like the proverbial fly to honey. It is that hope which drives this dislike; I hope for a game that values community, and I fear an element that would disrupt the potential community. Is that selfish? Yep, I'd have to say it is, since I sincerely wish to be a part of that game and that community, not one which is driven by toxicity and elitism.
I was talking with @Possum while he was home for lunch, and had another perspective on the "need" for damage/heal meters.
I am a Licensed Massage Therapist, and a Neuromuscular Therapist. What's this mean? This means I've gone through school to obtain the knowledge and training to help people, whether it's to help people relax, to rest better, or to fix their shoulderblade that keeps drifting away from their spines.
The skills I learned from school are nothing, however, without the experience I am now gaining in successfully reading my clients as they are under my hands. Did their faces grimace in pain? Then I need to vary my touch, to not harm them. Did I feel their muscles relax under my touch? Good, we're on the right path, continue on this way.
Further, I've had to learn my own body, its abilities and disabilities. I have Fibromyalgia. This is a second career for me, so I'm 48 years old. This means I have less (grin) STAM, AGI and HP available for my work. This means I have to learn how to work smarter, rather than harder; especially if I wish to have any long-standing career in this field.
In short, I'm having to learn what my abilities are, obtain training for them to let them grow, as well as combine them with my real-world, hands-on experience to find the "best path" for most of my clients. My "crit heals" occur when my clients can move their heads again, or when they get off my table feeling refreshed, after they came into my studio as frazzled wrecks.
In all of these endeavors, I have no numbers I can rely on to make my judgments. I have no green numbers floating around my clients' heads; I have no visual of my STAM/AGI or HP. I just have to learn these things, and cater my sessions to obtain the best results.
The biggest difference between a Themepark game, and a Sandbox game, is one of objective. In a Themepark game, we play to beat something. We play to achieve. In a Sandbox, it's a bit different; we play to be a part of the world around us. To grow within that world. In my life, my growth isn't valued or devalued by numbers, it's valued or devalued by my abilities, and my husbanding of those abilities. In a Sandbox game, I feel it's much the same, and the community that derives from that will be, of necessity, a different thing than that found in a Themepark.
Again, I will state that yes, I'm selfish. I desire to spend my time and my money in a game that, I feel, more closely reflects living, and less closely reflects things that can lead to toxicity and elitism within that community. So I see my stance not as a denial of what you want -- there are games aplenty which offer that. I see my stance more as one of hope for a game that, currently, doesn't exist, and one of protection of that hope.
And, it's that "competetive" atmosphere, as opposed to community atmosphere, that lends itself to the elitism, toxicity, and general ass-hattery, many posters are referring to.
@Isende posted brilliantly about this, earlier. I've seen where this leads, in games like WoW. Where each class is engrossed in competition against the other, in regards to who''s doing the most dps/hps, or who's the best at damage mitigation, cc's and such. Then, the complaint's come rolling in when one class feels trumped by another, etc etc etc. Then, the devs wind up in an endless struggle to make all classes as close to one another as possible, so as not to upset the others.