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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
As for people bullying the numbers out of people, I've seen tons of bullies still finding a way to bully without metrics in online games (e.g. complain about someone's build or choice of itemization etc.), so would metrics really exacerbate their ways that much? This question isn't directed at anyone in particular.
Also, it'd be nice to have leaderboards for world events and PVP because then you'd know what you have to aim for in certain areas like (most dps, most healed, most tanked, most enemy catapults destroyed etc.), especially if the devs go with a system where there are tiered rewards for contributions in siege battles, world boss fights, and so forth.
I can't say, ever, that all people who use meters are wrong or bad, and I've striven very hard to stay away from that. But unfortunately, my own experiences and the experiences of friends and loved ones (yes, I love many of the people I've gamed with over the years; additionally, we're kinda a gaming family
As has also been pointed out to me (thanks, @Dygz), there will always be methods people can use to be toxic and hateful.
I can't change my opinion on this, but I can hope that whatever comes to pass, we strive, as a community, to promote and build community, rather than elitism.
Thank you for your thoughtful words, @Virtek.
Basically, I don't PvP unless I really feel in the mood. I do raid, and find it quite enjoyable under the right circumstances. But my competitiveness is vastly different, say, than yours, @Rosco. How do I mean?
By "competitive" you indicate strictly a competition between players. Whether it's PvP play where one wins and one dies, or it's raiding for the highest scores, it's competing against other players. I've heard many arguments about this, specifically that no AI created can outthink what a human can do. As a former programmer and software designer, I can definitely agree with that.
For me, the competition is largely with myself. How can I build my character to be the best healer, or whatever? How can I create her to be a fluid extension of me, and have her still succeed -- and succeed admirably? For me, that doesn't come from the use of meters -- just my personal style. Rather it comes from knowledge, experience, and the ability to alter tasks based on the very real, fast-paced environment I'm currently in. There's my competition, and it's not based on external anything.
But that's just the small picture. The bigger picture is exactly what @Dygz asked; why is it that so many see PvE/"Carebears" as only crafting? Why isn't it understood that we're every bit as entrenched in discovery, lore-exploration, world-exploration, and story content as the "hardcore" players? That for us, though, the focus is different. We don't do the raids, many times, for the leaderboards or the loot, we do the raids because there is story content hidden in them which we wish to experience. Then, you have the "hardcore" players who insist on escaping through cut-scenes, so that if you're a healer in a group or a raid, you don't actually get to experience the content, because the tank and the rest of the group are set on a speed run.
I knew a guy in Rift who had a guild, and he and his guild purposely set themselves to do hardcore dungeons and raids handicapped. Why? Because they wanted to see what their abilities were. They've been known to complete dungeons with only three players, and 10-man raids with five players. Why? Because they wanted to see if they could. They didn't rely on meters or metrics or someone else's instructions; they went in to the dungeon or raid, and they did it. They died lots. They got up and kept getting up.
It is one of my hopes that AoC will, in fact, be a better bridge between the type of player I'm accustomed to playing with, and the "hardcore" community. One where rather than despise each other, we can learn how to work with each other.
As this relate to the OP/post? I think that a reliance on meters will come to be more important than skills, and lead down that icky road. *shrugs* But I think there's a lot more behind the answers to this post/poll than just "what do you want," and I think it's got a great deal to do with age and experience in gaming. Simply put, someone my age remembers fondly when Brumeran was a difficult kill; one you worked diligently to prepare for. One you asked your friends to accompany you on. One you died many times to, only to get up and try again, until you succeeded. Teamwork, in essence, and the willingness to die a few times, in order to succeed as a team, and this was definitely before GS and iLvL and damage meters were in the game.
^^^Read NOPE^^^
Pretty sure that there will be metrics and some will be the kind that many dislike. That is unless IS mindset could be changed.
Just saying that "my group won't browbeat anyone not at the top of their game. All will be welcome." I'm not saying anyone is doing that, BTW but it is about the same as saying "Just don't use the metrics in your group" Fine, yet I think that most people here are against it because we know that even if it won't affect us, it will affect lots of players that come in and play as loners and guildless. So very few are trying to protest for themselves and their future play but rather the future experiences of many other players.
Sadly, I think that there isn't much that can be done to stop the metrics from being there I will just try and be on the lookout for players "LFG for Raid X" and try to steer them towards friendlier Dungeon Delvers that I hope to know well.
No worries. Changing someone's opinion is a goal of discussions like this, but so is simply discussing the topic and making a view point clearly understood by all. There've been some very good points made on all sides and I, like you, simply hope that it works out for the best, in the end. This is a marvelous community so far, and I can't wait to see what comes of it in the coming years.
^.^
maybe a forum glitch?
and that cypher86 isnt me woah.. mind blown
But that would inevitably lead to people bragging about their DPS/HPS/whatever, a general race of numbers and people getting layed off because they "underperformed" in certain circumstances. Then again, you wouldn't want to have a slacker or two who get dragged to progress in a group of dedicated individuals who want to get stuff done.
I also think It can be a good to tool to improve as a group !
Mainly because I like it when I can track my own progress. I admit that there'll probably be a lot of egoistic a$$holes who'll be just showing off, but there will most likely be addons for this anyway so it's better if it's gonna be in-game and maybe in some way possible to turn it off.
the players that want it will find mem/script reads anyway...
I would much rather have official support for meters. that fit with the UI theme and utilty.
Elitism will exist either way. But it's also beneficial to improve.
So it's a yes from me even though I am not particularly fond of screen clutter and toxicity it can generate.
As for the general premise of this thread I'd say I'm for it a few good points have been raised since I last posted. Crafters might enjoy these metrics to gauge their gear and find improvements for crafting said equipment. Like if pattern A is less effective for X builds then pattern B might be more appropriate to produce in greater numbers etc. People like me also like to see the numbers as it allows me to fix issues and re-balance my stats list more efficiently.
It can be done without it but it often takes significantly more time. As for the metrics causing creeps to tell people they suck... Yeah it's gonna happen but regardless of metrics if you have a keen eye for gaming in general you can usually judge whose underperforming. Sadly most elitists do notice these things regardless of personal skill.
The metrics or meters or whatever ends up being actually implemented even leaderboards might slightly increase things problem. It won't end up being any more of a sufferance in general if you ask me though. I'd like so I can help people out who simply had issues gearing up or made mistakes. Heck if that fire mage is trying to kill a fire elemental with fire well I'd like to help the poor guy out lol.
First lets start off with Elitism, the ultimate bane of any gaming community as it puts a sour taste in everyone's mouth regardless if they are one of the Elite or not. There is going to be Elitism in every game, the job of the community and mainly the guilds within them is to foster better game play with tactful words. Let the Elites say what they will in there secluded groups that end up breaking apart due to guild drama with one another... This is your gaming experience and you should learn on your own or with people you wish to learn from how to play your class, you can worry about your own personal responsibility.
Personal responsibility to learn how to play the game, how to play the game means how to maximize your ability to do what you wish for the communities sake or purely your self enjoyment (Which lets be honest, we feel better when we accomplish something on our own merit for multiple people no matter how big of a Solo Player you could be). Cookie Cutters will be present whether you can prove it or not (Which yes, the AoC community will prove it when classes are out every second of the way), it is up to you if you wish to play that or another spec to the max of its ability. There will always be a Spec that does one thing better than the other, please don't have convoluted thoughts on this as it is a simple truth if you want -Difference- in Classes and Specs... Some will Front Load Damage, others will get it at the back end, Some will concentrate on DoTS while others have SMASH damage on long CDs, Get Over It. I have faith there will be mechanics that will not depend on how much damage the rogue can fit in a 300 second window but more so how to create such a long and open window, or perhaps a need to change the terrain.
Meters and Metrics are important to have so there is a quick, easy way to gauge what the player on their character is doing, and if this is being done to maximize damage in a short amount of time then there -is- a right and wrong. Just because you are doing it wrong doesn't mean you are doing it completely ineffectively and more importantly as we get into personal play styles perhaps someone cannot perfect their timing for one rotation, they should simply (if they do not love the spec) try a new rotation and or spec that works with such a rotation. Same applies to healing, there are ways to maximize your healing and minimize your over healing to improve your longevity and effectiveness which will be harder to figure out -without- a metric or meter.
It isn't safe to ignore the simple means to an end regardless if this is a sandbox MMO or not, I expect it to have raiding and one time World Bosses to kill and I want to be at my best to get them down as well as others to do the same so we can get our Crafters their loot to make us better items, clear areas for PvPers to gank me (-_-_|_), and we will get that if we have excellent PvE'ers who use tools to better their progression... As this world will be made for Progressing (nodes).
The Nodes were made to be used for a decent but limited amount of time and not forever which will create a stagnant and boring environment that players will get too use to, get use to -that- fact.
As good as peoples intentions are, eventually it will be used as a tool of elitism and exclusion.
I saw it is ESO.....you can't be in our raid group unless you are doing XXXX damage a sec or healing XXXX amount and was on the recieving end of that bat JUST because of my race/class combo. I do get it to a certain extent because many of the events do require you to burn the boss down in X time of you fail (which is a failing in an of itself, the game requiring elitism, which causes it to not be fun anymore (at least for me))
I did actually bow to that pressure finally and went for a DPS build that allowed me to participate but the character then was not fun to play any time else (he became a good 1 trick pony). This might not be a problem for some but I'm a one character type of person. I might have alts but I "play" one 90% of the time.
Honestly we who played MMO's "before" in game metrics and the like used some real simple tools to find out where we were......go find a relatively tough mob or group of them and kill them and look at the DPS you did and how long it took. If you are doing more and killing quicker, voila! you are improving! In game metrics are a contrived crutch for those unwilling to find solve the problem with other methods.
As good as peoples intentions are, eventually it will be used as a tool of elitism and exclusion.
I saw it in ESO.....you can't be in our raid group unless you are doing XXXX damage a sec or healing XXXX amount and was on the receiving end of that bat JUST because of my race/class combo. I do get it to a certain extent because many of the events do require you to burn the boss down in X time of you fail (which is a failing in an of itself, the game requiring elitism, which causes it to not be fun anymore (at least for me))
I did actually bow to that pressure finally and went for a DPS build that allowed me to participate but the character then was not fun to play any time else (he became a good 1 trick pony). This might not be a problem for some but I'm a one character type of person. I might have alts but I "play" one 90% of the time.
Honestly we who played MMO's "before" in game metrics and the like used some real simple tools to find out where we were......go find a relatively tough mob or group of them and kill them and look at the DPS you did and how long it took. Make some changes and go do it again. If you are doing more and killing quicker, voila! you are improving! In game metrics are a contrived crutch for those unwilling to find solve the problem with other methods.
There is no way that you can use better words to try to make me uber and competitive.
We aren't all interested in maximizing our abilities or being competitive.
I like the idea of a group knowing how each member likes to play well enough that they can effortlessly anticipate their contributions to a battle. I long to be in a group where we synergize tactics like Colossus tossing Wolverine through the air in a Cannonball Special maneuver. Sure.
But, I get a great deal of satisfaction completing a dungeon solo.
In Ashes, I might get greater satisfaction disarming traps and unlocking doors in a dungeon solo, knowing that I've made it easier for a group to slaughter the occupants later.
My Bartle score is: Explorer 87%; Socializer 73%; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
My Achiever rating is probably high enough that I'm kinda interested in seeing my metrics, but I wouldn't care if they weren't available.
I bet that seeing metrics feels much more important to Killer/Achievers and Achiever/Killers.
Explorer/Socializers and Socializer/Explorers probably don't care much about metrics.
We play the same genre, but we aren't all equally interested in the same stuff.
We don't all have the same playstyles and values.
As good as peoples intentions are, eventually it will be used as a tool of elitism and exclusion.
I saw it in ESO.....you can't be in our raid group unless you are doing XXXX damage a sec or healing XXXX amount and was on the receiving end of that bat JUST because of my race/class combo. I do get it to a certain extent because many of the events do require you to burn the boss down in X time of you fail (which is a failing in an of itself, the game requiring elitism, which causes it to not be fun anymore (at least for me))
Edit: fixed some of my inability to properly type.