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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
The fact however is, if the game itself does not have this type of design flaw in it, then there should be no need to have metrics in the game. If you want to see if you are improving there IS a way to do it "old school". Go out and find a tough mob or group of mobs you know you can beat, time it and see what your DPS scores were, change things and go fight them again and compare. Simple.
Personally I like to see the effect of my dps directly. Its a good indicator to see which gear sets or skill rotations work the best. Besides that, it helps to keep improving constantly and I always enjoy the moments when I beat my previously highest dps.
It's not always an "elitist" mindset, but a "preparedness" mindset. I've experienced this in multiple other games, to the point where calling specific examples is silly. We always had to go do more dailies, make more gold to buy better gear, or simply smash through more dungeons/raid bosses/world bosses until we were geared enough to beat the timer.
Note that there are always other ways of gaining gear to do more damage. Only those concerned about fast progression should have to worry about beating the timer, for the most part. If you're a super-competitive person, you'll want to tweak your character and do the most dps possible as soon as possible. If you're a more relaxed and chill person, quick progression shouldn't matter and you can go through the easier/more relaxed methods of gearing up and get to the dps check boss after other people have powered up enough to beat it much easier.
@Virtek You covered the different playstyles quite well.
But, I would say for some people it's combat tactics and strategies that change at max level, rather than playstyle changing.
I think one of the reasons you feel you've missed the toxicity of elitism is because "helping" people reach optimum killing efficiency is closer to your playstyle.
My Bartle Score is Explorer 87%; Socializer 73%; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
It's more important to me to play according to the story role of my character than it is to efficiently kill stuff.
My main in NWO was an Ice Wizard. From my perspective, I had no problems at all duoing to max relying on my Ice spells and ignoring the Repel spells. No problems meaning we would always find a way to overcome the challenges we encountered.
When we started joining larger groups to adventure through endgame dungeons, people started demanding that I use Repel abilities. I would tell them that I'm an Ice Wizard; not a Repel Wizard. And fairly frequently get kicked from the group.
In WoW, my main is a Cat Druid who sometimes uses Tauren form. Some groups would demand that I respec for Treant healing. But Catya is a Cat; not a Treant. Doesn't matter how much more efficient at healing Treant form might be over Cat form. Catya wil transform into a variety of animals, but never a tree.
For me RP always trumps Game.
Metrics are great for people who are interested in efficiently Killing and efficiently Achieving.
I think how important that is will be based on an individual's playstyle.
Doesn't really matter whether you get kicked or walk away, you still have to find another group because someone was being an elitist asshat.
(Even though from their point of view they are just trying to focus on the preparedness based on their playstyle values.)
"Elitists" are super-competitive. (Doesn't necessarily mean all super-competitive MMORPG players are "elitists".)
I get why people like meters. It's fun to see how you're doing and how you stack up against others - whether it's dps, healing, threat, whatever.
I also understand people use them in an elitist or min-max way. Not pulling your weight or too gear is too weak? Out you go.
I can appreciate group or raid leaders may use it to understand why something isn't working - for example: We're weak on healing according to the meters.
Personal meters to see how you're doing I also see value in.
That being said: I hate meters. I don't like the effect they have on game play. Too many times in games with meters I see people step outside of their role or are wasteful with resources so they can top the meters. Rogues or casters that constantly take aggro from the tank because they overdo their DPS so they can be at the top of the chart. Healers that pop off a big heal when it's not required so they can top the heal charts. Tanks that will pull aggro off main tanks so they can get in more "damage received" numbers. It's frustrating as a player and more frustrating as a group or raid leader - even with warnings and occasional kicks people still do it.
I grew up on EQ from it's release where you had none of those resources and no voice chat to tell people what to do. You had to know your role, not step outside it, but be ready to jump in and help if things go sideways. All with minimal communication from raid and group leaders because it took time to type things out. My goal when I played a rogue was to never pull aggro. If I did I failed. That being said, there were times when I knew I had to because my possible death was less significant than someone else's death. Or the short time I could provide relief may keep a tank alive while a heal lands.
Meters, in my opinion, do not show who is a good player - it shows who can exploit what a meter shows. A good player knows how to play. A good player doesn't even have to be particularly great at their role, just willing to try and learn - and you don't need a meter for that.
Agree. That kind of attitude is why I mostly solo nowadays. I dont play much PvP, but when I do, I eagerly tell that Im not used to it. Being met by accusations of not knowing your role or not doing your job good enough in that situation really doesnt help to populate the PvP stuff.
Edit: Meters, wouldnt they also just help to populate players around the "strongest" builds within the know classes, keeping those who want to experiment out ?
The golden line would perhaps to let the players see they output locally, without anyone else to judge the numbers.
In the gaming days of old there were no meters to measure a persons worth. We relied on team work and learning together. That was half the fun and the rewards much more rewarding,
On the for side, I like the ability to analyze my own play or in a constructive environment offer or receive advice from others. Also, I like the ability to check the difference that new items, whatever they may be, make to my character. Another advantage of them is to filter out from my play the players that bring the negativity from the use of them. Not only will I leave a group that focuses negativity on a single character for a difficulty faced by the group, I may place individuals on ignore if it is egregious enough. It is quite hard to get on my ignore list but it is next to impossible to get off.
On the nay side, amongst others, is the intolerance that the metres creates for builds or playstyles that are deemed non-optimal for a result on the metres. With little knowledge of the classes and races I plan right now on playing a Nikua Rogue/Ranger. I understand that this will probably mean I am pushing the rock up hill and I willing to accept that, possibly. Depends on how heavy the rock is and how steep the hill is. As well, the focus on the metres as a path to success may cause splits in the community, on this I will elaborate.
The focus on these metres as the path to success may cause some splits in the community. The focus on dps checks in the design of bosses and raid groups generally leads to focus on a tank and spank perspective in previous games I have played. Group the dps and healers, keep the damage away from this group, stand in one place and ignore the game mechanics, if possible. This also ignores some very intrinsic activities for a group. How does a metre measure who is reviving the fallen, that a buff raised the groups efficiency or a skill used avoided damage and let other group members focus on the goal.
Combat metrics and metres have some interesting benefits and detriments and now I am more confused about whether they are beneficial to a game.
TLDR: I voted yes, this thread made me think and now I am confused.
Their a boon to players like me though who seek to improve with the most accurate data I can get. While it also doesn't actually prevent elitists from putting you down. It's another tool for them to use but they'll feel the need to suppress people with non-maximized builds regardless of what you actually do.
I'm a meta breaker myself and tend to function unique build to compete rather well with meta junk. Even then I've had elitists tell me I wasn't helping while I was pulling most dps in group... It's just how they are is what I'm trying to say I guess.
Also, good on you for sticking with the RP focus! There are those out there that forget that RP makes up 1/3 of the name of the genre. Shouldn't it be allowed to be a focus for playstyles?
Also also, that last bit was perfect. I consider myself highly competitive, but far from elitist. My desire for improvement (in myself and others) is in the interest of getting everyone there, not excluding those that struggle.
As for elitism. Like in cooking where a chef is not measured not by what all he can cook with but by what all he can cook with what he has. You want to be elite start doing raids handicapped to the point where you can do them just as fast as when you where not handicapped... learn how to do things without having to use the easiest cheesiest way, learn how to do without, and you'll do better
I just want to be able to kill stuff if I have to kill stuff. And I am a hardcore time player, so, I don't really care how much time it takes.
I don't know that I necessarily care about chefs.
In my dad's generation, his brothers and cousins knew which of their aunts to go to for the deserts they specialized in: my grandma was cinnamon roles and cakes, one sister was fried pies and the other sister was baked pies.
Can you cook stuff I like? That's really all I care about. Again, time is not a factor for me.
I'd rather hope it's easy for you and enjoyable rather than challenging for you and a grind.
I had not considered the text in bold but yes, that is another negative point I had forgotten about and often saw. DPS dumping to pull the highest numbers while healers would horribly over heal and burn their mana needlessly just to hit the biggest number.
And I hear you. I agree that it is an easy tool and, if that was the only way it was ever used I would be fine with that. We all know however they no matter how good our intentions are, someone will use it for less than altruistic purposes.
I wish we could just "trust" it would not be abused but because it will be I have to err on the side of caution and continue to vote no.
We didn't have all these fancy gimmicks when EQ launched... you WoW era players got spoiled with simplicity.
I like it so that I can measure my progress
It's also good so you know who's pulling your weight, but
it's also used to measure epeen and also to shame those who can't do so well.
I like the metrics but they don't guide how I treat people. =P
I definitely understand that some of the DPS meters actually do account for time frame though. The main thing I build for purpose is burst damage output anyways so I can see your concerns. If I output say 10k damage in 1.5 seconds but have a cooldown period where I'm dealing 1k dps then my overall will be significantly lower. However due to the way I build I use the dps meters to gauge exactly what I can sustain in the event my bursts fail.
Like a boss breaks my burst chain with a stun or something. Well crap I'm out X damage per hit but if I manage to maintain my general dps to a moderate rate... then I'm simply not entirely helpless without my bursts. I get it though most people probably don't use it that way and simply scale as much dps they possibly can baring all else.
As good as peoples intentions are, eventually it will be used as a tool of elitism and exclusion.
I saw it in ESO.....you can't be in our raid group unless you are doing XXXX damage a sec or healing XXXX amount and was on the receiving end of that bat JUST because of my race/class combo. I do get it to a certain extent because many of the events do require you to burn the boss down in X time of you fail (which is a failing in an of itself, the game requiring elitism, which causes it to not be fun anymore (at least for me))
I did actually bow to that pressure finally and went for a DPS build that allowed me to participate but the character then was not fun to play any time else (he became a good 1 trick pony). This might not be a problem for some but I'm a one character type of person. I might have alts but I "play" one 90% of the time.
Honestly we who played MMO's "before" in game metrics and the like used some real simple tools to find out where we were......go find a relatively tough mob or group of them and kill them and look at the DPS you did and how long it took. If you are doing more and killing quicker, voila! you are improving! In game metrics are a contrived crutch for those unwilling to find solve the problem with other methods.