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Would you like to have DPS/Healing metrics available in the game?

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  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
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  • cypher86 said:
    cypher86 said:
    DPS meters are a sign of a themepark mmo, not a sign of a sandbox that is about world development.  This isn't a game where you are doing the same raid every week and it should never be.  Name one sandbox mmo that needs a dps meter?
    You can't forget that this is actually an MMORPG

    Name the dps meters in BDO, SWG and ArcheAge. I'll wait. Just because you've only played themeparks doesn't mean that that themepark rules apply to games with sandbox rules.  Ashes is a sandbox, get used to that fact and learn how to adjust. Sandbox mmos are very different in focus. DPS meters lead to elitism, cookie cutter builds and a focus change from growing and nurturing your node to demanding that the person who is playing a character that is focus on character control has to fill the epeen need to join the dps race. If you want to play WoW, go play WoW, go play FFXIV. There are plenty of themepark mmos to choose from.






    BDO, SWG, and ArcheAge are very disappointing games. Hope an argument wouldn't hinge on the comparison.

    Personally feel that dps/healing meters are useful tools to have. Toxicity in a game is something that needs to be addressed with the playerbase, IMO... leaving out a useful tool because you're worried someone will be elitist overemphasizes one problem and causes another.
  • cypher86 said:
    cypher86 said:
    DPS meters are a sign of a themepark mmo, not a sign of a sandbox that is about world development.  This isn't a game where you are doing the same raid every week and it should never be.  Name one sandbox mmo that needs a dps meter?
    You can't forget that this is actually an MMORPG

    Name the dps meters in BDO, SWG and ArcheAge. I'll wait. Just because you've only played themeparks doesn't mean that that themepark rules apply to games with sandbox rules.  Ashes is a sandbox, get used to that fact and learn how to adjust. Sandbox mmos are very different in focus. DPS meters lead to elitism, cookie cutter builds and a focus change from growing and nurturing your node to demanding that the person who is playing a character that is focus on character control has to fill the epeen need to join the dps race. If you want to play WoW, go play WoW, go play FFXIV. There are plenty of themepark mmos to choose from.






    BDO, SWG, and ArcheAge are very disappointing games. Hope an argument wouldn't hinge on the comparison.

    Personally feel that dps/healing meters are useful tools to have. Toxicity in a game is something that needs to be addressed with the playerbase, IMO... leaving out a useful tool because you're worried someone will be elitist overemphasizes one problem and causes another.
  • Updated original post.
  • Others have mentioned the reason why I voted against.

    As good as peoples intentions are, eventually it will be used as a tool of elitism and exclusion.

    I saw it in ESO.....you can't be in our raid group unless you are doing XXXX damage a sec or healing XXXX amount and was on the receiving end of that bat JUST because of my race/class combo. I do get it to a certain extent because many of the events do require you to burn the boss down in X time of you fail (which is a failing in an of itself, the game requiring elitism, which causes it to not be fun anymore (at least for me))

    I did actually bow to that pressure finally and went for a DPS build that allowed me to participate but the character then was not fun to play any time else (he became a good 1 trick pony). This might not be a problem for some but I'm a one character type of person. I might have alts but I "play" one 90% of the time.

    Honestly we who played MMO's "before" in game metrics and the like used some real simple tools to find out where we were......go find a relatively tough mob or group of them and kill them and look at the DPS you did and how long it took. If you are doing more and killing quicker, voila! you are improving! In game metrics are a contrived crutch for those unwilling to find solve the problem with other methods.
    Give me back the days of  old!  Talent. abilities, and team effort counted NOT meters.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    xantham said:
    cypher86 said:
    cypher86 said:
    DPS meters are a sign of a themepark mmo, not a sign of a sandbox that is about world development.  This isn't a game where you are doing the same raid every week and it should never be.  Name one sandbox mmo that needs a dps meter?
    You can't forget that this is actually an MMORPG

    Name the dps meters in BDO, SWG and ArcheAge. I'll wait. Just because you've only played themeparks doesn't mean that that themepark rules apply to games with sandbox rules.  Ashes is a sandbox, get used to that fact and learn how to adjust. Sandbox mmos are very different in focus. DPS meters lead to elitism, cookie cutter builds and a focus change from growing and nurturing your node to demanding that the person who is playing a character that is focus on character control has to fill the epeen need to join the dps race. If you want to play WoW, go play WoW, go play FFXIV. There are plenty of themepark mmos to choose from.







    cypher86 said:
    cypher86 said:
    DPS meters are a sign of a themepark mmo, not a sign of a sandbox that is about world development.  This isn't a game where you are doing the same raid every week and it should never be.  Name one sandbox mmo that needs a dps meter?
    You can't forget that this is actually an MMORPG

    Name the dps meters in BDO, SWG and ArcheAge. I'll wait. Just because you've only played themeparks doesn't mean that that themepark rules apply to games with sandbox rules.  Ashes is a sandbox, get used to that fact and learn how to adjust. Sandbox mmos are very different in focus. DPS meters lead to elitism, cookie cutter builds and a focus change from growing and nurturing your node to demanding that the person who is playing a character that is focus on character control has to fill the epeen need to join the dps race. If you want to play WoW, go play WoW, go play FFXIV. There are plenty of themepark mmos to choose from.






    So much salt in this post. We're in dev stage, it's an open poll with an optional suggestion. Seriously mate, rather than saying "if you don't like it leave", how about you be open to suggestions, and if you don't like the fact that this is the avenue for people to suggest things, and you don't have anything constructive to say, then perhaps its best to say nothing.
    Actually Steven already mentioned that features like what is being requested are not going to be in the game.

    Second, this isn't a themepark mmo. Asking for this feature is no different from PVE only players asking for PVE only servers in a game that requires PVP for the world to function properly.  Many times they are guided to the games that they should be playing, like FFXIV.

    So I'm doing the same. Ashes is not an A-Z raid grinder and never will be.The game is about building up the world and its cities and civilizations.  Not going on endless raids one after another.  By building up the cities, new dungeons and raids open. Many of us will be doing raids to further our nodes and their features, not looking at some stopwatch like its some sort of horse race.

    Again, this not a sandbox feature. It doesn't belong in one. If you've never played a sandbox mmo before and can't understand how the feature doesn't fit, I suggest playing a sandbox mmo before the game launches.
  • Ashes is a themebox.
    And we know that Ashes will have leaderboards for combat.
    So, metrics...though perhaps not meters.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    When the enemy stops fighting back or moving, you probably done enough DPS.
    If your allies are still standing at the end of it all, you probably done enough healing.
    Anything else is just a dick measuring contest for the competitive types who need to be 'the best'.
    The ones that need to look down upon everyone else from their mountain top.
    They can stay lonely at the top of the mountain feeling awesome about themselves.
    The rest of us will just get on with stuff enjoying the moment together.

    What if you need to check the enemy is dead, rather than be told ? Woudlnt that be more exciting and fun and scary ?
  • In real life, we have numerous ways to gauge how well we're doing we're doing in combat which aren't available in games, yet.
    Meters are a way to compensate for that lack of info.
    Which is why we have health bars.

    If we're talking meters rather than metrics, it's really a matter of how many meters.
  • I don't want to see any metered metrics on my DPS. It spoils the fun of it when they announce it after every battle. Killing the mob is the fun bit not looking at how much each person contributed
  • Dygz said:
    Ashes is a themebox.
    And we know that Ashes will have leaderboards for combat.
    So, metrics...though perhaps not meters.
    Leaderboards for arena combat I am sure but not siege combat.  
    Therefore I see no reason for meters in the overall game beyond arena competition if that's the only way someone can measure their worth at fighting.

    I believe it was Rift where I was a cleric and a young dps guildmate wanted to know why it was so hard for him to kill clerics in PvP.   I never stand around an duel. I made an exception with him.  After several attempts he still lost.  I told him there was a way through skill and abilities he could kill me and to go practice while I was way on vacation.  On my return a week later this young fella won our first duel!   It was a matter of learning how to use skills not meters.   
  • I'm expecting leaderboards after dungeons as well - like in NWO. And after Monster Coin events.

    Health and mana bars are meters, so again, it's a matter of how many meters.
  • I said no. But sometimes it is nice to see if your doing better dmg with crits vs dots for example. But ultimately i wouldnt want it because flat numbers are good enough for my progression and seeing the mobs die faster is a good indication i got better. And even though the op said all what not abbout the asshats. I still wouldnt want to encourage them or make it easier in anyway. Though im a minmaxer. To each their own. I dont need a counter to tell me i got a better item/stats. And often i dont play the meta classes/builds so again. Wouldnt help me anymore than i help myself. 
    But thats just me
  • I'm Sorry to have to point out @Rabbit_Games, but once you post a poll, changing the meaning of it afterwards, just because there are people who felt differently from you isn't exactly the best way to go. 
    I and others in the community obviously thought it to mean, should one exist as an entity for the community, not our personal individual preferences.

    And yes, I totally agree, some people will always be asshats, but it will however be easier for them to be asshats if you give them a hat made from the buttock leather of a giraffe.

  • Gimme some sweet numbers 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Dygz said:
    Ashes is a themebox.
    And we know that Ashes will have leaderboards for combat.
    So, metrics...though perhaps not meters.
    Semantics

    The point is that the themepark functions of the game are all based on its sandbox elements. Gages like meters only matter in a case where you are repeating the same dungeon/raid/instance over and over again. Which has no bearing in a game like Ashes if we aren't even all seeing the same raids/dungeons/instances because of our respective nodes opening up different versions.

    What is the point of measuring your raid clear time against others who aren't even going to see the same raid that *your* node opened?  

    I'll also ask this, do you want to be involved with a node that as "leets" who kick people out of siege defensive groups because said person doesn't do enough dps? What if that person focused on being a pure healer? Or going for a pure cc role, stunlocking enemy players to keep a siege attempt in chaos? The last thing I want is to be around a bunch of themepark minded players who are more focused on clearing raids instead of helping to develop and protect the local node.

    I'll say it again, meters like these do nothing but force people (who may be specialists in their own right) into playing a certain way. I'm not saying that people shouldn't get good. I am saying that themepark efficiency mindsets have no place in a game with sandbox elements - because the game focus is different, therefore the same efficiency mindsets of a themepark is not the same as efficiency in a sandbox mmo. Especially one with RTS elements.
  • I went with no, I'd rather have fun playing the game than playing the game mechanics.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Maquiame said:
    Dygz said:
    Ashes is a themebox.
    And we know that Ashes will have leaderboards for combat.
    So, metrics...though perhaps not meters.
    Semantics

    The point is that the themepark functions of the game are all based on its sandbox elements. Gages like meters only matter in a case where you are repeating the same dungeon/raid/instance over and over again. Which has no bearing in a game like Ashes if we aren't even all seeing the same raids/dungeons/instances because of our respective nodes opening up different versions.

    What is the point of measuring your raid clear time against others who aren't even going to see the same raid that *your* node opened?  

    I'll also ask this, do you want to be involved with a node that as "leets" who kick people out of siege defensive groups because said person doesn't do enough dps? What if that person focused on being a pure healer? Or going for a pure cc role, stunlocking enemy players to keep a siege attempt in chaos? The last thing I want is to be around a bunch of themepark minded players who are more focused on clearing raids instead of helping to develop and protect the local node.

    I'll say it again, meters like these do nothing but force people (who may be specialists in their own right) into playing a certain way. I'm not saying that people shouldn't get good. I am saying that themepark efficiency mindsets have no place in a game with sandbox elements - because the game focus is different, therefore the same efficiency mindsets of a themepark is not the same as efficiency in a sandbox mmo. Especially one with RTS elements.
    It's not semantics.
    Ashes has aspects of both Themepark and Sandbox.
    I like to see how well I've done regardless of whether I'm going to repeat the same dungeon/raid/instance. Really has nothing to do with repeating the same content.

    I don't particularly care about clear time. Those aren't the only metrics.

    I don't group with leets. I group with people I have fun grouping with.
    And, since I'm a casual player, that means grouping with people who don't care about efficiency - but not caring about efficiency doesn't mean there is 0 interest in comparing encounter contributions with other player characters and measuring our own performances to help us improve in areas where we hope to improve.

    Ashes is a themebox, so you should probably expect to encounter themepark-minded players as well as sandbox-minded players.
    For certain, some players will be more focused on clearing raids than protecting the local node. Regardless of metrics or meters.

    You can say things as many times as you wish.
    Doesn't what you say true.
    People force people into playing a certain way. That will also happen regardless of metrics or meters.

    Again, Ashes is a themebox.
    So, you should expect the playerbase to have themepark mindsets as well as sandbox mindsets - and features and mechanics that support both.
    The focus of the game may different from traditional MMORPGs. Efficiency may even be significantly different.
    In Ashes, there will still be players who are interested in gauging their performance. Because the desire to gauge performance via metrics isn't all about efficiency.
  • I would prefer not to have my damage/healing show up. No health bars on enemies either, nor see their level. I just want visual clues. 

    Example:

    I see a bear, I decide to (perhaps foolishly) take it on, and sling a spell at it. I barely see it being affected, it just shrugs it off and goes straight for me. Okay, perhaps I am ill-equipped to take on this bear. I will come back later.
  • But you should be able to see some effect - wounds or burning or signs of disease or signs of fatigue or starvation.
    In real life, we have many, many signs of how we are affecting targets of attack.
    Signs that are too complex to display with out current level of tech - which is why we still rely on health bars.
  • Dygz said:
    But you should be able to see some effect - wounds or burning or signs of disease or signs of fatigue or starvation.
    In real life, we have many, many signs of how we are affecting targets of attack.
    Signs that are too complex to display with out current level of tech - which is why we still rely on health bars.
    I disagree. Quantifying injury IRL based on so-called signs is extremely vague! My wife has 25 years of nursing experience including experience as a medic in the military and can attest to this. What would 25% or 50% health even mean IRL anyway?? 

    The whole idea of quantifying things in games is born from tabletop games like D&D where things were necessarily simplified so the games can be played with basic mental calculations.

    Even with the enormous computational power available today, these legacy notions have been carried forward without question. Just because RPGs have always done it like this, is no reason for Ashes to follow suit. Quite the opposite in my opinion.
  • I would definitely like the meters, just to be able to see how much I have contributed, and if there was a way for me to perform better (I am a healer usually, so its important that you know you are carrying your own weight).
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    It's actually about qualifying signs of injury. And the only way to do that is via signs.
    In real life, a wide variety of signs - but it's all signs and signals.
    That is the only way for the brain to comprehend anything.

    Doesn't really matter what 25% health or 50% health means in real life.
    What matter is that, in the game, it gives enough information to help people devise and adapt strategies during combat. Both in terms of self-preservation and in terms of which opponents are most vulnerable.

    Signs don't necessarily have to be displayed in terms of numbers.
    Doom and several modern games also show the damage received from foes and imminent death with visuals like accumulating blood spatter on the edges of the screen.
    But, even in real life, it's easy to ignore signs of poor health when there is no pain.
    Which is why it's helpful for games to also have a meter which displays percentage in the form of a health bar - and that's even better when it's accompanied by a pulsing controller that mimics a heartbeat to warn of imminent death.

    Humans are extremely visual and, in a game that lacks other senses -especially pain and tactile fatigue- meters are currently the best way to provide the necessary info.
    Especially with the current tech.
    As tech improves, we will be able to share the necessary info via more realistic tells.
    (Same is true for the necessity of nameplates to distinguish individual characters.)

  • Megs said:
    I'm Sorry to have to point out @Rabbit_Games, but once you post a poll, changing the meaning of it afterwards, just because there are people who felt differently from you isn't exactly the best way to go. 
    I and others in the community obviously thought it to mean, should one exist as an entity for the community, not our personal individual preferences.

    And yes, I totally agree, some people will always be asshats, but it will however be easier for them to be asshats if you give them a hat made from the buttock leather of a giraffe.

    I did no such thing. All I did was re-word it to try and make it more clear.
    This Poll was ALWAYS about whether or not you wanted to be able to track your own progress. I re-worded it because people fail at reading-- they assumed I was asking if they wanted to deal with people using those numbers against them.
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