Ashes of Creation - "Dear Intrepid, Let's Talk About Your Combat System.."

ArchivedUser

This thing that i liked the most was the timer bar, it would requiere skill to use it properly.
Now i think that there are a lot of things that can be improved, like the general feeling of the combat be too slow (when the character is knocked down it takes an eternity to get back up) some character animations are really wooden an can be better IMHO, but overall i think that they put a great show in a very short time, we have to remember that this is the earliest build of the game, and it can get only better   

Keep doing an awesome job intrepid, i´m really looking forward to play your game ASAP!

ArchivedUser

That is some of the most slow and boring combat I've ever seen. That stupid bar is sure going to be fun if you have any kind of latency lol

ArchivedUser

Althor said:

I could see this leading to more standing in fire and other hazards. 

This is good point imo and especially in situations where lots of AoE templates are landed on the ground. Two options.. leads to lots of ruined combos, because you have to constantly move away or people will get lots of hits because they focus on that sliding bar and tries to complete the combos.

Now someone pointed out that the melee chatacters will easily suffer more of this combo system, because its easier to move away from their melee range than from ranged dps'. How this will be in balance?

These points concerns me. I dont say there wont be any solution, but i hope these possible problems are well noticed by devs.

ArchivedUser

I'm not a huge fan of Quick Time Events or timed skill events in combat because they're rarely done in a way that feels natural and native to your interface with the character and game. I'm especially not a fan of the horizontal slider method because that pulls your view down to the UI and not on the field of combat.

I'm more of a fan of reactive events and I think those should come from visual feedback at the focal point of combat or on the target itself. Something that doesn't detract from mobility and managing contacts on the battle grid.

The one single player game I love and remember where the QTEs were not only done well, but were fun was "Legend of the Dragoon" which was a PS1 title. The entire combat system was built on that. The timed events led to more powerful skill tiers and effects.

LotRO had a form of them with a group based skill event called a "conjunction". Each player had to perform a timed color and pattern based timed contribution. Players loved the idea of it, but the system didn't scale or age well. Dragon's Prophet had some that were almost well done but it just ended up clunky.

I mention those examples because I've only seen this sort of system work well in a handful of single player games and never smoothly in an mmo. But it's an early drat of the system. There is a lot of time to figure out better ways of interacting in that way if Intrepid wants to keep the intent of the system. It's just that videos I've seen of that so far have me thinking, yeah I don't think so.

ArchivedUser

mycroft said:

On the video, it is possible to have fast paced combat without an auto attack.  For example, WIldstar.

UnknownSystemError said:

That over the course of development, while the idea behind the system will NOT change

This worries me.  If the idea behind combat is one button (and it is one button, your other five skills are situational at best) with QTEs to eventually unlock a second button then something needs to change, because this is a bad idea to base your system on.  It also makes it clear why they were so tight lipped about this third aspect, because if this had been known during the funding efforts then it would have hurt significantly.

By the way, in case it wasn't clear, my problem isn't with the bar.  Changing the bar to a visual cue or something else will still be a QTE, and single button QTE combat isn't interesting.  Give us some tough choices.  Give us ways to differentiate builds.  Give us a better measure of skill than "who's auto hot key script is better?" 

They have said there will be many different ways to build your character. Choosing which skills to put on your bar will be tough. Your weapons and armor will determine how you fight. Builds will have lots of depth because of augments and the limited action bar. Getting the QTE correct every single time is obviously not important to winning a battle. If you are skilled with the other 10ish abilities you will have access to you shouldn't have a problem in combat. The skill of the combat comes from knowing when to use your abilities and having synergy with your team.

Everyone is acting like the QTE is the be-all-end-all of the combat system when it really is only a small part of it. I am actually getting tired of hearing about it. Intrepid has already come out and said they are working on making it more visually pleasing/manageable and if they continuing getting massive amounts of negative feedback about the mechanic (from people who are actually testing it)  then they might scrap it (the scrapping part I read in another thread from a guy who talked to Steven at Pax). 

ArchivedUser

I don't like the idea of perfectly timing the button press to get a combo off properly. It hurts people with lag, hurts people who aren't skilled at timing random presses perfectly, forces people to look too much at whatever UI element they change it to, and in general just doesn't look fun.

If they want combo attacks they can do something like Aion's Chain Skills or TERA's combo system (first few years these games were out - I don't know what they're like now). Aion had a system where the first few skills in a combo happened automatically with just additional button presses and the skill on your bar would continually update to the next skill in the chain. Eventually they would branch and you'd have a couple seconds of both choices showing up on screen (or on your bar if you put the second, not default choice on your bar) to hit the skill before it would reset back to the first one. TERA had combos that also had that visual icon on screen with a couple of seconds to hit it before the combo chance went away. Both games I believe had different cooldowns for the various skills so it wasn't like you could spam the same combos over and over.

Point being, allowing a couple of seconds to hit a combo is a much better way to do a timed combo than perfectly hitting a moving bar - and as a side benefit, it also allows players to move a bit if need be before hitting the next combo. The current iteration reminds me of some of the unfun BDO mini games and I can't imagine how irritating it would get long term every time you were in combat. The Aion/TERA systems are much more friendly to various player skill levels, lag, and doesn't force people to watch the UI because you can easily remember the timing of it. It feels dynamic, fun, and fast as well. Both also allowed for some choice either in combat or before on which combo branches to go with based on the situation so there's skill there as well. Just food for though on better ways to do the combo thing.

ArchivedUser

Emo said:

I'd rather be engaged in the fight and watching my avatar than a bar.  If the moment to hit a combo was reflected in an action my character makes or a change in their look, that would be better than watching for it on a bar or slide or whatever other external means they come up with.  Make my character rage or show me in some way that a combo is available.  I also want the fight to feel very fluid using both my keys and mouse buttons.  

I completely agree.
I understand those who want the combat to include skills and attention.
But I don't want the main focus of the combat to be on a little slider I have to time right. Especially in PVP, the Focus should be more on the other players, tactics, reading the moves and positioning in the battle. I also kind of want to enjoy the graphics, animations and combat. That timing of the slider seem like a very bad idea, that take focus away from enjoying the combat.
I agree, it should not be a button mashing system - but there must be a better way.

ArchivedUser

Several games have had some sort of iteration of this mechanic.  The system needs to have a solid and scaling plan to ensure that it does not become an afterthought.  As the game progresses, the need to min/max will be key for most high level players.  If the bonus from this mechanics does not provide a significant boost to the skill used, it will become another item that players will need to find a way to bypass through macros. 

ArchivedUser

Personally, this type of combat/gameplay minigame could be related to spell. Like on some spell if u hit it again after a moment it does extra damage. On every spell it's to much. It make u stare at the ui.  Charge and realease spell could be fun too. I personally think a more action oriented combat could be more fun. Tera did a greath job a taking whats good from tab targeting but upgrading it to a m9dern take. Bdo and blade and soul were greath too. (although to many combo become extremely confusing.) Even wow is trying to move away from this slow paced type of combat with the deamon hunter. 

ArchivedUser

Combat looked a lot better on day 2. It seemed to play a bit slow on day one. It was just the way it was being played I think. I am not sure I like the precision bar though it sounds a bit fiddly. Difficult to know with out playing the game.

ArchivedUser

tugowar said:

Hi,

I agree that the precision bar should be moveable, and someone on discord even suggested a circle instead of a bar as a reticle in the center of your view.  As long as it's moveable, I like the precision bar!

I do agree w/ the assessment that the rest of the combat isn't particularly innovative.  That's ok as long as it's enjoyable. 

-tug

The Hud and UI are going to be extremely customizable. 

Watch the youtube video of the teams full panel at PAX.
Jump to 47:30 and you'll have your answer CIRCLE AND ALL

ArchivedUser

Everyone talking about the UI. Considering the stage of the game, I am not at all worried about this. 

What does worry me, however, is that, from the demos I have seen. The skills used by players, and the mechanics of the boss they fought, they look rather standard. And I am not talking about the animation, which actually looks a lot better than what I'd expect from an early alpha.
What worries me is the direction they are going in. Tab target+ skillshot combat is fine, so is the quick time.

The interactions between skills is what I'd be looking for. As they mentioned way before pax. The mage, retreating back, and leaving a magical wall. Forced mobs, and players alike. To walk around it. What I did not see, was this interacting with other spells.

Example, let's take the giant xenomorph-esque (I adore the boss design btw) boss. At some points during the encounter, it started doing a breath attack. The wall that was used, from what I saw, merely provided a damage reduction. Why not have it shatter the wall, but the wall absorbed impact. This seems static in PvE. Unless the boss has multiple of these attacks, and you'd have to choose when to use it, when you're healer can't heal enough for example, you can choose to help him. But in PvP. You see the hunter charge up his shot. And from the other side. You see a mage flinging a spell. You then have to decide which of the attacks you'll try and block.

This is something that I honestly hoped, and even thought they'd do. As they mentioned the importance of positioning and positional awareness. From what I've seen, which, granted, was only a demo. Was really only about don't stand in front of the boss when he does his breath. And the boss's equivalent of don't stand in lava. 

ArchivedUser

Another big point is that precision timed events favor the players with better ping, and punish the players with worse ping.

Good game development should (imo) strive to design a game in such way so that it minimizes an importance of ping (I realize it's not possible to completely eliminate effect of ping, but one can at least try not to add an extra mechanics that depend on ping).

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

Everyone is acting like the QTE is the be-all-end-all of the combat system when it really is only a small part of it.

If their PAX showing is any indication, the QTEs are a huge part of combat.  Players had 9 skills in the demo.  One was for gathering, one was the class utility, and one was the ultimate.  Of the six skills left, five were highly situational (aoe with low single target damage or long cast times, defensive cooldowns, CC, movement skills) and the weapon skill was the only one that was spammable (though I've read there was an invisible cooldown on it, which probably contributed to the feeling of slow combat).  So you are going to be using your weapon skill often, and comboing to get the best effect from it.  Additionally, they mentioned at the panel q&a that each weapon will have a progression, similar to the skill progression, so that additional effects happen when you combo.

To summarize, from what I've seen, the weapon attack is the primary source of single target damage, and its QTE events are necessary to maximize your damage and unlock your ultimate, plus whatever proc effects you've specced into.  Yet somehow it is only a small part of combat.

ArchivedUser

mycroft said:

Zastro said:

Everyone is acting like the QTE is the be-all-end-all of the combat system when it really is only a small part of it.

If their PAX showing is any indication, the QTEs are a huge part of combat.  Players had 9 skills in the demo.  One was for gathering, one was the class utility, and one was the ultimate.  Of the six skills left, five were highly situational (aoe with low single target damage or long cast times, defensive cooldowns, CC, movement skills) and the weapon skill was the only one that was spammable (though I've read there was an invisible cooldown on it, which probably contributed to the feeling of slow combat).  So you are going to be using your weapon skill often, and comboing to get the best effect from it.  Additionally, they mentioned at the panel q&a that each weapon will have a progression, similar to the skill progression, so that additional effects happen when you combo.

To summarize, from what I've seen, the weapon attack is the primary source of single target damage, and its QTE events are necessary to maximize your damage and unlock your ultimate, plus whatever proc effects you've specced into.  Yet somehow it is only a small part of combat.

Curret, skills from 2-8 have rather large cooldowns, so this causes you to use your weapon specialization the most (which you cant pick from in PAX) so alot of the time in this version/iteration you Press 1, then the QTE, and another QTE if u succeed the first one, and then if your skills are off cooldown you can use them, but you will often save them for situational occurances or carefully in PvP. So most of the time currently you are using the 1 skill and QTE event atm.

ArchivedUser

In terms of overall speed, Jeff said they are going for faster than WoW, but slower than BDO.

ArchivedUser

Axios said:

tugowar said:

Hi,

I agree that the precision bar should be moveable, and someone on discord even suggested a circle instead of a bar as a reticle in the center of your view.  As long as it's moveable, I like the precision bar!

I do agree w/ the assessment that the rest of the combat isn't particularly innovative.  That's ok as long as it's enjoyable. 

-tug

The Hud and UI are going to be extremely customizable. 

Watch the youtube video of the teams full panel at PAX.
Jump to 47:30 and you'll have your answer CIRCLE AND ALL

Thanks friend.    I made that comment before PAX started.  I've updated my original comment with the edit. 

ArchivedUser

Eh. I have faith that cooldowns and skills will be tuned appropriately. I just feel like people are being melodramatic about the QTE, especially since most of them haven't even tried it. Once I get a look at the new UI changes they are going to implement and the options for displaying the QTE, whether it be a visual cue/effect or a different version of the bar, I will begin to speak out against or for it. 

ArchivedUser

1: The QTE bar was fun. Placement could be better.

2: We need other ways to accrue Focus, in addition to that one key, I think.

3: Different weapons/weapon abilities will have a longer hit bar... the Tank/Great Sword hit bar is about 2.5x the Ranger/Bow hit bar, so the Tank's reflexes don't have to be as fast as the Ranger's.
Or, to be more accurate, using a Great Sword is more forgiving reflex-wise than the bow. Players can choose the weapons that best accommodate their reflexes.

4: I spoke quite a while with Berros about the feel of the controls - especially with regard to combo ability. Berros has some nerve damage in his hand(s). He said it was pretty comfortable for him to trigger the combo for the Cleric's Staff.
That being said, I did notice Jeff B frequently working the kinks out his left hand while GMing the demo, Monday.
Current UI, may cause undo hand fatigue with extended play. (For us old fogeys)

ArchivedUser

Trinnox said:

In general I really like the idea of quick time events and no auto attack as combat.

I feel like some people are trying to set up a false dichotomy.  Its not this combat or auto attacks, there are plenty of games without an auto attack that actually give you something to do at every moment.

UnknownSystemError said:

Heard Jeffrey answering questions off of Twitch say that it was just added for PAX as an indicator so people could see the mechanic. That over the course of development, while the idea behind the system will NOT change, the way it is displayed on the UI WOULD change and be tweaked in the future.

I thought their response during the panel q&a had a different tone, that if they couldn't find a way to present the QTEs that people liked then they would redo the system entirely.

That being said, with how they are emphasizing the positive feedback, I doubt they'd concede that point regardless of how the majority actually feel.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

1: The QTE bar was fun. Placement could be better.

2: We need other ways to accrue Focus, in addition to that one key, I think.

3: Different weapons/weapon abilities will have a longer hit bar... the Tank/Great Sword hit bar is about 2.5x the Ranger/Bow hit bar, so the Tank's reflexes don't have to be as fast as the Ranger's.
Or, to be more accurate, using a Great Sword is more forgiving reflex-wise than the bow. Players can choose the weapons that best accommodate their reflexes.

4: I spoke quite a while with Berros about the feel of the controls - especially with regard to combo ability. Berros has some nerve damage in his hand(s). He said it was pretty comfortable for him to trigger the combo for the Cleric's Staff.
That being said, I did notice Jeff B frequently working the kinks out his left hand while GMing the demo, Monday.
Current UI, may cause undo hand fatigue with extended play. (For us old fogeys)

Yeah considering the durations I play an MMORPG for on release can sometimes be over 16 hours a day RSI could be a concern. Not a huge one though.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

4: I spoke quite a while with Berros about the feel of the controls - especially with regard to combo ability. Berros has some nerve damage in his hand(s). He said it was pretty comfortable for him to trigger the combo for the Cleric's Staff.
That being said, I did notice Jeff B frequently working the kinks out his left hand while GMing the demo, Monday.
Current UI, may cause undo hand fatigue with extended play. (For us old fogeys)

This is a concern of mine as well. I had to quit BDO because it caused some serious hand issues that still require me to moderate my computer usage at home and at work to avoid pain where I had never needed to do so before. I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to play this game with the way the current bar requires precision spamming to get combos off. And I'm only in my 30's, but hand/wrist injuries from computer use can happen to anybody.

ArchivedUser

I would like you to not just try to invalidate my opinion as "try to set up false dichotomy". I never stated it's one or the other... i stated the current state of the combat which is "quick time event and no auto attacks" and my opinion is that i like the general idea. Obviously the system is in no acceptable state as it is and there are other options i would also be satisfied with.

At this point i'm just tired of this discussion till the alpha is going for a while... people are totally set on one side from the looks of a quickly put together system, without having played it. At this point 99% of people (who haven't played it) can only state if they like the idea of a qte in general or not.

ArchivedUser

Trinnox said:

I would like you to not just try to invalidate my opinion as "try to set up false dichotomy". I never stated it's one or the other... i stated the current state of the combat which is "quick time event and no auto attacks" and my opinion is that i like the general idea. Obviously the system is in no acceptable state as it is and there are other options i would also be satisfied with.

At this point i'm just tired of this discussion till the alpha is going for a while... people are totally set on one side from the looks of a quickly put together system, without having played it. At this point 99% of people (who haven't played it) can only state if they like the idea of a qte in general or not.

Want the opinion of somewhat who played the game? Sure.

http://mithicalentertainment.com/pax-west-exclusive-interview-jeffrey-bard/

The question here ill ask you is, is it worth them investing into a system that it half baked. What happens if they spend months of time building ontop of the QTE system, just fleshing out the UI, speeding up the pace and making it more fluid..... but thats all wasted time if the concept still isnt like or enjoyed. Its up to them to take this risk, or listen to the feedback. While you might be tired of the discussion the answer seems pretty clear. Just step away from it. People will discuss and talk about it with or without you, and I think its important for people to discuss it. I already think theres been alot of great feedback and idea's shared so far, and im pretty sure some of what has been talked or discussed about is useful for Intrepid in many ways. And i disagree that only people who played it can state their opinion, especially when we talk about visual elements. People can discuss what they want, and ultimately its not going to affect sales, because there wont be much to buy till the games much further in developement, so let people talk, atleast they will be talking about the game, negative or positive doesnt matter, as long as their talking about it.

ArchivedUser

I am also on board with the QTE and no auto-attack. For me having a QTE being responsible for the gathering of "focus" that can unleash an "ultimate" makes since. Otherwise the ultimate becomes another cool down that nobody works for but everyone uses. I am also under the impression that you can still attack/damage without nailing the "Sweet spot." For those of you that played, am I wrong?
*honestly don't know, just asking as I couldn't really tell from the gameplay*

As for the auto-attack my question is simply "Why?"
There was an argument that some prefer PvE and this allows them to go about their business without having to engage in combat. At first I agreed but then thought that doesn't fit in well with the risk/reward system. I only mention this POV because, out of all of them, this was the only one that made me consider being pro auto-attack.

I think the GUI will change and combat will look smoother and feel a bit faster in the end.

I like what I have seen so far and my only suggestion to IS would be "keep it going, I like the way this MMO is breaking away from dogma."

ArchivedUser

Azathoth said:

I am also on board with the QTE and no auto-attack. For me having a QTE being responsible for the gathering of "focus" that can unleash an "ultimate" makes since. Otherwise the ultimate becomes another cool down that nobody works for but everyone uses. I am also under the impression that you can still attack/damage without nailing the "Sweet spot." For those of you that played, am I wrong?
*honestly don't know, just asking as I couldn't really tell from the gameplay*

As for the auto-attack my question is simply "Why?"
There was an argument that some prefer PvE and this allows them to go about their business without having to engage in combat. At first I agreed but then thought that doesn't fit in well with the risk/reward system. I only mention this POV because, out of all of them, this was the only one that made me consider being pro auto-attack.

I think the GUI will change and combat will look smoother and feel a bit faster in the end.

I like what I have seen so far and my only suggestion to IS would be "keep it going, I like the way this MMO is breaking away from dogma."

Well except, ESO, BDO, about 20-30 other korean games essentially allow you to gather "focus" and unleash an "ultimate". Not sure thats "breaking away from the dogma".

Also mainstream console games a literally flooded with QTE events. Once again, not sure if thats "breaking away from the dogma". 

ArchivedUser

Well, I understand and that's all good, but that doesn't change the fact that the only suggestion I have right now for IS is to "keep it going, I like the way this MMO is breaking away from the dogma." Next time I will specify that my only suggestion is not necessarily related to the topic, I was giving honest feedback.

Again, I am all for the QTE during combat/gathering/etc. and the current "focus" and "ultimate" relationship. As for any suggestions for the combat system, I have none.

ArchivedUser

Azathoth said:

I am also under the impression that you can still attack/damage without nailing the "Sweet spot." For those of you that played, am I wrong?

According to someone on reddit, there are periods of inactivity, where everything is on cooldown (including the weapon skill, which doesn't have a visual cooldown), and there's not anything to do.  I'd imagine that missing the combo would exacerbate that problem, but the lack of visibility makes that hard to judge.

ArchivedUser

mycroft said:

Azathoth said:

I am also under the impression that you can still attack/damage without nailing the "Sweet spot." For those of you that played, am I wrong?

According to someone on reddit, there are periods of inactivity, where everything is on cooldown (including the weapon skill, which doesn't have a visual cooldown), and there's not anything to do.  I'd imagine that missing the combo would exacerbate that problem, but the lack of visibility makes that hard to judge.

That certainly seems to be the case from people that I've talked too.

ArchivedUser

DeathsProxy said:
Curret, skills from 2-8 have rather large cooldowns, so this causes you to use your weapon specialization the most (which you cant pick from in PAX) so alot of the time in this version/iteration you Press 1, then the QTE, and another QTE if u succeed the first one, and then if your skills are off cooldown you can use them, but you will often save them for situational occurances or carefully in PvP. So most of the time currently you are using the 1 skill and QTE event atm.

Right. 
At PAX, our weapons only had one ability - so our combo was just chaining one ability.
The game design calls for our weapons to have several abilities... so hitting the 1 key at the right time will trigger different weapon abilities as the combo continues.

I only played the Ranger, but my weapon was only on cool-down for a handful of seconds. You can't just spam your weapon if you miss your combo timing.

The second combo felt buggy. Seemed to almost always delay...
The first combo always felt accurate... to early, on the mark, too late... I always agreed with where the marker landed.
The second combo, I almost always disagreed with where the marker landed.
And even when I landed the second combo, it didn't seem to affect anything.
I could never land a 3 hit-combo even when the marker indicated I was on the mark.
So, my experience as a Ranger was usually a two hit combo with a 3-4 second rest before I could trigger my weapon again. Or just one hit with a missed combo and then a 3-4 second rest.