Ashes of Creation - "Dear Intrepid, Let's Talk About Your Combat System.."

ArchivedUser

not a fan of the quick time event. reminds me of playing golf on the old sega console.  The first iteration of FF XIV had it and it was terrible.  Making the game engaging for skilful players, is about raid awareness for pve,  and pvp its about practice.  The quicktime events subtracts from the game rather than adds to it. 

ArchivedUser

TekonII said:

not a fan of the quick time event. reminds me of playing golf on the old sega console.  The first iteration of FF XIV had it and it was terrible.  Making the game engaging for skilful players, is about raid awareness for pve,  and pvp its about practice.  The quicktime events subtracts from the game rather than adds to it. 

Not to mention if the game gets even a little popular, bots will always do it perfectly.

ArchivedUser

@DeathsProxy I was and am stepping away from the discussion.. the only reason i posted was because i got quoted with a try to devalue my opinion... I'm totally fine with people agreeing or disagreeing with my opinion just not trying to disregard my opinion.

To all the other stuff you pointed out in that post i can just say: you are not wrong...  my point is just a complete different one.
In the end i'm just stepping away from the topic.

ArchivedUser

I totally appreciate that you guys are trying to make combat feel more immersive by adding the QuickTime slide bar event. But as someone who's been a Raider in MMOs for years now I can't help but feel like it's a bad idea. Ashes of creation has beautiful animation and characters and real potential for amazing battle sequences but I'm not going to get to enjoy any of that if I'm staring at a bar every time I'm in combat.

Now I'm not against the idea of a quick Time Event in combat necessarily but more specifically the slidebar. If the QuickTime notifier were visual based on actual combat movement or colors or sound effects then they wouldn't be nearly as distracting as a Slidebar, because the thing telling me to activate the quick time is already what I'm looking at. 

Personally I think the idea of having some sort of combat mechanic to increase your healing, damage, or tanking output based on personal skill level is a great idea so long as the skill cap isn't so high that it alienates the least skilled among us.

Good luck to you guys I can't wait to see how the combat system evolves going forward!
.

ArchivedUser

I believe the "bar" will remain for a long time, in one version or another... What I would like to see is multiple hit points on the bar for more powerful abilities (ones with multiple hits), where hitting the bar on each stop point gives a crit on those particular hits in the combo.

I agree it requires too much focus during combat on the bar instead of the action or scenery and is more of a distraction than a necessary implementation.

Please for the love of all the gods, make sure the skill buttons can be remapped.  with utilization of the full number bar for skills, it requires a player to remove their fingers from the movement keys to press them (unless you have a customizable mouse with enough keys for remapping all of them... and even that makes it less than efficient)

I think that the "slowness" of combat that people are frequently commenting about is intentional, due to the necessity of moving your hand to reach the hotkeys necessary to perform the skills.  A truly innovative game interface will be the one that does not compromise the player's ability to trigger skills without having to remove their hand from either movement or mouse to press them.  Which in my opinion will require a redesign of the "controller" used (e.g. replace the KB and mouse with something more efficient for gaming).  As it is, I think the interface leans strongly to console gaming controllers, and I will most likely look into using my controller when I get my first chance to play AoC.

ArchivedUser

I do like what there trying with the combo systems looks like something new which is why we like ashes as it something new , think it needs to be more polish as melee classes are put at a massive disadvantage to earn focus quite at the minute , would like it a bit more like dragon-age 2 style combat  

ArchivedUser

OneWingedAngel said:

I do like what there trying with the combo systems looks like something new which is why we like ashes as it something new , think it needs to be more polish as melee classes are put at a massive disadvantage to earn focus quite at the minute , would like it a bit more like dragon-age 2 style combat  

Unfortunately its not new at all. Maplestory and Bless Online both used something just like it. Infact wasnt really well recieved at all with bless online, and is currently going through a rebuild project. So yeah, isnt new in terms of MMO's and its definately not new in regards to games, QTE's have been around for along time, heavily so in the PS1 era and beyond.

ArchivedUser

Hmmmn.
You have a vid of the QTE in Bless Online combat?
The complaints about BO combat don't seem to be about QTE.
(This one below doesn't seem to have Ashes-like QTE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4CGkjFmaRM

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Hmmmn.
You have a vid of the QTE in Bless Online combat?
The complaints about BO combat don't seem to be about QTE.
(This one below doesn't seem to have Ashes-like QTE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4CGkjFmaRM

Heres the bar in Gunbound:
https://youtu.be/LtHn33UymgQ

And Bless it was scrapped for combat eventually
but has been "reimplimented" as a taming bar.

https://youtu.be/8idI_KY5v-M?t=97

ArchivedUser

I'm looking at Bless Online vids from as early as 2015 and I don't see a QTE bar during combat.
Again, the complaints I see about the BO combat do not mention a QTE bar. All kinds of other stuff people hate about the combat - pretty much everyone agrees BO combat sucked.
But, I haven't been following the game, so I don't really know.

That being said --
None of the mechanics in Ashes are brand new - what's new is how the mechanics are being implemented (according to the game design).

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

I'm looking at Bless Online vids from as early as 2015 and I don't see a QTE bar during combat.
Again, the complaints I see about the BO combat do not mention a QTE bar. All kinds of other stuff people hate about the combat - pretty much everyone agrees BO combat sucked.
But, I haven't been following the game, so I don't really know.

That being said --
None of the mechanics in Ashes are brand new - what's new is how the mechanics are being implemented (according to the game design).

2012 development, many things got changed/altered since then. Unlikely to see footage of it due to NDA, Internal testing.

ArchivedUser

That looks more like a charge for Power Shot than a QTE bar similar to the current taming bar in BO. But, really beside the point, I think.
I'm not seeing any connection between the "rebuilt" combat due to complaints and a QTE bar in BO.

Thanks for the links and images, though.

ArchivedUser

I agree with at @Dygz, it is not so much that every element is new or original. I have never played an RPG game with a QTE bar (that I was actively aware of), I never played PS1, and the games I can recall that I have played with a combo/timing factor have all been Virtual Combat games (Mortal Combat etc.).

So, for me, Ashes QTE bar during combat is new and refreshing

ArchivedUser

The combo system it is an interesting idea; however, my main concern is how will it be explit by cheaters using 3RD party software. 
I really look forward how will 64 classes will work and remain useful. EQ 2 had trouble with 24 classes (at release), 
I am rooting for Intrepid and back them up with my money. So i have faith in them

ArchivedUser

WarRath said:

The combo system it is an interesting idea; however, my main concern is how will it be explit by cheaters using 3RD party software. 
I really look forward how will 64 classes will work and remain useful. EQ 2 had trouble with 24 classes (at release), 
I am rooting for Intrepid and back them up with my money. So i have faith in them

Honestly, I fear the 64 classes will be akin to all the Mass Effect 3 vanilla endings.

ArchivedUser

I'm with Proxy on this one. I personally would much prefer non UI based cues such as color particles, character animations, sound effects, and so forth - anything that'd feel more immersive. The idea behind the system isn't bad but the QTE golf swing bar might be better for non-combat elements such as crafting. 

ArchivedUser

DeathsProxy said:

They only know what changes to make if you provide feedback though.

(@ everyone)
This is like critiquing pancake batter for not being fluffy and thinking that the baker will never know that the batter isn't fluffy if you don't tell them.
Or, closer to home, like thinking the devs will only know that the current face of the Mage is ugly if we provide that feedback.

There is a reason that the devs keep saying "This is pre-alpha."

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

DeathsProxy said:

They only know what changes to make if you provide feedback though.

(@ everyone)
This is like critiquing pancake batter for not being fluffy and thinking that the baker will never know that the batter isn't fluffy if you don't tell them.
Or, closer to home, like thinking the devs will only know that the current face of the Mage is ugly if we provide that feedback.

There is a reason that the devs keep saying "This is pre-alpha."

Actually as a fully trained classical chef, I can tell you that its heavily important to critique the batter before allowing someone to use it. That applys to any high end form of cooking infact. You correct mistakes or provide feedback before it goes out to the customer. 

So GG poorly constructed anology right there.

Ultimately feedback is important, and even themselves have said this. 

ArchivedUser

I think Combat System is need to be like Asian MMORPGS. Because Asian developers/animators are really good at using physics, martial arts and fantasy. and I like it. Even some asian produced game from early 2000's has better animation movement than some current western games. Western games usually have that sloppy, cartoonish fight moves like an Hollywood movie.  I think it should be more engaging and a bit faster. I know somepeople dislike anime-ish moves, fast hit combos, non-stop visual effects, but I think combat is the vital point of an MMORPG. 

And what I've seen from the PAX(which Steven said that is 1/5 out of end-game PVP), I'm not very okay with the style. It looks slow, especially Archer.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

DeathsProxy said:

They only know what changes to make if you provide feedback though.

(@ everyone)
This is like critiquing pancake batter for not being fluffy and thinking that the baker will never know that the batter isn't fluffy if you don't tell them.
Or, closer to home, like thinking the devs will only know that the current face of the Mage is ugly if we provide that feedback.

There is a reason that the devs keep saying "This is pre-alpha."

You say early, I hear foundation. Providing feedback as early as possible, to help shape the direction in which they are going. (Add a little spice to the recipe, because at the "batter" stage, adding and changing up some ingredients is still possible, when it becomes a pancake, it's already too late, and you can just add topping.)

ArchivedUser

@DeathsProxy

Your like a dog with a bone lighten up a bit the DEVS have years of experience, they will work it out. Give it time.

ArchivedUser

@DeathsProxy, I think @Dygz is saying telling IS that the combat is slow is not telling them anything they don't know. Not saying don't critique, just that IS likely knows the combat is slow.

ArchivedUser

Imo all constructive critique and feedback are welcome and it does not matter anything if we are in pre-alpha state. If the combo system looked weird and feels problematic, there is no need to hush and hide behind pre-alpha statement. Lets consider it pre-feedback then.

ArchivedUser

DeathsProxy said:

Actually as a fully trained classical chef, I can tell you that its heavily important to critique the batter before allowing someone to use it. That applies to any high end form of cooking in fact. You correct mistakes or provide feedback before it goes out to the customer. 

So GG poorly constructed analogy right there.

Ultimately feedback is important, and even themselves have said this. 

I said something very specific - I did not say that it is not important to critique batter.
I specifically said it's like tasting pancake batter and saying the baker won't know that the baker won't know that the pancake batter isn't fluffy if you don't tell them.
Especially, layman taster giving that feedback to a professional baker.

Pancake batter isn't supposed to be fluffy. A professional baker will know that the pancake batter is not fluffy because it is not the end product. They know that it will change significantly before the end, they are simply letting you get an early taste.
Even more true if they tell you the batter right now only has 20% of the ingredients in the recipe and you're like, "Oh, they will only know that those pancakes don't taste fluffy and needs salt if we tell them."

It's not a poor analogy, you just altered the analogy I gave into something different to try to fit your narrative.
Feedback can be important. I didn't say feedback wasn't important.
What you said is, "They only know what changes to make if you provide feedback though."
And that is simply patently absurd. As absurd as thinking that a professional baker won't know that pancake batter isn't fluffy unless you tell them, simply because they let you taste the batter rather than asking you to critique the end product.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

DeathsProxy said:

Actually as a fully trained classical chef, I can tell you that its heavily important to critique the batter before allowing someone to use it. That applies to any high end form of cooking in fact. You correct mistakes or provide feedback before it goes out to the customer. 

So GG poorly constructed analogy right there.

Ultimately feedback is important, and even themselves have said this. 

I said something very specific - I did not say that it is not important to critique batter.
I specifically said it's like tasting pancake batter and saying the baker won't know that the baker won't know that the pancake batter isn't fluffy if you don't tell them.
Especially, layman taster giving that feedback to a professional baker.

Pancake batter isn't supposed to be fluffy. A professional baker will know that the pancake batter is not fluffy because it is not the end product. They know that it will change significantly before the end, they are simply letting you get an early taste.
Even more true if they tell you the batter right now only has 20% of the ingredients in the recipe and you're like, "Oh, they will only know that those pancakes don't taste fluffy and needs salt if we tell them."

It's not a poor analogy, you just altered the analogy I gave into something different to try to fit your narrative.
Feedback can be important. I didn't say feedback wasn't important.
What you said is, "They only know what changes to make if you provide feedback though."
And that is simply patently absurd. As absurd as thinking that a professional baker won't know that pancake batter isn't fluffy unless you tell them, simply because they let you taste the batter rather than asking you to critique the end product.

Its not absurd at all. If no one said anything they would assume that everything is fine and everyone loves the new combat system. So only by giving feedback would they know people are not generally happy with it.

ArchivedUser

Azathoth said:

@DeathsProxy, I think @Dygz is saying telling IS that the combat is slow is not telling them anything they don't know. Not saying don't critique, just that IS likely knows the combat is slow.

Except he basically said we shouldnt critique anything because they "should know" but initally they didnt think the combat was slow. Infact Steven initially thought it was a good pace. Its only through feedback they suddenly second guessed their own descision.

ArchivedUser

Azathoth said:

@DeathsProxy, I think @Dygz is saying telling IS that the combat is slow is not telling them anything they don't know. Not saying don't critique, just that IS likely knows the combat is slow.

Exactly. Give all the feedback you want.
But, thinking that the devs will only know that the current face of the Mage is ugly if we tell them is absurd. The devs don't care that the Mage's face looks ugly right now.
They know it needs to be changed and they not only plan to change it later, they plan to give players the ability to change the face. Right now the face is just a placeholder while the demo other aspects of the game.
Thinking, "They will only know to change the face if we tell them," is absurd.

I played the demo Monday. During my 3rd play through of the PvP demo, while we were waiting for the gate to rise so we could enter the arena, the Mage used Blink to teleport to the other side of the gate and began destroying pylons.
I let Steven know when I spoke with him in case they didn't know - since I didn't know if that was the first time a Mage ever tried that or if it was a known bug. Steven said, yeah, they already knew about it.
The pylons and points all reset when the gates did rise to let everyone else in, so it's very likely that they knew the Mage could Blink past the gate before they arrived at PAX - they just made sure it wouldn't unfairly affect the final outcome.

Is the combat in Ashes slow? That's going to be subjective.
Jeff Bard wants the speed of combat to be faster than WoW and slower than BDO. I think it feels like that already. The devs will continue to tweak - it's nowhere near a final pass.

What the devs really wanted from PAX regarding combat was for people to get a feel of what they mean by a hybrid of tab target and action combat. And for people to get a taste of weapon combos and the QTE and building focus and using the Ultimate. Thinking they wouldn't know to change the UI for the QTE without feedback from PAX would simply be a mistake. The UI is just a placeholder. The mechanics are the preliminary draft.

Give all the feedback you want.
But, it's absurd to critique a pre-alpha as if it's the finished product simply because you get an early taste - and absurd to think that the devs won't know what needs to be changed if they don't get feedback.
You give the feedback to make sure they know what you think needs to be added or changed - not because the only way for them to know is if you tell them.

ArchivedUser

Fair points. Criticism is fair game as long as it's not made under the assumption that the devs are oblivious and that the game is anything more than pre-alpha. 

I'm not sure if anyone is taking that stance but the point is made.

Let's get back to the issue at hand though. Didn't someone say that IS were planning to change the bar to a circle?  It still seems like a lackluster alteration to the QTE bar if that's the case.

What do people think of Proxy's idea about color particles for spells and the like?

ArchivedUser

The bar has to go. I like proxy's suggestion on color-changing mechanics.

ArchivedUser

DeathsProxy said:
Its not absurd at all. If no one said anything they would assume that everything is fine and everyone loves the new combat system. So only by giving feedback would they know people are not generally happy with it.

No. That, again, is absurd.
If they assumed everything is fine, they would release the game at the end of the month.
They have told you it's pre-alpha because they know everything is not fine.
They have specifically said that things will change.
They don't expect everyone to love the new combat system - especially not in it's unfinished early state.
They don't expect everyone will love the final version of the combat system.

It's like construction workers letting you look at your unfinished house and you thinking that they won't know to add a roof and drywall if you don't tell them simply because they let you view the house before it's finished.

You know how my grandma knew if I like her cooking? I either devoured everything on on my plate and went for seconds or I didn't finish eating something after tasting it.

You know how the Ashes devs know to continue as planned with the QTE and their vision of combat?
The lines to play the demos remained long all 4 days of PAX - with many people standing in the lines multiple times to play again. Several people playing the PvP demo 12+ and 20+ times.
I was only there Monday. I hate PvP combat and I played the PvP demo 5+ times because it was pretty fun. Clunky, but fun. Needs a lot of work, but fun.
And I would have played it more, but I preferred to stand near demo GMs and talk to the devs over wasting time just standing in line for an hour.

People are generally OK with the QTE, they don't particularly like the UI for the QTE.
Most of the critiques about the QTE were about the placement on the screen.

You seem obsessed with the QTE for whatever reason. I guess you hate it.
But, it's in to stay for the forseeable future - regardless of how much you gripe because the feedback on the combat system has been overwhelmingly positive.
"Tweak it, but keep going in the current direction."

It's like Fevir said - the combat might feel "meh" at the moment, but it's pre-alpha.
I look at Pantheon combat and have no interest in touching that game. Before i saw the combat, I was somewhat intrigued. The moment I saw the combat, I was all, "Hell, no!!"

So, again, give all the feedback you want. That is perfectly fine and to be expected
I don't think anyone is saying don't critique and don't provide negative feedback.
But, thinking that the only way the devs will know to make changes to a pre-alpha is if we tell them what changes need to be made is about as absurd as one could get.
Pre-alpha inherently means that the devs will be changing the mechanics and features - many times before alpha, many times during alpha and many times during beta - even without player feedback.

The Ashes devs will also make some changes based on player feedback - mostly starting from Alpha 0.