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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Some minor but spicy changes to keep open world PvP alive (and healthy)
ArchivedUser
Guest
Hi!
Sorry for long post, I know, I know tl;dr
I don’t expect devs to make all of this 5 changes.. but at least some of them.. or this game will have very little open world PvP and bounty hunters will be jobless. Please make open world PvP great again! We need games to be exciting! It’s not farmivlle. MMO is nothing without balanced PvP and PvE (both at the same time- balanced).
Right now u risk ur items, ur level, materials, debuff (most likely even if u win hunting spot u will not be able to grind), there will be bounty on your head and bounty hunters will know ur location...... I can’t imagine anything worth that risk.. just lol. x) so it's not risk and reward it's risk and risk system..
1. First and most crucial - for RED players - Ability to fight back without suffering any consequences . I find it extremely important. If someone wants to kill RED it means he wants to fight him, punish him, he wants his gear ect. If they want all that they need to face a risk of being killed and RED cannot be afraid of losing even more karma for defending his life... It’s just worst thing u can ever do to RED players... its making them a prey that is unable to fight back, and even unable to go back to green(+red can lose precious gear anymoment..)
Don’t unbalance and punish PvP that much :< it’s part of the game. Don’t make green side soo much privileged or RED/violet(unprivileged and with super risks) side will disappear and open world PvP will be almost non existent.
If u dont like reading:
https://imgur.com/a/BEqDQ93
(yes it's paint remake)
2.To make PVP flexible we need:
Pvp Mode switches: 3 options(available for everyone no matter if green/violet/red):
3. The best hunting areas/farming spots should be „open pvp”(no corruption for kill). „Best spots for best players or strongest guilds”. There should be benefits for being strong or being part of super strong guild. Mechanic like that make people feel it’s actualy worth to spend hours practicing, lvling and gearing up.. (I don’t mean all spots.. just some of them. It’s needed to satisfy all player’s needs.. not just nonpvp carebears)
too unbalanced and too much grief potential:
4. If u kill someone "green" u can kill that person again for next +-25minutes without losing karma.With current mechanic they can ruin ur game by constantly following you, killing mobs you aggro, provoking u to kill them ECT.. ECT..
I have met many people in many mmo games that could grief for hours.. following someone for hours, provoking, just letting him kill u to make him lose karma- people like that are often low lvls.. even if they die many times they lose mayby 30 mins worth of exp... there is no punishment for that nor mechanisms to defend yourself.. If u lose temper and kill them.. they call friends and u lose waaay more..
(To prevent griefing from red/violet side) the killed green player should be teleported to one of 4 closest spawn locations (randomly).
5. Don’t make RED players lose their stats(debuff).
They will be hunted by many bounty hunters anyway. PvP is part of the game.. Very crucial part.. don’t make mechanics to unbalance it.. Losing equipment is huuuge risk anyways... (+ the more bounty is for u the more bounty hunters will chase u = it's fair enough)
Thanks for reading and feel free to ask questions. If u think any of my ideas is wrong feel free to explain why and how it should be changed to make it perfect for us all.
Constructive criticism is welcomed and appreciated
Sorry for long post, I know, I know tl;dr
I don’t expect devs to make all of this 5 changes.. but at least some of them.. or this game will have very little open world PvP and bounty hunters will be jobless. Please make open world PvP great again! We need games to be exciting! It’s not farmivlle. MMO is nothing without balanced PvP and PvE (both at the same time- balanced).
Right now u risk ur items, ur level, materials, debuff (most likely even if u win hunting spot u will not be able to grind), there will be bounty on your head and bounty hunters will know ur location...... I can’t imagine anything worth that risk.. just lol. x) so it's not risk and reward it's risk and risk system..
1. First and most crucial - for RED players - Ability to fight back without suffering any consequences . I find it extremely important. If someone wants to kill RED it means he wants to fight him, punish him, he wants his gear ect. If they want all that they need to face a risk of being killed and RED cannot be afraid of losing even more karma for defending his life... It’s just worst thing u can ever do to RED players... its making them a prey that is unable to fight back, and even unable to go back to green(+red can lose precious gear anymoment..)
Don’t unbalance and punish PvP that much :< it’s part of the game. Don’t make green side soo much privileged or RED/violet(unprivileged and with super risks) side will disappear and open world PvP will be almost non existent.
If u dont like reading:
https://imgur.com/a/BEqDQ93
(yes it's paint remake)
2.To make PVP flexible we need:
Pvp Mode switches: 3 options(available for everyone no matter if green/violet/red):
- non pvp mode = ur skills don't dmg anyone.
- semi pvp mode= ur skills don't dmg non combatants.
- full pvp mode = ur skills deal dmg to anyone in range.
==Note that u still can be attacked no matter what switch u use. It's just to determine who U want to attack==
Its a must to have fun from pvp. We dont want to attack or kill someone by misteake nor griefers intentionaly running into our skills to make us super corrupted ect..3. The best hunting areas/farming spots should be „open pvp”(no corruption for kill). „Best spots for best players or strongest guilds”. There should be benefits for being strong or being part of super strong guild. Mechanic like that make people feel it’s actualy worth to spend hours practicing, lvling and gearing up.. (I don’t mean all spots.. just some of them. It’s needed to satisfy all player’s needs.. not just nonpvp carebears)
too unbalanced and too much grief potential:
4. If u kill someone "green" u can kill that person again for next +-25minutes without losing karma.With current mechanic they can ruin ur game by constantly following you, killing mobs you aggro, provoking u to kill them ECT.. ECT..
I have met many people in many mmo games that could grief for hours.. following someone for hours, provoking, just letting him kill u to make him lose karma- people like that are often low lvls.. even if they die many times they lose mayby 30 mins worth of exp... there is no punishment for that nor mechanisms to defend yourself.. If u lose temper and kill them.. they call friends and u lose waaay more..
(To prevent griefing from red/violet side) the killed green player should be teleported to one of 4 closest spawn locations (randomly).
5. Don’t make RED players lose their stats(debuff).
They will be hunted by many bounty hunters anyway. PvP is part of the game.. Very crucial part.. don’t make mechanics to unbalance it.. Losing equipment is huuuge risk anyways... (+ the more bounty is for u the more bounty hunters will chase u = it's fair enough)
Thanks for reading and feel free to ask questions. If u think any of my ideas is wrong feel free to explain why and how it should be changed to make it perfect for us all.
Constructive criticism is welcomed and appreciated
0
Comments
I think anything is possible. It’s still very early phase and any change can be easily made. :< i love pvp and i want it to be great.
I think they are rational people and will listen to good ideas – the team making this game is rlyy skilled and experienced so well I expect a lot from this game
3. If you read the pvp portion of https://www.ashesofcreation.com/about/ you will see them talking about static pvp zones and one of those zones mentioned is hunting grounds. We have not heard anything more on this so i'm not sure if it's still a thing but they have at least thought about it at some point.
4. I understand what you are trying to solve here as i have suffered the same issue in games but one of the things the corruption system is trying to prevent is a corpse camping scenario where a person is repeatedly killed. I believe the goal will be to use the death penalty to stop the karma bombing behavior.
5. The stat nerf is a hard counter to repeated killing and is something they want to have. To me, it sounds like playing as a "red" player will be a little different in this game then some others. You won't be able to kill forever and that's how they want it. If you get corruption, you wont want to hang onto it. We know there will probably be a quest you can do to remove corruption so my guess is you will want to stop killing and pursue this quest before your corruption gets so high that you can't defend yourself.
Honestly I doubt any changes will be made especially anything along the lines of what you are thinking
Thats nothing to be happy about. Bad and too restricted open world PvP will significantly reduce players base. I'm not a hardcore player killer I just want this system to be balanced. Killing other people in MMORPG is not a bad thing - its bad when u overdo it. Roleplaying an assasin or bandit is actualy very popular thing.
Low lvls should just lose adequately less when being killed by higher lvl.
Corruption system is okey. Its just item drops or deffubs not both - both is huge overkill and will couse open world pvp non existent.
If pvp player kill noobs he gain tons of corruption(im assuming its hard to lose corruption) the more corruption the bigger chance to lose items. What nub loses when being killed? almost nothing. What pro high level and high geared pvp player can lose when being very corupted? exp worth days of farm, items worth months of farm. The more corrupted he is the more people will chase him. No point in debuffs it's overkill af..
Its compleatly unbalanced.
That is why Ashes will have caravan raids, node sieges, castle sieges, guild wars, node wars and potentially other open world forms of PvP that do not make use of the corruption or flagging system.
If you are red, that is because you attacked a player that doesn't want to PvP to the point where they literally refused to fight back. It is not the normal state to be in after meaningful PvP, it is a potential state to be in after opportunistic bullying.
When there is no punishment for behaviour like that players beceome more and more unrespectful to each other.
Are you really worried a low lvl toon would interfere with a high lvl toon? That's a piss poor argument that lacks thought and context. Ending this behavior is so easy, it doesn't even nessisitate PvP. Unless ofc you have some self control issues and you are really wanting IS to cater to your personal dispositions. Let's hope they won't. Some of your thoughts, such as the toggle pvp option, sound horrible and contrary to the risk reward system IS has been working on.
Spot on call. To bully someone, by definition, is to use greater position (precieved or real) to intimidate or force another person into doing what you want them to.
In this case, the person was simply attacked untill dead. There was no goal or objective to get the other person to do anything except die. Or rather, if there was, then it was in fact an unsuccessful bullying attempt.
This is not to say that the situation cannot or will not devolve into bullying, but in this scenario has clearly not.
There will be toggle pvp option on/off anyway I just want it more complex so it can be more flexible. Right now there is little reward and huuuge risk. They should balance it somehow and im giving here ideas how that could be done.
LOL, not really, most are aimed at lessening the penalty for bad behavior. And by bad I mean bad. Like camping bodies, repetitive slaughtering low levels and probably exploiting camp grounds of lower level or small group players.
There will be plenty of opportunities in this game to fight, but being a pker will have it's price. It is one thing to pvp and quite another to pk someone 20 levels lower than you over and over.
What I sugest is to make open world pvp balanced, limited but not over punished.
(Yes i was abused by low lvl players quite alot and i also used this system to abuse others on my noob chars. I just want to protect this game from this grief.)
Annoy you? Troll you?
Stop being so precious.
Ignore them and they go away. People have better things to do than to waste time trying unsuccessfully to annoy people.
If they are putting their time in to attempting to get a reaction from you, and they don't get that reaction, you've won.
No need to change the game rules, no need to open things up to make it easy for players to use actual game mechanics to abuse other players (as your suggestions would do).
It isn't the game mechanics that need to change, it is your mindset.
And still I haven't heard even 1 good argument about how would any of this changes allow other players to abuse rules.
1.What is wrong with ability to fight back as a RED player?(I can understand green not fighting back = attacking player suffer consequences. But there is no logic in making RED unable to fight back)
2.What is wrong with felxible PvP switches?(there will be on\off switch anywya)
ect.
If u give good argument against all of my suggestions we can think of different methods to balance PvP more. I'm open to suggestions. I just want it balanced and I just... don't want another mmorpg with ubalanced PvP.
(btw. Without saying "why or how it will allow to abuse" it's not constructive criticism)
@Szejm
Here are the Problems with your points
I understand where you're coming from for this - its a double-edged-sword. But at the end of theday, in order to get a Red-name ... a *Green-named OR Purple-named player will have to continually attack ( and kill ) another Green-named player - and that same Green-named Player never fought back ONCE. Otherwise, the Green-named Player will turn Purple tooI've already seen this happen before in swtor - it'll ultimately split the community - resulting in additionally more players requesting PvE & PvP Servers ... which will then lead to Devs catering to these same-said-aforementioned players
( that requests PvE Servers & PvP Servers )
Because that's where most of the Income for the MMO is coming from - hence: these same-said-aformentioned Players threatening to leave
- which would ultimately make this MMO F2P in a heartbeat - leaving the Devs with no other choice BUT to cater to the Overly-eccentric CareBears
- Thus creating the Split PvE Servers & PvP Servers
I'm well-aware the situation with SWTOR is deeper than that - especially since Disney now owns Star Wars ... But the point in this, is that I've seen this happen before - and its like Cancer ... it'll inevitably desensitize/ worsen everything like a (f!cking) diseaseBeing able to switch from PvP modes & PvE Modes ? Thats basically the EXACT SAME CONCEPT of SWTOR's PvE Instance & PvP Instance - he!! no ... i don't want this MMORPG resembling swtor in anyway ... especially since its a WoW clone.
And i swear to (f!cking) God if this Idea stemmed from swtor ... i'm going to lose my sh!t
- SUCH AS EVERY ITEM BEING CUSTOMIZABLE -BUT CHANGING IT & RUSHING SWTOR BEFORE IT EVER FINISHED ( as stated from Kid Lee )
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79MdCn6ZQtQ
- ~~~~feel free to watch the whole video ... but the timestamp 3:33 is most notable in regards to how it relates to what i said~~~~
... they can kindly go fug-off and fall in a ditch for all i care ...This sounds alot like " Organized Open-World PvP " ... which would effectively make Open-World PvP stale, dull and predictable real fast, real quick There's a big difference between "Organized Open-World PvP" vs "True Open-World PvP" - true open world PvP is sporadic. Organized Open-World PvP is no different from Arena-PvP imho - and i personally don't like this idea
The only way to kill a Green player ... is if the Green-player didn't fight back. Meaning the Red-Named are the only ones who benefits from this. Meaning ...
This would mean that the PvPer(s) would just troll the Respawn spot for 25mins with no repercussions ? NOPE.. This would ultimately lower the player-base, due to Players raging over PvPers trolling the Respawn Spot(s).
Lowering the Player-base = fewer subscriptions = turning into an F2P
No-can-do
This is the only thing the Corruption System has to effectively try to balance PvEers & PvPers. However, from a different POV, i understand what you mean. But that depends on How big of a stats-reduction the Corruption-Score does on
- via Lvl 1 Corruption = [insert dmg reduction number/ percentage ?]
- via Lvl 2 Corruption = [insert dmg reduction number/ percentage ?]
- and so on
I think further testing wold bring further-clarity on thisBut not having NO repercussion whatsoever for attacking & killing a Green-name who didn' fight back is ... well .... its already bad ... since the Green-named Player would've made it clear that he/she did not want to engage.
Understandable from the POV from the PvPer ... but comfortably in favor of the PvEer
Thank u for your long replay. I really appreciate this. Here is my point of view with real life(game) examples.
I follow this logic:
1.) Green player = pve player, he doesn’t want to fight at all. When green attacks someone (no matter who) he become PvP player, because he is the one who engaged PvP. So Red should be able to defend himself against other pvp player.
This kind of sick situation was i Black Desert. U are Red, often even by mistake or trap, u want to lose corruption, but u can't because green players keeps engaging in pvp and u are defenseless, u can't fight back and u keep running away like headless chicken.
2.) This traps and mistakes were possible because there was only "on and off pvp" switch. The thing u didn’t understand here is these switches affect only YOUR skills. U can still be attacked even when u have PVE switch ON. These switches are necessary so u can decide who u want attack (no one/everyone/only PvP players(red/violet). In BDO it was possible to sneaky corruption bomb someone. It works like this:
-One-person attack u or provoke u to pvp(pvp switch on - u attack anyone who is in range).
-His low lvl friends wait somewhere close.
-U fight that person.
-When u don’t pay attention his friends jump into ur aoe skill - u kill like 3-4-5 people with 1 skill because they intentionally jumped in(low lvls, no items equiped ect.).
-U become RED they relog, they kill u = u lose exp, items ect..
And when u are red - Look 1.) - they chase u everywhere and they don’t let u lose corruption and u can't even fight back.
3.)It seems there will be something like that anyway(caravanas, nodes, sieges ect.). Best exp zones imho should be in that system too but well.. u cant have everything. And its never dull and predictable u can never know who and when will jump u :P i can give up on this suggestion.
4)Ye i know its drastic mechanic but I hate when people don’t understand “spot taken leave or die” and even after death they keep coming back xD Lets say u won here this one is a bit too drastic and it might lower the Player-base.
5.) Red lose 4 times more exp, 4 times more durability, they lose precious items, they have bounty on their heads, their location is exposed. More corruption = bigger bounty = more bounty hunters chasing you(they know ur location). It shouldnt be so easy for bounty hunters to get huge bounty. There shouldn't be any debuff if so many players chase u anyway.. if they catch u u'r most likely dead anyway. Devs say it's "risk and reward system" in this matter its huge risk(when u kill someone) and very little reward. So it doesnt fit this system at all. In my opinion its chance to lose Item OR debuff- not both.
To sum up for me 1,2 and 5 are still important to implement to the game system.
Okay let’s see this video
edit:
well ye even from my perspective (I didn’t play this game) these changes were stup*d. But I think our devs are smarter than that. They won’t make mistakes like that.
- When Green Player attacks Red Player, Green Player remains Green - regardless which attacked first
In the 2nd segment/ portion ... although you make a good point - thats the intention of the Corruption System. The only known two ways to remove Corruption are- Death
- Doing Religious Quests from the Religion Node ... which could be quite the ... "Pilgrimage" depending on where the Religion Node is at + the Node of your Citizenship ( i.e. Node Location seems to be crucial - especially since Insta-Travel will not exists )
-
Speaking of whichthe Scenario you described seems like a Hardcore OSRS Tactic imo
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdxriZkkWDw&t=0s&list=PLW3uDwWj5WJgRZA89PmR2SLAfGASm00sl&index=62
... so i guess that would depend greatly on many other things ... things that have not been tested yet to be more precisedWhile the Caravan may be a default hotspot for PvP ... no one will know precisely where its at .... unless ...
- It can be seen from high-above in the Sky via a Node Leader's Dragon Mount (which is the only mount that can fly ...which would also be in question as to ofter it can be used ... something noteworthy in testing phases
- If the Caravan is on a default set-route and no player has control over how it gets from Point A - Point B ( i.e. Manual Player Control vs Automated Control ... also something noteworthy of asking during testing phases )
- Will the Node Leader ( or any citizen with "high-ranking" (if this is a thing ) ) ... can anyone change the travel direction of the Caravan by a Player via Node Leader/ "high-ranking-citizen" (if this a thing) , etc ...
- If the Caravan is being Pulled by Horse ( or some other animal ... ) ... and if the Caravan is in Sync with the Day&Night System ... would the Animals need to stop and take a break to rest ? Would the Players who's riding along in the Caravan (guarding the expedition) have to also set-up Camp ? Or maybe choose to rest at an Inn within the Node's ZOI ? ( not the main town .... but a Village of some sort that shares the ZOI Influence ) Would Players be willing to spend an entire venture of that ? Who would ( i think RPers would tbh ) ? Can Guild(s) ask for replacements to defend the Caravan if someone has to log-off via RL stuff ? All noteworthy questions that should asked during testing phases ...
- probably other stuff to consider - can't think of them atm
The bulletins above would really make others happy - promoting the social aspect - as evident of these Threads- https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/136565#Comment_136565
- https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/39184/i-still-would-like-to-see-labor-camps-in-aoc
I also recall reading Threads similar to the two mentioned above when i 1st join back in April 2017 - definitely noteworthy tooI think @UnknownSystemError confirmed that Steven said that a Player would to specifically target another player in order to initiate any " name-color-changing " . Even if i'm wrong, it'll soon to be tested-out
About those traps you mentioned ... i did actually think of something like this - the "Digging Idea"
- https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/35857/strategic-digging#latest
- The player wouldn't have to use a shovel - either Magic or "Tools" specialized in digging ( each "Tool" digging a different-sized-hole )
- PvP-wise: Traps could hidden inside of them set by Players. Limit to 1 or 2 per player. Most notably ... a Player can "hide a few of their tems" ... ( but not ALL items in inventory ) ... in these Boxes ( including armor ) ... if they die ... (any-colored-name) ... they could come back to this spot to re-claim these items ... unless someone else found it and took it themselves ...
- PvE-wise: treasure, potions, "rare crafting materials not found anywhere else" (except maybe mining) and torn clothing/armor/items (that could be reconstructed differently depending on the type of Artisan the player has)
- I would've like to see this happen since it seemed like something that EQN kinda had - destructible environments ; hoping that this idea would ... "revive" this EQN idea
So in short, i understand what you mean - it could even be balanced-out for both PvP & PvE enjoyment. Unsure of the RPers though - some might like it, some might notLastly, the 5th idea ... i personally think that'll be based on the type of Action Combat intrepid produces ( i.e. further testing ) - imagine trying to escape a chase with Action-Combat ? and your Pursers are also using Action-Combat too (think of Anime if it helps) ? In addition to the Traps ... and the " Level of Elevation " i've mentioned many times before ... we'd have to wait and see "how Intrepid sets the Stage" first i suppose. Hopefully lots of abilities too that can be used ( via "mix-&-match" ) for a variety of situations. Because it would also depend if Level and/or Gear is the sole-deciding-factor of a Victor. Including other things that have yet to be tested and/or considered.
So as long as its not spammable nor too easy - to where there's no fun
They want you to leave an area, but you don't.
Now what are they going to do?
There is literally *NOTHING* they can do to you other than try to trigger you. If you let yourself get triggered by them, that is on you.
Taking the list in the OP
1; if red players are allowed to fight back without consequence, it gives players that prefer a non-PvP playstyle no path of recourse against PvP kills. The reason players are allowed to stay green and attack a red player (unless you are a bounty hunter, in which case you have to be purple) is specifically so these people can fight back without opening themselves up to other unwanted PvP.
2; this whole thing is a moot point - there are already mechanics to provide this effect.
3; Unlike other games, contention for resources in Ashes comes during transportation, rather than during gathering. There is absolutely no need to have resources contested both while being gathered and then later on while being transported.
4; this would result in players feeling like they have a 25 minute window in which to abuse that player as much as they possibly can - as they suffer no additional penalty for anything that happens in that window.
5; this would result in the same situation every other MMO with open PvP ends up with. The best geared players form up, kill who ever t hey want and since no one can kill them, they suffer no consequences for their actions. Stat penalties are a means of guaranteeing that players that PK will eventually be killed.
The end result of all of this isn't so much people abusing the rules as it is the game no longer making sense.
---
If a low level player is following you, killing mobs that you pull, then the issue isn't with that player. The issue is with the player that can't come up with any way of dealing with that situation.
Learn how to train mobs.
But what if he doesnt want to attack anyone?
I think there is no option for that.
If you target someone with a single target ability and attack them, that is called force attacking.
That action turns you purple. If they choose not to attack back, they stay green. If they attack back they also become purple. If you kill them while they are green, or they die while the timer on your flagging on them is still active, you gain corruption and turn red. Red players can attack anyone purple or green, but if they kill more greens, they get more corruption, with increasing penalties. Anyone, purple or green can attack a red. Once you are red, the system considers you just like a monster and you are out of the flagging mechanics.
Sorry guys but i will answer u tommorw after my "B.A. defence/exam". I need to prepare a little
2.I understand this "system". I feel like "force attacking" system is very flawed. I want pvp to be deliberate and aware. We need very detailed and polished pvp system.
"U need to target someone and single attack.." e.g.:
so what when there are many people that u want to attack at once? u need to target with a single target ability and atack evey single one of them before u can aoe? Just wtf. That doesnt make sense at all.
<i feel like discusing all of this points at once is too hard so i will divide it a little>