Dev Discussion #2 - Solo Gameplay

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Comments

  • megsmegs Member, Royalty
    Lot's of great comments in this thread. But I gotta ask the question for all those that think solo play in an MMORPG is good and should be encouraged.

    Whats the point? Why spend time and money playing a online Multiplayer game only to shun all the other players as best as possible?
    There are a lot of single player RPG's out there that seem like they would be more to you liking.
    In the end it is your $15 but I am curious as to why?

    Honestly, I believe that lots of people solo due to necessity and appreciate the ability to do so ..... however I haven't yet come across anyone who would ask for it to be encouraged.

    I often solo play, but this IS an MMO, anyone who denies that and is still unhappy might need to look at their understanding of the language.

    The only reason I myself mentioned getting group players involved in solo style play, was because:

    If the game has been being plugged as suitable for all playstyles, then the devs SHOULD address and attempt to make good content for ALL playstyles.

    To not do so would be failing to challenge themselves to make the game they initially appeared to be wanting.

    IF they do that job and ALL playstyles have great unique content, then, and only then, encourage it, but only so people get an opportunity to recognise the full depth of the game and don't only find out about what chances for certain rewards etc they've missed once it's too late.





  • megsmegs Member, Royalty
    edited May 8
    This...
    We want the solo to be challenging and engaging. Not a single player rpg game.
    Mmorpgs are about players playing together or against online in the same environment.
    ezenkrul87 wrote: »
    Last time I checked this is a massively multi-player online game or did it change?

    Quote:
    "Multiple playstyles should be relevant and viable. Additionally, you have a spread between casual players and hard-core players; and most of us exist somewhere on that spectrum. The progression path in a society or religion is more conducive to the time we have to play. Whereas, someone else may be playing several hours a day, and they have a better opportunity for the raid/level progression that might require some more dedication. So we want to have these different progression paths available to accommodate the different times in our lives that we have to play the game. And all of those types of progressions will make us relevant in some way shape or form to the general world."
    – Steven Sharif. Livestream, 8 April 2018 (28:38).

    Translation: Sometimes life sucks and you have no choice but to solo.
  • PragmaticPragmatic Member, Founder
    Solo play in itself should have it's own rewards because mmos naturally reward group play. Faster kill times for mobs, faster dungeon runs, more chances to obtain specific loot, open world PvP advantages, etc.

    Add the Node system into the equation and groups have a very clear advantage when it comes to building, maintaining, and destroying nodes which is a big part of the game.
  • ashlynmaeashlynmae Member
    Stats show that a lot of players run solo, so I would hope that a player could enjoy the full extent of the game as a solo player, while jumping into group content as desired on occasion.
  • santy182santy182 Member, Braver of Worlds
    In my opinion groups only expand your experience. if the solo experience is bad, the group experience will be just as bad or make it worse. But if the game is fundamentally fun even for a solo player, then playing in a group will only make it better.
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  • elronpaperguruelronpaperguru Member, Founder
    as many already stated, i think there should be plenty of meaningfull opportunities for an epic lone wolfing experience only limited in it's awesomeness due to missing mates filling the gap you got to reach to make that world-shifting event happen.
  • thecouchnerdthecouchnerd Member, Braver of Worlds
    For me solo content in a MMO would be doing the odd quest chain, farming crafting materials (raid consumables, etc), farming gold, doing repeatable quests to farm reputation, etc. Those kind of things. Basically do things to help you prepare for group content.
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  • rohkairohkai Member, Braver of Worlds
    I enjoy solo play just as much as group play. It really just comes down to my mood that day. Sometimes I just want to go crawling through a solo, instanced delve/dungeon to challenge myself, and get loot. Said loot could just be to replenish my coffers with gold, it could be to get better equipment for my character, or gather rare resources for my crafting addiction. Other times I want to go into a zone that is a little too hard to do alone, and just meet random new friends along the way. Don't forget the giant puzzles please. I loved that part of DDO.

    How far should solo progression go? I think it should be an avenue for the Hybrid/Jack of all trades players to get the very best possible equipment for that type of build. It should NOT have rewards to progress top tier raiding rolls like healer, tank, DPS, ect.
  • daedelusdaedelus Member, Phoenix Initiative, Avatar of the Phoenix
    At the end of the day, this is a massive multiplayer game and there should definitely be incentives or systems to facilitate that group interaction. One of the core tenants of the Ashes of Creation design is player driven meaningful conflict. That can’t happen if everyone is soloing as a primary form of play. That’s not to say solo players can’t or shouldn’t be able to contribute to the world or progress their character. However, it does mean to me that the majority of the activities in the game would make more sense to involve other players.

    I see it simply as content escalation. There should be activities that can be done as a solo player but larger, more complex encounters for group-play. I think leveling to max should be possible solo, but there should be meaningful incentives for grouping - inherently, there will should be a distinct tradeoff of efficiency/speed by choosing solo vs group play.

    I think once a player reaches max level, there should be activities or contributions they can make to the world and their progression in multiple systems (individual class or faction quests that offer progression, gathering/crafting to a point) but certain major events, all dungeons and raids, highest tiers of crafting should not be soloable. It should require a community of players. I do feel there should be mechanisms in game to be able to facilitate groups forming - no, I'm not talking about a global group finder aka WoW as that goes against the concept of meaningful travel but there should be ways to connect with others in towns/taverns like the team has already hinted at.

    I think it's important for players to feel like they matter and their role or class is relevant - as an individual or as a group member. That does not mean content should be homogenized to satisfy a solo playstyle - it should just offer separate and independent rewards and progression that is meaningful for the time invested.

    This frankly is a paradigm shift from a lot of the current MMO market. The solo playstyle mentality I feel has contributed to making MMOs less about the community/relationships in-game and more about self-centered goals. Solo play has a place but not as the primary focus of a MMO.

    Cheers,
    Daedelus
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  • hulkmasterhulkmaster Member, Pioneer
    In my humble opinion solo gameplay is improtant, but!

    I like how guild wars 2 "solo experience" is made - generally you can wonder alone, accomplish nearly every easy or medium alone, some hardcore players could even complete hard events in solo, but whenever more player appear - event just becomes harder, and basically everyone are having some challenge, fun and reward.

    But hard and legendary level quests could not be completed alone.

    So basically solo gameplay is possible on "below hard" level, but if you want to achieve something really important - you need other players

    And i think best example would be "Triple trouble" event, or whole "Dragons Stand" map
  • ZenniaZennia Member, Braver of Worlds
    I know that MMORPG's are, by definition, Massively *Multiplayer* but I tend to enjoy it more for the "RPG" piece while appreciating having the other players as ambiance to make the world feel "alive". ....Admittedly, that ambiance sometimes has a tendency to shout profanity in general chat but for the most part, it's a good thing, lol.

    I tend to be a bit shy in game just as I am in real life and also after a full day of work plus college, a lot of times, I just want to relax and go wander in the wilderness, kill some animals, harvest some plants and sell my spoils to other players at the end of the day. If there's gameplay designed to let me do that in AoC, I'll be a happy sometimes-soloer!
  • I say open world content should be mostly solo. Events and such would be the exception. One person shouldn’t be able to ward off a dragon attacking a city for instance. Quests could also be marked as group quests that convey that the player needs to get friends. This is basic mmo stuff though and isn’t really that new.
  • retnaburnretnaburn Member, Braver of Worlds
    I think the best game I ever played that had a system for both solo and group play was GemStone 3. I played a Rogue and I made 90% of my levels and XP without ever leaving town. I sat at the well and disarmed and picked open box's that people got while out hunting. I was solo and a group player all at the same time. I wish more games were built on class skills meaning something and not just damage dealer type A: sword, B spell, C: range, D: 2 hand, etc. I want to play my class for its skills not because what kind of damage I can do. I want to be able to solo gain exp using my skill's outside of combat as well as grouped up fighting the big baddy's. I think all should have the choice on how they play. some only get a short amount of
    time to play each session and can't get involved with the time sink to find/make a group and run a dungeon or raid while others have 24/7 365 to play and can afford the time sink to run dungeon's and raids as many times a day as they want/stay awake for. Me personally for AoC, I think I would like to spend my time making and running the best craft shop X where I can be both solo and a huge social player all that the same time. I know I am wishful thinking here but stop worrying about those that think they should be entitled to play a healer that can also be top DPS and PVPer. a fighter should fight, a healer should heal, a rogue should sneak attack and pick, a cc'er should cc, etc. no class should be the best at everything or it just runes grouping systems and the game as a whole. that's my two cents worth.
  • gurbashgurbash Member, Braver of Worlds
    I would definitely say, as the paradoxical person who plays most MMO's alone and has a hard time socialising with strangers, that being able to beat at least a moderate amount of content solo is important. Of course, since this is an MMORPG with goals of reviving the MMO part, some content absolutely can't be done unless you have a whole guild's worth of people at your disposal.
  • dancerdancer Member
    For me. I play solo most of the time because of RL where I have to leave the game with no notice. So I will be a very nerveouse, scared little rabbit out in the open going from one place to another to perform.
  • frite707frite707 Member, Pioneer
    I, for one, prefer to be lone wolf. I honestly feel like there should be no detriment to playing solo in terms of "how far should a lone wolf be able to go?". In fact, I believe that playing solo should be provided with some sort of benefit as to not be bullied out by other players or groups.
  • sarevoksarevok Member
    frite707 wrote: »
    I, for one, prefer to be lone wolf. I honestly feel like there should be no detriment to playing solo in terms of "how far should a lone wolf be able to go?". In fact, I believe that playing solo should be provided with some sort of benefit as to not be bullied out by other players or groups.

    I'm genuinely curious what you get out of an MMO if you mainly play solo. I'm not saying your play style is wrong it just seems other RPGs would be more built with that play style in mind.

    On the topic though I do also think that playing solo should be equal in opportunity than playing with a group. Obviously, much slower and more difficult but more rewarding (less sharing loot or materials).

    Higher risk for more reward.
  • sarevoksarevok Member
    This particular topic is always difficult to quickly put into words a proper solution. I would really need to have more information about the game and its systems that I would not be privy to so I could build a flow chart to express the trail of thought.

    Goal: To become the strongest player I can through skills and gear while enjoying the time invested into the game. Have fun while being the best.

    All players must be able to pursue this goal in some shape or form that is enjoyable and challenging. For most solo players grinding areas for specific drops, harvesting specific resources or materials for crafting or other fun yet profitable options should be made available. More options may be implemented such as applying for guard duty for caravans, contracted by the local Lord for specific needs, PvP oriented rewards that are on par with PvE rewards, or opening a player store where you can spend your days crafting whatever you want for the local node and other customers. I think freedom is the key word here and it is very difficult for game developers to capture that essence.

    -A solo player should be able to attain the 2nd best in slot items via a long crafting process (or very close tie with first) which they can do alone if they so choose. The ability to craft the best gear in the game would simply ruin the need to engage in parties or raids for content that the devs put a lot of time in to for us to enjoy.
    -A solo player should be able to reach max level from 1 - finish without being gated by the necessity to play in a group. i.e. A main quest that is placed in a dungeon that requires a party to complete.
    -A solo player should NOT be able to complete a dungeon alone just because the player does not wish to play with a group. If that player wants to test their skills they may attempt the dungeons beyond the suggested level range and still may require assistance.

    Just weigh the risk to reward ratio and understand solo players should be slower to progress in certain things than doing things with a group of friends or guild members.
  • xzemisxzemis Member, Braver of Worlds
    The best part of solo play for me in a mmorpg is a dynamic changing world and interactions with other players that couldnt otherwise be replicated with robotic npcs. I'm a closet introvert who pretends to enjoy people but get tired of the interaction quickly, on the contrary I always enjoy my me time alone or with a good friend or 2. That said if it's like Ark and too heavily based on group play then im out. Often times its hard to schedule online life are real life and such so its nice just to play on your own schedule and without NEEDing a guild or higher backing. A small core group of mayne 3-5 should be able to make it to or near top players/guilds IMO. With ability to solo and make progress while doing so. Mass numbers shouldnt define the power of a guild.
  • uniquelyduniquelyd Member, Braver of Worlds
    Like many players, I am a full-time working adult with infants, so I have to get my gaming in during the early morning ( usually before 5-6 am.) It would be great to have enough content to allow solo players to feel like they are progressing and have accomplishments that have an impact on the game world. It's not always easy for some players to find a group of players that share the same type of time constraints adulting can put on gaming, so allowing solo players to contribute is huge for me. I don't remember this being discussed but since there will be open world dungeons, maybe it would be a good idea to allow solo players or small parties to assist one another openly (similar to GW2s open world system but with better incentives) - or - how about having a few dungeons a section dedicated strictly to solo play. These solo play sections don't have to force parties to break up but could force them to complete certain sections individually based on there base class and reunite later for deeper dungeon dives or give the option to retreat from the dungeon. I completely agree this MMO should promote party play but enough solo content is must.
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Lot's of great comments in this thread. But I gotta ask the question for all those that think solo play in an MMORPG is good and should be encouraged.

    Whats the point? Why spend time and money playing a online Multiplayer game only to shun all the other players as best as possible?
    There are a lot of single player RPG's out there that seem like they would be more to you liking.
    In the end it is your $15 but I am curious as to why?
    I love to socialize in many ways with other players: parties, contests, classes, flash mobs...
    I love to check out what other players are wearing, what pets and mounts they've collected and how they've decorated their homes.
    I love emoting with and talking with players I run past, especially if I can give them a quick buff.
    I love being able to quickly lend a hand if another player is struggling with a task.

    I don't like being stuck adventuring in a group with players who have a different playstyle than I do:
    My Bartle score is Explorer 87; Socializer 73; Achiever 47; Killer 0.
    It is not fun to be stuck in a group with a bunch of KA or AKs who have little to no interest in exploring.
    Those super-efficient speed runs are not at all fun for me.
    I also hate wasting time waiting around for raid groups to form - especially when some kid has to leave for dinner the moment we finally filled the final spot.
    And I don't like being pressured to stick around for the next quest or another run through the dungeon/raid.

    I love playing alongside and with other players. I don't like being forced into formal groups like parties and raids.

    In Ashes, we can't defend or win a siege or caravan alone. We can't successfully defend a Node against a monster coin attack alone. But, that shouldn't mean we have to join an 8-person party or a 40-person raid to help with those.
    I should be able to be solo - not in a party or raid - and still participate in those battles.
    I expect I will join social organizations and become a citizen of a node... I might even join a (very casual) guild.

    Typically there are many, many ways to play with other players in an MMORPG without "grouping".
    Grouping should just be one option among many other options. Rather than character progression becoming tedious if you refuse to group.
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    sarevok wrote: »
    This particular topic is always difficult to quickly put into words a proper solution. I would really need to have more information about the game and its systems that I would not be privy to so I could build a flow chart to express the trail of thought.

    Goal: To become the strongest player I can through skills and gear while enjoying the time invested into the game. Have fun while being the best.

    All players must be able to pursue this goal in some shape or form that is enjoyable and challenging.
    This seems like an Achiever/Killer goal.
    I don't think that goal has a lot of value for an Explorer/Socializer playstyle or a Socializer/Explorer playstyle.
    As an ESAK, my primary goals are to explore - especially new content - and experience a dynamic story.
    I like acquiring new abilities that will help me successfully complete my quests - they don't necessarily have to be stronger abilities. They don't necessarily have to be the strongest abilities.
    With a Bartle score of E87; S73; A47; K0, I'm content to experience different content, not necessarily stronger content. If all that is left to explore is stronger content, then yeah, I'd want to increase my strength enough to be able to survive exploring that content reasonably well. I don't necessarily have to be the strongest.

    For an MMORPG, it's important to design for the variety of playstyles...
    Which is more than just Achiever/Killers and Killer/Achievers.
    (Also must design for Casuals as well as Hardcores - on both the time and challenge spectrums)
  • I would appreciate some Solo Gameplay. I enjoy groups but some times you dont want to be held down by some friends/party members
  • nightwolfj2nightwolfj2 Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited May 11
    rohkai wrote: »
    I enjoy solo play just as much as group play. It really just comes down to my mood that day. Sometimes I just want to go crawling through a solo, instanced delve/dungeon to challenge myself, and get loot. Said loot could just be to replenish my coffers with gold, it could be to get better equipment for my character, or gather rare resources for my crafting addiction. Other times I want to go into a zone that is a little too hard to do alone, and just meet random new friends along the way. Don't forget the giant puzzles please. I loved that part of DDO.

    How far should solo progression go? I think it should be an avenue for the Hybrid/Jack of all trades players to get the very best possible equipment for that type of build. It should NOT have rewards to progress top tier raiding rolls like healer, tank, DPS, ect.

    My sentiments exactly, you hit the nail right on the head there. One thing I would change though, I don't think there should be a set for a solo or Jack of all trades. Sure a person can go do small things but for the really big things in the game that should take a team/party.

    Just like in real life, a person can be a tavern owner, but can't be a one man army.
  • ritchieshritchiesh Member
    A solo player should be able to continue to play the game Solo from level 1 to the cap, dungeons and group quests leveling up make the experience more fun but they shouldn't be required... Even at cap a player should be able to jump into an instanced battle ground or go out and do crafting/quests (hopefully dailies in ashes) and enjoy it without feeling like they need 2 or 3 other people
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  • blackghostblackghost Member, Braver of Worlds
    A player should NOT be able to cap in solo. The purpose of a MMO is to play with other people not to solo the game from start to finish. If you want to do so, play a single player game, there are plenty.
    Nowadays, companies tries to please everyone, to cash the game at his maximum , which is why they failed. All the good MMO's we had in the past were based on groups. Not on both , solo and group. Ok they had some solo content to start the game but not much. Allowing this game to be soloed all the way would be a mistake.
    You want to make MMO great again? Don't give much solo content and go back to the roots of MMo's.
    DAOC would be a good exemple .
    Simple as that.
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Ashes is not supposed to have a finish. Also, solo is not synonymous with single-player.
    In an MMORPG, solo isn't really even synonymous with alone.
    The roots of MMORPGs have always included solo play - and we have always been able to reach max level without grouping.
  • nestharusnestharus Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People
    dygz, while it is true that players have always been able to reach level cap without grouping in MMOs, the old MMOs weren't designed to allow that. People found ways around the designs to do it. More of trying, at any cost, to figure out how to solo rather than play the game the way it was designed and intended to be played.
  • AevarisAevaris Member
    Lone Wolf should be able to play much/most of the game. Some folks, like me, only have 2-3 hours per day maximum to play. Coordinating a party or finding a party to do group actions would eat into those few hours when sometimes its nice to just go out and do something without needing to waste half of the time finding a group.

    Groups should be more efficient, better, more effective, etc through synergies, but there should still be things I can do on my own when there isn't anyone around.
  • jodypsejodypse Member
    nestharus wrote: »
    dygz, while it is true that players have always been able to reach level cap without grouping in MMOs, the old MMOs weren't designed to allow that. People found ways around the designs to do it. More of trying, at any cost, to figure out how to solo rather than play the game the way it was designed and intended to be played.
    I would have to disagree. Most MMORPG's are set up to have multiple ways to play them, not an intentionally single way designed into it. Most single player RPG's have though though even those are attempting to have more ways to manage the game than the "main plot".
    The whole intention with gathering, exploring, crafting, hobbies, and more, is to allow for specific solo play while still being part of the community by selling and trading and crafting for others than self.
    While there are those that try to find ways to so group contents solo, I am not saying there aren't, those are a minority, not a large group at all, of the gamers. Even so saying that they are not playing the game as designed might still be wrong. The game designers might have actually made their type of play possible in some instances, or not made the design with the thought of stopping them so if they find a way then they find a way.

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