All high yield content (Epic or Legendary items that drop from monsters should be group content.)
Personally i would love more forced group play.
Tera Korea did this well.
After Level 20 you enterd an area were all Monsters where Elites that needed at least 3 people to kill.
They had More HP, did more dmg and had better moves then your avarge solo monster.
IT was fun and people with good group play advanced much faster.
In the Western Version of the game they made all the monsters into normal so People could Solo them.
That turned out Booring as Hell.
MMO Means Massive Multiplayer Online. There is no S for Singelplayer.
Socializing should be required for group content, and most of ashes crafting, pve, pvp all already require that in order to progress.
If I want to go exploring ashes world of Vera I shouldnt need anyone with me just to explore the world and look around. Now the risk I take of running into hostile players or a world event is the incentive for grouping up. Not to kill a standard npc enemy with no special drops or materials.
All i ask is don't discount a solo player from getting epic gear(doesn't have to be legendary) in a end game environment. Make it tough, make it a grind, make it unbearable, make it so most think F'that, but make it achievable for those with a will to do so. I really dislike getting onto a game and get bombarded with demands to (get on TS/vent) discord. I play games to have fun like the rest of you. i don't find it fun to always have to wear a headset 24/7 while playing. I did the whole group PvP guild not as GM but as his right hand,yes; sure i had many of fun times but games become stale if they are too organized. I began server hopping to test my skills on supposefully better pvp servers. PvP to me is much more satisfying as that solo hero. My favorite way to pass time is to hunt those who like to grief others. Let me gear so i can grief the griefers please.
All high yield content (Epic or Legendary items that drop from monsters should be group content.)
Personally i would love more forced group play.
Tera Korea did this well.
After Level 20 you enterd an area were all Monsters where Elites that needed at least 3 people to kill.
They had More HP, did more dmg and had better moves then your avarge solo monster.
IT was fun and people with good group play advanced much faster.
In the Western Version of the game they made all the monsters into normal so People could Solo them.
That turned out Booring as Hell.
MMO Means Massive Multiplayer Online. There is no S for Singelplayer.
Do you have any experience playing games with non-faction based open world pvp? Applying PVE game content to games with completely different PvP systems isn't going to return the same results you're seeking.
Now if you're in a large guild and can constantly find groups, it's less of a concern however if you're in a smaller guild or no guild and have to seek groups by "LFG" type of shout/chat/grouping systems it opens up a vastly different reality for these players.
While AoC isn't going to be able to make everyone happy by default antagonizing the low hanging fruit of solo, new, casual and un-guilded players seems like a bad step towards growing the game and community within it.
Let's say you're a new to the game, leveled up to 10 and made it out into some more intense areas that now require "groups of 3+" to kill the average monsters this zone also requires your character to go into combat for entering it. Well you've decided to group up with 2 cool looking dudes or dudettes and roll out of town. Get to your quest or zone and start killing the monsters, few hours in you need to log out for the night, you've got X amount of gold/items/mats etc after several hours of grouping with these guys they decide well we appreciate your help killing monsters but we want your things before you log off. Now you've just been killed by the same group you've been with for hours and lost hours worth of items because well the game forced you to group.
In theory the story could play out the same had you been solo killing the same NPCs for hours and those same two players showed up and killed you, however in this scenario you at least had the choice to group or not. In concept the XP and item gain should move quicker in the group for specific reasons like healing, damage and group composition however forcing it simply because the game is an MMO is in my opinion wrong. Massively multi player does not or should not require grouping. Keep in mind this is a RPG which means players should have the option to role player or choose their playstyle within the world.
Tyrantor
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
All high yield content (Epic or Legendary items that drop from monsters should be group content.)
Personally i would love more forced group play.
Tera Korea did this well.
After Level 20 you enterd an area were all Monsters where Elites that needed at least 3 people to kill.
They had More HP, did more dmg and had better moves then your avarge solo monster.
IT was fun and people with good group play advanced much faster.
In the Western Version of the game they made all the monsters into normal so People could Solo them.
That turned out Booring as Hell.
MMO Means Massive Multiplayer Online. There is no S for Singelplayer.
Do you have any experience playing games with non-faction based open world pvp? Applying PVE game content to games with completely different PvP systems isn't going to return the same results you're seeking.
Now if you're in a large guild and can constantly find groups, it's less of a concern however if you're in a smaller guild or no guild and have to seek groups by "LFG" type of shout/chat/grouping systems it opens up a vastly different reality for these players.
While AoC isn't going to be able to make everyone happy by default antagonizing the low hanging fruit of solo, new, casual and un-guilded players seems like a bad step towards growing the game and community within it.
Let's say you're a new to the game, leveled up to 10 and made it out into some more intense areas that now require "groups of 3+" to kill the average monsters this zone also requires your character to go into combat for entering it. Well you've decided to group up with 2 cool looking dudes or dudettes and roll out of town. Get to your quest or zone and start killing the monsters, few hours in you need to log out for the night, you've got X amount of gold/items/mats etc after several hours of grouping with these guys they decide well we appreciate your help killing monsters but we want your things before you log off. Now you've just been killed by the same group you've been with for hours and lost hours worth of items because well the game forced you to group.
In theory the story could play out the same had you been solo killing the same NPCs for hours and those same two players showed up and killed you, however in this scenario you at least had the choice to group or not. In concept the XP and item gain should move quicker in the group for specific reasons like healing, damage and group composition however forcing it simply because the game is an MMO is in my opinion wrong. Massively multi player does not or should not require grouping. Keep in mind this is a RPG which means players should have the option to role player or choose their playstyle within the world.
Iv been Playing MMORPGs for 20 years now and have expirienced all sites.
Im just tired of the "dungeon / Group finder" MMORPG generation where everyone can do everything.
Where is the content that only the best of the best can do?
So you look at the guys and gals that did it and feel respect, awe and someone to look to, something to archive if you and your Friends work really hard at your skills.
I get you so i Agree that fully forcing someone to group up is a no go but i would still make Groups a lot more efficient in both EXP and loot then solo play.
Ragnarok did it in a rather nice way.
Sure you could solo level.
But do 3 People group and you get 20% Bonus Exp and Loot Modifies
Do 6 People group and you get 40% and 8 people 60%.
(Loot modifier in the sense of. If the loot has a 1% chance to drop then you add a 60% modifier to that so 1% * 1,60 = 1,6% loot chance
Rare loot is still rare but has a slight higher chance to drop yet trash loot with already high drop chance has a much higher chance to drop.)
I would much prefer that solo content exist that can yield progress. Make it self contained, a quest, a "trial" something phased/instanced if need be, tune it from class to class so it's challenging but still within the skillset, difficult enough that not everyone can do it. It is possible to make solo content that's challenging enough to warrant a solo reward, in many cases the "difficulty" of a raid is simply getting people together, and not even the content itself, so you're essentially rewarding people for putting up with headaches and delays, versus actual aptitude.
Just a thought, I think games actually lack any real measure of solo progression, and not for any good justification these days I enjoyed the lengthy quests to unlock abilities in EQ, and deciding whether or not I wanted the safety of a group to take on optimal experience gain camps of monsters, versus the risk of playing solo and having to do so significantly more carefully. Have options for everyone, because not everyone wants to be social 24/7, or be in the "largest guilds". If the challenge falls to how many bodies you can assemble, I'm not a fan of it. There have of course been many games with challenging raid content above and beyond filling warm bodies, it just varies from game to game.
I get you so i Agree that fully forcing someone to group up is a no go but i would still make Groups a lot more efficient in both EXP and loot then solo play.
Sounds like we're saying the same thing then and would agree small groups would also be more ideal than needing to field a full group of 8 for general questing/PVE for level grind.
Tyrantor
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
- How do you feel about solo progression ?
In my opinion a MMO should provide a system that allows players to do a certain range of tasks by themselves, like XP until max level with quests, although some side quests that requires you to group and defeat a greater threat should be added to reward players that want to xp with other players to encourage social interactions. In regards to gathering and crafting I would say that you should be able to do most of it by yourself but interdependancy would be a really interesting dynamic especially for top tier items.
- How far should a player be able to progress as a lone wolf ?
I think that most of the end game content should be group requiring, because that doesn't make sense if you can take a dungeon or a raid by your own and get good rewards without the help of other players.
I might have a suggestion regarding dungeons : There should be dungeons corresponding to the whole level progression to give players the opportunity to xp together, and they shouldn't require a fix number of players to do it. If possible, there should be a range from 3 to 5 players (something like that) to do a dungeon, with the stats of the mobs (health, damage) corresponding to the number of players. More flexibility is very enjoyable and favors social interactions. To balance that, if you choose to do it with 5 players maybe you could have a slightly better chance of having a some rare loot, or even add some loot that gets shared between the members.
I was going to write, but buddy here said the same thing.
The only thing I would add to that is that. In regards to group making mechanics, I personally prefer party matching ( Like L2, Where you had a Lobby where you could sort of " Apply " to enter a list of available players or PM and talk to the party leader etc etc.). The Automatic Queue removes a lot of the Player to Player interaction. At least for " Dungeons ".
Now for Open World PVE... One player should be able to kill most of the " general world " monsters one by one, and if you want to farm, OP, AOE mass kill. then you need assemble a party group.
I like the idea of shouting in town and recruiting people for the bosses or dungeons, But with the ammount of people, spam is a thing, so a lobby/party matching lobby solves that, I think.
People often confuse the concept of multiplayer by determining that whoever wants to play solo must play single player games.
This is incorrect.
Playing alone in an MMORPG does not eliminate the interaction that exists in terms of sporadic and group participation of certain content, participation in commerce, interaction in global chat, being part of a virtual world inhabited by other players and facing the presence of rivals or competitors on the road.
Playing solo in an MMORPG is a personal choice and should be possible.
Is someone forced to do everything in a group in real life?
And if he wishes to do so, should he be expelled?
I do not think so, it is certainly demonstrated that even individually you can achieve the success that sometimes a large group of individuals cannot achieve.
This premise is based on the individual ability to face a challenge, improve, be efficient, etc.
I think that an MMORPG should allow a solo player to achieve the same goals and objectives as a group of players, perhaps not in the same scenario for design reasons but in an environment that allows measuring their capabilities and showing that they are worthy of get the same acces and rewards.
Nowadays it is common to see that MMORPGs hide the best content and rewards behind the team group mode, leaving solitary players unable to reach these goals.
Does this mean that players who complete group objectives stand out or are they better than those who choose to do it alone?
No, they only do it because the game is designed to limit access by number of players present.
As an example, 5 regular players can access items of great value compared to a single excellent player who does not have this possibility by design.
In addition, this model of limitation by number of players leads to well-known practices such as the ¨carry¨ where a group of players leads an inexperienced and low-performance player by the hand to get objects that are impossible for an excellent solo player to access.
The performance or ability of each player is not awarded, access is awarded for compliance with the number of players present.
It is a system that does not reward the dedication of each player and that is nourished by a simplistic model where it is not allowed to measure individual capabilities.
You can be the best in the game but if you are alone the limit by design leaves you stagnant, on the contrary you can be a terrible player but if you have the company of a good number of friends willing to take you by the hand, success is guaranteed and doors to the best content and rewards will be available.
How do you feel about solo progression? How far should a player be able to progress as a "lone wolf"?
That's an easy answer. The entire game, minus group content.
I think you could make soloers happier also by giving them a form of grouping.
It would be great to have a "2-man" dungeon open up on players freehold plots. These can be simple dynamic, diablo type dungeons that require an NPC healer that makes himself available outside the dungeon entrance to the player. There still should be a chance of risk and dying if the player isn't paying attention.
The loot doesn't have to be anything substantial but always improve upon what the player currently has. That +1 shield becomes a +2. Nothing impressive but still an upgrade and a sense of accomplishment. Drop in some resources to harvest/gather along the way and the player is contributing to the node growth.
I think you should be able to complete the leveling process solo. Most Crafting should be possible solo too. What you can do though is offer group shortcuts for both. Having group quests offer more experience and high level mobs with crafting reagants that a group can take down early.
I don't think there is any value in limiting the overall game to just group play. That is just going to make people quit if you can't do the basic gameplay of the game alone. The rewards for playing with others shouldn't really be that high either.
You don't really need to incentivize group play until end game. Where most activities are group play. People are going to naturally want to find a party to play with. So I don't think there will be a lot of soloers. However people will want to play when other's schedules don't necessarily match.
As the game is now you are already rewarded for having big groups in the caravan system. Where solo characters will risk getting their crap stolen. A group will kill anything that comes near it. That alone is as much a group advantage that needs to be in the game.
Anything up to a world/dungeon boss. I think those should require enough mechanics that would make it impossible to do alone. Id be fine with them even being able to grind ads leading up to boss room if they felt so inclined.
Solo progression should be possible for bad players 1 - 20. 21 - 30 for average players, 31 - 40 for good players and 50 - 60 for great players. This is at the same rate as in a grp. Otherwise solo'ing should be possible but it just takes a lot longer, you might have to grind a bit and be higher lvl. I'm a firm believer in higher lvl means more mechanics u need to understand. You can't just be a stronger player, but you have to be a smarter player. You shouldn't be "grinding" lvl 52 wolves who just auto-attack. The wolves better be monsters of death to be lvl 52 wolves, with 5 - 6 abilities that require me to think on my feet.
I do like a lot of what has been discussed here; thank you all.
Personally, I do think there should be plenty of solo(able) content out in the world of Vera. However, I also do not think all content should be meant for a solo player, not even just more difficult to do. Dungeons, raids, epic monsters and world bosses should require multiple players.
This is a MMORPG, working with others will be key. All for one and one for all!
Leveling to cap should possible solo, but depending on your class/gear generally not as effective as a small group of 2-3 players.
There should also be places that you just generally don't go solo. Not a tough as a dungeon but serious enough to where mobs plus pvp could be very dangerous. Basically higher risk better reward farm spots. If you needed a dial to put the corruption/bounty system to work you could place these spots across the level spectrum.
as a 100% solo the typical dungeons should be a no go. The main things I think of solo is just grinding mobs, gathering mats, pvp ganking and exploring. If there are class specific progression tasks though in the game that should be something typically soloable.
That being said I feel like some paths should be available for solo players in dungeon areas, but if too many players take the solo path then hordes of mobs spawn and it requires a group to continue.
there was nothing more satisfying in ESO, than completing Private 4 man dungeons by myself. I hope for there to be enough content for a significant amount of Solo PVE content.
The effort vs. reward balance more or less says it all. 40 players, working in a coordinated manner for X minutes to defeat a boss earns Y reward. I don't hate the idea then that a solo, god-tier player could then spend 40 times X minutes + more to account for the lack of synergy and, with enough skill and patience, accomplish the same task. It would require specializing, tremendous mastery of class and fight, gear, prep, and still probably a load of luck. I don't think the game should encourage this but leaving in the potential for the obsessive few seems ok. (There's always that one crazy player willing to kite for hours to kill a boss that would have taken a raid team 10-15 minutes.) Without the perfect mix of all this it wouldn't justify solo players downing the content. The fights would also need to be designed in a way so that any of this would even be possible. Unavoidable damage, damage that can only be survived by a tank, enrage timers that no solo player could hit, etc. would all negate the solo'ing potential. I don't think it makes sense for only 2-3 specs to be able to do it either. WoW had raid content that players proved was soloable but they almost always were either a tank, a sustain-heavy melee, or a pet / kiting class. That leaves a lot out though I think it's been the trend that some classes will be more suited for soloing and some will be more suited for group play. I don't think that is necessarily ideal but it is the norm. Trade-offs are the nature of MMOs of good class design after all.
Alternatively, if the question revolves around different ways to get the same end game gear then I'm going to defer back to my previous point of effort vs. reward. "Game your own way" design has some perks but finding the balance is tricky. WoW does this poorly in my opinion. Most loot is locked behind one means or another, come methods are farmable while others are once per week locks, some methods top out in gear quality well below others, etc. I challenge anyone that says getting a top tier arena score isn't at least as hard as mythic raid content. I know mythic raids that are hopeless in PvP but exceptional in scripted PvE yet PvP is rewarded in an inferior manner. The highest Mythic+ dungeons are only doable by a handful of players but the reward stopped scaling 21 dungeon levels lower and isn't comparable to mythic raid loot. Then again, it is farmable so there is some balance there.
During the leveling processes this nature divide forms where Skill + effort = strength but near the end game that can fall away if there are artificial barriers. I imagine some players dream of being a wandering samurai of sorts, that lone wolf as you termed, on par with the best through their effort alone but it would be reflective of determination represented at the top .1%, the crazy few who wandered off into the wilds and returned with experiences that would have crushed normal people.
Since you want people to give feedback on what they think about the game i guess il say something even tho ur probably not gonna read it.
First of all let me tell u that ur doing an incredible job and especially Steve, for you to have the balls to invest money on something like this is really amazing ,but here´s my concerns.
1- so im a strictly solo player when it comes to mmorpg i just like doing my own things and not being in a very large group, and being the really strong guy that dosent belong to a (guild...etc) and what im seeing is a lot of benefits of being in guilds and in big social groups and events ( guild stone enchantments , religion ,citizanship quests) when myself and a minority of people prefer doing solo quests and solo farm and what i feel is that if i went with that style of play to your game i would miss out on alot of stuff and in general be a lot weaker in a pvp and pve standpoint than someone who joins these huge social groups.
2- Legendary weaponds , u said that there were going to be unique weaponds in servers , and i love the idea, the one that spends the most hours or is the best at pvp and pve should have those legendary weaponds and gear but here´s the thing , lets say that i get one of those legendary weaponds (i will) if i ,for some reason didnt want to play the game anymore and just quit, the legendary weapond would be gone , or if u want to implement a afk system for those types of scenerios how would that be implemented
3-The bounty system is awesome , it really is, but i think you should improve on that , since the Mayor of the node has complete control meaby if the act that get´s someone to become corrupted were to happend in the territory of that node i think you could have the option as a mayor to assemble a bounty hunter squad that serves the node, that would hunt down people who commit crimes in the mayor´s node soil , thats just an idea.
Keep the good work going , and all the community is hoping for the best . Good luck
I believe there should very little actual content you can do by yourself outside of questing. Dungeons shouldn't be solo-able. Crafting for the most part could/should be solo up until you need an other profession to process or items/gather for you, etc. The whole point of joining an mmorpg is to play with more people. I dislike the SAO idea of " i'll reach the top of pve" by myself mentality.
" What do you mean a book I cannot have?" - Frufire
I think a player should be able to max out every single one of the 64 classes and all 10 of the crafting professions on a single character with no alts required if the player is willing to put in the time and play the game for that long. I also think that despite all of this every player will ultimately need to ally and team up with people or you will never hope to achieve the dungeon, city, castle, caravan merchant conquest that is core to experiencing the world shaping aspects of this game and its world politics that make this game truly special
In October 1944, during World War II, Leo Major made 93 German prisoners all by himself. A few months later, this same character liberated the town of Zwolle (Netherlands) once again on his own.
Ditto with Congress Medal of Honor recipient John Chapman, who single-handedly saved his SEAL team and 18 other soldiers.
I could give tons of examples like these.
But some still believe there are things that a single player should not be able to do. My question is why?
The facts show the contrary. An individual can and should be able, if he has enough courage and determination, to do anything even if it ends tragically. This is the very definition of heroism.
An MMORPG is any story-driven online video game in which a player, taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with many other players. But interacting does not necessarily mean forming groups to beat a boss or anything like that.
Usually the only reason there are dungeons and raids in a video game is loot. It's also the only reason people do these dungeons and raids multiple times.
Unfortunately, those who can form groups get better loot, while those who can't don't get anything. And yet, it often happens that group organizers discriminate by favoring their friends over others.
I would love a game in which the challenge counts more than the loot. A game in which I could say: I have, or we have beaten this or that boss. In my guild hall or living room, I have the head of the monster to prove it.
I applaud the developer’s initiative in their intentions to adjust dungeons and raids to the strength of the group facing them by adjusting loot accordingly. It is a small step in the right direction. On the other hand, I welcome even more the idea that loot can be improved by the work of those who have developed their craftsmanship and not just by beating a boss.
It would be even better if, after hours, days and months of practising his craft, a player could produce something better than what can be found in dungeons and raids.
In the Middle Ages, for example, elite weapons were not found on the battlefield, but were made by master craftsmen who had to prove their skills by creating a masterpiece. It took years of practice and it had to be peer-reviewed.
In dungeons and raids, donate money, gold, jewelry, rare materials or whatever, but let the artisans do their job so that there is good reason to spend hours or even months to develop know-how. If you have to, make the odds low, the materials hard to get, and you'll have real teamwork between players.
In such conditions, who would not want to have a master craftsman in his guild or in his town?
A solo player should be able to play through the base game alone if he wanted to. It could be easier in a group, but the option always exists to enjoy the quests and storyline alone.
However, everyone will eventually have to group up with people for dungeons.
I think most people here are approaching with a modern MMO mentality.They probably missed the chance to play an oldschool MMO back in the day, so for them, having to rely on others doesn't come natural.
I think they are missing the idea of a true MMORPG.
You want to solo? Go grind easy areas, where low level groups farm, for a small profit.
Want to go deeper into the dungeon where the interesting parts are? Group with people, make friends, talk to guildies.
That's the best way to create community, which was the key for keeping the fidelity of the player base back then, instead of an artificial storyline and constant content patches that we have nowdays.
Just give it a chance, guys, you won't regret it.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
And the G in MMORPG is for game; not group.
Solo is not at all the same thing as single-player.
Solo means you adventure without being in a formal party/group with other players.
Solo does not mean never socializing with other players.
Solo does not mean never buffing or healing other players.
Solo does not mean never trading with other players.
Solo does not mean never defending your town against enemy/rival player characters.
In Ashes, a player cannot, alone, progress a node to the Metropolis stage. And certainly cannot, alone, successfully defend a Metropolis from a siege or a monster horde.
I think most people here are approaching with a modern MMO mentality.They probably missed the chance to play an oldschool MMO back in the day, so for them, having to rely on others doesn't come natural.
I think they are missing the idea of a true MMORPG.
You want to solo? Go grind easy areas, where low level groups farm, for a small profit.
Want to go deeper into the dungeon where the interesting parts are? Group with people, make friends, talk to guildies.
That's the best way to create community, which was the key for keeping the fidelity of the player base back then, instead of an artificial storyline and constant content patches that we have nowdays.
Just give it a chance, guys, you won't regret it.
I too come from those times and I am all up for that.
While playing with and meeting new people is great and leaves great memories, one must not forget the "dark times" or group content when you're sitting in town or at a dungeon entrance waiting for a party because the content ahead cannot be done solo (or very slow and inefficient).
Give players an option: play in a group, which is faster and more enjoyable, or play solo at your own pace.
I think most people here are approaching with a modern MMO mentality.They probably missed the chance to play an oldschool MMO back in the day, so for them, having to rely on others doesn't come natural.
I think they are missing the idea of a true MMORPG.
You want to solo? Go grind easy areas, where low level groups farm, for a small profit.
Want to go deeper into the dungeon where the interesting parts are? Group with people, make friends, talk to guildies.
That's the best way to create community, which was the key for keeping the fidelity of the player base back then, instead of an artificial storyline and constant content patches that we have nowdays.
Just give it a chance, guys, you won't regret it.
While playing with and meeting new people is great and leaves great memories, one must not forget the "dark times" or group content when you're sitting in town or at a dungeon entrance waiting for a party because the content ahead cannot be done solo (or very slow and inefficient).
Well, pretty sure making it soloable won't help finding a party.
So hunting suddenly becomes something that by default removes from the social aspect of the MMO, instead of a adding to it.
As per Steven: "Ashes of Creation is not a game for everyone, and that's fine."
AoC will mainly be group focused, and I agree with that standpoint.
My point was simply, during times when you can't find a party or simply cba to get into a party, you should be able to still progress solo, even if its inefficient.
While this is, yes an MMORPG at it's heart, I fully admit to doing a lot of things solo. Partially for the challenge and in part because of time. Instead of spending the first part of my day LFGing and then maybe not doing exactly what I want, as a solo I can immediately set forth to do whatever in the hell it is I want to do. That could be trying to solo some dungeon meant for a group all the way up to just exploring the world just to explore.
So to that end please do not forget that even in an MMO world, people DO like to solo.
While this is, yes an MMORPG at it's heart, I fully admit to doing a lot of things solo. Partially for the challenge and in part because of time. Instead of spending the first part of my day LFGing and then maybe not doing exactly what I want, as a solo I can immediately set forth to do whatever in the hell it is I want to do. That could be trying to solo some dungeon meant for a group all the way up to just exploring the world just to explore.
So to that end please do not forget that even in an MMO world, people DO like to solo.
The way I understood Steven and Jeff, you will be able to do exactly that. However, if you want to experience all there is to offer in Ashes, you will have to group up sooner or later.
Comments
This is like the extreme edge of MMO play.
Socializing should be required for group content, and most of ashes crafting, pve, pvp all already require that in order to progress.
If I want to go exploring ashes world of Vera I shouldnt need anyone with me just to explore the world and look around. Now the risk I take of running into hostile players or a world event is the incentive for grouping up. Not to kill a standard npc enemy with no special drops or materials.
Do you have any experience playing games with non-faction based open world pvp? Applying PVE game content to games with completely different PvP systems isn't going to return the same results you're seeking.
Now if you're in a large guild and can constantly find groups, it's less of a concern however if you're in a smaller guild or no guild and have to seek groups by "LFG" type of shout/chat/grouping systems it opens up a vastly different reality for these players.
While AoC isn't going to be able to make everyone happy by default antagonizing the low hanging fruit of solo, new, casual and un-guilded players seems like a bad step towards growing the game and community within it.
Let's say you're a new to the game, leveled up to 10 and made it out into some more intense areas that now require "groups of 3+" to kill the average monsters this zone also requires your character to go into combat for entering it. Well you've decided to group up with 2 cool looking dudes or dudettes and roll out of town. Get to your quest or zone and start killing the monsters, few hours in you need to log out for the night, you've got X amount of gold/items/mats etc after several hours of grouping with these guys they decide well we appreciate your help killing monsters but we want your things before you log off. Now you've just been killed by the same group you've been with for hours and lost hours worth of items because well the game forced you to group.
In theory the story could play out the same had you been solo killing the same NPCs for hours and those same two players showed up and killed you, however in this scenario you at least had the choice to group or not. In concept the XP and item gain should move quicker in the group for specific reasons like healing, damage and group composition however forcing it simply because the game is an MMO is in my opinion wrong. Massively multi player does not or should not require grouping. Keep in mind this is a RPG which means players should have the option to role player or choose their playstyle within the world.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
Iv been Playing MMORPGs for 20 years now and have expirienced all sites.
Im just tired of the "dungeon / Group finder" MMORPG generation where everyone can do everything.
Where is the content that only the best of the best can do?
So you look at the guys and gals that did it and feel respect, awe and someone to look to, something to archive if you and your Friends work really hard at your skills.
I get you so i Agree that fully forcing someone to group up is a no go but i would still make Groups a lot more efficient in both EXP and loot then solo play.
Ragnarok did it in a rather nice way.
Sure you could solo level.
But do 3 People group and you get 20% Bonus Exp and Loot Modifies
Do 6 People group and you get 40% and 8 people 60%.
(Loot modifier in the sense of. If the loot has a 1% chance to drop then you add a 60% modifier to that so 1% * 1,60 = 1,6% loot chance
Rare loot is still rare but has a slight higher chance to drop yet trash loot with already high drop chance has a much higher chance to drop.)
Just a thought, I think games actually lack any real measure of solo progression, and not for any good justification these days
Sounds like we're saying the same thing then and would agree small groups would also be more ideal than needing to field a full group of 8 for general questing/PVE for level grind.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
I was going to write, but buddy here said the same thing.
The only thing I would add to that is that. In regards to group making mechanics, I personally prefer party matching ( Like L2, Where you had a Lobby where you could sort of " Apply " to enter a list of available players or PM and talk to the party leader etc etc.). The Automatic Queue removes a lot of the Player to Player interaction. At least for " Dungeons ".
Now for Open World PVE... One player should be able to kill most of the " general world " monsters one by one, and if you want to farm, OP, AOE mass kill. then you need assemble a party group.
I like the idea of shouting in town and recruiting people for the bosses or dungeons, But with the ammount of people, spam is a thing, so a lobby/party matching lobby solves that, I think.
Have great day !
Ulf
This is incorrect.
Playing alone in an MMORPG does not eliminate the interaction that exists in terms of sporadic and group participation of certain content, participation in commerce, interaction in global chat, being part of a virtual world inhabited by other players and facing the presence of rivals or competitors on the road.
Playing solo in an MMORPG is a personal choice and should be possible.
Is someone forced to do everything in a group in real life?
And if he wishes to do so, should he be expelled?
I do not think so, it is certainly demonstrated that even individually you can achieve the success that sometimes a large group of individuals cannot achieve.
This premise is based on the individual ability to face a challenge, improve, be efficient, etc.
I think that an MMORPG should allow a solo player to achieve the same goals and objectives as a group of players, perhaps not in the same scenario for design reasons but in an environment that allows measuring their capabilities and showing that they are worthy of get the same acces and rewards.
Nowadays it is common to see that MMORPGs hide the best content and rewards behind the team group mode, leaving solitary players unable to reach these goals.
Does this mean that players who complete group objectives stand out or are they better than those who choose to do it alone?
No, they only do it because the game is designed to limit access by number of players present.
As an example, 5 regular players can access items of great value compared to a single excellent player who does not have this possibility by design.
In addition, this model of limitation by number of players leads to well-known practices such as the ¨carry¨ where a group of players leads an inexperienced and low-performance player by the hand to get objects that are impossible for an excellent solo player to access.
The performance or ability of each player is not awarded, access is awarded for compliance with the number of players present.
It is a system that does not reward the dedication of each player and that is nourished by a simplistic model where it is not allowed to measure individual capabilities.
You can be the best in the game but if you are alone the limit by design leaves you stagnant, on the contrary you can be a terrible player but if you have the company of a good number of friends willing to take you by the hand, success is guaranteed and doors to the best content and rewards will be available.
That's an easy answer. The entire game, minus group content.
I think you could make soloers happier also by giving them a form of grouping.
It would be great to have a "2-man" dungeon open up on players freehold plots. These can be simple dynamic, diablo type dungeons that require an NPC healer that makes himself available outside the dungeon entrance to the player. There still should be a chance of risk and dying if the player isn't paying attention.
The loot doesn't have to be anything substantial but always improve upon what the player currently has. That +1 shield becomes a +2. Nothing impressive but still an upgrade and a sense of accomplishment. Drop in some resources to harvest/gather along the way and the player is contributing to the node growth.
I don't think there is any value in limiting the overall game to just group play. That is just going to make people quit if you can't do the basic gameplay of the game alone. The rewards for playing with others shouldn't really be that high either.
You don't really need to incentivize group play until end game. Where most activities are group play. People are going to naturally want to find a party to play with. So I don't think there will be a lot of soloers. However people will want to play when other's schedules don't necessarily match.
As the game is now you are already rewarded for having big groups in the caravan system. Where solo characters will risk getting their crap stolen. A group will kill anything that comes near it. That alone is as much a group advantage that needs to be in the game.
U.S. East
Personally, I do think there should be plenty of solo(able) content out in the world of Vera. However, I also do not think all content should be meant for a solo player, not even just more difficult to do. Dungeons, raids, epic monsters and world bosses should require multiple players.
This is a MMORPG, working with others will be key. All for one and one for all!
There should also be places that you just generally don't go solo. Not a tough as a dungeon but serious enough to where mobs plus pvp could be very dangerous. Basically higher risk better reward farm spots. If you needed a dial to put the corruption/bounty system to work you could place these spots across the level spectrum.
That being said I feel like some paths should be available for solo players in dungeon areas, but if too many players take the solo path then hordes of mobs spawn and it requires a group to continue.
If you are good enough
Alternatively, if the question revolves around different ways to get the same end game gear then I'm going to defer back to my previous point of effort vs. reward. "Game your own way" design has some perks but finding the balance is tricky. WoW does this poorly in my opinion. Most loot is locked behind one means or another, come methods are farmable while others are once per week locks, some methods top out in gear quality well below others, etc. I challenge anyone that says getting a top tier arena score isn't at least as hard as mythic raid content. I know mythic raids that are hopeless in PvP but exceptional in scripted PvE yet PvP is rewarded in an inferior manner. The highest Mythic+ dungeons are only doable by a handful of players but the reward stopped scaling 21 dungeon levels lower and isn't comparable to mythic raid loot. Then again, it is farmable so there is some balance there.
During the leveling processes this nature divide forms where Skill + effort = strength but near the end game that can fall away if there are artificial barriers. I imagine some players dream of being a wandering samurai of sorts, that lone wolf as you termed, on par with the best through their effort alone but it would be reflective of determination represented at the top .1%, the crazy few who wandered off into the wilds and returned with experiences that would have crushed normal people.
First of all let me tell u that ur doing an incredible job and especially Steve, for you to have the balls to invest money on something like this is really amazing ,but here´s my concerns.
1- so im a strictly solo player when it comes to mmorpg i just like doing my own things and not being in a very large group, and being the really strong guy that dosent belong to a (guild...etc) and what im seeing is a lot of benefits of being in guilds and in big social groups and events ( guild stone enchantments , religion ,citizanship quests) when myself and a minority of people prefer doing solo quests and solo farm and what i feel is that if i went with that style of play to your game i would miss out on alot of stuff and in general be a lot weaker in a pvp and pve standpoint than someone who joins these huge social groups.
2- Legendary weaponds , u said that there were going to be unique weaponds in servers , and i love the idea, the one that spends the most hours or is the best at pvp and pve should have those legendary weaponds and gear but here´s the thing , lets say that i get one of those legendary weaponds (i will) if i ,for some reason didnt want to play the game anymore and just quit, the legendary weapond would be gone , or if u want to implement a afk system for those types of scenerios how would that be implemented
3-The bounty system is awesome , it really is, but i think you should improve on that , since the Mayor of the node has complete control meaby if the act that get´s someone to become corrupted were to happend in the territory of that node i think you could have the option as a mayor to assemble a bounty hunter squad that serves the node, that would hunt down people who commit crimes in the mayor´s node soil , thats just an idea.
Keep the good work going , and all the community is hoping for the best . Good luck
- Frufire
Ditto with Congress Medal of Honor recipient John Chapman, who single-handedly saved his SEAL team and 18 other soldiers.
I could give tons of examples like these.
But some still believe there are things that a single player should not be able to do. My question is why?
The facts show the contrary. An individual can and should be able, if he has enough courage and determination, to do anything even if it ends tragically. This is the very definition of heroism.
An MMORPG is any story-driven online video game in which a player, taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with many other players. But interacting does not necessarily mean forming groups to beat a boss or anything like that.
Usually the only reason there are dungeons and raids in a video game is loot. It's also the only reason people do these dungeons and raids multiple times.
Unfortunately, those who can form groups get better loot, while those who can't don't get anything. And yet, it often happens that group organizers discriminate by favoring their friends over others.
I would love a game in which the challenge counts more than the loot. A game in which I could say: I have, or we have beaten this or that boss. In my guild hall or living room, I have the head of the monster to prove it.
I applaud the developer’s initiative in their intentions to adjust dungeons and raids to the strength of the group facing them by adjusting loot accordingly. It is a small step in the right direction. On the other hand, I welcome even more the idea that loot can be improved by the work of those who have developed their craftsmanship and not just by beating a boss.
It would be even better if, after hours, days and months of practising his craft, a player could produce something better than what can be found in dungeons and raids.
In the Middle Ages, for example, elite weapons were not found on the battlefield, but were made by master craftsmen who had to prove their skills by creating a masterpiece. It took years of practice and it had to be peer-reviewed.
In dungeons and raids, donate money, gold, jewelry, rare materials or whatever, but let the artisans do their job so that there is good reason to spend hours or even months to develop know-how. If you have to, make the odds low, the materials hard to get, and you'll have real teamwork between players.
In such conditions, who would not want to have a master craftsman in his guild or in his town?
What will you do better than other crafters?
Take more time to complete left clicking?
Hit harder a key?
Come on now...
However, everyone will eventually have to group up with people for dungeons.
Eternal Guild
( Web | Discord )
I think they are missing the idea of a true MMORPG.
You want to solo? Go grind easy areas, where low level groups farm, for a small profit.
Want to go deeper into the dungeon where the interesting parts are? Group with people, make friends, talk to guildies.
That's the best way to create community, which was the key for keeping the fidelity of the player base back then, instead of an artificial storyline and constant content patches that we have nowdays.
Just give it a chance, guys, you won't regret it.
Solo is not at all the same thing as single-player.
Solo means you adventure without being in a formal party/group with other players.
Solo does not mean never socializing with other players.
Solo does not mean never buffing or healing other players.
Solo does not mean never trading with other players.
Solo does not mean never defending your town against enemy/rival player characters.
In Ashes, a player cannot, alone, progress a node to the Metropolis stage. And certainly cannot, alone, successfully defend a Metropolis from a siege or a monster horde.
I too come from those times and I am all up for that.
While playing with and meeting new people is great and leaves great memories, one must not forget the "dark times" or group content when you're sitting in town or at a dungeon entrance waiting for a party because the content ahead cannot be done solo (or very slow and inefficient).
Give players an option: play in a group, which is faster and more enjoyable, or play solo at your own pace.
Eternal Guild
( Web | Discord )
Well, pretty sure making it soloable won't help finding a party.
So hunting suddenly becomes something that by default removes from the social aspect of the MMO, instead of a adding to it.
As per Steven: "Ashes of Creation is not a game for everyone, and that's fine."
AoC will mainly be group focused, and I agree with that standpoint.
My point was simply, during times when you can't find a party or simply cba to get into a party, you should be able to still progress solo, even if its inefficient.
Eternal Guild
( Web | Discord )
So to that end please do not forget that even in an MMO world, people DO like to solo.
The way I understood Steven and Jeff, you will be able to do exactly that. However, if you want to experience all there is to offer in Ashes, you will have to group up sooner or later.
Eternal Guild
( Web | Discord )