unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We do have confirmation that exp loss will not delevel you. It has other effects that will be as much of a deterrent to "bad play." People seem to forget that exp debt occurs from any death. Not just corruption. Have a group of idiots in your raid that like to "Leeeeeerrrrooooy Jenkinnnnns," you are going to pay a price.
Experience debt (negative experience).[4]
Skill and stat dampening.[3]
Lower health and mana.[3]
Lower gear proficiency.[3]
Durability loss.[3]
And you have to individually target each person who is a non-combatant for them to be affected by your aoe. Not just that YOU have flagged for PVP combat, you have to specifically tab target that individual and then use an attack on them.
We do have confirmation that exp loss will not delevel you. It has other effects that will be as much of a deterrent to "bad play." People seem to forget that exp debt occurs from any death. Not just corruption. Have a group of idiots in your raid that like to "Leeeeeerrrrooooy Jenkinnnnns," you are going to pay a price.
Experience debt (negative experience).[4]
Skill and stat dampening.[3]
Lower health and mana.[3]
Lower gear proficiency.[3]
Durability loss.[3]
And you have to individually target each person who is a non-combatant for them to be affected by your aoe. Not just that YOU have flagged for PVP combat, you have to specifically tab target that individual and then use an attack on them.
The penalties there seem to me like they are designed as a deterrent to multiple deaths due to bad play - as you say - rather than being a penalty that player is supposed to feel after just one or two deaths.
I can also see that those other effects will potentially be a factor when participating in more in depth content (bottom of a dungeon, long raid etc), but I don't really see them being an issue in terms of the scope of the scenarios in this particular thread (others may).
The durability loss seems to me to potentially be more of an issue for most players than any experience debt would be. We get experience from gathering raw materials. If you are killed while gathering said raw materials, and then head back out again, I wouldn't expect it to take all that long to gain the experience debt you may have incurred (during which time you are also getting back the materials you lost). Once that is worked off, all other penalties will (presumably) be gone as well - except the durability hit which is permanent.
It will be interesting to see if there is a difference in the scale or scope of death penalties handed out depending on how players die - I can see them wanting to punish some deaths more than others.
Of what i recall hearing, you don't actualy lose xp. You gain negative xp. Meaning you won't start to gain xp for your level (to level up), until you have gathered the amount of negative xp you have.
"We don't have deleveling, instead what we have is experience debt. Now the more experience debt you accrue, the greater the detriment to your character; not to the point where you can not get out of the debt. There will always be a way forward to remove your debt" https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_death
0
Options
AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I agree with @noaani here, the armor/weapon durability hit would likely be the biggest motivator for me to fight back. However, if the loss is insignificant I don't see it being a game changer (for me).
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The bulk of any MMO is played at max level (at least it is in the few MMO's that have released this information). If de-leveling isn't a thing, negative xp isn't an issue to anyone at max level, meaning it isn't an issue to the bulk of the population for the bulk of the games life.
That's not to say it won't be a consideration for some people some of the time - it just won't be a big issue over all - and will literally never be an issue for me personally.
Ashes isn't just any MMORPG.
There are several forms of progression besides just Adventurer.
So, we'll have to see how xp debt affects Religious, Social Organization and Racial progression. And lots of PvE folk will probably care about losing xp for Artisan progression.
If someone baits you in to attacking them via words, that isn't circumventing the system - that IS the system.
Re-read the post. "Other examples include griefing you until you just attack them since words aren't exactly effective in most games if the person is looking to bother you".
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Pretty sure it’s been clarified you can’t flag with an AoE, I’ll have to look for the quote later
Just providing general examples of how people circumvent it in other games. People will always figure out a way to circumvent it and exploit that.
It’s not exploiting when you have to actively target them to flag on them. If you believe someone is harassing you, report them and mute them. At that point, whatever they do is within the realm of acceptable gameplay.
They can’t stop you from gathering unless they beat you to the resource, which is fair game mechanics regardless of reason. If they hit you, which is required to actually stop you from engaging in an activity, then you have free reign to wail on them because they’ve now flagged on you as a combatant.
Ashes is not going to be a pure PvP or PvE game, it’s interconnected at the core of it. It’s ridiculous to demand freedom to wail on people without consequence no matter what reason you try to come up with.
The bulk of any MMO is played at max level (at least it is in the few MMO's that have released this information). If de-leveling isn't a thing, negative xp isn't an issue to anyone at max level, meaning it isn't an issue to the bulk of the population for the bulk of the games life.
That's not to say it won't be a consideration for some people some of the time - it just won't be a big issue over all - and will literally never be an issue for me personally.
Ashes isn't just any MMORPG.
There are several forms of progression besides just Adventurer.
So, we'll have to see how xp debt affects Religious, Social Organization and Racial progression. And lots of PvE folk will probably care about losing xp for Artisan progression.
I agree, we'll have to see.
However, if we are making assumptions about it, my assumption would be that character death would have no direct impact on crafter level, and religious and social progression will likely be level (and thus experience) agnostic to a large degree.
Honestly, if character death while adventuring resulted in a crafting experience debt, I'd actually be shocked. Now, a character death while crafting - that should result in crafting experience debt.
If someone baits you in to attacking them via words, that isn't circumventing the system - that IS the system.
Re-read the post. "Other examples include griefing you until you just attack them since words aren't exactly effective in most games if the person is looking to bother you".
Doesn't change a thing.
You have to make the conscious decision to attack any individual player in Ashes. No one can force you to do it, and if you do it, you do it knowing the risks.
Again, that IS the system.
1
Options
AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As of right now the system seems to be that attacking a non-flagged player has to be intentional. Where a non-PvP-flagged player can't choose to be attacked without flagging for it.
If someone goads you into attacking them, and then not fight back, they have achieved a new level of troll. If the player continues to fight back until they kill the other avatar, gaining corruption, they have achieved the maximum level of feeding trolls.
If the verbal harassment becomes serious and personal, please seek out help from IS. Those types of players do not need to be on any of the servers.
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
1
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Honestly, if character death while adventuring resulted in a crafting experience debt, I'd actually be shocked. Now, a character death while crafting - that should result in crafting experience debt.
It's character death while gathering. Which is similar to character death while exploring.
I think what you mean is character death from combat should only affect Adventurer xp and, if there is character death from artisanship, that should affect Artisan xp.
Could be.
But, we will have to see what the dev philosophy actually is on max Adventurer level putting a defacto end to xp debt as a death penalty.
But, we will have to see what the dev philosophy actually is on max Adventurer level putting a defacto end to xp debt as a death penalty.
We could, or we could make the fairly easy assumption that if an experience debt penalty was supposed to be the main penalty and apply to characters at all levels, it would be the only penalty needed. The existence of multiple penalties says to me that no one penalty is meant to be the "main" penalty - rather;
To leveling characters, the damage to gear is not that much of a penalty as they would likely out level the usefulness of the item before it is destroyed.
At max level, an experience debt is not that much of a penalty as that character is in no need of gaining experience.
Put both in to the game, and all players receive a penalty.
Now, you can wait and see if you like, but I'm going to put my superpowers of logic to good use and make the assumption that the above was what Intrepid came up with, without even needing to have a discussion.
0
Options
Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Seriously? i come back to the internet to see another pvp thread? i thought my joke thread would have been the end of things...
I warned everyone but nobody listens to the skeleton
whoever knew that asking a simple question would cause all of this. *shrugs* oh well.
Maybe I should change my name to "harbinger of chaos" :P
1
Options
unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Certain trigger topics rage on forums and Discord due to people either not doing the research and coming into the discussion not truly understanding the systems and mechanics, cherry-picking information to fit the playstyle they envision, or those that think they will "educate" Intrepid and that they will get a change to planned mechanics. Others are just dicks.
2
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This is just a general statement about the game. But certain aspects seems to work on paper and when the developers do it. But when players get involved, it is a different matter. This game seems to put alot of faith into the players doing what the developers want them to do. I don't think this will plan out well. We can see from previous mmo's, that have changed, due to players not doing as the developers wanted. I feel that the dev's way to much faith into, that the players are going to do, what has to be done, to make this game work. This goes to various aspects of the game
0
Options
Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This is just a general statement about the game. But certain aspects seems to work on paper and when the developers do it. But when players get involved, it is a different matter. This game seems to put alot of faith into the players doing what the developers want them to do. I don't think this will plan out well. We can see from previous mmo's, that have changed, due to players not doing as the developers wanted. I feel that the dev's way to much faith into, that the players are going to do, what has to be done, to make this game work. This goes to various aspects of the game
That's a valid concern and yes you are right that the players will probably do things that the devs never intended or anticipated. This is not necessarily a bad thing though, and in fact can pave the way to making the game even better than it would normally be.
When something like this happens there are typically 2 responses the devs can take and it will be interesting to see which way Intrepid jumps. Will they be like Blizzard who do their utmost to crush any deviation from their intended way of playing the game, or be like Riot who embrace the innovations of the players and use them as inspiration for future updates?
Personally I prefer the latter as often players resort to alternative methods and exploits when there is something fundamentally wrong with the intended method. If a large majority of players are choosing to exploit weaknesses in the system, chances are there is a good reason for it.
This is just a general statement about the game. But certain aspects seems to work on paper and when the developers do it. But when players get involved, it is a different matter. This game seems to put alot of faith into the players doing what the developers want them to do. I don't think this will plan out well. We can see from previous mmo's, that have changed, due to players not doing as the developers wanted. I feel that the dev's way to much faith into, that the players are going to do, what has to be done, to make this game work. This goes to various aspects of the game
That's a valid concern and yes you are right that the players will probably do things that the devs never intended or anticipated. This is not necessarily a bad thing though, and in fact can pave the way to making the game even better than it would normally be.
When something like this happens there are typically 2 responses the devs can take and it will be interesting to see which way Intrepid jumps. Will they be like Blizzard who do their utmost to crush any deviation from their intended way of playing the game, or be like Riot who embrace the innovations of the players and use them as inspiration for future updates?
Personally I prefer the latter as often players resort to alternative methods and exploits when there is something fundamentally wrong with the intended method. If a large majority of players are choosing to exploit weaknesses in the system, chances are there is a good reason for it.
I totally agree, though only up to a point.
Anyone that played Archeage in the year or so after it launched will likely remember the whole bridge blocking saga - and anyone that posted on the forums of that game will likely remember the thread on it. That was players playing the game in a way that the developers of the game didn't conceive during development, and also didn't actually believe when the publisher of the game told them about it.
Some things players will come up with really are absolutely fine, even if the developers didn't think of it. But sometimes players will cross a line.
Developers do need to make a call on where they want that line to be.
Did not see any point starting another corruption thread soo......
In the recent live stream devs said something to the effect how gathering proffesstions were designed for people that like to gather and my have another window open. But let me just read a little into that.
There are a certain number of people that like to log in work on professions gather mats farm mats sell matts explore world and do quests. Really enjoying those finer aspects of MMO brings them to a certain level of immersion. Personally I like to those things just spend most of my time pvping or doing dungeouns. But sometimes I am in the mind set to do those things and just chill and do things that are not as intensive as herioc raiding or pvp. Thing is certain number of people are typically in this mindset and enjoy some of things in MMO like fishing, or easter egg hunts or questlines but just to put all in one word I will just say pve.
So if you are immersed in the game question fullfilling a story line and exploring world. PVP only represents a disruption especially if you are limited on time. So some people are really going to dislike being flagged for PVP all the time. I have actually posted a lot on this subject. I am a pvper and sometimes I get attacked by people that I am more skilled than and still run cause no point in killing people with no skill plus time is alloted to questing. Plus my mind is not always in PvP mode.
So while corruption system is a great anit-CHEAPSHOT mechanism people will still be forced to pvp Or die making other player turn red. But what type of concilation is that if you just wantt to enjoy the pve side of the game all the time. You could sill have the curruption system without having every one flagged for pvp all the time.
Im a pvper so problems with wow classic were horde out numbers alliance like 10 to 1 all that means to me is a target rich environment. Basically every I go there will be horde to kill. Problem is pve play time. will be disrupted all the time.
You can save your posts about how there will not be that much ganking cause corruption system. Truth is you need ganking in order for corruptions system to work. Saying that Corruption system deters ganking is invalid cause Intrepid Studios flagged everyone for pvp in the first place. So IS is responsible for every gank, Kind of making a problem and then giving you the really cool solution bounty hunters.
Plus there are certain number of poeple that do not like getting ganked corruption sytem or no corruptions system,
Guessing you are wieghing this against the thought that you want people to feel a sense of danger and on their edge of their seat while playing. Be better if that was choice. Do not see the down side people having the choice to unflagg themselvs from pvp to prevent getting ganked while pveing. Other than the fact there would be a lot less people to gank so curruption system might not very effective cause no people to gank. But if you flag everyone for pvp and give gankers lots of people to gank then curruption system works great.
Saying that Corruption system deters ganking is invalid cause Intrepid Studios flagged everyone for pvp in the first place.
I don't understand this part. If we are talking about the open world and not battlegrounds, I thought everyone is flagged green by default - i.e. a non-combatant - and players decide whether to flag purple for PvP.
0
Options
HartwellMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The corruption system will probably work with how I understand it, but alpha testers should test out the most annoying possibilities and report on them for if something needs to be restructured.
0
Options
HartwellMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Saying that Corruption system deters ganking is invalid cause Intrepid Studios flagged everyone for pvp in the first place.
I don't understand this part. If we are talking about the open world and not battlegrounds, I thought everyone is flagged green by default - i.e. a non-combatant - and players decide whether to flag purple for PvP.
Everybody is PvP enabled, except for if you are running a store or are in a freehold.
Attacking a green non-combatant player makes you a purple combatant. Attacking a purple combatant player makes you a purple combatant. Attacking a red corrupted player doesn't flag you as a purple combatant. You get to stay green if you attack red corrupted players. This makes the corruption effect snowball, corrupted players will be fighting non-combatants. It would be better for a corrupted player to retreat until the corruption effect wears off, otherwise it will keep growing.
0
Options
unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The corruption effect does not "wear off." Currently the only stated ways of removing corruption is through death or quest line. People will not be afking their corruption away in "safe zones." Also, not all corruption is removed with a single death. Stack it high enough and you are going to be in for a rough ride as you will need to die multiple times to clear it, and those first couple deaths have a chance of dropping gear. Last info is that we won't see the corruption system till Alpha 2, so expect most to murderhobo their way along during the Alpha 1.
Comments
Experience debt (negative experience).[4]
Skill and stat dampening.[3]
Lower health and mana.[3]
Lower gear proficiency.[3]
Durability loss.[3]
And you have to individually target each person who is a non-combatant for them to be affected by your aoe. Not just that YOU have flagged for PVP combat, you have to specifically tab target that individual and then use an attack on them.
I can also see that those other effects will potentially be a factor when participating in more in depth content (bottom of a dungeon, long raid etc), but I don't really see them being an issue in terms of the scope of the scenarios in this particular thread (others may).
The durability loss seems to me to potentially be more of an issue for most players than any experience debt would be. We get experience from gathering raw materials. If you are killed while gathering said raw materials, and then head back out again, I wouldn't expect it to take all that long to gain the experience debt you may have incurred (during which time you are also getting back the materials you lost). Once that is worked off, all other penalties will (presumably) be gone as well - except the durability hit which is permanent.
It will be interesting to see if there is a difference in the scale or scope of death penalties handed out depending on how players die - I can see them wanting to punish some deaths more than others.
Oh, how I loved the feign death ability of my hunter in WoW...
I warned everyone but nobody listens to the skeleton
That's not how the internet works.
"We don't have deleveling, instead what we have is experience debt. Now the more experience debt you accrue, the greater the detriment to your character; not to the point where you can not get out of the debt. There will always be a way forward to remove your debt"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_death
There are several forms of progression besides just Adventurer.
So, we'll have to see how xp debt affects Religious, Social Organization and Racial progression. And lots of PvE folk will probably care about losing xp for Artisan progression.
Just providing general examples of how people circumvent it in other games. People will always figure out a way to circumvent it and exploit that.
Re-read the post. "Other examples include griefing you until you just attack them since words aren't exactly effective in most games if the person is looking to bother you".
It’s not exploiting when you have to actively target them to flag on them. If you believe someone is harassing you, report them and mute them. At that point, whatever they do is within the realm of acceptable gameplay.
They can’t stop you from gathering unless they beat you to the resource, which is fair game mechanics regardless of reason. If they hit you, which is required to actually stop you from engaging in an activity, then you have free reign to wail on them because they’ve now flagged on you as a combatant.
Ashes is not going to be a pure PvP or PvE game, it’s interconnected at the core of it. It’s ridiculous to demand freedom to wail on people without consequence no matter what reason you try to come up with.
However, if we are making assumptions about it, my assumption would be that character death would have no direct impact on crafter level, and religious and social progression will likely be level (and thus experience) agnostic to a large degree.
Honestly, if character death while adventuring resulted in a crafting experience debt, I'd actually be shocked. Now, a character death while crafting - that should result in crafting experience debt.
Doesn't change a thing.
You have to make the conscious decision to attack any individual player in Ashes. No one can force you to do it, and if you do it, you do it knowing the risks.
Again, that IS the system.
If someone goads you into attacking them, and then not fight back, they have achieved a new level of troll. If the player continues to fight back until they kill the other avatar, gaining corruption, they have achieved the maximum level of feeding trolls.
If the verbal harassment becomes serious and personal, please seek out help from IS. Those types of players do not need to be on any of the servers.
Is that a challenge
I think what you mean is character death from combat should only affect Adventurer xp and, if there is character death from artisanship, that should affect Artisan xp.
Could be.
But, we will have to see what the dev philosophy actually is on max Adventurer level putting a defacto end to xp debt as a death penalty.
To leveling characters, the damage to gear is not that much of a penalty as they would likely out level the usefulness of the item before it is destroyed.
At max level, an experience debt is not that much of a penalty as that character is in no need of gaining experience.
Put both in to the game, and all players receive a penalty.
Now, you can wait and see if you like, but I'm going to put my superpowers of logic to good use and make the assumption that the above was what Intrepid came up with, without even needing to have a discussion.
whoever knew that asking a simple question would cause all of this. *shrugs* oh well.
Maybe I should change my name to "harbinger of chaos" :P
I wish I could see you in game just to slap you
That's a valid concern and yes you are right that the players will probably do things that the devs never intended or anticipated. This is not necessarily a bad thing though, and in fact can pave the way to making the game even better than it would normally be.
When something like this happens there are typically 2 responses the devs can take and it will be interesting to see which way Intrepid jumps. Will they be like Blizzard who do their utmost to crush any deviation from their intended way of playing the game, or be like Riot who embrace the innovations of the players and use them as inspiration for future updates?
Personally I prefer the latter as often players resort to alternative methods and exploits when there is something fundamentally wrong with the intended method. If a large majority of players are choosing to exploit weaknesses in the system, chances are there is a good reason for it.
Anyone that played Archeage in the year or so after it launched will likely remember the whole bridge blocking saga - and anyone that posted on the forums of that game will likely remember the thread on it. That was players playing the game in a way that the developers of the game didn't conceive during development, and also didn't actually believe when the publisher of the game told them about it.
Some things players will come up with really are absolutely fine, even if the developers didn't think of it. But sometimes players will cross a line.
Developers do need to make a call on where they want that line to be.
In the recent live stream devs said something to the effect how gathering proffesstions were designed for people that like to gather and my have another window open. But let me just read a little into that.
There are a certain number of people that like to log in work on professions gather mats farm mats sell matts explore world and do quests. Really enjoying those finer aspects of MMO brings them to a certain level of immersion. Personally I like to those things just spend most of my time pvping or doing dungeouns. But sometimes I am in the mind set to do those things and just chill and do things that are not as intensive as herioc raiding or pvp. Thing is certain number of people are typically in this mindset and enjoy some of things in MMO like fishing, or easter egg hunts or questlines but just to put all in one word I will just say pve.
So if you are immersed in the game question fullfilling a story line and exploring world. PVP only represents a disruption especially if you are limited on time. So some people are really going to dislike being flagged for PVP all the time. I have actually posted a lot on this subject. I am a pvper and sometimes I get attacked by people that I am more skilled than and still run cause no point in killing people with no skill plus time is alloted to questing. Plus my mind is not always in PvP mode.
So while corruption system is a great anit-CHEAPSHOT mechanism people will still be forced to pvp Or die making other player turn red. But what type of concilation is that if you just wantt to enjoy the pve side of the game all the time. You could sill have the curruption system without having every one flagged for pvp all the time.
Im a pvper so problems with wow classic were horde out numbers alliance like 10 to 1 all that means to me is a target rich environment. Basically every I go there will be horde to kill. Problem is pve play time. will be disrupted all the time.
You can save your posts about how there will not be that much ganking cause corruption system. Truth is you need ganking in order for corruptions system to work. Saying that Corruption system deters ganking is invalid cause Intrepid Studios flagged everyone for pvp in the first place. So IS is responsible for every gank, Kind of making a problem and then giving you the really cool solution bounty hunters.
Plus there are certain number of poeple that do not like getting ganked corruption sytem or no corruptions system,
Guessing you are wieghing this against the thought that you want people to feel a sense of danger and on their edge of their seat while playing. Be better if that was choice. Do not see the down side people having the choice to unflagg themselvs from pvp to prevent getting ganked while pveing. Other than the fact there would be a lot less people to gank so curruption system might not very effective cause no people to gank. But if you flag everyone for pvp and give gankers lots of people to gank then curruption system works great.
I don't understand this part. If we are talking about the open world and not battlegrounds, I thought everyone is flagged green by default - i.e. a non-combatant - and players decide whether to flag purple for PvP.
Everybody is PvP enabled, except for if you are running a store or are in a freehold.
Attacking a green non-combatant player makes you a purple combatant. Attacking a purple combatant player makes you a purple combatant. Attacking a red corrupted player doesn't flag you as a purple combatant. You get to stay green if you attack red corrupted players. This makes the corruption effect snowball, corrupted players will be fighting non-combatants. It would be better for a corrupted player to retreat until the corruption effect wears off, otherwise it will keep growing.