The worst possible feature in this game is the corruption

I can tell now, the corruption feature is completely broken. Let say, and it is a common case, some player kills another who grief and ks the mobs. Now let see how that PK penalty will work. The player who is flagged have the choice to die, or to die multiple times. So in fact the player who griefs wins. I saw exactly the same feature in many games - L2 after GoD, L2 Classic, BDO and etc. In every game the result was death of OW PvP. Many players left cause they feel frustrated they cannot protect from griefers. And above all some players do intentional griefing. I call that feature the gank of the loser. And if this thing exists here, I will simply not play AOC, as I already played BDO - good looking, but terrible game.

If you want to reduce the ganking, this is not the way to do it. There are multiple different mechanisms, that will not be exploited so much.

One simple exploit - I want a boss, or mobs, or anything in the game for OW PvE. What I have to do is to let another player, or players to gank me, so to insult them, or to ks, or to grief. Then I will take what I want, as when they PK me, they lost the case.

One possible way to reduce the ganking is a similar karma system - so the PKer is flagged for 5-10 min, but he accumulates PKs. And he needs to clean them by doing things that brings him exp and ingame money, for free. So 1 - 3 PKs random - 1-3 hour grind. 4-6 PKs - random 2-6 hours grind. Also loss of fighting abilities/items if the character has/dies with 6PKs and more.

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Noaani

So, the issue here actually seems to be that the OP is taking the corruption system and trying to figure out how it would work in games he has experience with, rather than trying to work out how it fits in to the larger picture in Ashes.

In both L2 and BDO, there were so few valid farming locations that these spots were actually of value. They were what most 1v1 (or even small group) PvP was about.

There is no reason at all to assume that will be the case in Ashes - if anything we should assume there will be more valid farming locations than there will be people wanting to farm. The world is big, the population is capped at any given point, and there is more to do in Ashes than just mindlessly farming mobs (unlike other games).

As soon as you make that above assumption, the issues with the corruption system that have been presented simply fall away.

Suddenly, the corruption system becomes a system where you can attack a player you know has an inventory full of raw materials in order to make a profit, or where you can attack a player that you just don't like for what ever reason. In both cases there will be a penalty, but it is one you can judge to be worthwhile beforehand.

There absolutely is a penalty to the corruption system, but the penalties of item loss and stat degradation don't happen after just one kill (possibly after killing one player of a significantly lower level though).

Ashes isn't about small groups of players fighting between themselves. Open PvP exists, but not as the main PvP attraction - or in the case of some other so called PvP games, the only PvP attraction.

flameh0t

Ikcen wrote: »

voidshadow wrote: »

Idk if i'm understanding the OP point of view but wouldn't this be fixed if exp gained is equal to all parties? As for items gained, make it split between players or parties. In that case the 'gank and steal farming spot' becomes the 'thanks for helping me farm' situation. In terms of boss fights be it overworld or dungeon bosses, correct me if i''m wrong but that is a part of the meaningful pvp so killing other players to steal boss loot for your own party is perfectly acceptable imo..

Someone more knowledgeable can correct me but that is how i understand it

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP

It is simply terrible. And believe me, it will be better if the OW PvP is forbidden. At least nobody will troll you to exploit the system.

It's okay to be a pussy, I will just take all your stuff.

Ikcen wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

Ikcen wrote: »

You do not "own" the mobs, but you should be able to protect your spot. How will you feel if I come and say piss off noob, this is mine? And with the current corruption system if my class is slightly better in PvE, I can do it, and you have to leave. Is this a good game?

Why do you have to leave? You can stay and get some mobs rather than leave and get none.

This is a game, not an obligation. Most players will not play if they cannot play it effectively.

flameh0t wrote: »

Ikcen wrote: »

voidshadow wrote: »

Idk if i'm understanding the OP point of view but wouldn't this be fixed if exp gained is equal to all parties? As for items gained, make it split between players or parties. In that case the 'gank and steal farming spot' becomes the 'thanks for helping me farm' situation. In terms of boss fights be it overworld or dungeon bosses, correct me if i''m wrong but that is a part of the meaningful pvp so killing other players to steal boss loot for your own party is perfectly acceptable imo..

Someone more knowledgeable can correct me but that is how i understand it

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP

It is simply terrible. And believe me, it will be better if the OW PvP is forbidden. At least nobody will troll you to exploit the system.

It's okay to be a pussy, I will just take all your stuff.

It seems you do not understand how it works. If I play like a pussy, I will take your stuff.

It seems like you do not understand how it works, if you play like a pussy you lose 100% of your stuff.. If you fight back you only lose 50% of your stuff.

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Ravudha

Ikcen wrote: »

Well, you make a very big assumption. L2 is a pretty big game. BDO with all the virtual servers that copies the world is even bigger. I really doubt AOC will be bigger. And the reason is simple - such a big map is expensive to handle. Even if it is bigger, if we assume it is successful, there will be millions of players. So your whole assumptions is false if we are dealing with the facts. If AOC fails, who cares, but indeed there will be a lot of space probably in such a case.

You also need to factor in the mobs that people will want to farm. In BDO this is a pretty limited selection. In AoC the design philosophy is to make mob/gatherable drops relevant throughout the economy, so a much wider variety of mobs becomes relevant; possibly every mob becomes relevant to farming.

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Noaani

Ikcen wrote: »

there will be millions of players.

Each server will be capped at 10,000 concurrent players.

Doesn't matter how popular the game is, this cap will remain.

Both BDO and L2 have smaller maps than Intrepid have stated Ashes will have. Significantly smaller, in fact.

BDO is around 60 square miles (the developers haven't actually released the size, as it does not compare favorably to many other MMO's out there). This is in comparison to vanilla WoW at 80 square miles. I can't find an estimate for Lineage 2, but every comment I have found has said it seems smaller than WoW, perhaps on par with BDO.

Verra will be 480 square miles, for comparison.

Additionally, there is a difference in philosophy between how the games are developed.

Both Pearl Abyss and NCSoft look at PvE content in those two games as secondary. BDO specifically doesn't even have PvE content at the level cap. The mobs players fight over were actually put in place to be the last little bit of leveling content - but since they are the highest level solo mobs in the game, they are the only thing for level capped players to farm for profit.

Ashes is designing the game with an actual PvE end game (even if they are not calling it end game).

This means there is actual intent to provide real content for players at the level cap on a continual basis, so there is no need to fight over scraps left over from the leveling process (this is what caused me to leave BDO).

The notion that there will be one area of mobs to fight that are worth it in Ashes is completely false, and can only be held by someone that has assumed the game will be BDO with a few subtle changes, rather than by someone that has looked at the game as a whole, and the stated intent the developers have behind some of their decisions.

So lets not assume there will be competition for every farming spot. In fact, with the way Intrepid are doing dynamic content, we should not even assume there will be farming spots.

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Noaani

Ikcen wrote: »

Now where you got that information? The 10 000 CAP is pretty old technology. Take Albion as example - they have 1 server for 110 000 daily players - this is about 500 000 per month.

Here, or here or you could look for a number of comments on Discord if you prefer.

Just because it is possible to have more players on a server, doesn't mean that is what every game should do. Ashes is as much about the community you are playing with, and the larger that community is, the less significant an individual player is.

By limiting the number of players on a server, Intrepid are also increasing the importance of each individual player, and also ensuring that the relationships you form with people on your server will actually mean something.

This also expands to PvP. In Ashes, if you piss off enough people on your server, you can't just go to a different server. With only 10,000 players concurrently, you don't even need to piss off that many people before you start finding it hard to get group invites or find people to trade with. This is actually more of a deterrent to PvP than the corruption system is, because this has the potential of actual permanent loss - whereas if you lose an item due to corruption you can simply buy another item to replace it.

The rest is also nonsense. When I played BDO the way to level your character was by grind of mobs. I doubt the things changed so much.

If you note, you'll see that I said that when you get to the level cap. Yes, there are mobs to grind on all the way to that level cap, but once you get there, these mobs cease to continue. The only mobs that are worth killing at the level cap are the mobs that were put in the game by the developers as the last mobs to kill in that grind to the level cap. They were not intended to be killed by players at that level cap, which is why there are so few of them.

As for Lineage 2 - this is maybe the most grindy game ever created.

Just because the developers put a PvE grind in to their game, that doesn't mean they expect PvE in that game to be meaningful at the level cap - and certainly doesn't mean that they expect that content to be the primary content of a player at the level cap.

I think you need to read the wiki again (all of it) with the understanding that this game is not BDO, Lineage 2 or Albion.

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Noaani

Ikcen wrote: »

Noob, there is something called end game content.

noaani wrote: »

Both Pearl Abyss and NCSoft look at PvE content in those two games as secondary. BDO specifically doesn't even have PvE content at the level cap. The mobs players fight over were actually put in place to be the last little bit of leveling content - but since they are the highest level solo mobs in the game, they are the only thing for level capped players to farm for profit.

Ashes is designing the game with an actual PvE end game (even if they are not calling it end game).

Do you even read bro?

Ikcen wrote: »

And your idea that 10 000 players are few in a game with levels is so absurd. In many games that is overcrowded server, as there are levels.

You're the one that said that isn't very high, not me.

Ikcen wrote: »

Now where you got that information? The 10 000 CAP is pretty old technology. Take Albion as example - they have 1 server for 110 000 daily players - this is about 500 000 per month.

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Noaani

Ikcen wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Ikcen wrote: »

Noob, there is something called end game content.

noaani wrote: »

Both Pearl Abyss and NCSoft look at PvE content in those two games as secondary. BDO specifically doesn't even have PvE content at the level cap. The mobs players fight over were actually put in place to be the last little bit of leveling content - but since they are the highest level solo mobs in the game, they are the only thing for level capped players to farm for profit.

Ashes is designing the game with an actual PvE end game (even if they are not calling it end game).

Do you even read bro?

Ikcen wrote: »

And your idea that 10 000 players are few in a game with levels is so absurd. In many games that is overcrowded server, as there are levels.

You're the one that said that isn't very high, not me.

Ikcen wrote: »

Now where you got that information? The 10 000 CAP is pretty old technology. Take Albion as example - they have 1 server for 110 000 daily players - this is about 500 000 per month.

So you think bosses are not PvE content? Also it depends on the game. 10 000 players are a lot for a game with levels. For a game without levels, like Albion this is an empty world. The reason I call you noob, is not to insult you, but because you are a noob.

Let see how do you imagine a high level player with millions in stash will grind mobs like he did when he was a low level player?

There is another problem with the levels, and that is why the massive PvE content of BDO - it is really one of the best PvE contents ever created for a video game, looks so shallow as experience for the players.

The new players in a game with levels are in constant disadvantage. As if we assume both old and new spend the same time for grind, the old one will get much more experience and virtual money. And he already has much more.

So every game with levels is forced in one moment to rush the leveling curve for the new players. And that makes the content, which could be rich and sophisticated to look fast and shallow.

BDO has a massive dearth of PvE content at the level cap. Sure, it has a smattering of bosses (not what I would call a boss in any other game), but it is not enough to give players actual content that they know they are able to participate in every time they log in.

If there isn't enough PvE content for players to be 90% sure there will be PvE content for them to participate in every time they log in, then players will log in assuming that there is no PvE content for them to participate in.

In the case of BDO, players logged in to kill content that was supposed to be there for leveling purposes because there was nothing better for them to kill.

BDO PvE content (which is to say, leveling content) is not sophisticated - it is actually kind of simple. If BDO, Lineage and Albion are your only other comparisons though, I can see why you could think that BDO leveling content is sophisticated. The two EQ games, LotRO, Conan, DDO, SWTOR, Archeage, WAR, FFXI, FFXIV, Aion, Rift, TERA, DCUO, DAOC, Wiz101, SWG, STO, NWO and Runescape are - off the top of my head - some MMO's that have more "sophisticated" PvE leveling content than those three games you are talking about.

Even WoW's content is more sophisticated than BDO's.

Leveling content in BDO exists simply to encourage people to pay Pearl Abyss more money. If you don't see that, you should probably question everything you think you know about MMO's.

I am completely unsure how any of what you posted relates to server populations and your insistence that 10,000 is somehow both too small and too large.

flameh0t

Ikcen wrote: »

flameh0t wrote: »

It seems like you do not understand how it works, if you play like a pussy you lose 100% of your stuff.. If you fight back you only lose 50% of your stuff.

So let see, you claim the corruption does not work and the gankers can gank on free will, as if the victims do not retaliate they lose everything, but if they fight back they lose 50% of their gear? That sounds as a harsh version of Albion. And it seems you are in the wrong forum, as obviously you are not talking about AOC

Sure the corruption works, I'd be corrupted for doing so and most likely get hunted down by bounty hunters later.. You ONLY lose the 50% if you fight back, if you don't, you lose 100%.. I'd rather defend myself and keep half my earnings. The idea is to promote PvP. They want PvP go be included in the game. If you're too scared to deal with that, then it's clearly you who is in the wrong forum. 🤷🏼‍♂️

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Noaani

Ikcen wrote: »

You will not. Let say you are evil ganker, who do it for fun. Nothing wrong, RP like any other. With every PK your stats will fall, so after 20 your character will be basically useless.

That's the point...

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Noaani

Ikcen wrote: »

They seem to you easy, because they are made easy as timings, AOE, basic stats.

If mobs seems easy because they are made easy, then they are easy.

You can have what ever AI behind a mob that you like, but if the tuning the the mob makes them so easy that the AI isn't even noticed, then for all intents and purposes, that AI isn't there.

That said, the "AI" behind the mobs in BDO wasn't AI, it was just a simple script.

Further, it was almost impossible to get below about 75% health from equal level PvE content in BDO. If you avoid PvP in BDO, you won't die.

Also good list, but I will give you an advice, next time start with Ultima

Why would I include Ultima?

If the ecosystem that Ultima Online had designed actually worked as the developers intended, then it could fit on that list. But as it was designed, it fits in to the same group as BDO in that sure, it may have a sophisticated system, but the game is designed in a way where that system isn't even noticed by players. Players wouldn't even know it would have been there if the developers didn't talk about it.

Often the PvE and PvP happened simultaneously. I remember once around 3000 players fought for Antharas, and at the end the boss killed the winners. It was pretty epic.

This is the point of most open world bosses in games with open PvP. They are not PvE content so much as things to PvP over.

I also assume you put one too many zeros in that number, as 3,000 players was the server cap on Lineage 2 back when Antharas was new content. You didn't have everyone on the server at the time taking on the one encounter.

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