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The worst possible feature in this game is the corruption
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The game is trying to do it all. If you’re out fighting monsters or gathering resources or exploring you aren’t safe from other players. You can be attacked and inevitably you will be. You then have two choices; fight back or don’t fight back. If you fight back and lose, you will drop some resources (not gear; normal PvP results in no loss of equipment, remember that). But you will only drop half of what you dropped if you didn’t fight back. If you win, bonus, you get to take some resources from the person who attacked you. Most people will probably try to fight back even if they are overmatched because there are incentives to do so.
If you don’t fight back, you can try to run away and survive, and you lose nothing (except possibly time since you are put off-track from whatever you were doing). Or if you can’t get away, or don’t try to, you die. Again you drop resources, twice as many as you would if you didn’t fight back. But you also have the satisfaction of knowing the person who attacked you suffered corruption, if that kind of thing matters to you.
The game is trying to enable non-consensual PvP while discouraging it. It won’t be a carebear world but it won’t be a griefer paradise either. It’s walking a tightrope between the two things. I hope it succeeds but again, we won’t know how well until we’re really playing the final game.
Yes, we all know that the corruption system is based of L2's system. It was Steven's favorite MMO. This is common knowledge.
No, it really is as easy as it looks. Please explain to me who it's not easy to adjust values and penalties? It's not hard to alter the intensity of an effect or remove it altogether. Even if you had to develop a completely new mechanic, we are talking about something that goes off other in-game mechanics (i.e. death, pk, looting) and is just a transformation of those systems in certain instances.
Seems to me that he made a good choice.
The idea of the system is to discourage players killing each other for no reason - and your issue with it seems to be that it would stop you killing players for no reason.
It's quite obvious that Ashes is not the game you want it to be.
That is explicitly what Intrepid does not want. Of course the penalties for being a murder hobo will be steep, because they don’t want that kind of behavior to be prevalent in Ashes.
They want PvP to center around meaningful content. They want people to fight over dungeons, they want people to fight for influence, they want people to fight for resources.
What they don’t want is MurderStabMan going around ganking players because it amuses him.
Your initial premise is based off entitlement and a misunderstanding of how resources will work in Ashes (you can exhaust an area of its resources, including the animal populations). You and the person “invading” or “trolling” or whatever you call it, both have the same risks and rewards to fighting.
One kill will not destroy your character’s stats. Repeatedly killing players who don’t fight back is what corruption is for. It will punish repeat offenders.
If you’re scared of it because you might kill a player contesting a spot you want every once in a while, either you don’t have any idea of how it works, or you actually intend to PK “for fun” instead of for a purpose.
Yeah I agree. It's hard to talk to a person when they call everyone who doesn't agree with them a noob.
I totally agree. Now I am just making some popcorn before I log in. Choo Choo!!
So let's start from the beginning and just get some general knowledge out of the way, as I noticed on another forum thread that it seems we are not all up to date on the Ashes of Creations information. This information may change upon release, but this is what we know for now:
Every player starts the game as a "Non-Combatant". This means they have not flagged themselves for PvP and have not attacked another player.
The next step is "Combatant", what this means is that either a player has turned their PvP flag "on" and is ready to fight, OR they are attacking a person who is also a combatant.
Finally, the issue at hand, the "Corrupted" players. A "Corrupted" player has turned their PvP flag on, attacked a "Non-Combatant" (remember, this means that the player has not attacked a player at all) AND killed the "Non-Combatant"
So, as I posted before this is a visual guide for the words above:
Now, let's discuss the penalties and rewards for PvP related activites.
Benefits of being a Non-Combatant: Turn a Combatant into a Corrupted if they kill you, general status you will maintain during game, shows general friendliness, cannot be accidentally hit by player AoE's if both are non-combatants, can attack corrupt players without gaining combatant status
Negatives of being a Non-Combatant: If you die your Skills and stats are lowered, health and mana lowered, gear proficiency lowered, loss of durability, dropping X% (where X will be determined later) of raw materials from your person and your mount.
Benefits of being a Combatant: Can fight against someone who is bothering them, can protect a friend if they are being attacked, can be a fun time to test your skills and might against other players, if you die the negatives are only half (1/2) compared to death as a non-combatant
Negatives of being a Combatant: Risk others attacking you, shows that you are aggressive towards players, if you die you could still lose materials and such
Benefits of being Corrupted: Could make a fun game of chase, adds a little excitement and stealth to avoid bounty hunters, and could make for a few fun RP sessions
Negatives of being Corrupted: Three to Four times the penalties of a non-combatant if you die (3X or 4X), could lose gear or weapons on death, become an easy PvP target for all players, gain a poor reputation within the game
Now let's discuss a little bit about corruption. Let's say that your corruption is a "meter" just as an example. Your "meter" will fill up or lower depending on how you play the game. A high level player killing a low level player will give a lot of corruption while killing a player that is about the same level will give a low amount of corruption. Also, the more people you kill the higher your corruption will be.
So we know of two ways (at the moment) to remove corruption. One is dying and the other is through religious quests. I don't think dying needs any explanation, but let's look closer at those religious quests. Why would a corrupted player go through the hassle of doing a quest when they could just die or suicide instead? The development team clearly thinks that a corrupted player is going to A. be able to maintain their corruption status and complete a quest in time before people kill them, and B. the rewards for doing a quest must outweigh the negatives of dying by quite a lot (otherwise why would anyone do them?)
Now I know that isn't everything, but it's a nice base for us to use for this conversation.
So let's start from the beginning of this thread.
The first post on this thread talks about griefing and kill stealing.
So I've expressed my opinion about griefing and kill stealing twice, but as you claim I "beat around the bush" because I asked you to re-read my post because you ignored everything I said and picked random sentences to talk about. Then when I asked you to re-read what I had written twice you asked me to post it again, which honestly is a little rude towards me. It was pretty much telling me that my time is less important than your own.
However, I will repeat it. For a third time.
Trolling/Chat: I know the common example that you use is someone insults you (example: calling your mother names or calling you names, etc.) However, most people on the internet have dealt with trolls like this in the past. People realize that they can't take what people on the internet say seriously. Atama said it beautifully. If a person is being toxic and breaking the terms of service (which you agree to upon purchasing and playing the game) then it's simply a case of documenting the issue, reporting the player, and allowing the development team to handle it as they see fit. If you do not like or agree to these terms then do not purchase or play the game as you will not be able to comply with the terms of service required to enter. Many of the examples given have been from your personal experience dealing with trolls. However, this does not make it fact, nor do my own personal examples. Data and statistics are what determine that, which if there have been studies with empirical data please feel free to link it to me. I love research and research articles with data.
Kill Stealing: I do not know if this is accurate as I haven't checked myself, but mcstackerson has said that kill stealing will not be possible as the person to hit the mob first will be the one to "claim" the mob. This would make kill "stealing" a lot more difficult as you'd have to gather a large group of mobs first, and survive, if you want any benefit out of it. However, if this is not the case I've have expressed this multiple times (as have other posters) but the concept of "kill stealing" is somewhat small minded. Nobody has the right to a spot. Nobody has the right to certain monsters. Nobody has the right to experience. It doesn't matter if you've been in the same spot for 5 minutes or 5 hours, if someone else shows up and is "faster" than you at PvE that is a class/equipment/level difference that you've both made. If you know your class is better at PvP maybe attacking them is the best option. Maybe you'd rather move to a different location. Or perhaps you could party with each other and kill even faster. Maybe you could bring a party back to that spot and kill the mobs there faster than the solo player. There are plenty of options.
A side note on kill stealing. The concept of kill stealing only works if you are set on grinding experience in one particular spot. This, however, is not how Ashes of Creation is meant to be played so it will most likely not be the most effective strategy. I understand other games have high level players fighting in similar zones, but with the world -literally- changing to fit the players as they grow and change there will be so many different locations to find monsters (and they most likely won't even be the same spots on different servers as each server grows differently!)
Continual player killing: The next thing you brought up is that if I kill someone (and they do not fight back) I will become corrupted. However, another player enters into the same zone as me and I kill them (and they do not fight back and let me kill them) then the player who is corrupted is the only person losing. This is fundamentally incorrect as explained in the brief synopsis I gave at the beginning of this post (all information available on the wiki which has been linked multiple times on this thread). The only way to gain corruption is to kill someone who doesn't fight back, but the Non-Combatant's I kill will lose exp, resources, and stats of their own at a rate of X. However, if a person hits me even once and becomes a combatant they'll reduce their penalty by HALF. I also will not gain any more corruption as you do not gain corruption from killing a combatant. If a person's goal is to cause corruption it will QUICKLY be noticed as the game is designed around people defending themselves.
Corruption Length: You give examples of flagging and being killed over and over in other games. Please remember, Ashes of Creation is not those games. This is a different game with it's own system. If a person has so much corruption that they respawn and are still corrupted then they have earned their punishment. This would mean they've either killed a LOT of people who did NOT fight back or they killed a lot of lower level players (which isn't fun for anyone either). The system is to prevent the bullying you're worried about. Think of Corruption as a punishment. You do something bad, you have to sit in "time out" until you've thought about what you've done. The game isn't designed to go around slaughtering people whenever you're a little grumpy. If you're fighting someone around your level, as you probably would be if you're fighting the same mobs, you will not gain a ton of corruption and it will be easily cleansed as you have not done a super bad thing. If you don't want to be punished for killing peaceful players or weaker/newer players this probably isn't the game (or community) for you.
Overcrowding: noaani did an excellent job describing why this won't be a problem in this game. To summarize, server population limits with the massive size of the map (math was provided in post) there shouldn't be an issue with a large amount of people in a small area. Remember people of different levels, races, guilds, and nodes will be split among the map.
Forum Searching: The search function on the forums are a useful tool so that people can look up topics that have already been discussed, find out the general tone of the community on those topics, and see if their question has already been answered. As I mentioned before, it's almost rude to ask people to constantly repeat themselves for your sake, so suggesting that you use the forum search tool to find information is not asking you to argue with the past. It's asking for you to educate yourself on past conversations.
And finally, in regards to your latest post directed at me. I did say a lot of things, you just didn't read them. When I asked you to re-read what I wrote you asked me to just type it again. Why would I want to waste my time re-typing something because you don't want to take the time to look? Why would I share my experiences again when I thoughtfully typed it out the first time? Why would I give any more examples when the first examples I gave were ignored?
I'm not "pretending you're wrong". You do not have correct information on some of the core systems of the game, that is true as noticed on the forum about class abilities. However, you're opinion that you do not like the corruption system is not wrong. You don't have to like it.
Please don't ask me to talk about the topic when you're constantly going off topic in order to belittle or berate people that do not agree with you. I understand it can be frustrating when people don't agree, but you can do so in a respectful manner. I made a comment before that this thread was getting a little toxic after you called someone a noob when in reality English isn't their first language and they were trying to understand something.
So I'm going to make an assumption, and I apologize if this is wrong, but I'm guessing English isn't your first language either? That's totally fine and super cool if you can speak multiple languages, but please remember that context can change depending on how it is written. I've read over the forum again to compile all of this for you and I didn't see noaani "troll" you, let alone intentionally. Noaani has been patient and informative (and no I don't know this person). So if you thought noaani was trolling you it seems clear that the rest of us probably seem like horrible people. For the most part, aside from the guy saying he'll kill everyone, people have been generally respectful and trying to help you understand the basic concepts of the corruption system as your information is not correct. The main person who's been acting like a toddler has been you, but I just assumed it was because there was some mistranslation or misunderstanding. Again, I'm sorry if I'm wrong about the language barrier, but it seems like that is the biggest problem at this moment as many many people have been trying to express themselves, but you're responses don't match what they're saying.
I'll end this in a similar way to Noaani. Please remember this is Ashes of Creation. This is not Black Desert Online. This is not Lineage 2. This is not Albion. This is Ashes of Creation. It is it's own game with it's own systems. Please think of them as separate games. I also recommended reading over the wiki. Actually read it. Read it twice. Read it three times until you understand what it is that it says. Otherwise I don't think this conversation can go anywhere if all of the basic information isn't out there.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and no. I will not be repeating myself. However, if you do have questions or don't understand something that I wrote please feel free to ask anything in a POLITE and RESPECTFUL manner. Have a nice day
At the end of the day AOC will have a corruption system no matter how much people may or may not want it. Steven the gent putting up the lion's share of the $$$$ has said thats what he wants so that is what we are going to get. All we the plebs will do is test and refine it to sort out the loopholes.
These forum crusades by one or 2 people will not change that.
You argue in certainties, and that doesn't work.
i.e. This WILL happen. It IS this what happens. MY way is the ONLY way.
In regards to the argument that anyone WILL or HAS TO kill someone because of the insults. In most games there is an ignore or block feature (I already have a few people in the forum on ignore). If you're a little shit or tend to insult people, either implicitly or explicitly, I personally make use of this feature so I don't waste time reading your opinions. So whatever argument you throw into gen chat, wont be seen.
Also, speaking only for myself here, most people's opinions or thoughts mean very little to me. I respect and value people (and their opinions) based only on the quality of their character and the actions they choose. I place no value in someone as a person who runs around acting like a little shit, so what they say to hold zero weight. I assume I am not the only one like this.
@Jamation One really huge benefit that wasn’t mentioned here is that having a corrupted status currently is that you will always cause a full death penalty against anyone you fight 1v1.
A non-combatant can’t flag as a combatant against a corrupted player, in the current (if untested) iteration of the corruption mechanic.
To be honest I would expect that to change in the future, but for now it’s a rather big appeal to maintaining a bit of corruption if you intend to make ganking a big part of your gameplay.
That is actually a really good point that I hadn't considered.
I hope it stays in place as well, as the game really does need to offer players some sort of reason to stay corrupted.
Steven has clearly stated many times that he doesn't want meaningless PvP, and you are complaining that the game doesn't allow for meaningless PvP.
Fighting over a farming spot is meaningless PvP. Ashes doesn't want you to do that.
If that is what you want to do, then it is obvious that Ashes is not the game for you.
Not trolling, just observation. There are things that I could see being potential reasons why this game may fail - this is not one of them.
It may fail in your eyes - which is to say that it may not be a game you end up playing because you can't attack players as freely as you would like.
However, since PK'ers see players leave a game, it stands to reason that if a game has a system that discourages PK players, then it stands to have a bigger population, not a smaller one.
Just because you may not be in that population, doesn't mean the game is a failure.
As has been said by myself and others, this game simply doesn't seem to be what you want it to be. It may not be the game for you.
You have not pointed out any flaws, you have pointed out your opinions on a few things.
What you have pointed out as flaws are only flaws if the intention from Intrepid for this game was in line with what you are hoping to get out of this game.
Since Intrepid have stated that their goal is to not allow murder hobos to thrive in Ashes, and you seem to want to thrive as a murder hobo, the opinions you are pointing out as flaws can not be considered as such in a factual, true manner.
All they are, all things considered, is differences between what Intrepid want the game to be and what you want the game to be.
You are not pointing out flaws, you are pointing out differences of opinion.
Meaningful PvP is fighting over some reward.
In some games, that gets reduced to fighting over resources or mob spawns.
That isn't the case in Ashes. Those resources that you could fight over are not meaningful when you compare them to a caravan full of harvested resources that you can take in one action.
That mob spawn is meaningless in comparison to fighting to keep your home against a group of people trying to expand theirs.
Basically, games that have mob spawns or resource patches as things to fight over are small games with small people fighting for small rewards - and somehow they think it is meaningful.
Ashes will have people fighting over actual meaningful things. One action could tip the scale of wealth on a server for months. One node siege could affect thousands of players for the rest of the time they play the game. This is big.
Yet killing a player because you want the mob spawn they are at only affects two players, and only for an hour or so. This is small.
The bonus is, when you are fighting for your node, or for your caravan, the corruption system doesn't even apply. Essentially, if the corruption system is a factor in PvP, that PvP is meaningless in the context of Ashes - even if that same action would be meaningful in another game.
It thought people afraid of being killed is ridiculous. I never though I'd see the opposite.
If you come and annoy me Ill drop you in a second if you dont fight back and Ill deal with all the severe risks involved. My reward? The satisfaction. The true open world satisfaction that you can interact with other players.
If you start saying things about mothers and such Ill pk you again and screenshot the chat and get you perma banned.
But please, keep filling pages.
It isn't the fight over the mob spawn point that causes larger scale PvP to happen, it is the fact that players need an excuse to fight. The fight over spawn points was (in BDO) the only thing that really happened, and so the only catalyst for that larger PvP.
Just because it was what started things off in that game, that doesn't mean that it has to be what starts things off in other games.
In Ashes, I don't need you to try and steal my mobs for me to want to initiate large scale PvP on you. I'll do that because your node is in direct competition with mine - and that PvP on a node level will be far greater than any open PvP in BDO, and far more meaningful than any PvP in L2.
If you happen to get yourself to a stage where you are in a node with fast travel, you have a nice apartment, a freehold that is being quite productive for you, and then I come along and win a siege against your node - you stand to lose it all.
Suddenly you don't have access to that fast travel any more. Your freehold is destroyed, your apartment is at least downgraded, possibly just gone completely. Chances are, you now need to pack up what is left and find yourself a new home - as do thousands of other players.
That feeling you have when someone takes your farming spot? Losing a siege is like an amplified version of that - but for thousands of players. This loss in itself will be enough to generate enmity that could last years and in turn spark off hundreds of other PvP based actions.
I can't see how you could claim that one player attacking one other player to gain control of a mob spawn point could be more important than that. This is a meaningless thing in any game - unless that game doesn't give any more meaning to players than a generic mob grind.
This is where Ashes has the choices and consequences that you keep saying the game doesn't have.
It has them, they are just in a different place to where they are in the few games you have played - because this is a different game.
Death is the main way of getting rid of corruption, but not the only way. Also, players can function just fine with only one kill worth of corruption on them, and they stand to lose very little (comparatively) if they are killed with this level of corruption.
And the possible quest line in religious nodes.
And the possible quest line in religious nodes.
Amazing, you can tell something is broken before it's even tested.
Can you give me the lottery numbers too?
Sadly(?) OW PvP cannot die in this game tho as it is everywhere, so that is one thing you got wrong to begin with.
And ofcourse gankers will exist. So learn to protect yourself.
This is a PvP centered game, if PvP ain't for you, this game ain't for you so move on *shrug*
I'm not even a PvP player, but I am looking forward to this game still oO
This is the 2nd point you have gotten wrong.
They don't want to reduce ganking, they just want ganking to come at a cost.
A cost that makes you unable to gank continuously and will have to weight if you want to or not, as the more Corrupt you become, the worse your PvP stats (damage, defence) becomes, making you weaker and weaker. And the higher the level difference of the person you are "ganking" the more corruption you get, so the weaker you become.
So no, "reduction of ganking" isn't the main goal here.
They want ganking to happen, they want conflict.
If that is not for you, maybe look for a different game?
That's not an exploit?
Unless you meant something entirely different than I understood, quite hard to understand exactly what you meant by this section as the English is all over the place and not really coherent. oÔ
Dude, that is basically waht the corruption system is?
You get flagged as Corrupted as you gain Corruption
And to cleanse it away you either need to
1. Die, maybe die alot depending on the amount of Corruption
(Which stacks teh death penalties, which are 3-4 times higher for Corrupt people, leading to way higher XP debt and lowered stats)
2. Do a long/hard quest to cleanse yourself of Corruption.
Let me go into detail here
You are literally saying the system is "bad", but what you mention as "better" is a worse system o_Ô
Corruption system will have you flagged for waaaaaay longer way waaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer.
(Corruption System 1 - Karma System 0)
You want to reward gankers with XP and in game currency? o_Ô
(Corruption System 2 - Karma System 0)
Loss of fighting ability scales with amount of Corruption so even after 1st kill your Fighting Capability is decreased. And if killed you do have a chance to drop gear on death (either wearing or in inventory)
(Corruption System 3 - Karma System 0)
So... None of the points you've made are any good