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DPS Meter Megathread

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Comments

  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    good analogy. ive done everyboss in wow when i played with 0 addons. never used trackers in any games. just learned everything doing it and reacting.
    Unless you are talking about the easy versions of encounters (in which case you are literally saying that you don't think a calculator is needed for advanced hydrothermal dynamics because you can do mental arithmatec right now), then I guarantee someone in your raid was.

    Even though WoW isn't the game with the most top end encounters ever (it has had I think 6 encounters in it's almost 20 year history that I would consider top end), I can without hesitation tell you that you were not defeating top end encounters in WoW at any point in it's history without trackers being used in the raid.

    maybe other people used them? for sure. but i didnt. according to you, you cant carry a bad player in a top pve encounter. so i either got carried or i just didnt need the tracker
    Noaani wrote: »
    I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

    You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

    ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

    give us example of top pve content in different games.

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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani rn
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  • RuerikRuerik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Almost 200 pages of back and forth when the discussion was already ended by Steven saying he will not build a tracker for us to use.

    Ashes will not have a dev supported tracker, this is clearly stated.


    The discussion should probably focus on
    What should the stance be about 3rd party programs, because they do exist, and nothing Intrepid can do will stop them from existing.

    Do they, go full stop ban anyone that has one? (A risky stance since they have to install a program on your computer to look at what else is running, which is illegal in many eastern countries, a big market for them to not sell the game in just to snoop on us)

    Do they, ban people caught using one? A common stance in the industry of dont ask dont tell, and what I personally think is the best solution, since it allows people to use what they want anyway, and gives the pitchfork wielders a sense of victory that they get to be 'right'. Everyone wins.

    Do they just acknowledge the existence and warn against use because its not their program and they cant gaurantee its not malware? And then we all go along with our daily grind?


    DPS meters dont hurt anyone, meta gamers going to meta game one way or another, tools or no tools. Toxic gamers going to be toxic tools or no tools.

    **Deadly Boss Mods** style addons **DO** hurt everyone as a community, and should be a different discussion than DPS meters.

    Really though, its a live and let live kind of situation. Me or anyone use measuring dps doesnt affect you or anyone else that doesnt use one.

    In the words of Mr. Rogers. "Cant we all just get along?"
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    Really though, its a live and let live kind of situation. Me or anyone use measuring dps doesnt affect you or anyone else that doesnt use one.
    It ultimately influences everyone if Intrepid decide to keep making harder encounters to keep the top pvers in the game (that is if they even manage to get any in the first place).

    Trackers will make fights easier, so pvers with them will ask for harder fights. If Intrepid comply, people who were maybe able to do those encounters before would either have to go use trackers or completely forget about any future encounters.

    If Intrepid don't comply - they lose hardcore pvers. At which point I'm not even sure if it would be worth it to advertise their game as "having good pve". The latest Steven appearance kiiiiinda touched on this, but he just weaseled himself out of a comparison between super basic pve of games like AA by saying "well, you'd have to give a direct example, but we're definitely making difficult pve for Ashes, sir yes sir".

    The worst thing in all of this, as you and others have pointed out already, is that Intrepid wouldn't ever know if the top pvers even have trackers on their PCs. Obviously it would be logical to assume they do, but you'd never know for sure. And at that point Intrepid would be trying to figure out if their current pve encounters are just the right amount of fun for the most amount of players or if it's so damn hard for the 95%, while it's super easy for the 5% who have trackers.

    And there'd be a super vocal minority on both sides, so it's not like Intrepid could simply look at feedback and just decide which way it is.
  • RuerikRuerik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There is a big difference between DPS meters, and 'deadlybossmods' style addons.

    people with DPS meters arent any better at the game than people without. source: I've cleared every content in wow and ff14 (every content, meaning the ultimates too). I am a speedrunner type of player, I like to study encounters and optimize my ability use to squeeze out even the tiniest bit more damage to go faster. I am not the best player, but I am certainly a tryhard and I like to do the big damages, and usually find myself measured in the top 5% or better.

    Doesnt make me a better player, or the fights easier that I can measure my teams performance. Just gives me a way to look at the fights after the raid night is over before we go back the next day.

    I still have to learn and understand all the mechanics, by watching video recordings of my or other players at the same prog point I am on, and that research has nothing to do with a dps meter, this research right here is what seperates good players that clear fast from decent players. Not a dps meter, but hours spent during prog reviewing footage.

    I still have to perform, the mechanics dont simply do themselves just because I know what damage is. the meters just allow me to analyze and science things better to develop better solutions to the raid.


    Mixed into this entire 200 page "debate" is DBM addons, or their equivalent in other games.
    DBM style addons however, play the game for people, to the point where is there even a point to calling yourself a gamer if you rely on them. There is no fun or challenge when I have something on my screen that says "GO STAND OVER HERE, AND USE THIS ABILITY!!" and then draws an arrow for me telling me where to go. In my eyes that is a totally different discussion than a dps meter. This garbage ruins the game for everyone in my opinion.

    I dont care about triggers that say an aoe is about to go off, when I can also just look with my own eyes to see that yes indeed, the aoe is about to go off. Doesnt really impact things in my view. I do care when a third party app plays the game for someone however.

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  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

    You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

    ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

    Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    I still have to perform, the mechanics dont simply do themselves just because I know what damage is. the meters just allow me to analyze and science things better to develop better solutions to the raid.
    So they make it easier for you to perform better. Which precisely my point and one of Noaani's points (but for a different reason).

    Say there's a super hardcore boss. With a tracker that explains to you everything that has happened in the fight to the minute detail you can manage to beat the boss after 50 tries (I know this is a super low attempt quantity, but whatever). W/o said tracker it'd take you way longer to figure out where exactly you could max out your output or where you had issues with boss mechanics, so instead of 50 it'd be 100 tries (again, purely for example).

    If said boss respawns twice a week that's a difference of half a damn year, which is supposedly the content release schedule for Intrepid. So instead of consuming all the top tier content in half the time, you give devs more time to feed you content.

    And as I said already, in the context of trackers, once you're done with that kind of difficulty of bosses you'd want a great new challenge. And in this scenario you'd want that challenge halfway till expansion, while other players (of supposedly same skill) that weren't using the tracker would be still figuring out how to beat the boss.

    And for the next expansion Intrepid might look at groups of tracker people and say, well if we don't give them good new challenges they might get bored with the game, but if we introduce even harder bosses then everyone w/o trackers would never keep pace with the updates nor with tracker people (which is bad in the context of a pvx game).

    At which point Intrepid would have a few choices: disregard the tracker people, disregard the non-tracker people, separate the content into difficulty ranges (pretty much impossible for open world content so this is kinda out of the picture) or make twice as much content in half the time. All of those choices are shite for a dev company, as far as I understand it.

    And for the non-tracker players there'd pretty much be no other choice other than to start using trackers as well, at which point it's no longer "live and let live", it's just a "my way or the highway" approach.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm a big boy and can survive toxicity. What's harder to survive is a lack of balance. Really Steven should rethink the policy of no official dps meter. Better everyone has one rather than some in my opinion.
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  • RuerikRuerik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm going to be real honest with you, and I dont meant to say this in a toxic or negative way, its just how it is.

    If it takes someone half a year to clear a boss, trying every week

    1) Either the boss is extremely over tuned, and probably not meant to be cleared except by less than 1% of the playerbase anyway.

    2) or they have major issues performing mechanics that have nothing to do with pushing more DPS numbers, and more to do with very basic raid requirements such as awareness and coordination.

    The real path forward to clearing bosses in a reasonably fast measure of time is reviewing video footage that you or others record to figure out the tricks to mechanics. DPS checks do exist, but have only ever held back groups for a little while, on the scale of a few weeks at best. Never in the history of RPG games held back groups for half a year.

    But maybe I am wrong, maybe Intrepid plan to go with mechanically simple bosses where the entire focus is on tank and spank pushing big damage, who knows I guess. I would personally not like that, I am hoping for mechanically complex encounters like in Wildstar or FF14.

    In the case Intrepid make fights very simple, I yield to you that a DPS meter is a bigger advantage here than it would be in other games.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    l
    Taerrik wrote: »
    I'm going to be real honest with you, and I dont meant to say this in a toxic or negative way, its just how it is.

    If it takes someone half a year to clear a boss, trying every week

    1) Either the boss is extremely over tuned, and probably not meant to be cleared except by less than 1% of the playerbase anyway.

    2) or they have major issues performing mechanics that have nothing to do with pushing more DPS numbers, and more to do with very basic raid requirements such as awareness and coordination.

    The real path forward to clearing bosses in a reasonably fast measure of time is reviewing video footage that you or others record to figure out the tricks to mechanics. DPS checks do exist, but have only ever held back groups for a little while, on the scale of a few weeks at best. Never in the history of RPG games held back groups for half a year.

    But maybe I am wrong, maybe Intrepid plan to go with mechanically simple bosses where the entire focus is on tank and spank pushing big damage, who knows I guess. I would personally not like that, I am hoping for mechanically complex encounters like in Wildstar or FF14.

    In the case Intrepid make fights very simple, I yield to you that a DPS meter is a bigger advantage here than it would be in other games.

    They literarily aren't going for ff14 or WoW, their challenges and mechanics are going to revolve around more pvx and open dungeons. So if you are expecting something like one person does not do the mech right so its a raid wipe instantly, that wont be a thing.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    And for the non-tracker players there'd pretty much be no other choice other than to start using trackers as well, at which point it's no longer "live and let live", it's just a "my way or the highway" approach.
    Especially when contesting a boss with PvPers using combat trackers.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    And for the non-tracker players there'd pretty much be no other choice other than to start using trackers as well, at which point it's no longer "live and let live", it's just a "my way or the highway" approach.
    Especially when contesting a boss with PvPers using combat trackers.

    I think it is reasonable to assume that the FFXIV outcome would happen.

    The sort of person who doesn't want the equivalent of a Tracker is often content believing that others aren't using them.

    Like people who don't believe in knowing frame data.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I mean... in FFXIV, you will get banned if you announce that you're using a combat tracker.
    If you won't get banned for using a combat tracker, so many people will straight up tell you they use a combat tracker that you expect the vast majority of non-casual players to be using combat trackers.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I mean... in FFXIV, you will get banned if you announce that you're using a combat tracker.
    If you won't get banned for using a combat tracker, so many people will straight up tell you they use a combat tracker that you expect the vast majority of non-casual players to be using combat trackers.

    I'm sure Intrepid will make sure you get banned for any blatant violations of their ironclad ToS, yes.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • RuerikRuerik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I mean... in FFXIV, you will get banned if you announce that you're using a combat tracker.
    If you won't get banned for using a combat tracker, so many people will straight up tell you they use a combat tracker that you expect the vast majority of non-casual players to be using combat trackers.

    This is the best way to handle it in my opinion.
    The raiders that want it get to know what damage is, and no one has to know or be bothered by it. Everyone wins.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Erahh wrote: »
    I think Steve is right in what he said, DPS meters create toxics group and meta builds.
    Play the game, learn it yourself, find what works for you.

    Raid and dungeon groups are not are friendly thing in the MMORPG world, if you underperform for any reason you're out, it doesn't give people the chance to improve and makes them steer away from such content.

    I'm sure some people are saying they wouldn't have this toxic mindset but its a straight lie.

    WOW is a clear indicator on why they're bad.

    They do have their upsides but the downsides greatly outweigh them.

    The problem with WoW isn't combat trackers. If trackers were the issue, then Archeage would be the least toxic game out there, and EQ2 would be the most toxic - but in reality EQ2 is the least toxic community I have ever played in, and Archeage is the most.

    The problem with WoW is the LFG/LFR system. If you create a major system in your game that treats players as disposable, you shouldn't be surprised if players start treating each other as disposable.

    If you are running a group or raid and a combat tracker is giving you information that suggests someone in the raid isn't performing their role as expected, that isn't toxic in and of itself (that is the only thing a combat tracker can do in this regard).

    It is what happens from this point on that could be considered toxic though. If the raid leader decides to boot you from the raid for poor performance, and argument could be made that this is toxic. However, a raid leader is only going to boot you from the raid that is already in progress if they are confident they can quickly replace you. If there is no methord to easily replace you, then the raid leaders best option is to try and help you improve.

    So, the game system that is causing toxicity in this situation is not the combat tracker, it is the LFG/LFR system - or the family summons in the case of Ashes.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited September 2023
    Depraved wrote: »
    maybe other people used them? for sure. but i didnt. according to you, you cant carry a bad player in a top pve encounter. so i either got carried or i just didnt need the tracker
    The people that created the meta build you used made heavy use of combat trackers, and the people running your raid used them.

    I've said a few times in this thread that a singular person that is just a somewhat capable muppet filling a spot in a raid does't need to use one. It is only the people actually working shit out that need them - be that builds or encounters.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

    You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

    ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

    Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

    I base them on reality as well. I just know that people like you have significantly different experiences to someone like me - and I also happen to know that people like you assume that what ever game they happen to be playing is the hardest, because you would not want to be seen playing what is inherently an easy game.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    Either the boss is extremely over tuned, and probably not meant to be cleared except by less than 1% of the playerbase anyway.
    Replying to a few of your posts with the one quote here.

    To the above, I agree. It is unusual that a mob would take 6 months or more to kill - but it does indeed happen. I have seen a boss that was killed by 0.0002% of the player base before the next content cycle with a level cap increase came out. I have no expectation of any encounter even remotely close to that being even considered for Ashes.

    Your comment on what Ashes bosses will be is fairly accurate. For the most part they will mechanically simple encounters, because the "challenge" for them is supposed to come from PvP, not from the encounters. You can't really have an encounter like Yogg-Saron while there are other players fighting you as well. Then there is the fact that most Ashes raids (perhaps all - Intrepid haven't said anything on this as yet) will not be restricted in terms of player numbers - you could well have 40 people trying to kill the encounter, or you could have 400.

    The basics of the games design prevent actually worthwhile boss encounters (as in, the encounter itself is worthwhile) from existing.

    As to your discussion on how Intrepid should look at trackers - the tracker I have right now is able to parse combat from the games livestreams, and work is being done on getting it to run on Android. Even if Intrepid installed something to hunt out a combat tracker, they can only install that on the computer that has their client. If my tracker isn't on that computer, they can't do a whole lot.

    Your comments on DBM being a different thing is very true. Throughout this thread I have talked about combat trackers (which many people erroniously call DPS meters - that is one function of a combat tracker) and combat assistants.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

    You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

    ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

    Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

    I base them on reality as well. I just know that people like you have significantly different experiences to someone like me - and I also happen to know that people like you assume that what ever game they happen to be playing is the hardest, because you would not want to be seen playing what is inherently an easy game.

    Blah blah blah.
    Show a video or shut up.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think dps meter is more accurate. Dbm is a combat tracker. A dps meter simply monitors dps, hps and threat generation either via stacks or via specific skills.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    I think dps meter is more accurate. Dbm is a combat tracker. A dps meter simply monitors dps, hps and threat generation either via stacks or via specific skills.

    DBM doesn't just track combat though, a combat tracker is doing nothing but tracking (or monitoring).
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

    You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

    ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

    Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

    I base them on reality as well. I just know that people like you have significantly different experiences to someone like me - and I also happen to know that people like you assume that what ever game they happen to be playing is the hardest, because you would not want to be seen playing what is inherently an easy game.

    Blah blah blah.
    Show a video or shut up.

    Have you literally ever seen anyone talking about difficult MMO's in general who mentions ESO without being laughed at?
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Anything that tells you to dodge or avoid mechanics is a tracker. Anything that monitors performance is a meter. You don't have a tracker installed to gas and electric, you have a meter.
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  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

    You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

    ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

    Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

    I base them on reality as well. I just know that people like you have significantly different experiences to someone like me - and I also happen to know that people like you assume that what ever game they happen to be playing is the hardest, because you would not want to be seen playing what is inherently an easy game.

    Blah blah blah.
    Show a video or shut up.

    Have you literally ever seen anyone talking about difficult MMO's in general who mentions ESO without being laughed at?

    Your mmos exist only in your head. Show a difficult, wholesome PvE encounter or shut up.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Anything that tells you to dodge or avoid mechanics is a tracker. Anything that monitors performance is a meter. You don't have a tracker installed to gas and electric, you have a meter.

    While I won't say they don't exist, I have yet to see a finished version of a combat tracker that measures player output but doesn't also have the ability to monitor for enemy ability trigger alerts.

    This is why I would suggest that a DPS meter is a function of a combat tracker.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited September 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

    You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

    ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

    Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

    I base them on reality as well. I just know that people like you have significantly different experiences to someone like me - and I also happen to know that people like you assume that what ever game they happen to be playing is the hardest, because you would not want to be seen playing what is inherently an easy game.

    Blah blah blah.
    Show a video or shut up.

    Have you literally ever seen anyone talking about difficult MMO's in general who mentions ESO without being laughed at?

    Your mmos exist only in your head. Show a difficult, wholesome PvE encounter or shut up.

    3 replies to this.

    1, as is my reply to anyone that demands anything from me - no.

    2, I've already mentioned such encounters by name. Videos of them don't exist because people in games that are actually competitive don't record them. Even if they did exist, if you aren't familiar with the mechanics via actually playing the encounters in question, a video of a compex encounter isn't going to be able to show you anything of value.

    3, wha the fuck does "wholesome" have to do with anything?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    I'm going to be real honest with you, and I dont meant to say this in a toxic or negative way, its just how it is.
    It's about distillation of content in the long term. Noaani said he knows a boss that was killed by a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase in the, allegedly, most competitive pve mmo out there. Which means that any normal player wouldn't even come close to the bosses that were half as difficult. And this would just keep happening because the ones who do clear that content would want more content like that, because that's the only fun thing for them (or at least that's what I've gathered from Noaani's comments).

    My numbers were there just for an extreme example, but the point still stands. PvE difficulty will get out of hand much quicker if Intrepid decides to completely accept the existence of meters/trackers. Obviously that existence is inevitable, but it's more about how Intrepid approach that inevitability rather than the sheer argument of what they should do about allowing or prohibiting meters.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Taerrik wrote: »
    I'm going to be real honest with you, and I dont meant to say this in a toxic or negative way, its just how it is.
    It's about distillation of content in the long term. Noaani said he knows a boss that was killed by a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase in the, allegedly, most competitive pve mmo out there. Which means that any normal player wouldn't even come close to the bosses that were half as difficult. And this would just keep happening because the ones who do clear that content would want more content like that, because that's the only fun thing for them (or at least that's what I've gathered from Noaani's comments).

    My numbers were there just for an extreme example, but the point still stands. PvE difficulty will get out of hand much quicker if Intrepid decides to completely accept the existence of meters/trackers. Obviously that existence is inevitable, but it's more about how Intrepid approach that inevitability rather than the sheer argument of what they should do about allowing or prohibiting meters.

    Also they nerfed Baltheus so there's that.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Also they nerfed Baltheus so there's that.
    Wait, seriously? Fuck, I need to go finish that game before they make more changes. I'm glad I beat him in ~20 tries before the nerf, but if they're about to nerf even more shit I better go be a proper gamer, otherwise my card will be revoked. God damn it.
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