Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
@Tragnar
just look at the Design of each Dungeon revealed so far. Every single one of them has a portal as the entrance to the boss of the raid room.
Why do you think that is? Because Intrepid got bored of the seamless open world they have praised so much?Probably not. Its much more likely that they simply inhibit other people from joining the boss fight while in Combat, the same way these kind of portals has been used time and time again in other open World MMOs.
Putting difficult PvE mechanics into an open world boss fight isn't that hard. You merely need to inhibit players from joining the boss room and fucking the raid trying to kill it.
How you do that? You simply block anybody, that is currently infight, from using the portal. Which means you have a PvE Raid inside the portal trying to kill the boss, while you have a PvP Raid outside the portal trying to prevent other players from screwing the PvE raid.
Like... you know... what Intrepid has proclaimed from the start, PvE and PvP players having to work together in order to kill these Open World Raid Bosses. aka PvE and PvP being intertwined. After that
- all they gotta do, is: make the boss hard
- implement anti zerg mechanics
Voila, you have challenging PvE Content in a Open World PvP environment.
If the game offers up 20 person raids, a top end guild will have 22 - 24 people.
If a game offers up 40 person raids, the guild will have 48 - 52 people. So basically, the entire guild already is taking on that 40 person encounter.
This is because top end guilds will always conform to the size and shape of guild that is needed to get the best equipment the game has to offer.
Your entire point about how "wouldn't it be good if the whole guild was involved" is essentially saying you want all raid content to be based on who has the biggest zerg - as that is what it always comes down to. If this is how all top end content is added to the game, then all top end guilds will adopt the size and shape of a zerg guild.
I don't want a game that is that mindless. Admittedly, Ashes is heading in the direction of being such a mindless game to play, but that doesn't mean I will go quietly.
I do have to say, I am surprised that you would advocate for zerg tactics being the only actual option for all raid content, which is what you are doing in this post. I was under the impression you were not a fan of zerging in general.
Rest assured though, if the most viable tactic for getting the kill on top end encounters is to just zerg it, top end guilds will be zerg guilds - or more likely alliances with a top end guild running the show and having smaller guild bonuses, and three other guilds of 300 people each to do the main guilds dirty work.
If top end content is all open world, full PvP, no restrictions, then that is without any doubt going to be the meta for the game.
That is a really odd thing to be championing.
That said, psuedo-instancing like this will deal with some of the issues presented, but not all.
The main issue it will not deal with is providing guilds with the piece of mind that they have content that they can take on, content that they can plan guild events around.
This is key to guilds remaining together.
Now, they could make it so the psuedo-instance will always have a boss (quest or item trigger or some such), and this would be a fairly decent idea. At that point though, I would argue that it should lose it's psuedo moniker. At that point it is players going through a portal to a portion of the world where they know the encounters will be there, and they know others can't get it.
That is an instance.
That is exactly the mechanic we are arguing for, that others are saying no to.
It's not the devs jobs to handhold every single guild in the game and make sure they have plenty of content. Guilds will forge their own paths and some of them will fall apart, it's the nature of the beast. Not everybody is gonna kill bosses and get the best gear in the game because the game isn't fair. If my guild falls apart I failed as a leader, it's not the devs fault for not keeping my guild together.
Also, providing content to players is literally the job description of a content developer. That is a stupid argument you are making there.
There are games out there where developers have done a poor job of providing the right type of content to players - we have discussed them in this thread.
The results of not providing the right type of content to players are as follows - increased botting and other forms of cheating, players demaning a pay to win cash shop, and games failing financially.
I am not sure about you, but I want Ashes to still be around in 6 years, and I want it to not have a pay to win cash shop, nor be ruined by cheating.
If Intrepid only provide content for players where one group is able to completely cut off content from all other groups, then that eventuality is simply not a possibility.
We all can agree on that this game isn’t finished yet and it’s good to give opinion about what we want to see changing and what we want to stay, but in the end everyone will not be happy. A game can’t please everyone.
So if a lot of people wants something in the game and IS like it, it may happen. So just because you don’t like it or don’t want that change to happen, it doesn’t mean that change will not happen.
For example:
Maybe IS realize that instanced raid bosses is better or smarter, maybe they disagree, but let people discuss it without calling them stupid. Say that you disagree if you do and why, but you don’t need to comment on every post that disagrees with what you want and tell them they are wrong. We get it, you don’t want it like that.
Here is my opinion on this topic:
I prefer instanced raids over open world raids, that’s just because I suck at PvP and would like to do it as little as possible.
But I do want really hard raids that needs everyone in the raid to pay attention at all times and makes it impossible to do if you don’t. I don’t want it to be just standing in one spot and spamming the attacks. And this is what I think most PvE players in this thread are saying, and that this is hard if not impossible to do for raids that can be ganked in the middle of the fight.
But I understand it’s a PvX game, and that I’ll probably need to PvP, and I understand if I will need it for the raids as well. But make it before the boss and after. You still need to do PvP and you can still loose material if you die after. But let it be a fair fight when one group doesn’t fight a huge boss at the same time. Let the group prepare and do a proper PvP fight and not a PvPvE fight.
This way you have pvp and pve, and you need to be good at both to do the raids. And of course some raids could be open world and the boss It self isn’t as hard. But my opinion is that most should not be entirely open world.
With that said, let’s see how it turns out and hopefully we all get something we like at least.
I genuinely don't understand the point you are making here. There is content in the game, it's your guilds job to secure it for yourselves, that's sortakinda how open world pvp-centric games work. I too want Ashes to have success and still be around and stay right up there with highly successful games like Lineage 2 and EVE. I hate to hurt you here but it WILL be very possible for groups of players to cut off content from other players in this game. That's kind of the point in games where certain resources or areas are scarce and highly sought after and it encourages players to fight.
It's pretty obvious if you just look at the writing on the wall. The two biggest inspirations are Archeage and Lineage 2. I mean how much more obvious can they make it?
That said, two games that both made the same mistake.
Steven has said many times that he is taking insperation from those games, but attempting to not make the same mistakes that they made.
The mistake that both of those games made was not giving players that fall behind a means to catch up.
So what, you want Steven to make a game taking insperation from L2 and AA but not attempt to fix the one biggest mistake both games made?
First of all it's 80% open world, that right there tells you that you will need to PvP. Open world games function through risk versus reward, which is one of the Design pillars of the game. You can see all the games they took inspiration from. EQ and WoW aren't on the list. Instances aren't risky, paying repair bills aren't risky. Guilds hunting you down for months, trying to put spies in your guild to drain your gbank, trying to make all your members miserable are all examples of some actual small amounts of risk.
Caravan system is all focused around PvP. Resources are gonna be localized to certain nodes and you will need caravans to move them around. Caravans will constantly be attacked by enemy guilds and random oppurtunists. This is PvP.
The game is driven by players and Guilds. Guilds will constantly going to war with one another and fighting over resources and making caravan routes safe or unsafe. They will be fighting over control of dungeons that has a very small chance to drop that really good recipe. They will be fighting over control of castles so they can tax the nodes around it and make themselves wealthier. They will be fighting over bosses to craft the best gear. All of this is PvP.
Node control? Also completely centered around PvP. Node sieges are the only way to change the world and unlock new content such as dungeons and world bosses (For people to fight over).
Could you explain to me how this game isn't quite obviously PvP-centric?
Simple. You are only talking about the PvP aspects of the game.
Intrepid have gone to great lengths to say the game is PvX - that if you are PvP or PvE focused you will not do well - that you need to do both.
Now, you have pointed out some of the PvP aspects of that PvX paradigm, and I don't disagree with any of them.
However, in order to make that fit in to a PvX game as Intrepid have said they want, all that needs to happen is some PvE aspects need to be added to the game, which is both what we are asking for here, and is also the easiest way to fix the issues that both L2 and AA had with their individual game design as a whole.
I'm not sure how you don't get that.
I'm not sure how you don't get that PvE aspects are already in the game, and you will need to PvP for them.
I'm sorry if this is breaking your whole world down that Ashes isn't the amazing instanced raiding game you thought, and never will be. I truly do apologize. Be ready to PvP though if you end up playing, because EVERYTHING is centered around it.
Not knocking you, friend. But Intrepid is making a PvX Sandbox MMORPG.
I'm not trying to be condescending, but once you understand the concept, it will be clear. Again, I know this might be confusing and foreign (a lot of AoC is.), just get your head out of the box, and you will see the light. 😁
Edit: I'm not advocating for more instances. I really don't know where I stand. As I haven't been in game, yet. But, if zerging becomes the norm, I am all for instancing.
A great raiding game will have 6 times that many.
Part of the problem here is that since you have never played a game with the content we are talking about, you have no perspective on what it is we are talking about.
Archeage is the MMO I have spent the second most amount of time in (a total of almost 5 years), so I fully understand what you are saying.
It's just that you are wrong.
I like you Knec, you make some solid posts around these forums that I've seen so far. I have played this exact type of game before in the form of Lineage 2 and Archeage and I feel very aware how the meta game will play out.
The game is indeed PvX. PvX in that all systems are intertwined and dependent on 1 another. PvP, PvE, and crafting. You need to be able to do all of those things to find success in Ashes of Creation. To secure open world bosses you will need to be able to PvP other groups in order to secure the boss and make it safe for your group to kill. After you secure the area and kill the boss (PvE) it will drop crafting recipes and materials. You will need to utilize high level crafters to make the best gear in the game and reach an end game state. You can very easily see how it is PvX and all the systems are dependent on one another.
You can apply this to pretty much any part of the game. Your guild will (possibly) fight for control of an open world dungeon entrance. Once you kill all the opposing guild members inside who you are at war with, your group starts to grind mobs inside the dungeon trying to get a recipe to drop or something along those lines. Your group will have to defend that grind spot and dungeon from other groups. You are PvPing and PvEing during this.
I promise you this is very much what the devs meant when they said PvX. I agree it is confusing and foreign to a lot of people. I'm very confident you will understand though.
3-5 instanced raid encounters at a time is just absurd for you to suggest. It's an open world game and instanced raids take tons of time and money to develop, not to mention completely take away from the entire vision. They are the premier feature of a themepark game, and ashes of creation is not one. The devs will end up spending the entire dev cycle keeping the players who log in only on tuesdays and thursdays happy instead of adding to the open world.
Chances are; people will will use diplomacy, when it comes to contented areas. That's the spirit of MMORPGs.
Of course there will be bullies and griefers. That's human nature. But, overall... I believe guilds will come to compromises.
"If you wipe, mind if we take a shot? We'll give you the same courtesy. If not, this can be a very long night".
That very well could happen, and that's what makes open world games fun.
That small a number of encounters will not impact the stated vision of the game - this is even more true if the entrance to those instances is at the bottom of a raid dungeon that players will need to fight down to.
I would agree that it would be a bad idea if we were talking about instanced dungeons, but I am only talking about single encounters. However, it is also worth pointing out that this number fits in to the 20% instanced content that Intrepid are aiming for.
Also, instanced raid encounters take up less development resources than open world raid encounters. This is not a great argument.
Nothings a great argument to you @Noaani. The only thing you will accept is as many instances as you can get your hands on and death to the open world. I hope you have a good time in Ashes.
If you are of the opinion that nothing is a great argument to me, then maybe you should only attempt to argue things you know about.
And I have said many times, I want 3 - 5 instanced encounters.
I don't want more than that, and it is childish of you to suggest otherwise.
I'm not gonna argue with someone who conveniently ignores huge portions of whatever you say to push what is very clearly an agenda. Good luck with this crusade you lead to make the open world less interesting.
My agenda is that I am arguing for Intrepid to include a small amount of instanced raid content in to the game.
Your agenda is to argue against that.
I'm not sure why people having an agenda is suddenly something you care about.
Also, adding instanced encounters won't make the open world less interesting - but this is just more of your lack of understanding of what is being asked for.
That's fine, the real fun in AoC is going to be the open world PvP and territory control of the pinatas. Raid bosses seem like they are going to be a small side activity. With how streamlined WOW/FFXIV are currently. It takes 15$, and month and like 2-3 hours a week for me to keep up with the hardcore raiding in those games outside of patch week. I am just going to play AoC and w/e game is good at the moment.
Currently I play FFXIV like 2-3 hours a week. If I wanted to prog ultimate I could increase that, but right now no one I know wants to invest the serious amount of time and energy learning a fights like that is. If AoC was out right now, I don't think I would be left behind too much by spending 2-3 hours a week on another game.
Just like I don't expect AoC to have mythic/savage tier bosses. I don't expect WOW/FFXIV to have meaningful open world PvP. You just cant get everything from every game. Again I think that is fine. AoC does not have to be the best at every sub category in a MMO. It just has to be the best at enough things to make it worth playing long term.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
As I've said in this thread, these encounters can be enjoyable still. They are great catalysts for PvP.
Here's my theory.
At best, people wanting to raid will perhaps play Ashes a bit, and then log over to another game to raid.
This is taking away from Ashes in literally every single way.
If Ashes adds some instanced encounters to the game, then those players would then be able to raid in Ashes. This means more players in the game, for longer. If those instances are at the end of open dungeons, that means those people are still spending most of their time in the open world, enhancing the PvP aspects of the game.
Then those people zone in to the instance, which for the game is no different to logging out to play a different game.
Then after killing the encounter, they have to zone back in to the open dungeon, and work their way back home.
So, the addition of those instances keeps people in the game rather than going to another game. The fact that they are in the game and fighting to a specific location means they are adding to the PvP aspect of Ashes.
I'm still unsure how this is a loss to anyone in the game.
In Black Desert Online you could flag at will on anyone without penalties. This was a common tactic used to protect farming lanes.
I being a well geared Ninja would do as I pleased and could solo most 2v1 encounters and run and hide against anything too nasty.
That being said;
You could summon minor world bosses with a scroll, and pick up groups would form to maximize scroll efficiency, granted it's been almost about 2 years since I played BDO, but I never saw PVP break out in these areas in the two and a half years I played the game.
Well that's not entirely true, it happened a couple of times and the aggressors got wrecked.
🤷™️
By allowing PvP to happen without any restriction on any amount of pulls then you basically are asking for top end guilds be over cap sized guilds. For example the top-end guild is named Immortals, then you will for sure see Immortals II, Immortals III, Immortals IV with outside the game tools to cooperate giant zerg controls to protect the encounters. Which is a nightmare to cooperate - not to say that I very doubt that the rewards from the raids are going to include players that are on PvP duty.
I have nothing against giant public zerg loot boxes, but those are not difficult and definitely there is no skill required to kill the encounter, but to win the PvP to keep the loot
― Plato
That comment from Steven is what convinced me to back this game.
The notion that people can read that and not assume the game will have at least some instanced top end PvE encounters is beyond me.
Currently in the latest raid in WoW the last boss has been on the hardest difficulty only ~1640 times (1240 horde, 400alliance) which includes all actual boosted players that payed with gold for that kill (to get achievements, mounts from the whole raid).
So if you go even with the minimum of projected active players (based on scanning tools to find active characters) being above few million then you get only around ~0.05% of the population to participate in killing the hardest boss (currently).
And that is raiding with 20 people, which is inherently much easier than raiding with 40 people.
If anyone can fill in statistics of top-end kills from final fantasy I'd be glad.
― Plato