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Open world raids

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Comments

  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Feel free to comment on my points specific to instanced PvE with no loot otherwise it's 100% I know exactly what i'm talking about and you're just avoiding the point because it proves your just here for safe loot and not safe PVE.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    Bricktop wrote: »
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    I'll take that as proof you only want instances for safe epic loot hunts. Confirmed. Thank you.

    @Tyrantor

    Thankyou for confirming my point about you being an idiot and not being able to add anything valuable to a discussion.

    You're wrong and its easy to make stupid remarks and escape being incorrect. But I'm not going to let you off of it.

    You are so silly.

    How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when all you ever do is call everybody who disagrees with you stupid? Honest question.
    Look in the mirror.

    And, he wasn't disagreeing with me. He was in fact coming at me whenever we had a discussion. Talk shit get hit.
  • @Tyrantor
    The answer is simple. No game EVER has created a challenging open world bosses when the boss fight could be influenced by PvP. The PvE challenge was always laughably easy by coordinated players when there was no PvP going around - basically just free loot box that takes 5-15minutes to open

    I am completely fine if the boss loot (the hunting certificates) are in PvP danger after you finish the boss and are transporting the loot to town. What I do not want is for that PvP to happen DURING the boss fight. The difficulty of the fight always suffers and it becomes just a place for another giant PvP battle
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    I know exactly what i'm talking about

    Nope, you don't. I can see it from your responses in my thread relating to PvE difficulty. You were incorrect there too. Not just about caravans, but about my whole post in general. You refused to read any solution past the 3rd one, which happened to also be the one that I clearly stated was controversial, and you paraded the 3rd one as the one and only solution that I wanted to see being implemented into the game.
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Looks like I've won... I'll wait for Noaami to confirm he's not in for not loot as long as he gets difficult "challenging" PvE but considering 2 of 3 have already proven it's about loot and not the challenge, pretty sure I can take my bow now.

    Guess you boys can always buy that epic loot from a crafter, auction house (if available in your area) and of course some free hold/trade market.

    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • Wow, do you even know how will the gear work?

    If you want to have the best gear, then you need to have loot from raids. And all we want is that ALL bosses are "challenging" without any regard to PvP.

    All it seems that you are asking for are piss easy training dummies with a lot of hp so it takes a few minutes to kill and distribute loot for your PvP battles. Am I wrong?
    @Tyrantor
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • I don't really think anyone cares how hard an NPC is.

    Its proven in other games where AI played against itself for 300+ years worth of play time and still got outsmarted and beaten by humans.
  • Orlando wrote: »
    I don't really think anyone cares how hard an NPC is.

    Its proven in other games where AI played against itself for 300+ years worth of play time and still got outsmarted and beaten by humans.

    What you are referring to must be in a PvP setting with equal footing. Which can hardly applied to MMO PvE encounters that are scripted in such a way to give multiple dangers for wipe and essentially being a benchmark for how good the raid is.

    I don't think that raids should be unbeatable, but in my opinion it would be shameful if any raid group could fully clear any AoC raid on the first night the nodes managed to open it
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • Tragnar wrote: »
    I don't think that raids should be unbeatable, but in my opinion it would be shameful if any raid group could fully clear any AoC raid on the first night the nodes managed to open it
    I don't think any raid will be killed on the first night. Unless its a low level one and gets zerged down, then easy.
  • I am not talking about on the first night that the game comes out.

    I am talking about clearing the raid on the day of its own opening any amount of months after the game launches
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • It still gets zerged down though.
  • Bricktop wrote: »
    "Ashes of creation is not for everyone". Some of my fondest memories from Lineage 2 are fighting other guilds for control of world bosses. I really hope they dont change the game to cater to WoW raiders.

    Amen!
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tragnar wrote: »
    Wow, do you even know how will the gear work?

    If you want to have the best gear, then you need to have loot from raids. And all we want is that ALL bosses are "challenging" without any regard to PvP.

    All it seems that you are asking for are piss easy training dummies with a lot of hp so it takes a few minutes to kill and distribute loot for your PvP battles. Am I wrong?
    @Tyrantor

    I would settle for using you, capt and noaani as my training dummies. Though you do understand this isn't WoW where items and gear are constantly soulbound right? Most if not all of the best gear is going to be crafted do you think this means we all need to take crafting to gear out? Do you think this means we can't trade or buy high end / epic type gear?

    If your concern is you won't get special loot because it's not instanced and you might die, you could just farm low level mobs and save up the gold to buy them.

    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • DeadlyDaveDeadlyDave Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tragnar wrote: »
    There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids.

    Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people?

    Can't see this happening, 8k to 10k on a server surely 1 guild (300 cap) not going to rule the whole map
    I tell you what i know about Dwarf's.
    Very little
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    Tragnar wrote: »
    There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids.

    Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people?

    Can't see this happening, 8k to 10k on a server surely 1 guild (300 cap) not going to rule the whole map

    Just a quick correction @Deadly Dave it will be 50k accounts registered to a server with 8-10k players playing at any given time. That's the goal anyway
  • Tyrantor wrote: »
    Tragnar wrote: »
    Wow, do you even know how will the gear work?

    If you want to have the best gear, then you need to have loot from raids. And all we want is that ALL bosses are "challenging" without any regard to PvP.

    All it seems that you are asking for are piss easy training dummies with a lot of hp so it takes a few minutes to kill and distribute loot for your PvP battles. Am I wrong?
    @Tyrantor

    I would settle for using you, capt and noaani as my training dummies. Though you do understand this isn't WoW where items and gear are constantly soulbound right? Most if not all of the best gear is going to be crafted do you think this means we all need to take crafting to gear out? Do you think this means we can't trade or buy high end / epic type gear?

    If your concern is you won't get special loot because it's not instanced and you might die, you could just farm low level mobs and save up the gold to buy them.

    Nah @Noaani would resort to boting as this would be too hard for him...
  • DeadlyDaveDeadlyDave Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Tragnar wrote: »
    There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids.

    Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people?

    Can't see this happening, 8k to 10k on a server surely 1 guild (300 cap) not going to rule the whole map

    Just a quick correction @Deadly Dave it will be 50k accounts registered to a server with 8-10k players playing at any given time. That's the goal anyway

    Ok let me digest this one, because im not sure whether ive got the right end of the stick.
    So i pick a server to play on, my understanding was 8 to 10k players, playing at any given time.
    But 50k registered accounts to the same server ? Am i understanding this right. So what happens if 20k or 30k want to play on the server at the same time, thats one hell of a que ?
    I tell you what i know about Dwarf's.
    Very little
  • If you want to have the highest quality gear only through currency transactions then you must one hell of a good farmer. Because the gear is not going to be hard to purchase, but hard to keep repaired when there are planned extensive maintenance costs most likely paid with the raid loot as well.

    I literally don't understand your PvP bloodthirst - I'll just will not return any fire and watch you get corrupted so bounty hunters might take your gear xD

    I honestly don't understand what your PvP ganking itches have to do with the want to make PvE encounters hard and exclussive to a portion of the playerbase
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited September 2020
    Tragnar wrote: »
    If you want to have the highest quality gear only through currency transactions then you must one hell of a good farmer. Because the gear is not going to be hard to purchase, but hard to keep repaired when there are planned extensive maintenance costs most likely paid with the raid loot as well.

    I literally don't understand your PvP bloodthirst - I'll just will not return any fire and watch you get corrupted so bounty hunters might take your gear xD

    I honestly don't understand what your PvP ganking itches have to do with the want to make PvE encounters hard and exclussive to a portion of the playerbase

    Some people's whole game is standing in front of an auction house and printing money. I don't understand why you don't want to PvP and would rather just sit there and get farmed so that makes two of us who don't understand things.
  • Mainly it comes down from the fact that i've been playing pve healer for a long time so I have been farmed for a long ass time. I don't mind getting killed in the world, but I just hate when someone is following me to reskill me.

    Also people that stand in front of an auction house and printing money are rarely active PvP players - at least in my experience.

    Also what I tried to say is that we do not yet know the supply and demand for the raid materials. Also in my experience guilds sell raid materials if they are in surplus of it or the materials are no longer relevant to them.

    However this is a big topic about the gear system which I think deserves its own thread.

    If it is possible I'd be glad if the topic of the discussion returned to its start - which was about people zerging bosses with hundreds of people and thus the promised difficulty of the raids being in question
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited September 2020
    Tragnar wrote: »
    Mainly it comes down from the fact that i've been playing pve healer for a long time so I have been farmed for a long ass time. I don't mind getting killed in the world, but I just hate when someone is following me to reskill me.

    Also people that stand in front of an auction house and printing money are rarely active PvP players - at least in my experience.

    Also what I tried to say is that we do not yet know the supply and demand for the raid materials. Also in my experience guilds sell raid materials if they are in surplus of it or the materials are no longer relevant to them.

    However this is a big topic about the gear system which I think deserves its own thread.

    If it is possible I'd be glad if the topic of the discussion returned to its start - which was about people zerging bosses with hundreds of people and thus the promised difficulty of the raids being in question

    What other games that are gonna be similar to ashes have you played? Anything like L2, eve, star wars galaxies, etc?

    Either way I really really recommend you stick around and see if the PvE content is "good enough" and don't just write the whole thing off. I had some of the best times in my MMO gaming span playing open world MMORPG and all the shenanigans that goes on in them. Going to war and making peace, fighting over bosses and control of areas, running gank squads looking for enemy guilds. I have been chasing that feeling I had in L2 for a long time now.
  • Tragnar wrote: »
    @Tyrantor
    The answer is simple. No game EVER has created a challenging open world bosses when the boss fight could be influenced by PvP. The PvE challenge was always laughably easy by coordinated players when there was no PvP going around - basically just free loot box that takes 5-15minutes to open

    I am completely fine if the boss loot (the hunting certificates) are in PvP danger after you finish the boss and are transporting the loot to town. What I do not want is for that PvP to happen DURING the boss fight. The difficulty of the fight always suffers and it becomes just a place for another giant PvP battle

    Lineage 2 had very challenging open world fights in the later patches, Antharas and Valakas, both dragons, needed very specific tactics to be killed and even had anti zerg mechanics that were triggered if you brought too many ppl.
    unforgiven_V3.png
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    edited September 2020
    vsD wrote: »
    Tragnar wrote: »
    @Tyrantor
    The answer is simple. No game EVER has created a challenging open world bosses when the boss fight could be influenced by PvP. The PvE challenge was always laughably easy by coordinated players when there was no PvP going around - basically just free loot box that takes 5-15minutes to open

    I am completely fine if the boss loot (the hunting certificates) are in PvP danger after you finish the boss and are transporting the loot to town. What I do not want is for that PvP to happen DURING the boss fight. The difficulty of the fight always suffers and it becomes just a place for another giant PvP battle

    Lineage 2 had very challenging open world fights in the later patches, Antharas and Valakas, both dragons, needed very specific tactics to be killed and even had anti zerg mechanics that were triggered if you brought too many ppl.

    I didnt play l2 and all I could find now for the Antharas fight is simple tank&spank with spawning adds as he looses hp.

    Edit: My bad I found the original strategy for it. Seems pretty advanced for the time, periodic add spawns with raid wide dmg and some crowd control. Seems though that the player count was intended between 49 and 200 which means that the difficulty was never intended to be high otherwise it would not have such a wide intended player count. If the boss is killable by 49 people then the 200 people make it a literal target dummy (unless the players you bring are target dummies)

    Wow I just had to laugh really hard when reading the description - seems that pvp was disabled in the Antharas's room.

    I am sorry if this sounds elitist or arogant, but I need to say this.

    Having bosses that have 90-300 people "required" to kill them are just loot boxes. I am not saying that such events are not cool or that they do not entice guild drama. All I am saying is that any difficulty with such bosses is just to organize enough people to get them to the spot.

    Difficult raids are about playing well and not making any mistakes while following a strategy. If Ashes does not have that then I very much doubt that there might be a goal for me to strive for.

    The only reason why I am actually participating in this forum and waiting for the game is this quote from Steven:
    There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[11] – Steven Sharif
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tragnar wrote: »
    Difficult raids are about playing well and not making any mistakes while following a strategy. If Ashes does not have that then I very much doubt that there might be a goal for me to strive for.

    You should probably add "and has loot and is safe from pvp" because you're against it otherwise right? Let's not forget the challenge your striving for requires loot otherwise "meh" right?

    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • Your mental gymnastics do not stop to amaze me, you are truly hopeless PvP player that needs to have in every action in the game a PvP battle
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2020
    Tragnar wrote: »
    Your mental gymnastics do not stop to amaze me, you are truly hopeless PvP player that needs to have in every action in the game a PvP battle

    how is that mental gymnastics?

    In your quote, you layed out criteria that can be present in a game that has pvp.

    If anything, it's your own mental gymnastics that makes you believe "Difficult raids are about playing well and not making any mistakes while following a strategy" can't involve pvp.
  • Tragnar wrote: »
    vsD wrote: »
    Tragnar wrote: »
    @Tyrantor
    The answer is simple. No game EVER has created a challenging open world bosses when the boss fight could be influenced by PvP. The PvE challenge was always laughably easy by coordinated players when there was no PvP going around - basically just free loot box that takes 5-15minutes to open

    I am completely fine if the boss loot (the hunting certificates) are in PvP danger after you finish the boss and are transporting the loot to town. What I do not want is for that PvP to happen DURING the boss fight. The difficulty of the fight always suffers and it becomes just a place for another giant PvP battle

    Lineage 2 had very challenging open world fights in the later patches, Antharas and Valakas, both dragons, needed very specific tactics to be killed and even had anti zerg mechanics that were triggered if you brought too many ppl.

    I didnt play l2 and all I could find now for the Antharas fight is simple tank&spank with spawning adds as he looses hp.

    Edit: My bad I found the original strategy for it. Seems pretty advanced for the time, periodic add spawns with raid wide dmg and some crowd control. Seems though that the player count was intended between 49 and 200 which means that the difficulty was never intended to be high otherwise it would not have such a wide intended player count. If the boss is killable by 49 people then the 200 people make it a literal target dummy (unless the players you bring are target dummies)

    Wow I just had to laugh really hard when reading the description - seems that pvp was disabled in the Antharas's room.

    I am sorry if this sounds elitist or arogant, but I need to say this.

    Having bosses that have 90-300 people "required" to kill them are just loot boxes. I am not saying that such events are not cool or that they do not entice guild drama. All I am saying is that any difficulty with such bosses is just to organize enough people to get them to the spot.

    Difficult raids are about playing well and not making any mistakes while following a strategy. If Ashes does not have that then I very much doubt that there might be a goal for me to strive for.

    The only reason why I am actually participating in this forum and waiting for the game is this quote from Steven:
    There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[11] – Steven Sharif
    Pvp in the room was not disabled, it's just that once the first person teleported in triggers the spawn (takes 15-30 mins) and until that point people can still tp in and fight for it and if people were dead but ressed they could get up mid raid and try to take it back, was a cool mechanic, the boss was not killable with less than 120-150 players and if u brought more than 200 it scaled up to a 300 player version
    unforgiven_V3.png
  • If you design raids with PvP in mind then the raids are laughably easy. If you create a scaling encounter for hundreds of people then it is inherintly either unkillable or laughably easy.

    And if this quote is to be believed to be true:
    There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[11] – Steven Sharif

    It is literally impossible to have raids that are like: "It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content..." and being in any way shape or form being doable with active PvP around it.
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tragnar wrote: »
    If you design raids with PvP in mind then the raids are laughably easy. If you create a scaling encounter for hundreds of people then it is inherintly either unkillable or laughably easy.

    And if this quote is to be believed to be true:
    There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[11] – Steven Sharif

    It is literally impossible to have raids that are like: "It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content..." and being in any way shape or form being doable with active PvP around it.

    You don't necessarily design raids with the expectation that people will do them while fighting in pvp. It's in the open world, just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. You are supposed to do them with minimal if not any pvp.
  • Marcet wrote: »
    Mojottv wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    Mojottv wrote: »
    Devs have constantly repeat that they aiming to have a game with risk vs reward system, so if you dont want to risk you dont get the best reward. Pvp in open world raids and open world PVE content adds risk. so again, if you dont want to risk, you will go for not as popular raids and hunting grounds. instanced dungeons and raids completely removes this risk. You might say, making pve in instanced dungions harder mitigates this, but in reality after a week youtube will be full of guides how to clear dungions and raids, so all mechanics will be known and content become much easier. if you clear dungeon once, it will be peace of cake to clear it again. With open world pvp you always have risk of being ganked or your raiding interfered and every encounter is different, so its adds more repeatability as never killing a raid will be same experience. Most of wow players stop playing wow after they clear all the PVE content, then wait for new expansion, clear new stuff, then wait again.

    We don't want harder PvE and remove PvP.

    What we fear is Intrepid making PvE too easy, cause of the PvP factor.

    well judging by most comments, pve'rs are asking for instanced dungeons and raids, to have "safespace" for pve content.

    I don't see any reasons for making open world raids hard, with interesting mechanics regardless of extra difficulty due to possible pvp as long as tp spots are mot next to raids, which was said will npt going to be the case, as they want distance to matter. And with family tp feature if you have smart reuse time you wont going to be able to tp whole zerg next to the boss 2nd time. So you win a pvp fight and you have some time to finish the boss.

    That's the problem, what if there's no PvP skirmish in a dungeon end boss??? The boss is just gonna be a piece of cake???

    If I can agree with keeping PvP, you have to agree to not dumb down the difficulty of PvE.

    This a good point.
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