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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Which is why I think it is perfectly reasonable for Intrpid to take a risk on whatever combat system they want. The only way to breath life into the genre is to try fresh new ideas. The hybrid combat style Ashes is trying has not been done before. Not in the way proposed by Intrepid. Personally I really want to see a system where I build a character that uses AC and TT skills. As someone who has played nearly everything, the system excites me.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
its nice to try new things, but imagin, your in a fight and your camera moves like 1000x because your skills need to swich the camera position. one of the reasons that this cannot work for me. but each his own.
Wildstar had both action and tab abilities and I don't think I've ever seen someone speak negatively about it's combat, other than people not liking the telegraphs.
The difference AoC has is it's arbitrary 25%/75% rule and possible vertical gameplay (Mages have a levitate spell and such)
Then don't pick Action combat moves, and move on with your life. Even if you have to pick 25% of your moves as action moves that don't mean you are screwed. AOE Templates like in WOWs mage's blizzard are considered Action Moves by Intrepid's definition. The hybrid combat is not going any where. If you don't like it that is fine, but you are not even in the majority. Every poll I have seen as had a preference for Action combat in the majority. Followed by a preference for both being usable, then lastly there is a minority of people who only want Tab Target.
I played a little of every class in Wildstar, and I played Wildstar for a long time. I can't remember ever slotting a single skill or amp with any tab targeting mechanic. I also remember people loving the telegraph system.
That vertical game play is going to be present in Ashes otherwise they would just use the Wildstar hitbox system where your space on the floor is your hitbox, and not worry about hitbox sizes related to race. Which is a elegant solution, but I don't think they will use it.
As for the 25/75% rule on builds. I think they will see that they is not even necessary, and drop it before launch. Just speculation, but I think we both agree that it is arbitrary and pointless. Let the people play full TT or AC if they want. It literally hurts no one.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
IMO floor 2D hit boxes would be the best option to perfectly balance the varying in height/size of races in Ashes, it works for all types of AoE/Action skills.
The only problem is that it doesn't work for a single type of Action skill which are linear projectile or raycast-detection abilities that Droeh cited in the 8th page of this thread.
He said "I'd say the type of abilities that define Action Combat is linear projectile or raycast-detection abilities."
As for me, I'd say "linear projectile or raycast-detection abilities" define FPS combat, but it can definitely be categorized as an action skill, as it would not require a target.
The best idea i can have for those type of skills to be properly implemented and be balanced with 3D Hitboxes that vary in size depending on character height/size, would be a base hitboxes size(lets call it 100% size HT) for skill to be created around, and have an increase or decrease multiplier for the skill damage based on how bigger or smaller than the 100% size HT the character is.
Example: Character size 25% smaller(75% size HT) than the 100% size HT takes 25% more damage from this type of skill. Basically a reward for the precise aim against a smaller target.
Example 2: Character size 25% bigger(125% size HT) than the 100% size HT takes 25% less damage from this type of skill. Basically a penality for the less precise aim against a bigger target.
And if those type of skills are not prevalent, character size won't become nowhere near "meta defining".
Aren't we all sinners?
As long as there is a logical attempt to balance 3D AC moves I am happy.
Your idea makes sense to me. A smaller target should take more damage than a larger target. This is how it works in general in real life. Training and muscle mass vs body fat can augment the formula, but for the purposes of a MMO you system seems fine.
It actually is not too far off from how Mortal Online 2 is doing it. Mortal Online 2 has a high amount of detain emphasized in how physical size effects in game performance, but it is a good system if you want your RPG to be more in line with reality.
What would prevent Ashes from taking an approach like yours is if they wanted to go for everyone having the same numbers in some sort of pursuit of fairness. I don't agree with this, and think it will make short characters the meta, but I could see it happening.
I kind of want to see what the DEVs come up with. I will be among the first people to say something if I see a broken system.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
There is already precidence for this btw.
Apex Legends made characters with smaller profiles take 5% more damage and characters with larger and who are easier to hit take 15% less damage, and it works pretty well.
Though that is to say who knows how well that'll work in an MMO like AoC
Oh interesting, i didn't knew that, i'm not very into FPSs nowadays, but it definitely makes sense that a mechanic like that would be implemented in a FPS as linear projectile spam with fast killtime is most of the combat, i remember older FPS games like Point Blank, Crossfire and Combat Arms having issues with smaller female thin chracters having huge advantage over your average bulky tall soldier.
I think the deciding factor of it would be the prevalence of those type of skills and alot of testing.
Aren't we all sinners?
As for tab-target, let's just say I'm a support in a 40 man raid and I needed to heal specific members. I need some kind of method like how selecting items with ctrl+LMB works and then I click heal and those selected members gets the skill I just used. Just my silly idea but as long as Intrepid could make a great method of selecting specific party members with ease then all is good.
(Imagine the game "Conqueror's Blade" with the BDO combat system. It would just ruin all tactic and strategy in the Sieges).
The key to good combat is the ability of the combat system to respond to what the player wants. That is why games like Dark Souls or Sekiro are so acclaimed even though their combat is not so flashy.
If the player wants to dodge, the game must easily respond to such action for example. The same for blocking, counter or parry. For these reasons, Blade And Soul's combat system is ideal as a source of inspiration. It's solid, it requires skill, and it uses the target for certain skills that require it.
Of course, it would not be so flashy, and dont forget the virtues and limitations of each class under the Holy trinity model (something that was kind of missing in BNS). In fact, the AoC combat from the video "Combat Preview & Dev Update (August)" was pretty good. Just needs more polish and make the movements more impactful and responsive.
Not entirely reliant on this scheme, simply more reliant, to increase the demand for skill in competitive gameplay while reducing that demand in co-op natured PvE.
I do think there should be "fixed distance" cycling with 3 automatic presets (melee, midrange, maxrange) to activate Action-oriented abilities through double-press rather than always having to manually aim and click at a ground-targets. This is an annoying struggling between things like mouse sensitivity, camera pitch, and all that garbage which varies from game to game and seldom integrated with the native UI.
Fixed distance cycling that remains persistent with camera pitch/angle would suit modular playstyles as well as fulfill the need for accessibility features rather than disappointing any aspiring playerbase.
Wow, Tera, Gw2
Even though I had to create macros to do it. the mouse over healing style is something that feels so good when you get it right. If this is put in game by default then half the battle is gone and I'm sold.
What I like most about the macro's I created was the fluidity of starting the attack also. When i walk up to a mob and start attacking because it 's the only thing nearby it felt horrible to hear "I don't have a target". It's obviously the thing in front of me. So i had to create start attack macro's to handle this. Another thing if by default was there would make life much easier. there may be a dynamic I'm not thinking about here with all the versatile class and archetypes and what should and shouldn't be default but macro writing took up a good chunk of time to get the combat working the way I needed to be a healer/damage dealer.
-Other note on mobility it shouldn't just be a skill that only gives mobility but how your attacks work, ie spear thrust stab that crosses a certain amount of distance, jump attack that moves forward and hits enemies, moves that when you attack move your character slightly left or right.
PvP is all about getting your oponent out of LoS, jumping around like a bunny spamming combos as fast as possible.
Fun for about 10 minutes, for 1% of the playerbase.
It feels like alot of the players that wants AC are players that comes from WoW and havent really played many mmorpgs other than BDO.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
~Masking the save 7 skill tab abilities for hours that will put you to sleep~
You can look at more complex games or simple games Dark souls, soul calibur, devil may cry, smite, star wars fallen order, path of exile, etc
The point of action combat is so there can be more elaborate combat system that can be used against the player, as the player as tools for more detailed movement. Rather than be locked down constantly in cast times etc. Not that such things cant exist but it adds more flavor and freedom . Rather than staring at your keyboard the entire time, for the 20+ skills you need to click, you are more engaged in AC.
And more than that, wouldn’t you only be worried about your aim if you’re trying to use a bow or perhaps some of the many kinds of spells? How about all the AOE abilities that exist, or melee which is conveniently forgotten. Melee in action combat isn’t aim based, you just have to face the general direction lol. But in tab, melee feels disgusting and unnatural and ranged abilities having no aim involved just feels wrong and very much “easy mode”.
That being said movement (only in combat) with how your character attacks and moves with it and feels fluid is good. ie attack rushes forward dealing damage to all enemies and passing through them, You do attack and move back at the same time, you jump forward and do a slam attack. And also the smaller movements from small attacks feel good as well, nothing feels like you are stuck in stone and can cancel some of our attacks to help you react to what people you are fighting do.
That isnt what action combat is, that is just combat in that game.
Dark Souls PvP is a lagfest, Monster Hunter has the occasional desync, and fighting games are heavily reliant on how much the dev team can optimize their netcode.
Now realize that AoC is going to have 250v250 battles.
I'm not saying it can't be done. I hope IS can create some revolutionary netcode that would allow such a thing, but it's less than likely.
The action combat AoC will have will probably not be that kind of action combat.
I mean, just look at New World. The big battles were lag fests, and it was exactly dark souls combat.
It is up to the developers to do what they can, push the limits and create great content. They have smart developers and people that worked on planet side. There are plenty of games out there with tons of players.
Statements like this shouldn't be the focus on what they can and can not do, unless you are a developer you really won't know, or well on the programming side of things (I'm a dev
There are ac mmos out there , rather than trying to convince yourself its nto possible, let the devs figure out what their limits are. And just give great ideas and reference that they can use. So they have as much to pull form as possible in getting the combat where it needs to be. Because game will live or die by the combat. This is the mmo of 2020+, last big mmo came out many many years ago its time for the genre to evolve and we can only hope they can do it.
Oh yea, I completely agree. I absolutely want Intrepid to push themselves to the maximum of their skill. If they could do single-player/small-multiplayer action combat well in an MMO setting I'd be all for it.
My comments are more cautionary to the community who might not understand entirely what they are asking in that regard. Communities tend to get wild expectations and run with them, as seen with NMS and Cyberpunk.
When the weak waver on their path, my spirit shall be their guide
When the strong fall to darkness, my heart shall be their beacon