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Dev Discussion #28 - Hybrid Combat

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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Patsold wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Patsold wrote: »
    Patsold wrote: »
    haha , yea sry but its not a significant success.

    Interesting, would you mind sharing your idea of "significant success".

    Its esport.
    PvP tournaments and how mutch peopel go into it / how many players want PvP.
    And i see mutch more TT Games whit larger PvP Base then AC Games.

    An MMO that is an e-sport?

    WOW is not even a successful e-sport.
    So tell me, what MMORPG is a successful e-sport? Nothing comes to mind.

    compared to other mmos.

    let's be real, mmos are dying. If we look at the numbers of players in the past compared to today, then we cannot speak of success. even wow has lost around 50% of players.
    The players mainly play PvE, one of the reasons New World was redesigned.

    Which is why I think it is perfectly reasonable for Intrpid to take a risk on whatever combat system they want. The only way to breath life into the genre is to try fresh new ideas. The hybrid combat style Ashes is trying has not been done before. Not in the way proposed by Intrepid. Personally I really want to see a system where I build a character that uses AC and TT skills. As someone who has played nearly everything, the system excites me.
    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • PatsoldPatsold Member, Alpha Two
    @Vhaeyne

    its nice to try new things, but imagin, your in a fight and your camera moves like 1000x because your skills need to swich the camera position. one of the reasons that this cannot work for me. but each his own.

  • DreohDreoh Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2021
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Patsold wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Patsold wrote: »
    Patsold wrote: »
    haha , yea sry but its not a significant success.

    Interesting, would you mind sharing your idea of "significant success".

    Its esport.
    PvP tournaments and how mutch peopel go into it / how many players want PvP.
    And i see mutch more TT Games whit larger PvP Base then AC Games.

    An MMO that is an e-sport?

    WOW is not even a successful e-sport.
    So tell me, what MMORPG is a successful e-sport? Nothing comes to mind.

    compared to other mmos.

    let's be real, mmos are dying. If we look at the numbers of players in the past compared to today, then we cannot speak of success. even wow has lost around 50% of players.
    The players mainly play PvE, one of the reasons New World was redesigned.

    Which is why I think it is perfectly reasonable for Intrpid to take a risk on whatever combat system they want. The only way to breath life into the genre is to try fresh new ideas. The hybrid combat style Ashes is trying has not been done before. Not in the way proposed by Intrepid. Personally I really want to see a system where I build a character that uses AC and TT skills. As someone who has played nearly everything, the system excites me.

    Wildstar had both action and tab abilities and I don't think I've ever seen someone speak negatively about it's combat, other than people not liking the telegraphs.

    The difference AoC has is it's arbitrary 25%/75% rule and possible vertical gameplay (Mages have a levitate spell and such)
  • KabufKabuf Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I personally prefer tab tagetting
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Patsold wrote: »
    @Vhaeyne
    its nice to try new things, but imagin, your in a fight and your camera moves like 1000x because your skills need to swich the camera position. one of the reasons that this cannot work for me. but each his own.

    Then don't pick Action combat moves, and move on with your life. Even if you have to pick 25% of your moves as action moves that don't mean you are screwed. AOE Templates like in WOWs mage's blizzard are considered Action Moves by Intrepid's definition. The hybrid combat is not going any where. If you don't like it that is fine, but you are not even in the majority. Every poll I have seen as had a preference for Action combat in the majority. Followed by a preference for both being usable, then lastly there is a minority of people who only want Tab Target.
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Wildstar had both action and tab abilities and I don't think I've ever seen someone speak negatively about it's combat, other than people not liking the telegraphs.

    The difference AoC has is it's arbitrary 25%/75% rule and possible vertical gameplay (Mages have a levitate spell and such)

    I played a little of every class in Wildstar, and I played Wildstar for a long time. I can't remember ever slotting a single skill or amp with any tab targeting mechanic. I also remember people loving the telegraph system.

    That vertical game play is going to be present in Ashes otherwise they would just use the Wildstar hitbox system where your space on the floor is your hitbox, and not worry about hitbox sizes related to race. Which is a elegant solution, but I don't think they will use it.

    As for the 25/75% rule on builds. I think they will see that they is not even necessary, and drop it before launch. Just speculation, but I think we both agree that it is arbitrary and pointless. Let the people play full TT or AC if they want. It literally hurts no one.
    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    That vertical game play is going to be present in Ashes otherwise they would just use the Wildstar hitbox system where your space on the floor is your hitbox, and not worry about hitbox sizes related to race. Which is a elegant solution, but I don't think they will use it.

    IMO floor 2D hit boxes would be the best option to perfectly balance the varying in height/size of races in Ashes, it works for all types of AoE/Action skills.

    The only problem is that it doesn't work for a single type of Action skill which are linear projectile or raycast-detection abilities that Droeh cited in the 8th page of this thread.
    He said "I'd say the type of abilities that define Action Combat is linear projectile or raycast-detection abilities."
    As for me, I'd say "linear projectile or raycast-detection abilities" define FPS combat, but it can definitely be categorized as an action skill, as it would not require a target.

    The best idea i can have for those type of skills to be properly implemented and be balanced with 3D Hitboxes that vary in size depending on character height/size, would be a base hitboxes size(lets call it 100% size HT) for skill to be created around, and have an increase or decrease multiplier for the skill damage based on how bigger or smaller than the 100% size HT the character is.
    Example: Character size 25% smaller(75% size HT) than the 100% size HT takes 25% more damage from this type of skill. Basically a reward for the precise aim against a smaller target.
    Example 2: Character size 25% bigger(125% size HT) than the 100% size HT takes 25% less damage from this type of skill. Basically a penality for the less precise aim against a bigger target.
    And if those type of skills are not prevalent, character size won't become nowhere near "meta defining".
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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    That vertical game play is going to be present in Ashes otherwise they would just use the Wildstar hitbox system where your space on the floor is your hitbox, and not worry about hitbox sizes related to race. Which is a elegant solution, but I don't think they will use it.

    IMO floor 2D hit boxes would be the best option to perfectly balance the varying in height/size of races in Ashes, it works for all types of AoE/Action skills.

    The only problem is that it doesn't work for a single type of Action skill which are linear projectile or raycast-detection abilities that Droeh cited in the 8th page of this thread.
    He said "I'd say the type of abilities that define Action Combat is linear projectile or raycast-detection abilities."
    As for me, I'd say "linear projectile or raycast-detection abilities" define FPS combat, but it can definitely be categorized as an action skill, as it would not require a target.

    The best idea i can have for those type of skills to be properly implemented and be balanced with 3D Hitboxes that vary in size depending on character height/size, would be a base hitboxes size(lets call it 100% size HT) for skill to be created around, and have an increase or decrease multiplier for the skill damage based on how bigger or smaller than the 100% size HT the character is.
    Example: Character size 25% smaller(75% size HT) than the 100% size HT takes 25% more damage from this type of skill. Basically a reward for the precise aim against a smaller target.
    Example 2: Character size 25% bigger(125% size HT) than the 100% size HT takes 25% less damage from this type of skill. Basically a penality for the less precise aim against a bigger target.
    And if those type of skills are not prevalent, character size won't become nowhere near "meta defining".

    As long as there is a logical attempt to balance 3D AC moves I am happy.

    Your idea makes sense to me. A smaller target should take more damage than a larger target. This is how it works in general in real life. Training and muscle mass vs body fat can augment the formula, but for the purposes of a MMO you system seems fine.

    It actually is not too far off from how Mortal Online 2 is doing it. Mortal Online 2 has a high amount of detain emphasized in how physical size effects in game performance, but it is a good system if you want your RPG to be more in line with reality.

    What would prevent Ashes from taking an approach like yours is if they wanted to go for everyone having the same numbers in some sort of pursuit of fairness. I don't agree with this, and think it will make short characters the meta, but I could see it happening.

    I kind of want to see what the DEVs come up with. I will be among the first people to say something if I see a broken system.
    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • DreohDreoh Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2021
    The best idea i can have for those type of skills to be properly implemented and be balanced with 3D Hitboxes that vary in size depending on character height/size, would be a base hitboxes size(lets call it 100% size HT) for skill to be created around, and have an increase or decrease multiplier for the skill damage based on how bigger or smaller than the 100% size HT the character is.
    Example: Character size 25% smaller(75% size HT) than the 100% size HT takes 25% more damage from this type of skill. Basically a reward for the precise aim against a smaller target.
    Example 2: Character size 25% bigger(125% size HT) than the 100% size HT takes 25% less damage from this type of skill. Basically a penality for the less precise aim against a bigger target.
    And if those type of skills are not prevalent, character size won't become nowhere near "meta defining".

    There is already precidence for this btw.

    Apex Legends made characters with smaller profiles take 5% more damage and characters with larger and who are easier to hit take 15% less damage, and it works pretty well.

    Though that is to say who knows how well that'll work in an MMO like AoC
  • edited April 2021
    Dreoh wrote: »
    There is already precidence for this btw.

    Apex Legends made characters with smaller profiles take 5% more damage and characters with larger and who are easier to hit take 15% less damage, and it works pretty well.

    Though that is to say who knows how well that'll work in an MMO like AoC

    Oh interesting, i didn't knew that, i'm not very into FPSs nowadays, but it definitely makes sense that a mechanic like that would be implemented in a FPS as linear projectile spam with fast killtime is most of the combat, i remember older FPS games like Point Blank, Crossfire and Combat Arms having issues with smaller female thin chracters having huge advantage over your average bulky tall soldier.

    I think the deciding factor of it would be the prevalence of those type of skills and alot of testing.
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    Aren't we all sinners?
  • What i would like to see from combat is tab targeting with some aiming spells , cc skills for each class , dodging skills and to feel impactful while using them .An old game that i used to play called Aion had a very cool and fast paced combat style for its time with chains in spells and a lot of movement while using them. I believe it is worth to check and take some ideas from there as well , if u haven't already! keep the good work!
  • Not interested in action combat, at all. If I wanted action, I could play one of the current MMOs or tons of single-player action games (Dynasty Warriors, old Devil May Cry etc). However, when it comes to tab-targeting, I have basically no somewhat modern option at all. There is vanilla WoW...and that's all. Well, I have pretty much already given up on the MMORPG genre (action combat + casualization = no, thank you), so it wouldn't hurt as much if I skip this game due to the combat.
  • edited April 2021
    Is it possible if during action combat mode using a tab target skill momentarily puts you camera to tab target mode for the sake of convenience?

    As for tab-target, let's just say I'm a support in a 40 man raid and I needed to heal specific members. I need some kind of method like how selecting items with ctrl+LMB works and then I click heal and those selected members gets the skill I just used. Just my silly idea but as long as Intrepid could make a great method of selecting specific party members with ease then all is good.
  • MasteMaste Member
    edited April 2021
    It should be noted that a full action combat system (or almost full) is NOT beneficial for an MMORPG like Ashes. We are talking that Ashes has a more immersive world, with caravan attacks, looting, tours and many more role features. Having characters jumping from one place to another every second causes to lose the immersion, and this will cause various ideas and features not to work as planned. Not to mention that the action combat is mostly AoE attacks (precisely because it does not have target), making the combat messy, with targeting issues, without clear class distinctions, and about smashing buttons, as it happens in -most- classes from Black Desert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIKIoOM5gJI
    (Imagine the game "Conqueror's Blade" with the BDO combat system. It would just ruin all tactic and strategy in the Sieges).

    The key to good combat is the ability of the combat system to respond to what the player wants. That is why games like Dark Souls or Sekiro are so acclaimed even though their combat is not so flashy.
    If the player wants to dodge, the game must easily respond to such action for example. The same for blocking, counter or parry. For these reasons, Blade And Soul's combat system is ideal as a source of inspiration. It's solid, it requires skill, and it uses the target for certain skills that require it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N208VqsboVs
    Of course, it would not be so flashy, and dont forget the virtues and limitations of each class under the Holy trinity model (something that was kind of missing in BNS). In fact, the AoC combat from the video "Combat Preview & Dev Update (August)" was pretty good. Just needs more polish and make the movements more impactful and responsive.
  • Hybrid combat is desirable, providing variables to make skills in general feel less robotic and more engaging is a win. Each has their place, but I would think that for the most part - PvE is fine with having mostly tab-oriented target selection and skill activation with specific reasons to use Action-oriented skills, while the competitive nature of PvE forces more on Action-oriented skillful activations than tab-oriented ones.

    Not entirely reliant on this scheme, simply more reliant, to increase the demand for skill in competitive gameplay while reducing that demand in co-op natured PvE.

    I do think there should be "fixed distance" cycling with 3 automatic presets (melee, midrange, maxrange) to activate Action-oriented abilities through double-press rather than always having to manually aim and click at a ground-targets. This is an annoying struggling between things like mouse sensitivity, camera pitch, and all that garbage which varies from game to game and seldom integrated with the native UI.

    Fixed distance cycling that remains persistent with camera pitch/angle would suit modular playstyles as well as fulfill the need for accessibility features rather than disappointing any aspiring playerbase.
  • SwiftpawsSwiftpaws Member, Alpha Two
    I really like and want action targeting in MMOS since i am MMORPG player, but i respect that tab targeting situations with players who want tab target combat, after all WoW was my first MMORPG... but if INTREPID goes like GW2 combat, that you can always can have tab targeting and crosshair with action targeting, i thing i would love the game much more :D instead of action or tab targeting only, cause some of my friends love tab targeting and some of them like me action targeting, what if bot there the game will be UNIQUE!
  • The best combat system, that of the L2

    Wow, Tera, Gw2 :s
  • TrobTrob Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Either works for me. I think the fluid feeling of the hit box is important. As a wow healer I can say what's more important than skill shots, tab targeting or/and AOE healing is the mouse over healing! When I need to heal the one guy in the middle of a messy fight I need to mouse over their unit frame not wade through the light show and fireworks to find his name plate.

    Even though I had to create macros to do it. the mouse over healing style is something that feels so good when you get it right. If this is put in game by default then half the battle is gone and I'm sold.

    What I like most about the macro's I created was the fluidity of starting the attack also. When i walk up to a mob and start attacking because it 's the only thing nearby it felt horrible to hear "I don't have a target". It's obviously the thing in front of me. So i had to create start attack macro's to handle this. Another thing if by default was there would make life much easier. there may be a dynamic I'm not thinking about here with all the versatile class and archetypes and what should and shouldn't be default but macro writing took up a good chunk of time to get the combat working the way I needed to be a healer/damage dealer.
    Trob
  • I really like wow style of targeting. i really don't like action targeting it reminds me of slow clunky fighting, wondering why i didn't hit things, or what killed me or when in the action casting of a block, when does the block really block or dodging ect. its really slow. i don't like action targeting at all.
  • So I love the combat system of Bdo(Black Desert Online), full action combat with key combinations as activation requirement for the skills. For example Shift + F, E , Shift+ E, Shift + RMB, S + Q or W + E and so on.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Action combat for sure, with a emphasis on abilities physically effecting player characters (knockbacks, knockdowns, etc) which will create more strategy to combat being able to play with distance and style of combat. As well as characters having mobility and being able to cancel attacks and have quick reactions to what is going on in the battle (based on the ability not everything should be able to be canceled). Those are big keys to creating a fun and interactive combat as if things get too tab target base it becomes a repetitive pattern that can make people get sleepy. Making sure there are a lot of custom keys players can use their abilities from which i feel black desert online does a good job of. So rather than reaching from 1-9 on your keyboard being able to use things like Shift+Q, Shift + E. Shift + right mouse button, E, Q, Shift + F. Buttons such as those that keep your hand on your movement and abilities than having to start click further or weird buttons that will make it more difficult for action combat.

    -Other note on mobility it shouldn't just be a skill that only gives mobility but how your attacks work, ie spear thrust stab that crosses a certain amount of distance, jump attack that moves forward and hits enemies, moves that when you attack move your character slightly left or right.
  • SeloSelo Member
    Maste wrote: »
    For these reasons, Blade And Soul's combat system is ideal as a source of inspiration.
    BnS combat is horrible, and a big reason i dislike AC.
    PvP is all about getting your oponent out of LoS, jumping around like a bunny spamming combos as fast as possible.
    Fun for about 10 minutes, for 1% of the playerbase.

    It feels like alot of the players that wants AC are players that comes from WoW and havent really played many mmorpgs other than BDO.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Reading some of these older post in this thread and people saying they want tab target and saying its better really don't understand AC in the slightest. Its not just about twtich reactions id argue you don't need to worry about missing every shot etc. There are plenty of action based games out there that are fun and more intuitive then
    ~Masking the save 7 skill tab abilities for hours that will put you to sleep~

    You can look at more complex games or simple games Dark souls, soul calibur, devil may cry, smite, star wars fallen order, path of exile, etc

    The point of action combat is so there can be more elaborate combat system that can be used against the player, as the player as tools for more detailed movement. Rather than be locked down constantly in cast times etc. Not that such things cant exist but it adds more flavor and freedom . Rather than staring at your keyboard the entire time, for the 20+ skills you need to click, you are more engaged in AC.
  • CypherCypher Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah a lot of people for some reason think action combat in an MMO will be like a twitch shooter or something lol.

    And more than that, wouldn’t you only be worried about your aim if you’re trying to use a bow or perhaps some of the many kinds of spells? How about all the AOE abilities that exist, or melee which is conveniently forgotten. Melee in action combat isn’t aim based, you just have to face the general direction lol. But in tab, melee feels disgusting and unnatural and ranged abilities having no aim involved just feels wrong and very much “easy mode”.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Like bdo has already done the way work, just take some elements from it and its easy from there. Elenmts like how your character moves and attacks and doesn't feel as static. There is a lot of BAD in bdo game has 0 balance, and a lot of broken mechanics like infinite super armor and I frames, one combo skilling everyone. Potion pot spam, and if i didn't say it before ill say it again game is seriously unbalanced as hell and a aoe fest.

    That being said movement (only in combat) with how your character attacks and moves with it and feels fluid is good. ie attack rushes forward dealing damage to all enemies and passing through them, You do attack and move back at the same time, you jump forward and do a slam attack. And also the smaller movements from small attacks feel good as well, nothing feels like you are stuck in stone and can cancel some of our attacks to help you react to what people you are fighting do.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Selo wrote: »
    Maste wrote: »
    For these reasons, Blade And Soul's combat system is ideal as a source of inspiration.
    BnS combat is horrible, and a big reason i dislike AC.
    PvP is all about getting your oponent out of LoS, jumping around like a bunny spamming combos as fast as possible.
    Fun for about 10 minutes, for 1% of the playerbase.

    It feels like alot of the players that wants AC are players that comes from WoW and havent really played many mmorpgs other than BDO.

    That isnt what action combat is, that is just combat in that game.
  • DreohDreoh Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    People are still bringing up non-MMO action combat games like Dark Souls and fighting games but don't realize that even those frame-perfect small-battle action games push net-code to their limits.

    Dark Souls PvP is a lagfest, Monster Hunter has the occasional desync, and fighting games are heavily reliant on how much the dev team can optimize their netcode.

    Now realize that AoC is going to have 250v250 battles.

    I'm not saying it can't be done. I hope IS can create some revolutionary netcode that would allow such a thing, but it's less than likely.

    The action combat AoC will have will probably not be that kind of action combat.

    I mean, just look at New World. The big battles were lag fests, and it was exactly dark souls combat.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Dreoh wrote: »
    People are still bringing up non-MMO action combat games like Dark Souls and fighting games but don't realize that even those frame-perfect small-battle action games push net-code to their limits.

    Dark Souls PvP is a lagfest, Monster Hunter has the occasional desync, and fighting games are heavily reliant on how much the dev team can optimize their netcode.

    Now realize that AoC is going to have 250v250 battles.

    I'm not saying it can't be done. I hope IS can create some revolutionary netcode that would allow such a thing, but it's less than likely.

    The action combat AoC will have will probably not be that kind of action combat.

    I mean, just look at New World. The big battles were lag fests, and it was exactly dark souls combat.

    It is up to the developers to do what they can, push the limits and create great content. They have smart developers and people that worked on planet side. There are plenty of games out there with tons of players.

    Statements like this shouldn't be the focus on what they can and can not do, unless you are a developer you really won't know, or well on the programming side of things (I'm a dev :))

    There are ac mmos out there , rather than trying to convince yourself its nto possible, let the devs figure out what their limits are. And just give great ideas and reference that they can use. So they have as much to pull form as possible in getting the combat where it needs to be. Because game will live or die by the combat. This is the mmo of 2020+, last big mmo came out many many years ago its time for the genre to evolve and we can only hope they can do it.
  • DreohDreoh Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2021
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    People are still bringing up non-MMO action combat games like Dark Souls and fighting games but don't realize that even those frame-perfect small-battle action games push net-code to their limits.

    Dark Souls PvP is a lagfest, Monster Hunter has the occasional desync, and fighting games are heavily reliant on how much the dev team can optimize their netcode.

    Now realize that AoC is going to have 250v250 battles.

    I'm not saying it can't be done. I hope IS can create some revolutionary netcode that would allow such a thing, but it's less than likely.

    The action combat AoC will have will probably not be that kind of action combat.

    I mean, just look at New World. The big battles were lag fests, and it was exactly dark souls combat.

    It is up to the developers to do what they can, push the limits and create great content. They have smart developers and people that worked on planet side. There are plenty of games out there with tons of players.

    Statements like this shouldn't be the focus on what they can and can not do, unless you are a developer you really won't know, or well on the programming side of things (I'm a dev :))

    There are ac mmos out there , rather than trying to convince yourself its nto possible, let the devs figure out what their limits are. And just give great ideas and reference that they can use. So they have as much to pull form as possible in getting the combat where it needs to be. Because game will live or die by the combat. This is the mmo of 2020+, last big mmo came out many many years ago its time for the genre to evolve and we can only hope they can do it.

    Oh yea, I completely agree. I absolutely want Intrepid to push themselves to the maximum of their skill. If they could do single-player/small-multiplayer action combat well in an MMO setting I'd be all for it.

    My comments are more cautionary to the community who might not understand entirely what they are asking in that regard. Communities tend to get wild expectations and run with them, as seen with NMS and Cyberpunk.
  • Oh, nice one, i am not against Action Combat (enjoying it in BDO), but me personally i am tab target gal(playing AION since CB till today...). I always play healers and have my pt members set on binds to swap fast between them while rotating my camera all over the place to make sure i see how they position themselves and who protentionaly will cause trouble with unwanted aggro or who is too far from me for mass heals etc. I will be testing both to see what is optimal and works for me best, but if i have to vote one or the other Tab comes first for me o:)
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    When it comes to support type skills i agree it shouldn't be a guessing game or made difficult to heal your team. Since I personally don't see that kind of support as action combat in a mmo.
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