Action combat is surely the favorable system. Makes more room for skill expression, not to say there is not any in TT. Looking at the games with commendable combat, many of them have been action combat, like BDO and Blade & Soul (even if the games have otherwise flawed monetization and other systems, good combat.) Hybrid games are very rare but can have very big potential. I am looking forward to seeing how the Intrepid team handles this, but I would like to see more of a focus on action combat if I have to pick.
I would like to see a nice mix. I think that AC is more appealing and intresting for the long run but TT is important for the bigger playerbase, which cant compete with the mechanics to well. But everything depends on the combat itself. Is it fast pace or slow? Do you have long cast times or just instant spells? What are the hitboxes like.
Personally i wish there would be an mmorpg with a combat system like For Honor, i love that combat, cause it is really intresting and if you are good you can be good. But i dont see how this could work in an mmorpg. Wow for example is a bit boring, cause you learn your rotation and just do that.
Well i am intrested in what you will create. Just have fun :-)
Defiantly a mix of both. I think getting good at hitting skill shots will be an important factor in showing mastery of the game. Also, im sure you already know this just giving my opinion, having the highest impact ability's being skill shots would be best, i dont want some newb hitting me with a point and click ability from 100 feet away that stuns me for 5 seconds. but yeah having both is relay cool.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
All I can think about is how boring it’ll be if they copy GW2. It’s tab target with the option to use a fixed reticle instead of a cursor. The game still plays exactly the same just with you not having to hold your right mouse button to turn your camera. It is not hybrid, don’t let them tell you it’s hybrid, that would imply there is anything resembling action in the game and there isn’t.
We definitely need MORE in the way of combat than pressing up to 10 hot keys on your bar, one at a time. The only way to make a “hybrid” instead of just action and tab combat systems side by side (which would be the best way to please both crowds) is to introduce attack combos like I’ve said in previous posts. “Press 1 for fireball, 2 for lightning, 3 for drain essence, etc” is boring and gets old real quick. “Oh no I accidentally leashed a powerful mob, allow me to practice my counting skills by pressing 1,2,3,4,5 on my keyboard until it dies”. Such combat. Much fun. Wow.
I prefer the classic tab mode. I think the action combat system is too exhausting in the long run.
some special abilities with action combat mode would be okay. think that 1-3 skills with an action system should be sufficient, for example for skills that do high damage ..
my opinion or desire for ashes of creation
I'm really looking forward to the beta test and especially to the publication
Greetings from Germany
I like tab targeting more but I am not saying no to the pin point abilities either. I feel like this game is not a FPS and people will be playing it also for many different reasons than just competetiveness. These people should not be punished for not being able to aim with your mouse as good as FPS players.. At the same time having just tab skills takes a lot of fun out of the game. I would say it is important to find some middle ground and not make it either way too hard / easy. I vote for fireball to be TAB! :-)
what is important for me is that we get some action combat that is crosshair based, keep it simple ESO has one of the easiest action combat from my experience and would work the best with a tab target system, as it would work well with the type of combat, BDO combat have a tendency to end up being a big mess with all the blinking back and forth, and with a game with tab target this just wont work. Something like GW2 action camera mode or ESO action camera, would fit very well with a Tabtarget combat system.
The other important thing for me would be that I can easily swap between targets without using mouse.
With tab system I would like it to highlight add even trough ads, and walls, cast able trough ads but not walls. so you can tab-target a add to chain it in even if boss blocks vision.
A hybrid combat style like guild wars 2 or even like how league doed it... For example some abilities in league feels right to just click on the target while others feels mandatory to aim .. i suppose the devs should look into each of the classes abilities and really stormbrain how they should approach each one of'em ... The way the combat is right now feels like it just exist for testing purposes mashed with cool effects , and it give the idea that there was no thought process behind it.
I really think the combat system should be built up from the ground while thinking how each ability fit into the world of Verra.
All I can think about is how boring it’ll be if they copy GW2. It’s tab target with the option to use a fixed reticle instead of a cursor. The game still plays exactly the same just with you not having to hold your right mouse button to turn your camera. It is not hybrid, don’t let them tell you it’s hybrid, that would imply there is anything resembling action in the game and there isn’t.
We definitely need MORE in the way of combat than pressing up to 10 hot keys on your bar, one at a time. The only way to make a “hybrid” instead of just action and tab combat systems side by side (which would be the best way to please both crowds) is to introduce attack combos like I’ve said in previous posts. “Press 1 for fireball, 2 for lightning, 3 for drain essence, etc” is boring and gets old real quick. “Oh no I accidentally leashed a powerful mob, allow me to practice my counting skills by pressing 1,2,3,4,5 on my keyboard until it dies”. Such combat. Much fun. Wow.
Except it is actually by the very definition of a hybrid game a hybrid game. You're in these threads constantly talking about how GW2 is not what it is and that you hate it so much, it's pretty clear you just have some strange bias against it.
You're also acting like GW2 is literally just "stand there and rotate through abilities". It's not. Abilities in GW2 do more than just simple damage or effects, they combo with the rest of the classes kit in unique ways. A good portion of the combat is using abilities in reaction to things. Not to mention another good portion are movement options and various other utility. And finally nearly every ability lets you move while casting, which lets you play reactively while still playing proactively. It's not perfect, no. But Intrepid should use it as a baseline to improve upon.
A combo-string action combat system would not do well with the other systems that make AoC.
Also look how all of the comments before and after you are asking for something similar to if not directly stating GW2 combat.
There are some things i think needs to work for Tab Target and Action combat to work and feel good.
First blur the lines with Tab and Action mode have a crosair displayed at all times when aiming on a target you select your target for tab target mode. You should be able to use your skills regardless of what type it is Tab or Action with out switching modes.
You need to be able to move when casting for all of your skills as soon as you lock down you character for using a skill it feels BAD.
Casting times for action combat skills dont work well and needs to be instant cast or it will feel slow and punishing. Also AC needs to have higher DPS then TT or AC will be redundant and nobody will use it.
CC`s should always be AC skills reward skill not a big tab button.
Also i think combos is something that will need to work as mention earlier in this thread pressing number keys gets old fast and wont feel like action combat.
Also i see a lot of comments saying it should be like in this game or not like that game, intrepid need to come up with there own spin on this system or nobody will be relay happy. But I have to say it BDO have a great combat\ combo system. Also another one that i remember had a GREAT and fun combat system was Dragons Prophet.
That is the key aspects i can think of now, i will be sure to add more if i can think of it.
To put my foot in the race am all in action combat and it make or break the game for me.
Tab target will feel like a 15 year old game.
I have no idea how many tab vs action skills I will spec into. I enjoy the freewheeling, mechanically skilled nature of action combat. And I enjoy the more strategic chess match nature of tab target systems too. I enjoy them both pretty much equally.
Action can have that same strategic chess match feel in a good implementation of it. But tab target guarantees it.
All I can really say right now is that I'm going to spec my character in whatever way is most viable for pvp. I can also say that if the game resembles anything like BDO with a bunch of crackbunnies magically gangbanging each other with shit bouncing around flying all over the place, I will likely quit, like I did with BDO.
If the third-person character controller works like Fortnite (strafing and backpedal). I will use as few action skills as possible.
If the third-person character controller works like Genshin Impact (free rotation), I will use as many action skills as possible.
I enjoy WoW style cause it fits but I also enjoy BDO PvE cause its fun... but BDO pvp is insane so I hope its not too action focused and doesn't turn into BDO PvP style.
There's one guarantee when speaking broadly about the average player. They will choose the path of least resistance almost every time. This is how all METAs have been shaped in MMO history. This hybrid system will be the same. In this case, the path will be the skills that do the most damage/healing over time. Therefore, tab targeting inherently wins if it even comes close to the throughput of action skills because of its reliability. I can effectively spam my abilities with my focus being on cooldown management and my positioning. Which indirectly allows me more time to stare at my UI for buff/debuff changes (i.e. I can focus on more micromanagement). My opponent also won't be able to mitigate my abilities by movement alone or I won't miss that clutch heal on an ally. On the other hand, action skills would need a major throughput dominance over tab targeting because movement can cause them to fail to register. My focus would also be drawn to more macromanagement as I have to stare at the action more to land my abilities. If action skill throughput is high, then they win almost every time unless there is so much lag they become unviable. Why press 3-4 buttons to kill my opponent when I can press 1-2.
There's not a single guild worth its weight that won't force its players to utilize the highest DPS/HPS abilities. This is going to be determined by reliably just as much as actual numbers.
In my opinion, Ashes of Creation should focus on one combat ruleset. Archeage was tab target with a couple of aimed skills thrown in but it had one focus and was one of the best tab target combat systems (but also an example where those few skills hardly ever were taken). ESO is more action-oriented but its soft locking and smart healing system make it easier to pick up and understand. It also offers one of the most fun combat. On the other end, BDO is probably the most skillful action system on the market but it is so well polished and fluid it feels like an arcade fighting game. Therefore, no matter where Ashes falls on this combat spectrum, it can be fun but it needs a defined ruleset. If the idea is we will be able to switch between one ruleset or the other, then the META will decide the path players choose Although that's not inherently bad on its own, I worry how much fun/polished it will be with the devs splitting their attention/resources unnecessarily.
There's one guarantee when speaking broadly about the average player. They will choose the path of least resistance almost every time. This is how all METAs have been shaped in MMO history. This hybrid system will be the same. In this case, the path will be the skills that do the most damage/healing over time. Therefore, tab targeting inherently wins if it even comes close to the throughput of action skills because of its reliability. I can effectively spam my abilities with my focus being on cooldown management and my positioning. Which indirectly allows me more time to stare at my UI for buff/debuff changes (i.e. I can focus on more micromanagement). My opponent also won't be able to mitigate my abilities by movement alone or I won't miss that clutch heal on an ally. On the other hand, action skills would need a major throughput dominance over tab targeting because movement can cause them to fail to register. My focus would also be drawn to more macromanagement as I have to stare at the action more to land my abilities. If action skill throughput is high, then they win almost every time unless there is so much lag they become unviable. Why press 3-4 buttons to kill my opponent when I can press 1-2.
There's not a single guild worth its weight that won't force its players to utilize the highest DPS/HPS abilities. This is going to be determined by reliably just as much as actual numbers.
In my opinion, Ashes of Creation should focus on one combat ruleset. Archeage was tab target with a couple of aimed skills thrown in but it had one focus and was one of the best tab target combat systems (but also an example where those few skills hardly ever were taken). ESO is more action-oriented but its soft locking and smart healing system make it easier to pick up and understand. It also offers one of the most fun combat. On the other end, BDO is probably the most skillful action system on the market but it is so well polished and fluid it feels like an arcade fighting game. Therefore, no matter where Ashes falls on this combat spectrum, it can be fun but it needs a defined ruleset. If the idea is we will be able to switch between one ruleset or the other, then the META will decide the path players choose Although that's not inherently bad on its own, I worry how much fun/polished it will be with the devs splitting their attention/resources unnecessarily.
This is why I mentioned before on the previous page of this thread that the "at least 25% of either" rule is actually just an arbitrary band-aid fix that sounds good on an inherently flawed proposal. If anything the restriction only highlights that having that kind of separation is not ideal.
A true hybrid system (GW2, ESO, Wildstar, etc.) is much more preferable to the proposed (from what we know so far) seperate TT and Action system. I could be wrong and they just haven't shown us something yet that makes my points completely moot, but as of yet that is not the case.
Most people already know im a strong advocate for tab target.
Its a proven system that works well and most players enjoy.
There is a reason why pretty much every succesful mmorpg has been tab target.
Its also a system that most players can actually be good at, where as action combat requires alot of quick eye hand coordination, which drops as you get older.
I also find that action combat becomes extremly spammy and tedious fast, with the basic strategy only beeing to strafe around your enemy as much as possible while jamming the left mousebutton.
I know alot of players that have stoped playing more action combat based mmorpgs becouse they feel its to spammy and the gap differance between themselves and a top twich players is to big.
Action combat has its place, but its not in mmorpgs.
Im not a fan of dodgerolling either. I actually want to fight my enemies, not run around 75% of the time.
GW2 was awful at this, with whole raids rolling around all over the place..it just looked stupid.
Evade/Dodge should be chance based.
Also, im worried that "manually swinging weapons" thing will be a requirement to maximize dps, even for ranged. I dont want to see that you have to "weave" in spamming leftbutton in meele range while casting spells to do max damage.
Reading through many of comments in the topic im sad to see many of the advocates for action combat bring up FPS games like overwatch, small instance based games like Vindictus/Dauntless, or mobas.
Thats a HUGE concern. Please dont ever bring in elements from those kind of games, every mmorpg that has, have died within the first two months.
They have their place, its not in mmorgs. Unfortunally alot of the younger playerbase comes from those type of games and voice their opinions about wanting to add elements from them without actually knowing what they are doing.
All I can think about is how boring it’ll be if they copy GW2. It’s tab target with the option to use a fixed reticle instead of a cursor. The game still plays exactly the same just with you not having to hold your right mouse button to turn your camera. It is not hybrid, don’t let them tell you it’s hybrid, that would imply there is anything resembling action in the game and there isn’t.
We definitely need MORE in the way of combat than pressing up to 10 hot keys on your bar, one at a time. The only way to make a “hybrid” instead of just action and tab combat systems side by side (which would be the best way to please both crowds) is to introduce attack combos like I’ve said in previous posts. “Press 1 for fireball, 2 for lightning, 3 for drain essence, etc” is boring and gets old real quick. “Oh no I accidentally leashed a powerful mob, allow me to practice my counting skills by pressing 1,2,3,4,5 on my keyboard until it dies”. Such combat. Much fun. Wow.
Except it is actually by the very definition of a hybrid game a hybrid game. You're in these threads constantly talking about how GW2 is not what it is and that you hate it so much, it's pretty clear you just have some strange bias against it.
You're also acting like GW2 is literally just "stand there and rotate through abilities". It's not. Abilities in GW2 do more than just simple damage or effects, they combo with the rest of the classes kit in unique ways. A good portion of the combat is using abilities in reaction to things. Not to mention another good portion are movement options and various other utility. And finally nearly every ability lets you move while casting, which lets you play reactively while still playing proactively. It's not perfect, no. But Intrepid should use it as a baseline to improve upon.
A combo-string action combat system would not do well with the other systems that make AoC.
Also look how all of the comments before and after you are asking for something similar to if not directly stating GW2 combat.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7Qzn6r22W64&ab_channel=DreamyAbaddon
Lock Target, proceed to mash 1-5. This is worse with some classes than others. And mind you I've actually played multiple classes for myself, including my max level Elementalist which at least uses more skills but it's still a matter of mashing in many fights. Don't give me the BS of "but they combo" just because hitting 3 and then 2 adds an extra effect as opposed to 2 then 3. Or "nearly every ability lets you move while casting" yeah when exactly did I say you literally stand still in GW2? I've certainly said that about a lot of tab target games, but not GW2. But if I've used the common phrase "stand there doing x,y,z" in relation to GW2 at any point you could maybe use common sense that it's not literal in that context for that game. And just because you can walk side to side or backwards while playing 1-5 doesn't make it more engaging or equate to more action. And yes, since you're predictable I will point out that some classes have 1 or 2 abilities that include movement such as Ability 3 in the Elementalist kit when attuned to Fire. I've played the game. I know this.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=nO5Qz5rmPFs&ab_channel=Vergelxx
Much more fast-paced, visceral, fluid attacks, attack combo-strings instead of mashing 1,1,1,1 while your 2-5 keys are on cooldown, skills that change based on what direction you're moving. And somehow managing to still have the utility you're talking about. These abilities, contrary to what you might think, have stuns, slows, knockup, knockback, etc and your own kit has dodges, gap-closers, blocks, counters, etc.
And your claim of "A combo-string action combat system would not do well with the other systems that make AoC." is horse manure. There's no reason at all why the combat can't have attack combo strings. There is no system that would be broken by giving players more than spamming the basic attack in between 2-5 or 2-9. In fact, that could be the foundation and the player can choose to slap tabbed abilities (press 2-9, auto-lock no miss) or action abilities (either they're activated at the end of certain combos or they themselves are just activated by a key combo. Slightly more up your alley but not great would be to still have them on 2-9 but this would be on top of the action-packed basic attack combo strings.)
Sorry if you either can't understand it or are just out to argue no matter what but you seem to have an obsession with replying to me as much as I have one with pointing out how boring and slow and simple GW2 combat is, so either back up off me or I'm just going to ignore you if all you're going to do is argue for the sake of arguing. It's one thing to go back and forth in a proper debate but you're just here to play the "counter-everything without any actual substance" game. Huge portions of this recent reply of yours were talking about me and assuming things about me rather than actually making a real argument. Good day sir.
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ogreMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2021
I have yet to see an MMO pull off action combat that compares in responsiveness and “readability” to the simple tab/aiming circle combat that MMOs like ffxiv/WoW/gw1 use. By readability I mean the ability to keep track of what’s happening in a fight, manage your target selection etc. especially when many targets are present. The combat still manages to feel action packed in those games while still presenting a very clear picture of what’s happening, many classes have additional movement skills in tab-target games which also tends to help with that “action” feeling. In my experience hack and slash type combat tends to become very messy visually and mechanically quite quickly.
I’m interested to try whatever’s kind of hybrid combat intrepid is working on. Worst case we get some new ideas as to what works and feels good and what doesn’t. I really hope that the approach to the combat system design is scrapping/redesigning failed concepts completely rather than attempting to build on a broken foundation. If there’s one thing that makes or breaks an MMO it’s the general feeling of the combat and other extremely common tasks that players do.
I’ll definitely be starting with Tab targeting myself but will 100% give the action stuff a try.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7Qzn6r22W64&ab_channel=DreamyAbaddon
Lock Target, proceed to mash 1-5. This is worse with some classes than others. And mind you I've actually played multiple classes for myself, including my max level Elementalist which at least uses more skills but it's still a matter of mashing in many fights. Don't give me the BS of "but they combo" just because hitting 3 and then 2 adds an extra effect as opposed to 2 then 3. Or "nearly every ability lets you move while casting" yeah when exactly did I say you literally stand still in GW2? I've certainly said that about a lot of tab target games, but not GW2. But if I've used the common phrase "stand there doing x,y,z" in relation to GW2 at any point you could maybe use common sense that it's not literal in that context for that game. And just because you can walk side to side or backwards while playing 1-5 doesn't make it more engaging or equate to more action. And yes, since you're predictable I will point out that some classes have 1 or 2 abilities that include movement such as Ability 3 in the Elementalist kit when attuned to Fire. I've played the game. I know this.
Your response was to link a video showing people attacking 1 trash mob? I could easilly link a combat video from any game and it will look the exact same.
You're also acting like a combo-string action combat game won't be the exact same thing, just without a hotbar. An action combat grappler character is going to do his optimal moves just as an action combat ranger is too. Grappler will punch punch grab suplex every time if that's what's optimal, and a ranger will shoot shoot send pet shoot rain of arrows every time if that's what's optimal. That's what happens in Tera, that's what happens in BDO that's what happens in every MMO and nearly every single game.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=nO5Qz5rmPFs&ab_channel=Vergelxx
Much more fast-paced, visceral, fluid attacks, attack combo-strings instead of mashing 1,1,1,1 while your 2-5 keys are on cooldown, skills that change based on what direction you're moving. And somehow managing to still have the utility you're talking about. These abilities, contrary to what you might think, have stuns, slows, knockup, knockback, etc and your own kit has dodges, gap-closers, blocks, counters, etc.
See, I said before somewhere in this thread or another thread that action combat is either small-fight or dynasty warriors type fights. BDO is absolutely in that dynasty warriors category of "Here's a bunch of enemies that feel like they're made of paper, now slice them up a thousand times until they die." I'm sorry but beating even a thousand frail enemies is not fun.
Flashy yes, but not fun, which I know is just my opinion so you can take that with a grain of salt. Though it's in the same mindset the people complaining about the tank ability preview and how the animations felt weightless.
And I reply to many people, I've just been replying to you a lot recently because you've been posting a sentiment I disagree with repeatedly.
This I understand completely, it's very satisfying to see yourself become a dodge-tank and such as your dodge % climbs higher and higher, however I personally feel it is way too far in the "no skill" side of the spectrum. It's satisfying to have the dodge %, but absolutely not to play against it. It's more fun to time dodges (I-frames or not) to bosses/players or bait out dodges from other players.
TT is definitely more spammy than AC. At least in AC, you have to aim or else you'll completely miss the target and waste the cooldown. Since there is no aim in TT, the only consequence for spamming is getting "Ability is currently on cooldown" message. In fact, the optimal way to play TT is to spam as fast as you can in order to perform the skill as close to the cooldown as possible.
Preface: should = in my opinion/ I would like to see this be implemented.
I thoroughly enjoy having a dodge skill in games. I believe I read an official post regarding dodge and how it went fairly unutilized in apoc and how they're leaning more towards specific classes having the ability to unlock dodge as a skill. I'm all for this. Heck, I'd go one further and say the type of armor you're wearing should also determine if you're capable of dodging / how efficient you are at dodging(unless you pick up a passive allowing you to bypass this restriction). Unless a mage type has a melee secondary, they should not be rolling around (or at least they shouldn't be very good at it). They are a mental discipline, not a physical one. The armor should limit the tank, requiring a passive to remove the restriction while maintaining their supreme tankiness. Though, it should be capped at a lower level of efficiency than say a fighter, rogue, or ranger.
This dodge skill should have a respectable cooldown, or maybe a 2-3 time use with stacking cooldowns. It should also have a limited i-frame so that timing becomes learnable, and significant.
I also somewhat agree with having a natural evasion chance that can be improved upon. There are more ways to evade than an involved dodge roll after all. Though, as previously stated, having an enemy rng evade your ultimate is certainly frustrating. So, if passive evasion exists, there should be an array of non evadeables accessible to all/most classes following the same risk vs reward ideology that IS maintains.
Preface: should = in my opinion/ I would like to see this be implemented.
I thoroughly enjoy having a dodge skill in games. I believe I read an official post regarding dodge and how it went fairly unutilized in apoc and how they're leaning more towards specific classes having the ability to unlock dodge as a skill. I'm all for this. Heck, I'd go one further and say the type of armor you're wearing should also determine if you're capable of dodging / how efficient you are at dodging(unless you pick up a passive allowing you to bypass this restriction). Unless a mage type has a melee secondary, they should not be rolling around (or at least they shouldn't be very good at it). They are a mental discipline, not a physical one. The armor should limit the tank, requiring a passive to remove the restriction while maintaining their supreme tankiness. Though, it should be capped at a lower level of efficiency than say a fighter, rogue, or ranger.
This dodge skill should have a respectable cooldown, or maybe a 2-3 time use with stacking cooldowns. It should also have a limited i-frame so that timing becomes learnable, and significant.
I also somewhat agree with having a natural evasion chance that can be improved upon. There are more ways to evade than an involved dodge roll after all. Though, as previously stated, having an enemy rng evade your ultimate is certainly frustrating. So, if passive evasion exists, there should be an array of non evadeables accessible to all/most classes following the same risk vs reward ideology that IS maintains.
What if it was like Phantasy Star online, where everyone has a dodge, but the dodges just had flavour depending on the class? Melee classes had dodge rolls/side steps/etc., while the Force/Tech classes (Mage equivelant) had a "fade out of existence towards a direction" kind of thing. The I-frames were the same, it just looked different and fitting for the class.
I bring this up because I've seen the sentiment you're describing many times about mages not being the kind of fantasy character to be nimble enough to "roll", but there are ways around that.
Edit: Just remembered it's actually the weapon that gives the specialized dodge in PSO2, not the class, though it's pretty much the same thing since classes are made for certain weapons. Also I was wrong about the dodges being the same mechanically in PSO2, but that doesn't mean they can't be in AoC
What if it was like Phantasy Star online, where everyone has a dodge, but the dodges just had flavour depending on the class? Melee classes had dodge rolls/side steps/etc., while the Force/Tech classes (Mage equivelant) had a "fade out of existence towards a direction" kind of thing. The I-frames were the same, it just looked different and fitting for the class.
I bring this up because I've seen the sentiment you're describing many times about mages not being the kind of fantasy character to be nimble enough to "roll", but there are ways around that.
Fair enough.
I could see some sort of magical propulsion for the mage, but since there is no teleportation outside of a maxed out scientific node, I don't believe even a short blip like this would track.
What if it was like Phantasy Star online, where everyone has a dodge, but the dodges just had flavour depending on the class? Melee classes had dodge rolls/side steps/etc., while the Force/Tech classes (Mage equivelant) had a "fade out of existence towards a direction" kind of thing. The I-frames were the same, it just looked different and fitting for the class.
I bring this up because I've seen the sentiment you're describing many times about mages not being the kind of fantasy character to be nimble enough to "roll", but there are ways around that.
Fair enough.
I could see some sort of magical propulsion for the mage, but since there is no teleportation outside of a maxed out scientific node, I don't believe even a short blip like this would track.
Well there's already a teleport spell for mages. They have a short range blink spell before level 10. You can see it in any of the mage gameplay shown so far, or or in this part of the mage alpha one preview.
A slightly smaller 5ft fade-in fade-out blink wouldn't be unheard of.
Your response was to link a video showing people attacking 1 trash mob? I could easilly link a combat video from any game and it will look the exact same.
The purpose of the video was a class skills showcase. Demonstrating all skills of all classes. It's also not a "trash mob" but it is a relatively simple and easy named mob/mini-boss. You know all of this, but you're too consumed with trying to be right and trying desperately to counter everything I say to have an honest response. To use one of your own terms, that's pretty disingenuous of you to purposely ignore the purpose and intent of the video.
You're also acting like a combo-string action combat game won't be the exact same thing, just without a hotbar. An action combat grappler character is going to do his optimal moves just as an action combat ranger is too. Grappler will punch punch grab suplex every time if that's what's optimal, and a ranger will shoot shoot send pet shoot rain of arrows every time if that's what's optimal. That's what happens in Tera, that's what happens in BDO that's what happens in every MMO and nearly every single game.
If you think people will always use the most efficient combination of abilities/attacks, which is mostly true, then why not advocate for the more fun system? You provided no argument against action combat, just pointed out that gamers will be gamers and that you essentially prefer to optimize a hot bar over actual combat strings. One involves keeping everything on cooldown by pressing a few buttons, the other involves immersion and feeling your character in the action and forgetting you're even pressing buttons. If you truly believe that optimized hot bar sequences are more fun than optimized attack combos then you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but you're in the minority. All you have to say is"I just don't like action combat, I like my hot bar and I like mashing only a few keys and not missing my target" just be honest and we can be done here. I don't have anything to say back to that because you can have your opinion but what you can't do is say nonsensical things like "it wouldn't work" like you've tried to do multiple times without any evidence of why.
See, I said before somewhere in this thread or another thread that action combat is either small-fight or dynasty warriors type fights. BDO is absolutely in that dynasty warriors category of "Here's a bunch of enemies that feel like they're made of paper, now slice them up a thousand times until they die." I'm sorry but beating even a thousand frail enemies is not fun.
Flashy yes, but not fun, which I know is just my opinion so you can take that with a grain of salt.
Something I've been completely open about when bringing up Black Desert as an example of how the combat should be is that BDO overall is not a good game. It has a great combat system, but there is no meaningful PvE to use it on. As for the PvP, when you have even fights (similar level and similar gear) the PvP is incredibly fun. And to a degree, the PvE is even sort of fun at times just because of how good the combat feels. Gets really old having bad AI and bad leashes and no real AI attacks that are meaningful. This second video you saw here was again to demonstrate the combat mechanics themselves not to concern yourself with the mobs.
Your response was to link a video showing people attacking 1 trash mob? I could easilly link a combat video from any game and it will look the exact same.
The purpose of the video was a class skills showcase. Demonstrating all skills of all classes. It's also not a "trash mob" but it is a relatively simple and easy named mob/mini-boss. You know all of this, but you're too consumed with trying to be right and trying desperately to counter everything I say to have an honest response. To use one of your own terms, that's pretty disingenuous of you to purposely ignore the purpose and intent of the video.
Your response to me saying the abilities were unique and had a lot of utility and comboed with each other and their class was to link stale combat against a basic strong enemy and you say I'm being disingenuous.
You're also acting like a combo-string action combat game won't be the exact same thing, just without a hotbar. An action combat grappler character is going to do his optimal moves just as an action combat ranger is too. Grappler will punch punch grab suplex every time if that's what's optimal, and a ranger will shoot shoot send pet shoot rain of arrows every time if that's what's optimal. That's what happens in Tera, that's what happens in BDO that's what happens in every MMO and nearly every single game.
If you think people will always use the most efficient combination of abilities/attacks, which is mostly true, then why not advocate for the more fun system? You provided no argument against action combat, just pointed out that gamers will be gamers and that you essentially prefer to optimize a hot bar over actual combat strings. One involves keeping everything on cooldown by pressing a few buttons, the other involves immersion and feeling your character in the action and forgetting you're even pressing buttons. If you truly believe that optimized hot bar sequences are more fun than optimized attack combos then you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but you're in the minority. All you have to say is"I just don't like action combat, I like my hot bar and I like mashing only a few keys and not missing my target" just be honest and we can be done here. I don't have anything to say back to that because you can have your opinion but what you can't do is say nonsensical things like "it wouldn't work" like you've tried to do multiple times without any evidence of why.
I said that in response to you complaining about hotbar combat being repeating the same combo repeatedly. Yes I provided no argument against action combat, because that wasn't my intention. I was just showing you how hypocritical you were being.
See, I said before somewhere in this thread or another thread that action combat is either small-fight or dynasty warriors type fights. BDO is absolutely in that dynasty warriors category of "Here's a bunch of enemies that feel like they're made of paper, now slice them up a thousand times until they die." I'm sorry but beating even a thousand frail enemies is not fun.
Flashy yes, but not fun, which I know is just my opinion so you can take that with a grain of salt.
Something I've been completely open about when bringing up Black Desert as an example of how the combat should be is that BDO overall is not a good game. It has a great combat system, but there is no meaningful PvE to use it on. As for the PvP, when you have even fights (similar level and similar gear) the PvP is incredibly fun. And to a degree, the PvE is even sort of fun at times just because of how good the combat feels. Gets really old having bad AI and bad leashes and no real AI attacks that are meaningful. This second video you saw here was again to demonstrate the combat mechanics themselves not to concern yourself with the mobs.
How would you envision a 40 man raid going with BDO combat? Even if it was catered to more small battle scenarios it'd be hard to get that right. I'm not saying it's impossible, it would just require an amount of precise balance and creativity that would pull dev time and resources away from other things.
I don't think action combat can't work, I just think it requires a lot more thought and balance. The main thing I disagree with you on is how much you think hybrid combat, ESO Wildstar and yes GW2 combat, is outright bad.
Comments
Personally i wish there would be an mmorpg with a combat system like For Honor, i love that combat, cause it is really intresting and if you are good you can be good. But i dont see how this could work in an mmorpg. Wow for example is a bit boring, cause you learn your rotation and just do that.
Well i am intrested in what you will create. Just have fun :-)
We definitely need MORE in the way of combat than pressing up to 10 hot keys on your bar, one at a time. The only way to make a “hybrid” instead of just action and tab combat systems side by side (which would be the best way to please both crowds) is to introduce attack combos like I’ve said in previous posts. “Press 1 for fireball, 2 for lightning, 3 for drain essence, etc” is boring and gets old real quick. “Oh no I accidentally leashed a powerful mob, allow me to practice my counting skills by pressing 1,2,3,4,5 on my keyboard until it dies”. Such combat. Much fun. Wow.
some special abilities with action combat mode would be okay. think that 1-3 skills with an action system should be sufficient, for example for skills that do high damage ..
my opinion or desire for ashes of creation
I'm really looking forward to the beta test and especially to the publication
Greetings from Germany
The other important thing for me would be that I can easily swap between targets without using mouse.
With tab system I would like it to highlight add even trough ads, and walls, cast able trough ads but not walls. so you can tab-target a add to chain it in even if boss blocks vision.
K.I.S.S. and make it work
I really think the combat system should be built up from the ground while thinking how each ability fit into the world of Verra.
Except it is actually by the very definition of a hybrid game a hybrid game. You're in these threads constantly talking about how GW2 is not what it is and that you hate it so much, it's pretty clear you just have some strange bias against it.
You're also acting like GW2 is literally just "stand there and rotate through abilities". It's not. Abilities in GW2 do more than just simple damage or effects, they combo with the rest of the classes kit in unique ways. A good portion of the combat is using abilities in reaction to things. Not to mention another good portion are movement options and various other utility. And finally nearly every ability lets you move while casting, which lets you play reactively while still playing proactively. It's not perfect, no. But Intrepid should use it as a baseline to improve upon.
A combo-string action combat system would not do well with the other systems that make AoC.
Also look how all of the comments before and after you are asking for something similar to if not directly stating GW2 combat.
First blur the lines with Tab and Action mode have a crosair displayed at all times when aiming on a target you select your target for tab target mode. You should be able to use your skills regardless of what type it is Tab or Action with out switching modes.
You need to be able to move when casting for all of your skills as soon as you lock down you character for using a skill it feels BAD.
Casting times for action combat skills dont work well and needs to be instant cast or it will feel slow and punishing. Also AC needs to have higher DPS then TT or AC will be redundant and nobody will use it.
CC`s should always be AC skills reward skill not a big tab button.
Also i think combos is something that will need to work as mention earlier in this thread pressing number keys gets old fast and wont feel like action combat.
Also i see a lot of comments saying it should be like in this game or not like that game, intrepid need to come up with there own spin on this system or nobody will be relay happy. But I have to say it BDO have a great combat\ combo system. Also another one that i remember had a GREAT and fun combat system was Dragons Prophet.
That is the key aspects i can think of now, i will be sure to add more if i can think of it.
To put my foot in the race am all in action combat and it make or break the game for me.
Tab target will feel like a 15 year old game.
Action can have that same strategic chess match feel in a good implementation of it. But tab target guarantees it.
All I can really say right now is that I'm going to spec my character in whatever way is most viable for pvp. I can also say that if the game resembles anything like BDO with a bunch of crackbunnies magically gangbanging each other with shit bouncing around flying all over the place, I will likely quit, like I did with BDO.
If the third-person character controller works like Genshin Impact (free rotation), I will use as many action skills as possible.
Strafing is only suitable for shooters.
There's not a single guild worth its weight that won't force its players to utilize the highest DPS/HPS abilities. This is going to be determined by reliably just as much as actual numbers.
In my opinion, Ashes of Creation should focus on one combat ruleset. Archeage was tab target with a couple of aimed skills thrown in but it had one focus and was one of the best tab target combat systems (but also an example where those few skills hardly ever were taken). ESO is more action-oriented but its soft locking and smart healing system make it easier to pick up and understand. It also offers one of the most fun combat. On the other end, BDO is probably the most skillful action system on the market but it is so well polished and fluid it feels like an arcade fighting game. Therefore, no matter where Ashes falls on this combat spectrum, it can be fun but it needs a defined ruleset. If the idea is we will be able to switch between one ruleset or the other, then the META will decide the path players choose Although that's not inherently bad on its own, I worry how much fun/polished it will be with the devs splitting their attention/resources unnecessarily.
This is why I mentioned before on the previous page of this thread that the "at least 25% of either" rule is actually just an arbitrary band-aid fix that sounds good on an inherently flawed proposal. If anything the restriction only highlights that having that kind of separation is not ideal.
A true hybrid system (GW2, ESO, Wildstar, etc.) is much more preferable to the proposed (from what we know so far) seperate TT and Action system. I could be wrong and they just haven't shown us something yet that makes my points completely moot, but as of yet that is not the case.
Its a proven system that works well and most players enjoy.
There is a reason why pretty much every succesful mmorpg has been tab target.
Its also a system that most players can actually be good at, where as action combat requires alot of quick eye hand coordination, which drops as you get older.
I also find that action combat becomes extremly spammy and tedious fast, with the basic strategy only beeing to strafe around your enemy as much as possible while jamming the left mousebutton.
I know alot of players that have stoped playing more action combat based mmorpgs becouse they feel its to spammy and the gap differance between themselves and a top twich players is to big.
Action combat has its place, but its not in mmorpgs.
Im not a fan of dodgerolling either. I actually want to fight my enemies, not run around 75% of the time.
GW2 was awful at this, with whole raids rolling around all over the place..it just looked stupid.
Evade/Dodge should be chance based.
Also, im worried that "manually swinging weapons" thing will be a requirement to maximize dps, even for ranged. I dont want to see that you have to "weave" in spamming leftbutton in meele range while casting spells to do max damage.
Reading through many of comments in the topic im sad to see many of the advocates for action combat bring up FPS games like overwatch, small instance based games like Vindictus/Dauntless, or mobas.
Thats a HUGE concern. Please dont ever bring in elements from those kind of games, every mmorpg that has, have died within the first two months.
They have their place, its not in mmorgs. Unfortunally alot of the younger playerbase comes from those type of games and voice their opinions about wanting to add elements from them without actually knowing what they are doing.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7Qzn6r22W64&ab_channel=DreamyAbaddon
Lock Target, proceed to mash 1-5. This is worse with some classes than others. And mind you I've actually played multiple classes for myself, including my max level Elementalist which at least uses more skills but it's still a matter of mashing in many fights. Don't give me the BS of "but they combo" just because hitting 3 and then 2 adds an extra effect as opposed to 2 then 3. Or "nearly every ability lets you move while casting" yeah when exactly did I say you literally stand still in GW2? I've certainly said that about a lot of tab target games, but not GW2. But if I've used the common phrase "stand there doing x,y,z" in relation to GW2 at any point you could maybe use common sense that it's not literal in that context for that game. And just because you can walk side to side or backwards while playing 1-5 doesn't make it more engaging or equate to more action. And yes, since you're predictable I will point out that some classes have 1 or 2 abilities that include movement such as Ability 3 in the Elementalist kit when attuned to Fire. I've played the game. I know this.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=nO5Qz5rmPFs&ab_channel=Vergelxx
Much more fast-paced, visceral, fluid attacks, attack combo-strings instead of mashing 1,1,1,1 while your 2-5 keys are on cooldown, skills that change based on what direction you're moving. And somehow managing to still have the utility you're talking about. These abilities, contrary to what you might think, have stuns, slows, knockup, knockback, etc and your own kit has dodges, gap-closers, blocks, counters, etc.
And your claim of "A combo-string action combat system would not do well with the other systems that make AoC." is horse manure. There's no reason at all why the combat can't have attack combo strings. There is no system that would be broken by giving players more than spamming the basic attack in between 2-5 or 2-9. In fact, that could be the foundation and the player can choose to slap tabbed abilities (press 2-9, auto-lock no miss) or action abilities (either they're activated at the end of certain combos or they themselves are just activated by a key combo. Slightly more up your alley but not great would be to still have them on 2-9 but this would be on top of the action-packed basic attack combo strings.)
Sorry if you either can't understand it or are just out to argue no matter what but you seem to have an obsession with replying to me as much as I have one with pointing out how boring and slow and simple GW2 combat is, so either back up off me or I'm just going to ignore you if all you're going to do is argue for the sake of arguing. It's one thing to go back and forth in a proper debate but you're just here to play the "counter-everything without any actual substance" game. Huge portions of this recent reply of yours were talking about me and assuming things about me rather than actually making a real argument. Good day sir.
I’m interested to try whatever’s kind of hybrid combat intrepid is working on. Worst case we get some new ideas as to what works and feels good and what doesn’t. I really hope that the approach to the combat system design is scrapping/redesigning failed concepts completely rather than attempting to build on a broken foundation. If there’s one thing that makes or breaks an MMO it’s the general feeling of the combat and other extremely common tasks that players do.
I’ll definitely be starting with Tab targeting myself but will 100% give the action stuff a try.
Your response was to link a video showing people attacking 1 trash mob? I could easilly link a combat video from any game and it will look the exact same.
You're also acting like a combo-string action combat game won't be the exact same thing, just without a hotbar. An action combat grappler character is going to do his optimal moves just as an action combat ranger is too. Grappler will punch punch grab suplex every time if that's what's optimal, and a ranger will shoot shoot send pet shoot rain of arrows every time if that's what's optimal. That's what happens in Tera, that's what happens in BDO that's what happens in every MMO and nearly every single game.
See, I said before somewhere in this thread or another thread that action combat is either small-fight or dynasty warriors type fights. BDO is absolutely in that dynasty warriors category of "Here's a bunch of enemies that feel like they're made of paper, now slice them up a thousand times until they die." I'm sorry but beating even a thousand frail enemies is not fun.
Flashy yes, but not fun, which I know is just my opinion so you can take that with a grain of salt. Though it's in the same mindset the people complaining about the tank ability preview and how the animations felt weightless.
And I reply to many people, I've just been replying to you a lot recently because you've been posting a sentiment I disagree with repeatedly.
This I understand completely, it's very satisfying to see yourself become a dodge-tank and such as your dodge % climbs higher and higher, however I personally feel it is way too far in the "no skill" side of the spectrum. It's satisfying to have the dodge %, but absolutely not to play against it. It's more fun to time dodges (I-frames or not) to bosses/players or bait out dodges from other players.
I thoroughly enjoy having a dodge skill in games. I believe I read an official post regarding dodge and how it went fairly unutilized in apoc and how they're leaning more towards specific classes having the ability to unlock dodge as a skill. I'm all for this. Heck, I'd go one further and say the type of armor you're wearing should also determine if you're capable of dodging / how efficient you are at dodging(unless you pick up a passive allowing you to bypass this restriction). Unless a mage type has a melee secondary, they should not be rolling around (or at least they shouldn't be very good at it). They are a mental discipline, not a physical one. The armor should limit the tank, requiring a passive to remove the restriction while maintaining their supreme tankiness. Though, it should be capped at a lower level of efficiency than say a fighter, rogue, or ranger.
This dodge skill should have a respectable cooldown, or maybe a 2-3 time use with stacking cooldowns. It should also have a limited i-frame so that timing becomes learnable, and significant.
I also somewhat agree with having a natural evasion chance that can be improved upon. There are more ways to evade than an involved dodge roll after all. Though, as previously stated, having an enemy rng evade your ultimate is certainly frustrating. So, if passive evasion exists, there should be an array of non evadeables accessible to all/most classes following the same risk vs reward ideology that IS maintains.
What if it was like Phantasy Star online, where everyone has a dodge, but the dodges just had flavour depending on the class? Melee classes had dodge rolls/side steps/etc., while the Force/Tech classes (Mage equivelant) had a "fade out of existence towards a direction" kind of thing. The I-frames were the same, it just looked different and fitting for the class.
I bring this up because I've seen the sentiment you're describing many times about mages not being the kind of fantasy character to be nimble enough to "roll", but there are ways around that.
Edit: Just remembered it's actually the weapon that gives the specialized dodge in PSO2, not the class, though it's pretty much the same thing since classes are made for certain weapons. Also I was wrong about the dodges being the same mechanically in PSO2, but that doesn't mean they can't be in AoC
Fair enough.
I could see some sort of magical propulsion for the mage, but since there is no teleportation outside of a maxed out scientific node, I don't believe even a short blip like this would track.
Well there's already a teleport spell for mages. They have a short range blink spell before level 10. You can see it in any of the mage gameplay shown so far, or or in this part of the mage alpha one preview.
A slightly smaller 5ft fade-in fade-out blink wouldn't be unheard of.
The purpose of the video was a class skills showcase. Demonstrating all skills of all classes. It's also not a "trash mob" but it is a relatively simple and easy named mob/mini-boss. You know all of this, but you're too consumed with trying to be right and trying desperately to counter everything I say to have an honest response. To use one of your own terms, that's pretty disingenuous of you to purposely ignore the purpose and intent of the video.
If you think people will always use the most efficient combination of abilities/attacks, which is mostly true, then why not advocate for the more fun system? You provided no argument against action combat, just pointed out that gamers will be gamers and that you essentially prefer to optimize a hot bar over actual combat strings. One involves keeping everything on cooldown by pressing a few buttons, the other involves immersion and feeling your character in the action and forgetting you're even pressing buttons. If you truly believe that optimized hot bar sequences are more fun than optimized attack combos then you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but you're in the minority. All you have to say is"I just don't like action combat, I like my hot bar and I like mashing only a few keys and not missing my target" just be honest and we can be done here. I don't have anything to say back to that because you can have your opinion but what you can't do is say nonsensical things like "it wouldn't work" like you've tried to do multiple times without any evidence of why.
Something I've been completely open about when bringing up Black Desert as an example of how the combat should be is that BDO overall is not a good game. It has a great combat system, but there is no meaningful PvE to use it on. As for the PvP, when you have even fights (similar level and similar gear) the PvP is incredibly fun. And to a degree, the PvE is even sort of fun at times just because of how good the combat feels. Gets really old having bad AI and bad leashes and no real AI attacks that are meaningful. This second video you saw here was again to demonstrate the combat mechanics themselves not to concern yourself with the mobs.
Your response to me saying the abilities were unique and had a lot of utility and comboed with each other and their class was to link stale combat against a basic strong enemy and you say I'm being disingenuous.
I said that in response to you complaining about hotbar combat being repeating the same combo repeatedly. Yes I provided no argument against action combat, because that wasn't my intention. I was just showing you how hypocritical you were being.
How would you envision a 40 man raid going with BDO combat? Even if it was catered to more small battle scenarios it'd be hard to get that right. I'm not saying it's impossible, it would just require an amount of precise balance and creativity that would pull dev time and resources away from other things.
I don't think action combat can't work, I just think it requires a lot more thought and balance. The main thing I disagree with you on is how much you think hybrid combat, ESO Wildstar and yes GW2 combat, is outright bad.