Dev Discussion #28 - Hybrid Combat

Dreoh

Cypher wrote: »

Barque wrote: »

Tab here. There's enough going on in the heat of battle already. Having to precisely place an aiming pip isn't on the list of things I want to do.

For enemy targeting, dealing with pip targeting the smallest game model possible while they're jumping non-stop is just silly and frustrating. Positioning should have a place in skillful and strategic combat without turning it into a child's console game. Tab targeting/target locking helps facilitate that.

Phew right, standing still and watching cooldowns while you and 500 other people auto-target a boss until it finally runs out of health is exhilarating. Lol

Precisely aiming a reticle is not what action combat is all about. In BDO, the reticle is useful in some instances sure, but in many cases you use skills that have a wide arc or AOE. And for melee classes it’s literally just pointing out the center of your attacks and you absolutely can turn the reticle off because it’s not needed. In Vindictus there isn’t even a reticle at all. Both games have very fun, *fluid*, exciting and immersive combat systems that are truly action.

And yet in neither game does your notion of “dealing with pip targeting the smallest game model possible when they’re jumping nonstop” exist. But as long as my action combat is in the game the way I’d like, I want you to have the ability to tab target so you can enjoy the game your way as well. Both can exist side by side with a bit stronger damage and possibly more potent effects as a reward for aimed skills.

Except AoC is not BDO or Vindictus. It has wide open maps with 250v250 player pvp. It has many ranged classes. In fact, it has 8 ranger classes which presumably specialize in bows, and many caster classes. His comment about hitting someone far away is more likely than not.

Action combat fits in two categories. A small-fight scenario system, or a Dynasty Warriors "We hit whole squads with all of our attacks" kind of system. Small-fight works for BDO and Vindictus, but not for a game with 250v250 like AoC. And it may be my personal opinion, but Dynasty Warriors combat is not fun nor rewarding, especially not in a pvp scenario.

It's also very disingenuous and a bad faith argument to dismiss his opinions by exaggerating them in such a way. Anyone can say "Phew right, just pointing your camera and mashing all your buttons while you and 30 other people do the same until the boss runs out of health is exhilarating" just as you did.

maouw

I will be majority action.

Skills that work better with action combat:

• Melee strikes/swings
• Placeable skills (like the gravity ball, traps - abilities for zoning enemies)
• Skillshots and Projectiles
• AoE abilities

Skills I prefer for tab target:

• Healing
• Spells that require you to select specific targets
• Single target spells/homing spells
• Persistent effect spells

For ranged weapons, I prefer a mixture of both: tab target to make short work of mundane enemies, and action combat for skills with bigger pay-offs.

Roogini

I like action based combat makes it feel like your doing something when doing healz I love the satisfaction when you predict when people will be where and aim perfectly with some nice healing abilitys Can't wait to see how bard plays for some fun Musical buffs/healing
just a little bit of TT for some quick needed spells/abilitys on allies able to die but love the action based combat

Virulent

Tab as much as possible. I would prefer if the game was fully tab.

There is too much going on, in a chaotic environment to be able to visually identify a target or have the right camera view to aim at another player or point on the ground. When there are many skill effects, player movement, and things going on like. When one is in a position of battle field management, needing to see what all the enemy forces are doing and to coordinate with groups of players and maneuver in a fight, action combat becomes much too difficult to use effectively. Quality and well functioning tab targeting, with the ability to point at an area and have snap-to target lock, is far superior. There simply isn't enough time, in a busy multitask situation, to focus so much much on action skill shots. Only a small portion of the actual fight will be using your skills, PvP or PvE, positioning, communicating, navigating are all happening at the same time. And we need to be able to *target* players or an area for AoE skills, and then be able to press our skill buttons, while then not camera aiming at focusing on only this one player/mob/area.

For a game with very few players occupying a space, like MOBA or team PvP arena settings, action based skills and abilities can work very well. It "worked" in APOC, as you were only engaging 1-3 players at the same time. When there are hundreds of players in the same area, action combat systems become very unwieldy.

We need to be able to have a hot key where we can all target squad/raid marked target. Having to look through hundreds of players to identify one to target, is a mess, like a needle in a haystack and won't be very fun.

If I wanted to play a "aiming ability" skill mini game, to engage a target, there are plenty of twitchy "aiming ability" games that exist. It isn't fun, and it isn't really skilled. Skill is knowing when to use which ability. Skill is knowing what your opponent might do. Skill is countering the abilities your opponent uses. Skill is knowing the game mechanics. Skill is positioning. Skill -is not- pixel aiming a cursor better then someone else, which is very subject to server latency. Skill is having your target selected and managing your resources, layering your abilities.

I don't like locking certain skills or abilities to only one type of combat. action vs tab. Some people struggle with action combat, and it isn't really a test of skill or how good of a player they are, if they are best at the game or know it better. Losing because your hands aren't as coordinated, because your mouse didn't track as well as the other person, because you couldn't see the other player through graphics effects, this isn't fun. Skill isn't button mashing in an arcade mortal combat style fight. It's not as strategic. Action won't work with 500vs500. If Ashes is majority action combat, I'll have to skip out on PvP and fighting in the game as much as I'd like to and just be a roaming nomad exploring the lands.

Eriy

I will be 100% action. Or as much as possible...
I hope that while beeing in the action combat not beeing forced to switch into action for some spells. but just beeing able to hover a target and lockon it. then cast the spell.

In my oppinion the tab target combat is old and boring. make you feel like just pressing keys and click people.
Action on the other side is more agile and more dinamic. It gives you more freedom and is more enjoyable.

JamesSunderland

I will go for whatever the meta is, i will take the strongest skills from both tab and action whatever offers the best option in terms of power, utility, control and that fits my playstyle, as i'm very well found of both combat systems choosing to prioritize one specifically is unreasonable for me unless one proves unquestinable advantage over the other, but if a skills does and accomplishes pretty much the same as tab or as action, i will prioritize the convenience of Tab to have more freedom to focus on other aspects of the combat.

Erdun

Both

But action definitely in pvp.

bigepeen

75% action, 25% tab. This is the percentage of total abilities used in ideal gameplay from my perspective, not necessarily the percentage of the total number of available skills.

I prefer mechanical skill (eg aiming) being a factor in DPS output. So, for basic attacks and bread-and-butter DPS attacks, I will use almost exclusively hit-scan for maximum potential DPS. If tab ends up being better for raw DPS in practice, then I will switch to that, but I probably won't enjoy it as much as if combat rewarded precision.

Since CC abilities and certain other abilities are too important to whiff on, I will prefer to use tab for those. Exceptions to this would be if there's AoE CC abilities, like maybe a huge net for example with fast "bullet drop". If the net area of effect is large enough, and the opponent is close enough that I don't think I'll miss, then I'll use that action ability. I probably will stay away from CC hitscan abilities, because it will frustrate me if I don't hit it due to lag, or if I just mess up a crucial shot with a long cooldown.

I'd like to see abilities that reward not only good aim, but good decision making. Any abilities like walls, or a way to manipulate the environment, would be amazing. Being able to disrupt aim by cleverly placing obstacles would lead to interesting gameplay that rewards primarily smart decision making over raw mechanical skill.

Here's a hypothetical breakdown of ideal combat for me:

• Lead with an action hitscan ability that does high damage with a long cooldown.
• Use a tab ability to CC enemy.
• Fire an action hitscan ability a few times to deal damage while enemy is CCed.
• Use a tab or action ability to place an object in between me and the enemy, to prevent enemy from CCing me in return.
• Use more tab or action abilities to gain a positional advantage or set up a trap.
• Fire action hitscan abilities once in position to damage enemy.
• Use defensive tab abilities if the enemy nullifies positional advantage.

That's kind of the general flow of combat that I'd like to see. Combat that doesn't just focus on spamming either tab or action abilities for maximum dps, but instead rewards creative play and decision making, while still rewarding mechanical precision.

Malevolence

I would prefer Action Base combat.... someone who always love healing, I want it to feel as if it takes skill instead of playing a game of wack-a-mole while tab targeting, strategically placing ground targets, aiming or a lock-on feature for Heals Over Time, or Direct Heals on multiple targets. Though I feel Fluidity>Skill/AimBased>engagement is the most important factors

allusir

I will probably lean more toward tab targeting, but there may be some skills that are better as action skills.

Tab targeting all the way for healing. I don't want to have to aim heals at highly mobile characters and waste half my mana by missing. If AoE's are ground target like GW2, I'd take some of those... but nothing I have to aim like a shooter game.

Action skills will probably fit movement skills. Don't want a runaway skill to require a target. Sometimes there isn't a target, it's a falling rock you want to teleport away from.

Not sure exactly how summoner will work, so no idea if I'll want tab or action targeting for those.

Frosty_Thundertrod

For me action combat just does not work my reflexes are to slow and I have a hard time judging distance in 3d rendered space. so for me I have to use tab targit or just pound my head into a wall of frustration.

Caeryl

I’m going as much action as possible. Tab target combat is dull as a brick, takes most the skill out of combat, and lacks meaningful counterplay. It’s a lame stat check system where you know how the fight’s gonna end one rotation in.

Thankfully it’s seemed like the devs are wise enough not to put any point and click cc in the game, and hopefully we’ll get an actual system to counter point and click burst zergs.

Davishun

Hello everyone, well I play mmo since 2009, I have experience both of combat system and I think Majority tab-based skills are we need BUT the action combat auto attack is suit for well for a tab target system.
Because When you have action bar, with Spells/ability's that good looking view, and easy to balance, personally I dont like action combat base mmo but I dont have problem with that If ashes will develop that way, that's okay.
I can agree with that little tab target is a past and is boring but much more better then when you just left click all over time, like in ESO I much more prefer spaming frostbolt or sinister strike for a example.
I would like to see both system of course but you must do that carefully.
#Tab targeting forever

neuroguy

I will be speccing mostly into tab-based combat. I really really love the idea of action combat, but every iteration of it that i've seen so far (in an mmo where lag issues and PvP are critically important) simply devolves into aoe farming like in BDO. I think BDO style action combat can be fun to experience but it does NOT lead to a satisfying PvE game-loop that I'd like to take part in. Personally I'd rather kill fewer but more difficult enemies that take longer time and more prep to deal with than slaying legions of mobs. I like the tactics that traditional dungeons and raids provide with tab targeting combat. One quick point on that: I know many people are tired of tab targeting and traditional dungeons etc but there are many players like myself who had a brief love affair with MMOs, fell in love with the tactics and complexity but put down the genre because it devolved into cash grabs and catered to hyper casual gameplay. That is to say, there are people like me who aren't actually sick of tab targeting yet because we didn't put up with the change of direction in MMOs and are being attracted to AoC for a variety of reasons. But I digress, I'm definitely open to a hybrid system or action only system even but my naive opinion, not having seen the hybrid combat planned in action (no pun intended), I prefer tab targeting.

Marcet

Obviously a little bit of both, but we'll have to see the game in full function to really decide, since I didn't felt it yet. Only seen it.

Jesforart

Hi.

I will probably try to spec a character that balances a even number of action skills akin to tab targeting skills.

I categorize action based skills:

• as close range kills
• as a mobility skill
• skills that can potentially rush forward
• a skill that side steps into an attack
• a skill that counters (I think that CC's should be built off of counters)
• a skill that area of effects around your character
• cross-hair skills ( could you guys please play with the zoom over shoulder crosshair for rangers, PLSSS)

I categorize tab-targeting skills:

• as skills that use a targeting ground reticle that can hit multiple targets (most mmos only use a circle, but it would be so cool if you guys played with difference shapes; why couldn't a ground reticle be a triangle, or square, or a reticle that we controlled the size of. What if the size defined the damage output of the skill. What if the different shapes emphasized a targeting pattern within the reticle)
• as a skill that targets a specific enemy ( this skill could balloon to other allies or enemies; like your lightning skill)(also what happened to the ability to be able to target yourself in using a skill offensively against your player; I miss old necromancers that sacrificed themselves to fight)
• as mobility skills
• as ranged skills

Thanks for reading.

Thorir

pure action combat is to stressful for me this means I dont want to play the game at all. a mix is acceptable

Cirrus

I think action combat is absolutely necessary for a healthy pvp (and to large extent pve) player base. Tab targeting relies on gear and current game meta, therefore making game somewhat predictable and stale. A good action combat allows players to display their skills and win battles despite having less powerful gear. It gives players something to strive for - a goal of mastering the movement, the aiming, the timing. A good action combat will grant the game longevity, which I'm sure is your main goal as a company.
Sure tab targeting is an old and trusted system that's usually preferred by more casual players, but I don't thing you can retain them for a very long time.
I hope your implementation of action combat won't be limited to few aoe skill and mele range auto attacks. A good variety of dodging and strafing mechanics to avoid stuns with a mix of skills that require good aiming and timing are necessary to have a decent skill cap in the game and maintain a healthy pvp player base.
I used to play Dragon Nest. Overall every aspect of that game was meh, but a perfect action combat system kept me playing for several years. You might want to check it out.

Cypher

Dreoh wrote: »

Cypher wrote: »

Barque wrote: »

Tab here. There's enough going on in the heat of battle already. Having to precisely place an aiming pip isn't on the list of things I want to do.

For enemy targeting, dealing with pip targeting the smallest game model possible while they're jumping non-stop is just silly and frustrating. Positioning should have a place in skillful and strategic combat without turning it into a child's console game. Tab targeting/target locking helps facilitate that.

Phew right, standing still and watching cooldowns while you and 500 other people auto-target a boss until it finally runs out of health is exhilarating. Lol

Precisely aiming a reticle is not what action combat is all about. In BDO, the reticle is useful in some instances sure, but in many cases you use skills that have a wide arc or AOE. And for melee classes it’s literally just pointing out the center of your attacks and you absolutely can turn the reticle off because it’s not needed. In Vindictus there isn’t even a reticle at all. Both games have very fun, *fluid*, exciting and immersive combat systems that are truly action.

And yet in neither game does your notion of “dealing with pip targeting the smallest game model possible when they’re jumping nonstop” exist. But as long as my action combat is in the game the way I’d like, I want you to have the ability to tab target so you can enjoy the game your way as well. Both can exist side by side with a bit stronger damage and possibly more potent effects as a reward for aimed skills.

Except AoC is not BDO or Vindictus. It has wide open maps with 250v250 player pvp. It has many ranged classes. In fact, it has 8 ranger classes which presumably specialize in bows, and many caster classes. His comment about hitting someone far away is more likely than not.

Action combat fits in two categories. A small-fight scenario system, or a Dynasty Warriors "We hit whole squads with all of our attacks" kind of system. Small-fight works for BDO and Vindictus, but not for a game with 250v250 like AoC. And it may be my personal opinion, but Dynasty Warriors combat is not fun nor rewarding, especially not in a pvp scenario.

It's also very disingenuous and a bad faith argument to dismiss his opinions by exaggerating them in such a way. Anyone can say "Phew right, just pointing your camera and mashing all your buttons while you and 30 other people do the same until the boss runs out of health is exhilarating" just as you did.

I'm beginning to think you haven't played BDO. It too is open world and thus "wide open maps", and has massive PvP battles. I can't recall the exact number from the top of my head but I want to say 100v100 for Node Wars. It's essentially a pure PvP game aside from mob grinding.
It has several ranged classes as well, which is really odd that you didn't know that and again makes me think you don't actually know the game.
Furthermore, like any MMO there are plenty of AOE abilities but also a ton of non-AOE abilities and fights that are 1v1 or in small handfuls of players (even in the large battles yes), so your "we hit whole squads with our attacks" comment is nonsense. The combat, even on a large scale, feels very intimate like you have to really know your opponents and be able to dance past their abilities and land your own. And sure sometimes, depending on the class, you are less intimate and more total destruction with AOE death, but even then you're not wiping entire squads by yourself

Oh yeah, and I was totally making an argument rather than heckling someone sarcastically and in good fun, don't you know? I always use obvious exaggerations and put a "lol" at the end of a serious argument. You got me there.

Patsold

I always choose the simple, accurate and what causes the most damage. So mainly tab targeting. Action combat s system is a gimmick for me. Maybe I can get the opponent into the vesier quickly enough, I also have to use my mouse movement this make it difficult.
Only when action combat is rewarded via the tab targeting am I forced to take it with me.
I hope we stick with "easy to learn, hard to master" in tab targeting.
I also find it more difficult to balance skills that are made with the action combat system because there are more things to consider than with the tab targeting system.

Hakaiju

Did you open the post because of this poll and wanted more insight? Or because you didnt see it, which would be concerning given that it has close to 3k votes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/lz2i3z/whats_your_preferred_type_of_combat/

RainFae

I just realized tera also has a pretty good ac system other than bdo in my opinion, that is fun and immersive

HankTheTank

i would love to have an whirlwind attack that is non-targetable as warrior, hope that happens

Ramirez

People need to understand that full action is impossible, imagine an healer with a single target heal, trying to heal an tank inside a zerg or a ranged dps that want to attack an specific targe inside enemy zerg is impossible with pure action combat, people need to remember this isn´t only small scale fights..

But an hybrid combat can work, melees can have almost all attacks full action, like some ranged attacks can be action to

Unknown

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Unknown

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Resqtoaster

Whether tanking, healing or DPS I will likely spec my characters with a mixture of Action Combat (AC) and Tab Targeting (TT). If players have a Limited Action Bar (LAB) such that we can only assign something like 8 skills, I would have 6 AC and 2 TT skills. To oversimplify this system, this would behave like the following:

• 4 AC skills as rotation/primary healing
• 1 AC skills as filler
• 1 AC as utility/mobility
• 1 TT as Off Global Cooldown (OGCD) single target rotation
• 1 TT as single target utility

With a hybrid system like this the game feels essentially purely AC but also requires TT to prioritize targets, even if they are in groups, for interrupts or maintaining DoTs or debuffs, etc. I also feel that mixing AC and TT opens up players to experience gameplay with another layer of variety.

I wanted to weigh in on Ramirez's comment on pure AC and healing because I do disagree:

Ramirez wrote: »

People need to understand that full action is impossible, imagine an healer with a single target heal, trying to heal an tank inside a zerg or a ranged dps that want to attack an specific targe inside enemy zerg is impossible with pure action combat, people need to remember this isn´t only small scale fights..

But an hybrid combat can work, melees can have almost all attacks full action, like some ranged attacks can be action to

In Wildstar they had a "smart" healing system for their AC. One skill I recall read something like this,

Heals the 5 lowest health targets. Will always prioritize tanks.

This was a ground targeted ability that was a decently sized square. When cast in the tank/melee group, if it struck 1 tank and 6 melee, it would heal the tank and 4 melee even if a 5th melee had less HP than the tank. This isn't a mindless spam skill either. If there is an off-tank as well and it didn't need healing while the main tank and 4 melee really-really needed healing, if the healer struck the off-tank or the off-tank walked into the skill, one of those melee's that desperately needed the heal would not receive it. Hopefully that helps illustrate this concept.

Is this the best option out there? I don't know. It worked well and I also had lots of fun, so I believe that complete AC healing is viable. I'd still put my vote in for hybrid healing though.

mischievousPriest

Hello~
I'm gonna play Cleric,
speccing it with majority action based skills.

Why? well,...
◘ TT for me is like having auto-pilot mode on, while in AC I take the wheel in my hands with the thrill of full control and a feeling of 'no risk, no fun'.

◘ a Healer in AC is dope for me to play, 'specially in PvP: aiming in the right direction - or even better having some non-automated lock-on spells, that make u focus on ur allies catching with it the one(or few) Player(s) in the mass, who's HP bar is dangerously low to safe them spot on, makes my fight experience go through the roof.

◘ I like the greater mobility that AC often provides; it breaks me free from certain skill rotations and let's me act more independent - in general, I am a rather 'jumpy' player: constant movement, dodges, i-frames, backsteps is what I need to have on my skill bar, otherwise my keyboard and mouse feel underused.

◘ plus, I see more skill based fights in AC then TT: the depths that it can add to a game is for me a major factor; ppl, who start to theorize around it, endless duel sessions, constant attempts to 'crack the code' - figuring out all the hidden cc's, anti-kd's, blockcancelings, correct positionings, distance measures etc. It can be a blast x)

So, my hopes are high
my expectations low,
I wish you guys the best and pls sweep me off my feet o/

RainFae

Ramirez wrote: »

People need to understand that full action is impossible, imagine an healer with a single target heal, trying to heal an tank inside a zerg or a ranged dps that want to attack an specific targe inside enemy zerg is impossible with pure action combat, people need to remember this isn´t only small scale fights..

But an hybrid combat can work, melees can have almost all attacks full action, like some ranged attacks can be action to

Oh yes you absolutely can, take a look at gameplay of action mobas such as gigantic, paladins and overwatch to name a few. I think most of us just express what we want from the 75% part of the hybrid combat they are trying to make because we are the ones that are going to use it the most. We are not trying to make the game full action combat, even though personally i would absolutely love that 🤩😍

Daerax

I will probably prefer tab targeting, because even though I was always pretty hyped about any MMO that had action combat, it never seems to work for me above duels or solo leveling (even though especially leveling always felt much better in any of those games compared to wow, in which I spent most of my time). On the other hand, I am really sceptical about basic weapon attacks (being separate "ability" you have to press) combined with tab targeted abilities, so especially for builds more focused on basic attacks, I feel people might be forced to go a bit more action, than other builds, to really feel good to play their class. What has me worried the most is basic attacks with ranged weapons even though I didn't see any recent footage from ranger's point of view (don't think there is any, but if I missed anything, I would really appreciate a link), so they might end up working completely different way than I imagine and be really cool. I really see two options and neither works in my head. Having to press every ranged attack if they end up being tab targeted seems weird (might be ok, if they really end up being at least somewhat impactful thanks to skill points, but I don't think it's likely that melee attacks would strike in cone while ranged would be tab targeted anyway), but I especially dislike the idea of having to manually aim every basic attack in MMOrpg in content like raid or larger pvp.