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Dev Discussion #28 - Hybrid Combat
In terms of Ashes’ hybrid combat system - where do you think you’ll be speccing your character? Majority action based skills? Majority tab-based skills? An even mix of both? Why?
Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding mentoring!
A mix of both. I would love to think both type of attacks are projectiles of sort. Meaning you could shield yourself by raising the earth in front of you (earth wall type deal) A skill useless in all other ways, except maybe make people reach higher places. But simply protects you from things.
Think of Mei's wall in Overwatch for example. I would like to see things like that for active skills. Because I think such things have very high skill potential and allow for creative combat. Fireball? see it coming late? WALL!
For me personally, I've been leaning towards action combat recently - I think it is generally more engaging and rewarding to play.
Now for my thoughts on some other concerns people have brought up:
1) one style being strictly better than the other, balancing issues, community meta forcing people to play a specific way, etc.
There are so many things to consider here, but in general I think they can be designed around.
a) making the skillshots easy to hit - so only real choice by the player is how they want to control the game, not min/max their damage.
b) certain skills are always TT or AC - so there are not different versions of skills to balance around.
(personally I would go the more customizable route with design choice A)
2) The impact to group content. Does healing become difficult? Are people going to make more mistakes? Does the content need to be made easier? etc.
For this topic, I think it is best to explore games in the genera like GW2 as others have mentioned, but also games outside such as Monster Hunter and Smite.
Both MH and Smite are great examples of action combat in group settings that I don't think get enough attention from the MMORPG audience. Another example from the isometric moba genera would be Battle Rite; IMO, it has the best moba controls I've ever seen, but unfortunately it failed in other areas.
Overall I think including action combat is the right direction and it can probably live happily with tab targeting, we just have to make sure it is designed correctly.
I'd say generally make most AOE AC (with some TT if its supposed to be AOE from a target). If its single target, make it TT. Single target AC feels too much like a FPS.
I'm okay for a hybrid of action and tab but mebbe leaning to a little more action.
Jahlon's last livestream had some interesting discussions regarding this including hitboxes. I don't think he's edited and upload the relevant bits to YT yet.
For me, it really depends on how the action combat works. I love when my own skill matters for when and how I use the skills in the game. I heavily lean towards PvE, so action combat probably mainly makes sense when you actually have to aim at something in the game (which would be cool).
It probably also depends on my daily mood. Some days I just want to chill in the game doing some repeatable stuff. Then I might be happy with just using tab targeting.
But as long as combat is smooth I'll probably fine either way.
It sucks but I would rather see Intrepid succeed. The more players that are online means more fun for the players. More players means more money in Intrepids pocket.
The last thing any of us on these forums want is to see this game crash and burn 3 months after release. Besides they could make the Battle Royale happen again with action combat after we all have a home in AoC.
Ok first of all take notes from BDO some of the best combat in mmo history in my opinion.
and one of the big reasons why is that no matter if you like TT or AC they give you the option to whatever you want. whatever you like you can play. I don't think people who use TT should do less damage because of the why they play. should always be even. I'm going to do TT and AC hybrid combat. Cones and cleaves would be great options too.
It sucks but I would rather see Intrepid succeed. The more players that are online means more fun for the players. More players means more money in Intrepids pocket.
The last thing any of us on these forums want is to see this game crash and burn 3 months after release. Besides they could make the Battle Royale happen again with action combat after we all have a home in AoC.
Are you implying that the majority of people play tt and that ac mmos failed because of the type of combat they used and that aoc should only do tt? Cause I'm not an expert on mmos but i don't think thats the case
As many people believe. Combat may be the primary factor on a games' success and longetivity. That would be the sole activity beside the social aspect of the game that you will be interacting with the game the most. In my opinion, the game needs to be immersive and engaging at all times to serve its mmo purpose, and personally action combat does that more effectively when the design it's implemented right.
I think I'm not too far fetched to say that nowadays most people will prefer combat over tab-target. Reason being the following:
Fun experience: Generally, action combat demands more visual cues, reaction, effort, "fingers", communication, and coordination to excel at boss encounters, pvp, raid, battles, etc. But when you put the time to practice and get used to it and execute to perfection, you would feel like the game is an extension to your body and feel accomplished and rewarded of your skills.
Mobility: With action combat you have more mobility. The fact that you have to be aware of your position, how far you have to execute such skills, have to know the range and radius of a given skill or spell, and so much more just add to the complexity and skill required to be great at the game. In such scenario, mobility would be crafted uniquely by each player. You'll probably won't find many player with same move pattern or fighting style because how different players they move to exercise their signature combos/attacks. It's like playing soccer or basketball.
Better on controller: Not sure how much support will ashes have on controllers but action combat will inherently add benefits to controller player generally due to the action based input that can be translated and interpreted well on pad already. Many action mmo are already doing that in console.
Higher skill gap: need explanation? More apparent in pvp. But goes back to the more time you put into your practices and mobility the more you get out of it. Although not saying tab target doesn't take skill. It's just there are more elements to it on action based combat.
Immersion: both styles are immersive overall but, generally action combat is less forgiving due to the fact that you can't just click on a target and be focused, you have to take precautions and move accordingly. I think it can apply to offensive attacks, supportive actives, healing, and even evasive. If combat design is implemented right it can be natural to take on these roles.
Overall: I would prefer honestly if the game goes full action but even I am aware that is not easy task at all. Even at this era there only been a very few that have executed it fairly decently. In my opinion, blade and soul and black desert combat experience has been just far ahead of the rest that saddens me about the standard at this day and age. However, I understand the compromises and different preferences people have as well.
Overall, if ashes doesn't go full action which they have to commit fully into then I would say something hybrid would be the best alternative they can hope for. I don't know how successful that experience will carry over to future (as industry is going action base) but if implemented right at least the foundation can be built upon. If it's hybrid I would say the base should be action combat and few complementary tab targeting skills.
I would go full AC if I could, because I enjoy it more and here’s why.
First of all, when I see people play Wow or TT mmorpgs where their character is the size of a bean, I doubt so hard how it would feel immersive. To me, it feels like they are only looking at a screen or the ground, instead of the world in the mmo.
Second of all, coming from a full free-aim game, where I have to aim every single one of my abilities including basic attack (applies to ranged classes), and can theoretically dodge everything using my own skill instead of relying on RNG, the idea of having ranged classes target locking you and just pewpewpewing with 12148761412312421 bores and disgusts me to death. It is the complete opposite of an immersive combat experience. And it makes no sense that they have the distance advantage and can still target lock enemies, and their single target ice bolts fly through an enemy because they target locked someone else behind. I want to be rewarded for outplaying the enemies with my skills, not for criting more and dodging more than the opponents because RNG decides so.
(Side note: IMO mobility of each class is part of combat, but it lies in the area of game/class design, NOT the combat system itself .Therefore high mobility can be implemented in both TT and AC.)
To be more constructive I’d like to propose a modified AC system for discussion. It is pretty much 90% AC with a twist.
Besides the normal full AC system, players can use a button, let’s say ALT to toggle to cursor mode where they can see their cursor position and can move it freely without changing camera angle. While in this mode, players can move the camera angle by holding right click; all abilities will be fired towards the cursor’s location, instead of the now-missing centred reticle. Moreover, all allied single target spells will be applied to the person, whose name/stat plate in the raid member UI the cursor is pointing at, given their character is inside my camera/vision. But the directional projectiles, like a flying healing orb, or ground-based AOEs are still targeted at the cursor.
In addition, to facilitate aiming and distance control, there is an indicator at the target no matter by cursor or reticle if your aim lies inside the hitbox of the target. And its colour changes depending on the type of target at the cursor (ally vs enemy), and whether the target is in range of the chosen spell, when holding down a hotkey, right click to cancel, release to fire.
This twist is by no means similar to TT, but it solves many of the problems TT players have about AC, like not being able to accurately heal an ally in a crowd / a highly mobile ally, additional aiming pressure on healers, too much hectic camera movement / mechanical aiming for the more mature players, or not being able to watch over another area due to fixed camera angle, yet keeping the benefits of having an AC system, if they wish to use AC only.
I believe giving an idea like this helps you develop a system better suited for all players than simply saying XYZ requires more skills than ABC.
Take your time and make AC work. It’s fine if hybrid is the best you can do given your resources. But it would be disappointing and sad to hear that you fall back to pure TT and copy WoW without trying simply because it is what worked for the most successful mmorpg in the past, is what WoW players are used to, and can guarantee you "success". What worked in the past isn’t necessarily what the best we can do now is. Look to the future and lead the evolution of mmorpgs.
I can't emphasize enough how much I would prefer the game focusing purely on tab targeting with some AoE abilites being non target required, as is should in a classic mmorpg style of game. It boggles my mind to see people prefer action combat in an mmo where large pvp battles is going to take place. How are you supposed to single one out of the herd and focusing on that one guy.
Skill should not come from having to aim like in a fps game in an mmo imo. Skill in an mmo comes from positioning, situational awareness, knowledge about classes abilities and when to use your multitide of abilities at the right time in the right order and often having to coordinate with other players and classes abilities to secure the win. An example of this combat executed well is Warhammer online. It's around 13 years old but still holds up in 2021 and where combat feels very rewarding and satisfying. My whish is a combat system where that style is improved upon and perfected. Please don't ruin this one console players.
I will be speccing whats optimal for pvp whether it's action combat or tab targeting, you will be forced to because one is going to be better than the other.
Dev Discussion #28 - Hybrid Combat
In terms of Ashes’ hybrid combat system - where do you think you’ll be speccing your character? Majority action based skills? Majority tab-based skills? An even mix of both? Why?[/i]
I think it depends heavily on how this system is implemented, so this is a very hard question to answer without more information. While I would say that action combat is generally more fun than tab-targeting, if it is poorly implemented to the point of being a chore then it just feels like a button masher. Personally, I would lean more towards each side depending on the class I am playing, such as tab-based for mage and action-based for rogue.
I can't emphasize enough how much I would prefer the game focusing purely on tab targeting with some AoE abilites being non target required, as is should in a classic mmorpg style of game. It boggles my mind to see people prefer action combat in an mmo where large pvp battles is going to take place. How are you supposed to single one out of the herd and focusing on that one guy.
Skill should not come from having to aim like in a fps game in an mmo imo. Skill in an mmo comes from positioning, situational awareness, knowledge about classes abilities and when to use your multitide of abilities at the right time in the right order and often having to coordinate with other players and classes abilities to secure the win. An example of this combat executed well is Warhammer online. It's around 13 years old but still holds up in 2021 and where combat feels very rewarding and satisfying. My whish is a combat system where that style is improved upon and perfected. Please don't ruin this one console players.
I will be speccing whats optimal for pvp whether it's action combat or tab targeting, you will be forced to because one is going to be better than the other.
1) I don't think this is classified as a 'classic mmo' considering its the first attempt at a game that combines so many features
2) If you don't have an eagles eye view you very simply focus at the enemy that is literally in your face
3) Skill doesn't care me from action combat it simply requires a different set (arguably the same as tt but harder because of not having the eagle eye view and more fun/immersive)
4) Not every ac enthusiast plays on console, speaking from personal experience 😁
I can't emphasize enough how much I would prefer the game focusing purely on tab targeting with some AoE abilites being non target required, as is should in a classic mmorpg style of game. It boggles my mind to see people prefer action combat in an mmo where large pvp battles is going to take place. How are you supposed to single one out of the herd and focusing on that one guy.
Skill should not come from having to aim like in a fps game in an mmo imo. Skill in an mmo comes from positioning, situational awareness, knowledge about classes abilities and when to use your multitide of abilities at the right time in the right order and often having to coordinate with other players and classes abilities to secure the win. An example of this combat executed well is Warhammer online. It's around 13 years old but still holds up in 2021 and where combat feels very rewarding and satisfying. My whish is a combat system where that style is improved upon and perfected. Please don't ruin this one console players.
I will be speccing whats optimal for pvp whether it's action combat or tab targeting, you will be forced to because one is going to be better than the other.
1) I don't think this is classified as a 'classic mmo' considering its the first attempt at a game that combines so many features
2) If you don't have an eagles eye view you very simply focus at the enemy that is literally in your face
3) Skill doesn't care me from action combat it simply requires a different set (arguably the same as tt but harder because of not having the eagle eye view and more fun/immersive)
4) Not every ac enthusiast plays on console, speaking from personal experience 😁
1) That was my opinion if that was unclear.
2) Very tactical gameplay waving your arms in front of you in a cat like fight. Focus the healer! oh no i can't that chubby dwarf is in the way!
3) guess that is personal preference, tt can be as immersive and fun, you might just not have played the good ones
4) Did not say everyone, just whish this genre of game is not ruined by the casual console herd
That was my opinion if that was unclear.
2) Very tactical gameplay waving your arms in front of you in a cat like fight. Focus the healer! oh no i can't that chubby dwarf is in the way!
3) guess that is personal preference, tt can be as immersive and fun, you might just not have played the good ones
4) Did not say everyone, just whish this genre of game is not ruined by the casual console herd
Not being able to focus on certain people because others are in the way is just something extra you have to strategize for, part of the ac is arguably more difficult and fun comment
Also both tt and ac games is characters waving their arms at each other but i guess you cant see that if you are zoomed out on tt gameplay, its super fun up close
I can tell when people give opinions, i was just giving some insight from another person's perspective on you problem areas if that was unclear, thats all 😊
Its to early to make a judgement based on what has been shown from the combat. I think ashes should try emulate World of Warcrafts combat meaning that its a tab based system that has some action combat style abilities that are either cone based attacks that you aim or AoE effects you drop on the ground.
Currently the combat looks very similar to what GW2 has with its hybrid system, i think this is the next best option to try and emulate.
It entirely depends on what type of class and role im trying to play, as a melee character having more action based combat abilities that i directionally aim would be great a long with some tab target style abilities like a charge, grip or even a gap closer/stuns. Leap style abilities/disengaging from combat type abilities that i directionally aim would work great as well.
As a caster/healer/range i think i'd want most of my abilities to be on a tab target style system thou having a few cone/aoe attacks would work well as well
so for me melee would be 75% action combat, 25% tab and for caster/ranged/healer 75% tab and 25% action combat.
I also would like to see a form of blocking/parrying in the game that reduces damage you take, possibly reflects an attack if you have a shield etc, an example is like in elder scrolls online where you can simply hold down a button to block/parry to reduce damage.
My opinion: I'd be looking very closely at Guild Wars 2's hybrid combat system. it's both intuitive and smooth without feeling too clunky like WoW's tab-targeting system. I really dislike the idea of ranged auto-attack type abilities needing to be aimed, instead being handled through stats like Accuracy or something, particularly with how heavy of an emphasis this game places on PvP.
Melee players are already used to needing to "aim" there abilities to some degree because you need to have the targets in front of you (typically 90 degree frontal cone), so I'd really prefer to see abilities that aren't tab-targeted be ground/area targeted so that there's significant margin for error.
I've only played MMO's with TT and I liked it very much. I really enjoy the combat with this system. The first time I've taken a look at AC, I was rather turned off because there were just 200 animations exploding somewhere and all they were doing was dashing from one side to the other one. Then I read some opinions in this thread and watched some other videos with AC.
I cannot really say if I would like the AC system but I would appreciate it if it gets into the game, so I can try it out and that players who like AC more also have their fun while playing. I dont really know how to implement it into the game, but I hope you'll find a way to make everyone happy.
I would prefer 90% action combat, with a style similar to BDO.
Healers should probably be mostly tab-target, and I hope FPS fanatics will not rule pvp (which could happen if precise aiming is rewarded too much).
The greatest feeling in combat is having total control and awareness of your character. You can dodge incoming attacks, quickly turn to attack or run, and reposition yourself to get the right angle on attacks. The sense of fluidity, control, and capacity that comes with knowing the precise hit distance of your weapons and your enemies makes repositioning so much more rewarding in an action-style combat.
Many comments suggest that action combat involves a lot of careful aiming. While this can work very well with high-damage attacks or otherwise special abilities, action-combat can also mean wide hit boxes, short or long range attacks, and more dodge-ability. All of this makes the game much more immersive to me, and makes combat feel epic.
We already have great tab-target games in FFXIV and WOW. I hope Ashes of Creation can be something all its own, and it seems to me that there hasn't yet been an MMO with good PVP and PVE that focuses on action-combat in style of BDO.
"In terms of Ashes’ hybrid combat system - where do you think you’ll be speccing your character? Majority action based skills? Majority tab-based skills? An even mix of both? Why?"
I would lean into action based skills. They allow for more control and creative play. But it will really depend on how the skills work and how useful they are. Also, how usable they are with whatever my ping ends up being.
Would be completely pointless to use something that would never land because I never know where the enemy actually is.
I strongly believe that separating action and tab skills instead of having most skills be true hybrid (Like GW2, ESO or Wildstar) will be a mistake.
Doing so will make balance harder alongside making the skills synergize much less on both a immersion and gameplay perspective. This is already partly evident in the makeshift "hybrid" definition of the game. It's only going to be "Hybrid" because you're forced to take at least 25% of either. This arbitrary rule just feels like a stopgap appeasement that's not really well thought out. It's indicative of a deeper problem with the system, the same way Overwatch enacting the "Only up to 2 of the same character" was an arbitrary rule in an attempt to fix a broken system was
That's not actual "Hybrid", it's "Action & Tab Target™". Though that may seem like it's the same thing, they are entirely different.
Either go TT, Action, or True Hybrid, not an amalgamation of TT and Action.
A majority action based. If these skills have better reward vs risk (i.e. higher damage, duration, etc.), then I will take that as a challenge to improve my skill at using them. This would support what I would like to see as a more skill-based PvP experience.
If you are pro tt combat and can't understand how ac would work for healers or what ever i feel paladins as an action moba that is f2p is one great option to jump in and experience it first hand, who know you might even understand why we ac enthusiast find it more rewarding engaging and fun. I feel that will help you get a feel on what we want from ac.
Just a thought ☺️
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I think I will spec more towards action combat.
I really enjoy the combat in Guild Wars 2 who also use a hybrid system that looks similar to what ashes currently seems to be having.
And in GW2 I enjoy the active builds with mostly action combat skills.
Now in order for this to work the skills do need to flow well together.
If you are stuck in animations for to long action combat simply does not work.
(for big skills this is no problem)
So I think it is very important for ashes that the skill have a nice flow to them and don't root you in place.
positioning on the battle field is also an important part of gameplay and it is annoying if you see a big hit incoming but cannot move due to an animation from a small skill locking you.
Dev Discussion #28 - Hybrid Combat
In terms of Ashes’ hybrid combat system - where do you think you’ll be speccing your character? Majority action based skills? Majority tab-based skills? An even mix of both? Why?
Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding mentoring!
Whatever rewards positioning and timing in the most satisfying way.
I'm biased for AC because:
1) I enjoy dynamic melee classes the most, and I like being able to switch focus fire instantly. Having to tab-lock at melee range while surrounded by 10 enemies would feel like an unnecesary extra step with no extra pay-up.
2) It feel more responsive and more in control addressing individual enemies in group-fights by aiming CC or skillshots at their direction or path instead of pointing at their 3d model with my mouse.
3) I prefer using my mouse for aiming or moving the camera around instead of pointing and clicking for targeting or casting.
4) I don't want to listen to the predictive, uniform and repetitive sound of tab melee auto-attacks.
I prefer combat sound to be player driven and organical.
Comments
A mix of both. I would love to think both type of attacks are projectiles of sort. Meaning you could shield yourself by raising the earth in front of you (earth wall type deal) A skill useless in all other ways, except maybe make people reach higher places. But simply protects you from things.
Think of Mei's wall in Overwatch for example. I would like to see things like that for active skills. Because I think such things have very high skill potential and allow for creative combat. Fireball? see it coming late? WALL!
Now for my thoughts on some other concerns people have brought up:
1) one style being strictly better than the other, balancing issues, community meta forcing people to play a specific way, etc.
There are so many things to consider here, but in general I think they can be designed around.
a) making the skillshots easy to hit - so only real choice by the player is how they want to control the game, not min/max their damage.
b) certain skills are always TT or AC - so there are not different versions of skills to balance around.
(personally I would go the more customizable route with design choice A)
2) The impact to group content. Does healing become difficult? Are people going to make more mistakes? Does the content need to be made easier? etc.
For this topic, I think it is best to explore games in the genera like GW2 as others have mentioned, but also games outside such as Monster Hunter and Smite.
Both MH and Smite are great examples of action combat in group settings that I don't think get enough attention from the MMORPG audience. Another example from the isometric moba genera would be Battle Rite; IMO, it has the best moba controls I've ever seen, but unfortunately it failed in other areas.
Overall I think including action combat is the right direction and it can probably live happily with tab targeting, we just have to make sure it is designed correctly.
Jahlon's last livestream had some interesting discussions regarding this including hitboxes. I don't think he's edited and upload the relevant bits to YT yet.
It probably also depends on my daily mood. Some days I just want to chill in the game doing some repeatable stuff. Then I might be happy with just using tab targeting.
But as long as combat is smooth I'll probably fine either way.
It sucks but I would rather see Intrepid succeed. The more players that are online means more fun for the players. More players means more money in Intrepids pocket.
The last thing any of us on these forums want is to see this game crash and burn 3 months after release. Besides they could make the Battle Royale happen again with action combat after we all have a home in AoC.
and one of the big reasons why is that no matter if you like TT or AC they give you the option to whatever you want. whatever you like you can play. I don't think people who use TT should do less damage because of the why they play. should always be even. I'm going to do TT and AC hybrid combat. Cones and cleaves would be great options too.
Are you implying that the majority of people play tt and that ac mmos failed because of the type of combat they used and that aoc should only do tt? Cause I'm not an expert on mmos but i don't think thats the case
I think I'm not too far fetched to say that nowadays most people will prefer combat over tab-target. Reason being the following:
Fun experience: Generally, action combat demands more visual cues, reaction, effort, "fingers", communication, and coordination to excel at boss encounters, pvp, raid, battles, etc. But when you put the time to practice and get used to it and execute to perfection, you would feel like the game is an extension to your body and feel accomplished and rewarded of your skills.
Mobility: With action combat you have more mobility. The fact that you have to be aware of your position, how far you have to execute such skills, have to know the range and radius of a given skill or spell, and so much more just add to the complexity and skill required to be great at the game. In such scenario, mobility would be crafted uniquely by each player. You'll probably won't find many player with same move pattern or fighting style because how different players they move to exercise their signature combos/attacks. It's like playing soccer or basketball.
Better on controller: Not sure how much support will ashes have on controllers but action combat will inherently add benefits to controller player generally due to the action based input that can be translated and interpreted well on pad already. Many action mmo are already doing that in console.
Higher skill gap: need explanation? More apparent in pvp. But goes back to the more time you put into your practices and mobility the more you get out of it. Although not saying tab target doesn't take skill. It's just there are more elements to it on action based combat.
Immersion: both styles are immersive overall but, generally action combat is less forgiving due to the fact that you can't just click on a target and be focused, you have to take precautions and move accordingly. I think it can apply to offensive attacks, supportive actives, healing, and even evasive. If combat design is implemented right it can be natural to take on these roles.
Overall: I would prefer honestly if the game goes full action but even I am aware that is not easy task at all. Even at this era there only been a very few that have executed it fairly decently. In my opinion, blade and soul and black desert combat experience has been just far ahead of the rest that saddens me about the standard at this day and age. However, I understand the compromises and different preferences people have as well.
Overall, if ashes doesn't go full action which they have to commit fully into then I would say something hybrid would be the best alternative they can hope for. I don't know how successful that experience will carry over to future (as industry is going action base) but if implemented right at least the foundation can be built upon. If it's hybrid I would say the base should be action combat and few complementary tab targeting skills.
First of all, when I see people play Wow or TT mmorpgs where their character is the size of a bean, I doubt so hard how it would feel immersive. To me, it feels like they are only looking at a screen or the ground, instead of the world in the mmo.
Second of all, coming from a full free-aim game, where I have to aim every single one of my abilities including basic attack (applies to ranged classes), and can theoretically dodge everything using my own skill instead of relying on RNG, the idea of having ranged classes target locking you and just pewpewpewing with 12148761412312421 bores and disgusts me to death. It is the complete opposite of an immersive combat experience. And it makes no sense that they have the distance advantage and can still target lock enemies, and their single target ice bolts fly through an enemy because they target locked someone else behind. I want to be rewarded for outplaying the enemies with my skills, not for criting more and dodging more than the opponents because RNG decides so.
(Side note: IMO mobility of each class is part of combat, but it lies in the area of game/class design, NOT the combat system itself .Therefore high mobility can be implemented in both TT and AC.)
To be more constructive I’d like to propose a modified AC system for discussion. It is pretty much 90% AC with a twist.
Besides the normal full AC system, players can use a button, let’s say ALT to toggle to cursor mode where they can see their cursor position and can move it freely without changing camera angle. While in this mode, players can move the camera angle by holding right click; all abilities will be fired towards the cursor’s location, instead of the now-missing centred reticle. Moreover, all allied single target spells will be applied to the person, whose name/stat plate in the raid member UI the cursor is pointing at, given their character is inside my camera/vision. But the directional projectiles, like a flying healing orb, or ground-based AOEs are still targeted at the cursor.
In addition, to facilitate aiming and distance control, there is an indicator at the target no matter by cursor or reticle if your aim lies inside the hitbox of the target. And its colour changes depending on the type of target at the cursor (ally vs enemy), and whether the target is in range of the chosen spell, when holding down a hotkey, right click to cancel, release to fire.
This twist is by no means similar to TT, but it solves many of the problems TT players have about AC, like not being able to accurately heal an ally in a crowd / a highly mobile ally, additional aiming pressure on healers, too much hectic camera movement / mechanical aiming for the more mature players, or not being able to watch over another area due to fixed camera angle, yet keeping the benefits of having an AC system, if they wish to use AC only.
I believe giving an idea like this helps you develop a system better suited for all players than simply saying XYZ requires more skills than ABC.
Take your time and make AC work. It’s fine if hybrid is the best you can do given your resources. But it would be disappointing and sad to hear that you fall back to pure TT and copy WoW without trying simply because it is what worked for the most successful mmorpg in the past, is what WoW players are used to, and can guarantee you "success". What worked in the past isn’t necessarily what the best we can do now is. Look to the future and lead the evolution of mmorpgs.
Skill should not come from having to aim like in a fps game in an mmo imo. Skill in an mmo comes from positioning, situational awareness, knowledge about classes abilities and when to use your multitide of abilities at the right time in the right order and often having to coordinate with other players and classes abilities to secure the win. An example of this combat executed well is Warhammer online. It's around 13 years old but still holds up in 2021 and where combat feels very rewarding and satisfying. My whish is a combat system where that style is improved upon and perfected. Please don't ruin this one console players.
I will be speccing whats optimal for pvp whether it's action combat or tab targeting, you will be forced to because one is going to be better than the other.
I think it depends heavily on how this system is implemented, so this is a very hard question to answer without more information. While I would say that action combat is generally more fun than tab-targeting, if it is poorly implemented to the point of being a chore then it just feels like a button masher. Personally, I would lean more towards each side depending on the class I am playing, such as tab-based for mage and action-based for rogue.
1) I don't think this is classified as a 'classic mmo' considering its the first attempt at a game that combines so many features
2) If you don't have an eagles eye view you very simply focus at the enemy that is literally in your face
3) Skill doesn't care me from action combat it simply requires a different set (arguably the same as tt but harder because of not having the eagle eye view and more fun/immersive)
4) Not every ac enthusiast plays on console, speaking from personal experience 😁
1) That was my opinion if that was unclear.
2) Very tactical gameplay waving your arms in front of you in a cat like fight. Focus the healer! oh no i can't that chubby dwarf is in the way!
3) guess that is personal preference, tt can be as immersive and fun, you might just not have played the good ones
4) Did not say everyone, just whish this genre of game is not ruined by the casual console herd
Not being able to focus on certain people because others are in the way is just something extra you have to strategize for, part of the ac is arguably more difficult and fun comment
Also both tt and ac games is characters waving their arms at each other but i guess you cant see that if you are zoomed out on tt gameplay, its super fun up close
I can tell when people give opinions, i was just giving some insight from another person's perspective on you problem areas if that was unclear, thats all 😊
Currently the combat looks very similar to what GW2 has with its hybrid system, i think this is the next best option to try and emulate.
It entirely depends on what type of class and role im trying to play, as a melee character having more action based combat abilities that i directionally aim would be great a long with some tab target style abilities like a charge, grip or even a gap closer/stuns. Leap style abilities/disengaging from combat type abilities that i directionally aim would work great as well.
As a caster/healer/range i think i'd want most of my abilities to be on a tab target style system thou having a few cone/aoe attacks would work well as well
so for me melee would be 75% action combat, 25% tab and for caster/ranged/healer 75% tab and 25% action combat.
I also would like to see a form of blocking/parrying in the game that reduces damage you take, possibly reflects an attack if you have a shield etc, an example is like in elder scrolls online where you can simply hold down a button to block/parry to reduce damage.
Melee players are already used to needing to "aim" there abilities to some degree because you need to have the targets in front of you (typically 90 degree frontal cone), so I'd really prefer to see abilities that aren't tab-targeted be ground/area targeted so that there's significant margin for error.
I cannot really say if I would like the AC system but I would appreciate it if it gets into the game, so I can try it out and that players who like AC more also have their fun while playing. I dont really know how to implement it into the game, but I hope you'll find a way to make everyone happy.
Healers should probably be mostly tab-target, and I hope FPS fanatics will not rule pvp (which could happen if precise aiming is rewarded too much).
The greatest feeling in combat is having total control and awareness of your character. You can dodge incoming attacks, quickly turn to attack or run, and reposition yourself to get the right angle on attacks. The sense of fluidity, control, and capacity that comes with knowing the precise hit distance of your weapons and your enemies makes repositioning so much more rewarding in an action-style combat.
Many comments suggest that action combat involves a lot of careful aiming. While this can work very well with high-damage attacks or otherwise special abilities, action-combat can also mean wide hit boxes, short or long range attacks, and more dodge-ability. All of this makes the game much more immersive to me, and makes combat feel epic.
We already have great tab-target games in FFXIV and WOW. I hope Ashes of Creation can be something all its own, and it seems to me that there hasn't yet been an MMO with good PVP and PVE that focuses on action-combat in style of BDO.
I would lean into action based skills. They allow for more control and creative play. But it will really depend on how the skills work and how useful they are. Also, how usable they are with whatever my ping ends up being.
Would be completely pointless to use something that would never land because I never know where the enemy actually is.
Doing so will make balance harder alongside making the skills synergize much less on both a immersion and gameplay perspective. This is already partly evident in the makeshift "hybrid" definition of the game. It's only going to be "Hybrid" because you're forced to take at least 25% of either. This arbitrary rule just feels like a stopgap appeasement that's not really well thought out. It's indicative of a deeper problem with the system, the same way Overwatch enacting the "Only up to 2 of the same character" was an arbitrary rule in an attempt to fix a broken system was
That's not actual "Hybrid", it's "Action & Tab Target™". Though that may seem like it's the same thing, they are entirely different.
Either go TT, Action, or True Hybrid, not an amalgamation of TT and Action.
If you are pro tt combat and can't understand how ac would work for healers or what ever i feel paladins as an action moba that is f2p is one great option to jump in and experience it first hand, who know you might even understand why we ac enthusiast find it more rewarding engaging and fun. I feel that will help you get a feel on what we want from ac.
Just a thought ☺️
I really enjoy the combat in Guild Wars 2 who also use a hybrid system that looks similar to what ashes currently seems to be having.
And in GW2 I enjoy the active builds with mostly action combat skills.
Now in order for this to work the skills do need to flow well together.
If you are stuck in animations for to long action combat simply does not work.
(for big skills this is no problem)
So I think it is very important for ashes that the skill have a nice flow to them and don't root you in place.
positioning on the battle field is also an important part of gameplay and it is annoying if you see a big hit incoming but cannot move due to an animation from a small skill locking you.
Whatever rewards positioning and timing in the most satisfying way.
I'm biased for AC because:
1) I enjoy dynamic melee classes the most, and I like being able to switch focus fire instantly.
Having to tab-lock at melee range while surrounded by 10 enemies would feel like an unnecesary extra step with no extra pay-up.
2) It feel more responsive and more in control addressing individual enemies in group-fights by aiming CC or skillshots at their direction or path instead of pointing at their 3d model with my mouse.
3) I prefer using my mouse for aiming or moving the camera around instead of pointing and clicking for targeting or casting.
4) I don't want to listen to the predictive, uniform and repetitive sound of tab melee auto-attacks.
I prefer combat sound to be player driven and organical.
I might try tab on ranged classes.
BDO pvp was the most fun i've ever had pvping also grinding for hours was less grindy because the combat was fun.
Reasoning being that action combat keeps you more engaged and I find it more enjoyable.