For me personally I prefer Action Combat (AC) over Tab Target (TT). That being said when it comes to choosing skills, I'll pick whatever suits my playstyle, rather that if its AC or TT. However I hope that the majority of the skills I end up choosing are AC as I find them a lot more fun.
The first reason and my most important reason is that AC requires a lot more skill than TT and from many different aspects. The most obvious skill requirement compared to TT is aiming. You can have all the knowledge of what skill to use in what situation and rotating skill cooldowns, but if you miss that can be detrimental. This adds a whole new level of skill compare to TT. Another skill requirement is dodging. It requires knowledge of your surroundings, seeing who is aiming at you, timing your dodge at the right time, making sure you are dodging to a safe place, etc. Sure you could have active dodging in TT with iframes but its not the same as AC as AC requires timing. In addition there is also the possiblity of hitting players mid dodge animation which is another skill requirement. Another requirement is positioning. Since hitting players will skills requires precise aiming, being positioned to make that easier is a skill requirement in its own. This is even more ephasised if you can position to place where its harder for the enemy to aim at yourself. For example being positioned above the enemy like on a roof of a building. Additionally since players will be aiming at what they are trying to hit, flanking from behind is much more important, so positioning yourself behind the enemy as a flanker or assassin is advantageous. This also means having the respawn base advantegeously positioned is an even more of an important factor.
The second reason I find it more fun is because I find it more immersive. This is somewhat hard for me to describe so this is my best attempt. Since you have to actively use the crosshair to aim, in AC, it feels more realistic and therefore more immersive. Compared to TT where you just press one button to change who you are targeting too.
For me I enjoyed BDO's combat the most. Now I know BDO's combat had a lot of issues but a lot of the issues brought up are about the balancing of the combat and not the core combat system itself, which had some goods aspects that ashes should take into consideration. Firstly what BDO did bring was fluid animations, especially when transitioning to the next skill (comboing) and hitting players will skills feeling impactful. On top of this BDO also had a good blocking and frontal guard system. For the blocking it was a button you press to actively block with the block range being around a cone (~160 degrees) infront of you. What made it so good was that you could transition from one skill to quickly block if you needed to, as well as the animation to transition to the block stance being smooth. The block also had a certain amount of health which a slow regeneration so if it was zero/nearly depleted it meant you were in a vulnerable state. For the frontal guard system it was like the block (health connected and cone being the same) but activated when using a skill. This meant it was even more of an important factor of flankers to flank from behind. As for the dodging BDO had many different variation such as back dodge, iframe dodge, super armor dodge (not being CCed but skill take damage), a back dodge while firing arrows (or some sort of damage skill), teleport, jump, sprint, etc. If these were in a TT combat system, only the iframe and super armor dodge would really be effective.
Overall all the different skill aspects and requirements that AC brings, as well as being more immersive, is why I find AC more fun that TT. Like how AoC has taken parts (systems and mechanics) from many different MMORPGs and modernise them, I think its a good idea for AoC to take the best parts of AC MMORPGs (even if the combat system has some flaws like BDO) and do the same thing.
A balanced system would be best but the outcome of a fight should still be determined by the skill of using and aiming abilities rather than using the abilities in the right order (a complete tab system). Most range classes should not even have an auto attack system (even if you have to activate them by clicking something). Range classes should all need to rely on abilities and it should REALLY matter if you have some kind of CC on the target for you to be able to hit them (or if you are truly skilled to just hit them without any CC). This will ofc make the combat very hard for range, but that should also be the disadvantage since they have the option of fighting from a range. There should really be a big difference in the capabilities of a melee and a range class. This also promotes a good combination of melee and range.
Don't go too wild on the mobility on all classes, some classes should of course have some in order to have a huge impact on a fight, but rangers (myself), mages, summoners, clerics should really have reduced mobility, but this should be compensated with good peeling strategies/abilities. A combat system where all classes have a lot of mobility reduces their dependence on other classes/roles making it more a solo oriented game. I really want the team fights like you are really depending on the other people in the team and making combinations of certain attack/ability patterns really powerful which rewards good team play over good solo skills. But a good player should still be able to fight 2-4 people if their team work is bad and don't know how to combine their abilities.
I would also welcome really long cast abilities that can do a huge impact on a fight, even consuming rare materials from bosses to cast them. This will make players real targets in fights (instead of "KILL THE HEALER!!!") which means a solid defensive strategy to be set up in order to protect your teammates.
For healing I would stay mostly tab-target. While some games, like Overwatch, can be fun to play heroes that require aim in order to heal, it can be very stressful and sometimes place you at a disadvantage when comparing with other healers.
As for the other classes it would probably depend on what the content was. If I was on my ranged DPS that I bring for raids, I would probably have a hybrid of single target set to tab while aoe would be action if nothing else but for flavor. The idea of aiming a fireball down a narrow tunnel for maximum effect sounds addictive. However, if I was playing melee DPS I would probably have most attacks set to action just to feel like I'm really in the thick of a fight.
When it comes to PVP I would imagine having almost everything set to tab-target. It would be fun to aim a bow, or wand, at the approaching enemy, but the stress of losing my Free Hold because I decided to mess around with aiming rather than allowing the engine to target for me is too high. The sad part, like all MMOs, the level of fun a system brings will revolve around PVP. There is always that one player who ruins the fun for everyone because of an exploit they discovered. Still, that is the nature of the beast and hopefully IS can find a way to truly balance it in Ashes.
Before I get jumped on by the passionate mob, when I say lose my Free Hold, I'm talking about the location it is currently sitting. I know that I'll be able to plant it down elsewhere in the world, but the idea of doing that when I'm already in my "ideal location" doesn't sit well with me and would take the fun out of using a hybrid system when I'll want to use max damage at all times rather than taking a chance on missing due to lack of skill/lag/BS dodge mechanics/etc.
I don't have a strong preference. I think a hybrid system is the best way to not upset the 20-40%? that are either steadfastly AC or TT. If the 25/75 split option works well then at least Intrepid will just have field complaints from one side feeling that the other side have got the play balance in their favor, which is probably the best outcome to hope for! Maybe Intrepid have asked this question because they want us all understand the predicament that they are in?!
Pro Tab Targeting (TT):
TT seems like it would be more lag tolerant because it isn't so sensitive to the exact positioning and timing. I suspect that 250v250 or 500v500 PvP could push the limits of server loading and individual ping, making tab target more desirable, as lag could make AC pointless. I don't have the data that the devs have, so I can only speculate.
Pro Action Combat (AC):
If I duck into hard cover then I don't like the idea of a TT fireball ghosting through the wall and exploding on me. It would reduce the immersion, especially with a long missile flight time.
I also understand that there are a number of players that would prefer just TT but feel that they would need to use AC to not be disadvantaged by the extra damage promised for AC. The TT/AC issue has many aspects.
In my Opinion the Hybrid system is the best Option AOC could choose but also the hardest. I think its very hard to create an perfect Hybrid Comabt system.
For me Personaly the pace of the combat is very important, for Example in Bdo its very fast with much dashes and fast pace abilitys, for example in WOW its a very slow medium pace Combat (What i Prefer) to combine both is nearly impossible so there will be people that doesnt like the combat in AOC but still i think its a good approach for a Combat System and i Relly hope they handle it and create some nice shit.
What I am most unshure of is the importance of blocking spells v. s doging them.
For example, if the Tabb ability always garantys a Hit, doging becomes virtually usles.
However if the Tabb abillity works mor like a aim Assistent (which you can activat a choice), doging may even be strictly better than blocking.
That being said, I think that there also needs to be a power balance similiar to the Moba LOL, where point to klick skills usualy do less dmg, have lower cc duration etc. than skillshots.
Combat should be both fun and engaging. This means responsive, impactful, and effective. For me, this generally means action combat, but whether or not I utilize AC over TT depends on a few critical aspects of the combat system:
How quickly does a skill shot get from the limit of the casters range to the target? The travel time of skill shots combined with the size of the hit boxes and skills as well as the number of and responsiveness of movement/evasion skills will determine whether or not I use AC over TT for ranged combat. If I'm missing a substantial number of my shots for reasons outside of my own bad aim, frustration will push me towards TT.
Is there going to be a natural cleave/puncture mechanic for melee weapons? Is there going to be an AOE cap? If my melee attacks are getting body blocked by a tank while I'm attempting to target the healer (or whomever), while dope as hell, this is going to have to be a universal aspect of the melee combat system and not capable of being circumvented by simply TTing the healer.
As far as an AOE cap goes: If there is a limit to the number of people affected by an AOE spell, there should be some method of prioritization within the spells configurable design. In other words, if I want this Meteor Shower to hit the squishies, it's going to be a real shame if it primarily hits the burlies courtesy of RNG. Not sure what this AOE thing has to do with AC versus TT, but there ya have it.
In the end, I don't believe the decision to lean in one direction over the other should be something that changes the limit of what you're capable of. The system should be designed for average player balance; Not taking into account the skill shot gods. A long TTK, as is planned, will also help with this. If a few missed skill shots don't equate to a near automatic loss of the combat, AC will be much more utilized.
I don't think this flows smoothly...whatever...
I prefer tab target combat, because action combat is too hectic for me in comparison and I like being able to turn my camera freely to watch over the a whole area looking out for teammates and mechanics for example in raids and still dps/heal. If I had to combine both, I would try using my single target skills as tab target skills and AOE's as action combat skills.
Both TT and AC can be fun as long as the combat is responsive and fluid .
I played mainly TT mmos like wow but I don't mind a switch as long as the combat is done right.
Many people think AT is more fluid and overall more fun to play than TT, but that is completely wrong, TT if done well can be immensely fun and engaging to play with.
We all know that combat is one if not the most important thing in the game, so whether you stick to this hybrid style you guys are planning or change it during testing as long it feels right I'm ok with it.
In the end it does not matter whether it's AT or TT, it just needs to feel good.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2021
I want to thank Toast and any other devs in advance for reading, and hopefully getting all the way to the end. I’ve been looking forward to this dev discussion for a long time and I picked out key points that I think illustrate where I do and don’t want the system to go.
Action!
I hope you guys make sure the action side of combat is actually action. Some people are calling GW2 a great example of how this game should be and I’m just saying I probably won’t play if that’s where the game lands. It’s already worryingly close in the little bit we’ve seen so far.
The primary difference currently is: GW2, even in “action cam” is literally still a tab target game. All skills, unless AOE, still automatically lock onto the target and you don’t miss. It doesn’t matter what the devs or fans of the game try to say, it literally plays like a tab target game but with the option to target with a fixed reticle instead of a mouse cursor. But in AoC when in action mode you do actually have to aim and it does sort of appear that there are basic attack strings/combos (based on recent footage).
The worst similarity between both games so far is the hot bar. Hot bar combat is boring and tedious. I don’t want to look at my hot bar while I’m fighting! I want to practically forget I’m pressing buttons and be immersed in combat not standing there pressing the same 5 keys!
I’d love if *in addition to, not instead of* the hot bar you also make sure there are combos/strings for your basic attacks. For example: with sword and shield I would like each left click to perform a new strike not just the same swing over and over. Maybe after the 3rd or 4th swing in the combo I can right click for a shield bash. Or alternatively I could hold shift and left click for a heavy swing. And the right click could be to block with the shield. Or switch the buttons in this example to shift block and right click heavy attack, whatever floats your boat just let me do it that way.
Some dissenters in the forums have complained that “true action and true tab cannot coexist” and to that I say “nonsense”.
Yes, you have to take both tab and action skills (no greater than a 75/25 split). Every tab skill can easily be used while in action mode, they just auto target whatever you’re looking at but do less damage.
And every action skill can be used while in tab mode, except perhaps some projectiles that would require aiming. But that’s why that player is playing tab target anyway, they don’t care to aim so they will use AOEs or buffs/debuffs, heals, special abilities, etc for their mandatory 25% action slots.
Steven has already stated that action skills will likely have higher damage or other benefits to make up for them not auto locking like tab skills. There’s no reason why the game cannot play like Vindictus while in Action mode, and play like (choose your tab game of choice) while in tab mode.
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WololoMember, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Preferably tab with action directional attacks, cone shape attacks, aoe templates just like GW2. I dont like full action camera because i want to look around and make plays by responding to what all enemies and allies are doing around and not just the players in frond of me. It is also easier to type and causes less fatigue when farming for a long time which fits better in a MMO imo. But it is hard to deny that action has a high skillcap, is more modern and will house CC skills so like most ppl above I'l be playing whatever fits the build or situation!
I think hybrid is the best bet. I truly think GW2 has the best combat system so far, its quite fluid and has weight to the animations. The ability to move around and dodge while casting abilities is unlike any other mmo ive played, harder raids are great fun in that game. with that being said, I believe the dev team has the ability to perfect what GW2 didn't do well. perhaps adding more spells to the hot bar.
Tab targeting seems a little outdated, its not bad by any means, however I wonder if it will stay up to date when Ashes is released
I plan to play some form of bard support class. I imagine that is going to mean my skills will be most useful to my part if im actually landing all of them. While action combat sounds super cool it would also drive me nuts to skill shot out a buff for the tank and a random dps jumps in front of it by accident and the group wipes or something because my good buff with a long cooldown was body blocked. Or perhaps the tank moves last second and misses recieving half their heals. I think as long as there are ways to prevent situations like that from happening with the action combat I will go half and half. If not I'll likely go 75% tab 25% action. Perhaps for classes that are support based mostly you could have the support spells be mostly tab target and have any dps spells be action based?
I feel like the core of your single target rotation sohuld be tab target but the more grand and spectacular spells, mainly AoE, CC etc. should be AC with a lot of skillshots.
Well, i think mostly TT for me, with some directionnal skill or even skillshot (so something hybrid in the end).
If Bdo is an example of action combat, i largely prefer the game don't go this way. I just play a couple of hour, i can't say i was impressed by combat system (well tbh, with gender lock the game had already a bad start for me).
I barely remmeber how GW 2 play, i should try to reinstall it.
I'd probably land on a 70-30 split for Tab to Action style combat. I think what most action style MMOs get completely wrong in their design is the lack of weight to the basic attacks, or auto attack AND most mobs are trash mobs, not enough difficulty. ESO, GW2, even the classic DDO, each of these games are prime examples. In my opinion ESO comes the closest to getting it right. If it wasn't for their horrible servers, the combat might feel much better. From what I've seen of AoC combat the basic left lick or Q attack is too swift and weightless. If you take Apoc for instance, most players just used the fastest possible attacks combined with those ludicrous jumping boots and dodging. It was far too much of a twitchy button mash to me a MMO imo.
If you look at Age of Conan: Unchained, the other AoC, it does a semi action style that I think is worth looking at. I don't think the directional stuff was really all that great but, your weapon swings had a cleave to them. So even if you were targeting one enemy, anything else in your swing path would be hit as well. And to me, thats awesome.
In my dream combat for Ashes of Creation, you guys would ditch the notion of action and go down a more focused tab target route. OR Slow down the combat animations for basic attacks and make them have some weight, and keep a focus on target locking with tab. Like I said, ESO almost has it nailed but I do personally prefer tab target style. Also I don't like healing in ESO. Because the targeting is the way it is, its healing spells are too broad and lots of AoE or auto targeted. It doesn't take much skill to heal in ESO in my opinion vs some other MMOs. You just make sure you're close to your team mates and spam all your heals.
For me, the closest representation to "my fav style" of mmo combat is likely in SWTOR. Good GCD timer, no auto attack but you get a "basic attack" skill that you slot to hot bar, tab target with some cleave skills and AoE.
It could also be interesting to see a "play style" tied to weapon choice. Sword and board could be tab, 2h and dual wield be action, staff be tab, Bows and potion launchers and wands could have a good hybrid choice where you could aim into a reticle aiming system to get more precise head shots with perhaps slower attack speed. Of course all that might be a nightmare to balance.
In the end, hybrid systems always have a draw back of some kind for me. And to that I always prefer to go tab target style. Its more tactical, a bit slower paced and focused. Tab target, with cleave melee weapons, with AoE directed and Cone style spells/skills would be PERFECT for me
I personally backed Ashes because it was tab targeting. I wish you has stuck with your game plan. Most hybrid combat MMOs suck IMO and only a few games have pulled it off. I also think for a PvP game, tab targeting players will be at a disadvantage. My illustration I gave in another thread was this.
Action combat skills are like a gun, fast, short cast times with low or no cool downs. Gun vs Gun fair fight. Tab skills, normally slower combat style to give time to tactics, more like fighting with a baseball bat. Bat vs Bat fair fight. Bat vs Gun, not a fair fight. I have my doubts you will be able to balance this but I will be glad to try the game and see. If it does not work out, I will walk away like I did with GW2 hybrid action combat. Most MMOs that do this hybrid system, it feels flaky.
I also backed this game because it was tab targeting. My heart fell when you made the change to hybrid combat. If I had known, I would not have pledged the Kickstarter.
I think a mixed Hybrid build is what Im going to shoot for, but really Im more interested in the combat being engaging and smooth rather than Action vs Tab-Target.
If an engaging build I want to shoft towards leans one way or another, Im all for it.
I'll probably go mostly action abilities. Most people already told what needs to be said and I agree with many of them. Tho there seems to be confusion about certain things including Ashes being advertised as a tab target game (that was never the case - it was always said to have a hybrid combat system). All in all, I believe hybrid will allow many play styles (which would please both of the crowds who think tab targeting is an outdated system - hence picking mostly action skills and those that are too used to play tab games - hence picking tab skills).
I want to thank Toast and any other devs in advance for reading, and hopefully getting all the way to the end. I’ve been looking forward to this dev discussion for a long time and I picked out key points that I think illustrate where I do and don’t want the system to go.
Action!
I hope you guys make sure the action side of combat is actually action. Some people are calling GW2 a great example of how this game should be and I’m just saying I probably won’t play if that’s where the game lands. It’s already worryingly close in the little bit we’ve seen so far.
The primary difference currently is: GW2, even in “action cam” is literally still a tab target game. All skills, unless AOE, still automatically lock onto the target and you don’t miss. It doesn’t matter what the devs or fans of the game try to say, it literally plays like a tab target game but with the option to target with a fixed reticle instead of a mouse cursor. But in AoC when in action mode you do actually have to aim and it does sort of appear that there are basic attack strings/combos (based on recent footage).
The worst similarity between both games so far is the hot bar. Hot bar combat is boring and tedious. I don’t want to look at my hot bar while I’m fighting! I want to practically forget I’m pressing buttons and be immersed in combat not standing there pressing the same 5 keys!
I’d love if *in addition to, not instead of* the hot bar you also make sure there are combos/strings for your basic attacks. For example: with sword and shield I would like each left click to perform a new strike not just the same swing over and over. Maybe after the 3rd or 4th swing in the combo I can right click for a shield bash. Or alternatively I could hold shift and left click for a heavy swing. And the right click could be to block with the shield. Or switch the buttons in this example to shift block and right click heavy attack, whatever floats your boat just let me do it that way.
Some dissenters in the forums have complained that “true action and true tab cannot coexist” and to that I say “nonsense”.
Yes, you have to take both tab and action skills (no greater than a 75/25 split). Every tab skill can easily be used while in action mode, they just auto target whatever you’re looking at but do less damage.
And every action skill can be used while in tab mode, except perhaps some projectiles that would require aiming. But that’s why that player is playing tab target anyway, they don’t care to aim so they will use AOEs or buffs/debuffs, heals, special abilities, etc for their mandatory 25% action slots.
Steven has already stated that action skills will likely have higher damage or other benefits to make up for them not auto locking like tab skills. There’s no reason why the game cannot play like Vindictus while in Action mode, and play like (choose your tab game of choice) while in tab mode.
I agree with everything you just said, also you explained the gw2 situation better way better than me. Fingers crossed they will manage to make actual ac
Tab here. There's enough going on in the heat of battle already. Having to precisely place an aiming pip isn't on the list of things I want to do.
For enemy targeting, dealing with pip targeting the smallest game model possible while they're jumping non-stop is just silly and frustrating. Positioning should have a place in skillful and strategic combat without turning it into a child's console game. Tab targeting/target locking helps facilitate that.
Also, I hope that combat and support is strategic enough to warrant thoughtful actions. For instance, a point-blank aoe heal certainly has its uses. But I also want to drop a single-target heal on a specific ally at range. Expanding on that, the ability to have click-able unit frames that effectively tab-target allies is a high-value tool. Applying support via aoe effects and pip targeting is a frustrating experience.
Really depends on how its all implemented. Does action feel fluid and responsive, are the servers able to keep up. If we have 100's or more in a fight and the server crawl because of the action based combat, than I would rather have tab based. My preference is tab as I have yet to find an MMO that does action combat that I feel satisfied with, that all felt lacking. And a hybrid method just has me worried.
Quality raiding and PvP is balanced and finely tuned with math and science. Lets take a hard boss kill as an example.
Things are balanced with high precision to using a combination of gear, rotation outputs, player movement, and health. Ideally, the players can just barely defeat the boss if everyone plays a perfect game.
Okay...now assuming skill shots have higher returns than a tab target ability, min/max says go full action-combat and "get good"
How many guilds can field a 40m raid that already executes their dance to perfection? This means a variance of indviduals making 1-3 mistakes of any nature. How many mistakes will be made in a 5 minute fight if all the skills are action based? Dozens.
The healers alone will not be able to heal their raid when it comes time for people to run around like headless chickens.
So what's the obvious answer? Make the raids easier and allow for more player mistakes. Yikes.
Now I can see the other side of the coin. Rangers will have fun and shine more brilliantly if given manual fire. Other classes won't.
The hybrid can be done....but if only you as the devs decide before hand which roles benefit more and less from it, and min/max that accordingly.
tl;dr. Don't punish healers with an inferior heal just because they have to deal with the headless chickens running around while screaming for heals. Action/Tab should definetly be favored in specific classes. Don't default to the action be the superior skill.
I couldn't have said it better. Please don't punish us healers! I can't pretend to sit here and say which type of combat I'm going to use because I haven't played the game yet to know what I prefer. The question is a little premature imho.
Idealistic answer: As much action-based stuff as possible, if I'm playing as a melee character. And probably half-and-half as a ranged character. I like dynamic weighty attacks and mobility and dodging, and all that actiony stuff. Not so much a fan of constantly having to aim or miss. (I could be wrong, but I would expect a full-action-based ranged build to be more difficult and frustrating. I'm not tryna play an FPS.)
Realistic answer: I'll try out lots of builds and play around with both action-based and tab-based skills. But in the end, I'll have to settle on whatever works best, or is the strongest. Being strong/effective are more important to me than having a more action-y build. Quick progress and lots of winning are more fun in the long run.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tab here. There's enough going on in the heat of battle already. Having to precisely place an aiming pip isn't on the list of things I want to do.
For enemy targeting, dealing with pip targeting the smallest game model possible while they're jumping non-stop is just silly and frustrating. Positioning should have a place in skillful and strategic combat without turning it into a child's console game. Tab targeting/target locking helps facilitate that.
Phew right, standing still and watching cooldowns while you and 500 other people auto-target a boss until it finally runs out of health is exhilarating. Lol
Precisely aiming a reticle is not what action combat is all about. In BDO, the reticle is useful in some instances sure, but in many cases you use skills that have a wide arc or AOE. And for melee classes it’s literally just pointing out the center of your attacks and you absolutely can turn the reticle off because it’s not needed. In Vindictus there isn’t even a reticle at all. Both games have very fun, *fluid*, exciting and immersive combat systems that are truly action.
And yet in neither game does your notion of “dealing with pip targeting the smallest game model possible when they’re jumping nonstop” exist. But as long as my action combat is in the game the way I’d like, I want you to have the ability to tab target so you can enjoy the game your way as well. Both can exist side by side with a bit stronger damage and possibly more potent effects as a reward for aimed skills.
Action for sure. As an MMO I feel immersion and fluidity are some key factors for good gameplay, I love to feel like I am my character and tab just doesn’t cut it imo. Tab for me has always felt clunky no matter the game and I feel it slows down combat just a bit too much for me
Comments
I also don't think there's an issue with just choosing one system if the hybrid system is too difficult to implement.
The first reason and my most important reason is that AC requires a lot more skill than TT and from many different aspects. The most obvious skill requirement compared to TT is aiming. You can have all the knowledge of what skill to use in what situation and rotating skill cooldowns, but if you miss that can be detrimental. This adds a whole new level of skill compare to TT. Another skill requirement is dodging. It requires knowledge of your surroundings, seeing who is aiming at you, timing your dodge at the right time, making sure you are dodging to a safe place, etc. Sure you could have active dodging in TT with iframes but its not the same as AC as AC requires timing. In addition there is also the possiblity of hitting players mid dodge animation which is another skill requirement. Another requirement is positioning. Since hitting players will skills requires precise aiming, being positioned to make that easier is a skill requirement in its own. This is even more ephasised if you can position to place where its harder for the enemy to aim at yourself. For example being positioned above the enemy like on a roof of a building. Additionally since players will be aiming at what they are trying to hit, flanking from behind is much more important, so positioning yourself behind the enemy as a flanker or assassin is advantageous. This also means having the respawn base advantegeously positioned is an even more of an important factor.
The second reason I find it more fun is because I find it more immersive. This is somewhat hard for me to describe so this is my best attempt. Since you have to actively use the crosshair to aim, in AC, it feels more realistic and therefore more immersive. Compared to TT where you just press one button to change who you are targeting too.
For me I enjoyed BDO's combat the most. Now I know BDO's combat had a lot of issues but a lot of the issues brought up are about the balancing of the combat and not the core combat system itself, which had some goods aspects that ashes should take into consideration. Firstly what BDO did bring was fluid animations, especially when transitioning to the next skill (comboing) and hitting players will skills feeling impactful. On top of this BDO also had a good blocking and frontal guard system. For the blocking it was a button you press to actively block with the block range being around a cone (~160 degrees) infront of you. What made it so good was that you could transition from one skill to quickly block if you needed to, as well as the animation to transition to the block stance being smooth. The block also had a certain amount of health which a slow regeneration so if it was zero/nearly depleted it meant you were in a vulnerable state. For the frontal guard system it was like the block (health connected and cone being the same) but activated when using a skill. This meant it was even more of an important factor of flankers to flank from behind. As for the dodging BDO had many different variation such as back dodge, iframe dodge, super armor dodge (not being CCed but skill take damage), a back dodge while firing arrows (or some sort of damage skill), teleport, jump, sprint, etc. If these were in a TT combat system, only the iframe and super armor dodge would really be effective.
Overall all the different skill aspects and requirements that AC brings, as well as being more immersive, is why I find AC more fun that TT. Like how AoC has taken parts (systems and mechanics) from many different MMORPGs and modernise them, I think its a good idea for AoC to take the best parts of AC MMORPGs (even if the combat system has some flaws like BDO) and do the same thing.
Don't go too wild on the mobility on all classes, some classes should of course have some in order to have a huge impact on a fight, but rangers (myself), mages, summoners, clerics should really have reduced mobility, but this should be compensated with good peeling strategies/abilities. A combat system where all classes have a lot of mobility reduces their dependence on other classes/roles making it more a solo oriented game. I really want the team fights like you are really depending on the other people in the team and making combinations of certain attack/ability patterns really powerful which rewards good team play over good solo skills. But a good player should still be able to fight 2-4 people if their team work is bad and don't know how to combine their abilities.
I would also welcome really long cast abilities that can do a huge impact on a fight, even consuming rare materials from bosses to cast them. This will make players real targets in fights (instead of "KILL THE HEALER!!!") which means a solid defensive strategy to be set up in order to protect your teammates.
As for the other classes it would probably depend on what the content was. If I was on my ranged DPS that I bring for raids, I would probably have a hybrid of single target set to tab while aoe would be action if nothing else but for flavor. The idea of aiming a fireball down a narrow tunnel for maximum effect sounds addictive. However, if I was playing melee DPS I would probably have most attacks set to action just to feel like I'm really in the thick of a fight.
When it comes to PVP I would imagine having almost everything set to tab-target. It would be fun to aim a bow, or wand, at the approaching enemy, but the stress of losing my Free Hold because I decided to mess around with aiming rather than allowing the engine to target for me is too high. The sad part, like all MMOs, the level of fun a system brings will revolve around PVP. There is always that one player who ruins the fun for everyone because of an exploit they discovered. Still, that is the nature of the beast and hopefully IS can find a way to truly balance it in Ashes.
Before I get jumped on by the passionate mob, when I say lose my Free Hold, I'm talking about the location it is currently sitting. I know that I'll be able to plant it down elsewhere in the world, but the idea of doing that when I'm already in my "ideal location" doesn't sit well with me and would take the fun out of using a hybrid system when I'll want to use max damage at all times rather than taking a chance on missing due to lack of skill/lag/BS dodge mechanics/etc.
Pro Tab Targeting (TT):
TT seems like it would be more lag tolerant because it isn't so sensitive to the exact positioning and timing. I suspect that 250v250 or 500v500 PvP could push the limits of server loading and individual ping, making tab target more desirable, as lag could make AC pointless. I don't have the data that the devs have, so I can only speculate.
Pro Action Combat (AC):
If I duck into hard cover then I don't like the idea of a TT fireball ghosting through the wall and exploding on me. It would reduce the immersion, especially with a long missile flight time.
I also understand that there are a number of players that would prefer just TT but feel that they would need to use AC to not be disadvantaged by the extra damage promised for AC. The TT/AC issue has many aspects.
For me Personaly the pace of the combat is very important, for Example in Bdo its very fast with much dashes and fast pace abilitys, for example in WOW its a very slow medium pace Combat (What i Prefer) to combine both is nearly impossible so there will be people that doesnt like the combat in AOC but still i think its a good approach for a Combat System and i Relly hope they handle it and create some nice shit.
(Sry for bad English)
For example, if the Tabb ability always garantys a Hit, doging becomes virtually usles.
However if the Tabb abillity works mor like a aim Assistent (which you can activat a choice), doging may even be strictly better than blocking.
That being said, I think that there also needs to be a power balance similiar to the Moba LOL, where point to klick skills usualy do less dmg, have lower cc duration etc. than skillshots.
How quickly does a skill shot get from the limit of the casters range to the target? The travel time of skill shots combined with the size of the hit boxes and skills as well as the number of and responsiveness of movement/evasion skills will determine whether or not I use AC over TT for ranged combat. If I'm missing a substantial number of my shots for reasons outside of my own bad aim, frustration will push me towards TT.
Is there going to be a natural cleave/puncture mechanic for melee weapons? Is there going to be an AOE cap? If my melee attacks are getting body blocked by a tank while I'm attempting to target the healer (or whomever), while dope as hell, this is going to have to be a universal aspect of the melee combat system and not capable of being circumvented by simply TTing the healer.
As far as an AOE cap goes: If there is a limit to the number of people affected by an AOE spell, there should be some method of prioritization within the spells configurable design. In other words, if I want this Meteor Shower to hit the squishies, it's going to be a real shame if it primarily hits the burlies courtesy of RNG. Not sure what this AOE thing has to do with AC versus TT, but there ya have it.
In the end, I don't believe the decision to lean in one direction over the other should be something that changes the limit of what you're capable of. The system should be designed for average player balance; Not taking into account the skill shot gods. A long TTK, as is planned, will also help with this. If a few missed skill shots don't equate to a near automatic loss of the combat, AC will be much more utilized.
I don't think this flows smoothly...whatever...
Have a good day!
I played mainly TT mmos like wow but I don't mind a switch as long as the combat is done right.
Many people think AT is more fluid and overall more fun to play than TT, but that is completely wrong, TT if done well can be immensely fun and engaging to play with.
We all know that combat is one if not the most important thing in the game, so whether you stick to this hybrid style you guys are planning or change it during testing as long it feels right I'm ok with it.
In the end it does not matter whether it's AT or TT, it just needs to feel good.
Action!
I hope you guys make sure the action side of combat is actually action. Some people are calling GW2 a great example of how this game should be and I’m just saying I probably won’t play if that’s where the game lands. It’s already worryingly close in the little bit we’ve seen so far.
The primary difference currently is: GW2, even in “action cam” is literally still a tab target game. All skills, unless AOE, still automatically lock onto the target and you don’t miss. It doesn’t matter what the devs or fans of the game try to say, it literally plays like a tab target game but with the option to target with a fixed reticle instead of a mouse cursor. But in AoC when in action mode you do actually have to aim and it does sort of appear that there are basic attack strings/combos (based on recent footage).
The worst similarity between both games so far is the hot bar. Hot bar combat is boring and tedious. I don’t want to look at my hot bar while I’m fighting! I want to practically forget I’m pressing buttons and be immersed in combat not standing there pressing the same 5 keys!
I’d love if *in addition to, not instead of* the hot bar you also make sure there are combos/strings for your basic attacks. For example: with sword and shield I would like each left click to perform a new strike not just the same swing over and over. Maybe after the 3rd or 4th swing in the combo I can right click for a shield bash. Or alternatively I could hold shift and left click for a heavy swing. And the right click could be to block with the shield. Or switch the buttons in this example to shift block and right click heavy attack, whatever floats your boat just let me do it that way.
Some dissenters in the forums have complained that “true action and true tab cannot coexist” and to that I say “nonsense”.
Yes, you have to take both tab and action skills (no greater than a 75/25 split). Every tab skill can easily be used while in action mode, they just auto target whatever you’re looking at but do less damage.
And every action skill can be used while in tab mode, except perhaps some projectiles that would require aiming. But that’s why that player is playing tab target anyway, they don’t care to aim so they will use AOEs or buffs/debuffs, heals, special abilities, etc for their mandatory 25% action slots.
Steven has already stated that action skills will likely have higher damage or other benefits to make up for them not auto locking like tab skills. There’s no reason why the game cannot play like Vindictus while in Action mode, and play like (choose your tab game of choice) while in tab mode.
Tab targeting seems a little outdated, its not bad by any means, however I wonder if it will stay up to date when Ashes is released
If Bdo is an example of action combat, i largely prefer the game don't go this way. I just play a couple of hour, i can't say i was impressed by combat system (well tbh, with gender lock the game had already a bad start for me).
I barely remmeber how GW 2 play, i should try to reinstall it.
If you look at Age of Conan: Unchained, the other AoC, it does a semi action style that I think is worth looking at. I don't think the directional stuff was really all that great but, your weapon swings had a cleave to them. So even if you were targeting one enemy, anything else in your swing path would be hit as well. And to me, thats awesome.
In my dream combat for Ashes of Creation, you guys would ditch the notion of action and go down a more focused tab target route. OR Slow down the combat animations for basic attacks and make them have some weight, and keep a focus on target locking with tab. Like I said, ESO almost has it nailed but I do personally prefer tab target style. Also I don't like healing in ESO. Because the targeting is the way it is, its healing spells are too broad and lots of AoE or auto targeted. It doesn't take much skill to heal in ESO in my opinion vs some other MMOs. You just make sure you're close to your team mates and spam all your heals.
For me, the closest representation to "my fav style" of mmo combat is likely in SWTOR. Good GCD timer, no auto attack but you get a "basic attack" skill that you slot to hot bar, tab target with some cleave skills and AoE.
It could also be interesting to see a "play style" tied to weapon choice. Sword and board could be tab, 2h and dual wield be action, staff be tab, Bows and potion launchers and wands could have a good hybrid choice where you could aim into a reticle aiming system to get more precise head shots with perhaps slower attack speed. Of course all that might be a nightmare to balance.
In the end, hybrid systems always have a draw back of some kind for me. And to that I always prefer to go tab target style. Its more tactical, a bit slower paced and focused. Tab target, with cleave melee weapons, with AoE directed and Cone style spells/skills would be PERFECT for me
Action combat skills are like a gun, fast, short cast times with low or no cool downs. Gun vs Gun fair fight. Tab skills, normally slower combat style to give time to tactics, more like fighting with a baseball bat. Bat vs Bat fair fight. Bat vs Gun, not a fair fight. I have my doubts you will be able to balance this but I will be glad to try the game and see. If it does not work out, I will walk away like I did with GW2 hybrid action combat. Most MMOs that do this hybrid system, it feels flaky.
If an engaging build I want to shoft towards leans one way or another, Im all for it.
I agree with everything you just said, also you explained the gw2 situation better way better than me. Fingers crossed they will manage to make actual ac
For enemy targeting, dealing with pip targeting the smallest game model possible while they're jumping non-stop is just silly and frustrating. Positioning should have a place in skillful and strategic combat without turning it into a child's console game. Tab targeting/target locking helps facilitate that.
Also, I hope that combat and support is strategic enough to warrant thoughtful actions. For instance, a point-blank aoe heal certainly has its uses. But I also want to drop a single-target heal on a specific ally at range. Expanding on that, the ability to have click-able unit frames that effectively tab-target allies is a high-value tool. Applying support via aoe effects and pip targeting is a frustrating experience.
I couldn't have said it better. Please don't punish us healers! I can't pretend to sit here and say which type of combat I'm going to use because I haven't played the game yet to know what I prefer. The question is a little premature imho.
Realistic answer: I'll try out lots of builds and play around with both action-based and tab-based skills. But in the end, I'll have to settle on whatever works best, or is the strongest. Being strong/effective are more important to me than having a more action-y build. Quick progress and lots of winning are more fun in the long run.
Phew right, standing still and watching cooldowns while you and 500 other people auto-target a boss until it finally runs out of health is exhilarating. Lol
Precisely aiming a reticle is not what action combat is all about. In BDO, the reticle is useful in some instances sure, but in many cases you use skills that have a wide arc or AOE. And for melee classes it’s literally just pointing out the center of your attacks and you absolutely can turn the reticle off because it’s not needed. In Vindictus there isn’t even a reticle at all. Both games have very fun, *fluid*, exciting and immersive combat systems that are truly action.
And yet in neither game does your notion of “dealing with pip targeting the smallest game model possible when they’re jumping nonstop” exist. But as long as my action combat is in the game the way I’d like, I want you to have the ability to tab target so you can enjoy the game your way as well. Both can exist side by side with a bit stronger damage and possibly more potent effects as a reward for aimed skills.