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Tab Target? Really?!

So all this potential...all of this great content, all of this hype of changing MMORPG's and moving on from what has failed, and we are using tab target??? Look I know there are a few that this isn't game breaking for, but I know for a fact there are many this is going to drive away. I started playing MMORPG's back in the SWG era and I've watched gaming go from non skill tab target/ easy mode gaming to what it's morphing into for the last 5 years. Skill pvp is a requirement in my opinion. It is mind boggling that you would go that direction? Tell me I'm halucinating or having a nightmare when I'm watching these gameplay vids. Tab target or aim assist right? Really.......I hope it's possible to change course on that and I hope you do a bit more research on what a majority of gamers would want when it comes to competitive pvp in a game of this type.
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Comments

  • Stevey boy already confirmed that it's not 100% tab target. Either way, it's wayyyy too early to judge. We haven't seen much, and a lot is still subject to change.
  • Things can always change but as of now it's tab target.

    To me, the sad thing is it seems like they know tab target is a step back. They don't mention it at all in the "About the game" section and when ask about it they seem to be quick to add the 'but' part to it.

    I'm eager to learn more about the mobility and positioning part.
  • I think Tab target is okay.
    Action combat has some downsides to it. I like it of course, it feels great, but as soon as my opponent desyncs just a bit or lags in general, pvp becomes a real mess. When the combat goes from fluid to "wonky" because of network issues (that are a thing in MMO's, wether one likes it or not).

    Not to mention that all recent action combat MMO's went the niche route, its just not appealing for the majority as it seems, even though the eager gamer who finds himself in this forum might argue otherwise.

    I always liked the tab target system in PvP especially WoW, it felt really responsive and you could play tactical. Chain CC that was really precise, well timed makro usage for interrupts and the likes. It always did what you wanted to do.

    On the other hand, I played a bit of BDO...and it frequently happened that skills that should've hit didn't, that I rubberbanded back into a grapple, people dashing through me and so on.
    It's also really hard to see what skill is coming, what reach it has and so on. Wildstar tried it with telegraphs, which I enjoyed but it also broke the immersion kinda even though it did fit right into the "sci-fi" setting. Still unimaginable in a high fantasy MMO.

    little quote in the end:"The harder the combat is, the harder it is for the non-combat types to stick with the game."
    An MMO should have a great combat system, which is in depth, but it should focus more on the old aspects if you'd ask me, world building, socializing, meaningfull progression and so on.

    I don't want to advertise either combat style, but there are pros and cons for both.
    (just as a sidenote, I prefer action combat in PvE. It looks and feels great.)
  • I'm happy they are going with a Tab Target system. Action MMOs are typically gimmicky and I'd rather them focus on other cool features rather than spend all their time trying to manage a gimmicky system that is bound to have issues.
  • Almost everyone I know that has played both and played both for years say there is no comparison to FPS twitch vs tab target button smash garbage, myself included of course. Someone above said they enjoy CC and so forth...if I could sum up what is the biggest culprit of suck in tab target it would be CC. I mean really what can take less skill then just stunning the shit out of someone until they die. How about you use your positioning and twitch movement and true skill to REALLY win a fight. Once you feel the true adrenaline from a real fight where you know if you win it's because you are truly better than the person and it's not because you chained 3 gay stuns or you had some purple gear that you received from some no skill dungeon...come back and tell me that wasn't more enjoyable. You won't i promise.
  • Personally, I have nothing against tab targeting in MMORPGs.
    I feel like it's probably the best way to go with this type of game, and non-tab targeting fits something like FPS much better. Or in general, a game that has only one type of combat, melee or ranged. In MMORPGs, you generally have a mix of both. Not being able to tab target gives ranged players certain disadvantage, as they not only have to aim but also take enemy's movement more into consideration, where as melee characters have it easier as they stay close to their target and thus have easier time on landing their hits. Imagine trying to play Skyrim as a PvP game while being a mage, and trying to land those slow moving fireballs on your opponent. Imagine how easy time they'd have dodging them. Exaggerated example, for sure, but I hope you get where I'm coming from.
    beretta7 mentions that tab target gaming has no skill involved, but I'd beg to disagree (to extend). FPS game skill is more based on precision, where as tab target combat is more about timing, using right ability at right moment, tactical thinking, clever usage of abilities. Both of course benefit from quick reaction timing and forward-thinking as well. I of course go on the assumption that just because it will be tab targeting system, it won't be brainless button-smashing system, there's a difference between the two.
  • baretta7 you're speaking as if you already tried out the game and combat sucks. Like come on, try it out first? GW2 and ArcheAge are both tab targeting and they have one of the best combat systems an MMO could have.

    Now let's talk about BDO's awesome non-targeting action combat and the problems that brings such as desync.
  • ""Look at WoW, it is tab-targeting but it has different playstyles with it’s classes, even inside classes if you look at the later states.
    You got rather immobile mages that stand still most of the time to cast, but you had specs where you could run nearly nonstop while casting.
    You had hunters that later on >>never<< needed to stay still for anything except 1-2 skills in one of the 3 specs which you have in free-aim action combat too.
    I never felt much difference there to Tera for example. The only difference i found was the active block and the seperate skill of dodging that was universal to all classes. That’s the only thing WoW never had as it’s own thing, each class had it’s own mobility skills for that.
    That’s really what sets actioncombat apart from “tabtargeting style games”?
    There are other examples like ArcheAge that were terrible, but it only shows that it is not tab-targeting that is the problem imo.""

    Tab target needs no skill?
    Tab target needs no positioning?
    Tab target CC is a shallow easy win?
    Tab target is button smashing?

    It would be great if you actually brought examples where this is the case, because it certainly isn't universal.

    Tab target is just that, you tab to target, it does nothing else by definition, telling me it needs no skill because you tab to target is incomprehensible to me, because what kind of skill do you need to keep a crosshair SOMEWHAT on your enemie? That's skill?

    How do you NOT need positioning in "tab target" games? Elaborate, your statement is so wonky and not saying anything really except to state your own personal disdain from no mentioned experience.

    Range is a real thing in tab targeting games, so is line of sight and positional awarenes where a skill can go. Where is the difference to non tab target? You need to "aim"? I played Tera and "aiming" as a ranged is just.. well.. limiting at best because I have to keep my enemies SOMEWHERE in the middle, it will hit anyway as long as it's somewhat close.

    Tab target CC is easy win?
    Yeah let's talk about non tab target cc, hellooooo BDO, stun dead. the end. Okay? Uhm, yeah.. those ccs are so hard to hit too...wait.. no they are not.
    It has nothing to do with Tab target, that's the combat system.

    WoW had a good and healthy amount of CC, it was there, and depending on how you use it, it's impact could vary, but it never decided anything on it's own. At best it finished what you already started.
    Ever played Aion? You are telling me CC simply wins by default?
    If I remember correctly Perfect World was good in that regard too, but my memory of it is rather lacking, so don't take this too serious.

    Tab target is button smashing? Again, what the hell is BDO then? Again it has nothing to do with tab target, but the combat system accompaning it.
    How is A Tera ranger any different from a WoW hunter? How is a Ninjas "hit spacebar 20 times in a row" any different from buttonsmashing?
    Again, that's the combat system, it has nothing to do with tab targeting.

    So as AeonAuron said
    [quote quote=5053]you’re speaking as if you already tried out the game and combat sucks. Like come on, try it out first?[/quote]
  • [quote quote=5046] Once you feel the true adrenaline from a real fight where you know if you win it’s because you are truly better than the person and it’s not because you chained 3 gay stuns or you had some purple gear that you received from some no skill dungeon…come back and tell me that wasn’t more enjoyable. You won’t i promise.
    [/quote]

    Lets get back from assumption town, okay ?

    I have played pretty much every MMO of the last decade, as well as almost ervery FPS, many beat'em'ups, fighters, mobas and dungeon crawlers.
    And still, I like the tactical approach of tab target, as someone else said, its just precision, you tab to your target, no need to aim.
    Positioning, timing, reaction and so on is still a thing, not sure where the hate is coming from.

    BDO for example has heavy desync issues, fights look weird and if you ever faced a giant you know what CC chains look like in an action type MMO.
    By CC I meant coordinated CC with your team, not the BDO style of 5 people spamming AOE and bursting blobs of people, thats what I meant with tactical approach.

    Looking at BDOs current pvp which looks really impressive (graphical wise) but still feels odd. People die in 1 stun (if it hits...stun resist is a thing duh). So people dashing away and I-framing through skills untill their oneshot combo is ready again, which usally starts with some kind of stun.
    I didn't find that particularly fun to play.

    Talking about no skill dungeons...I'm not sure, coordinating 10-25 people is pretty hard and takes a lot of skill, as many people can't even do current content in WoW, so I consider that an invalid argument.
  • I have also played MMOs over the last decade. Some of my most fond memories happened in tab target games like wow and swtor. When this game said it was going to be tab target, i didn't really care at first but i'm starting to think differently.

    To start with, this game is going to be compared to wow because it has the same monthly cost and it provides tab target combat. Maybe they will show us some completely different for combat then what wow has but i have not seen it yet. If this game gets compared to wow, it's probably going to lose. No matter what wow will always have that 16+ years of development time advantage.

    This might be lazy of me but look at the success of overwatch. I only bring this up because i know it's broken up some wow raiding guilds. It has already sold more copies then wow ever has but has so much less gameplay. People seem to be playing it because of the characters and how fun they are to play. Now look at the character kits, most of them have 3-4 abilities and an ultimate. Could you translate that into a tab target game and have it be so successful? If it can do so much with so little, image what we would get if a studio could translate that into an MMORPG with 2-4x the abilities. NOTE: there would be a higher Time to kill so don't try to use that against me.

    I know there are some that fear free aim system because the aren't good at it or think it will become some twitchy MLG 360 no scope bullshit but to those who have are comfortable with both, i plea for you to really look into this and think critically on it. Maybe i'm just scaring myself.

    If you want some more ideas of what it could be like, i'd look at crowfall and darkfall siege videos. I know many haven't played darkfall and it wasn't the most welcoming game but the did free aim different then every other MMO on the market. The game let didn't try to limit rage abilities and it created the best siege battles i have ever seen. Darkfall was far from perfect but i think we can learn from it.

    I end with an observation i made in the community discord. if you look, most people are playing bdo or some other shooter style game. i saw 1 person playing wow, 1 person playing ffXIV, and several playing gw2. I also didn't scroll completely down and it's work hours so maybe it's a poor observation.
  • Oh I'm so glad it isn't the weeb-fest that is the "action" mmos that they keep putting out! Those are complete trash and just become massive button mashers.
  • I'll add my thoughts to the discussion even though it's pretty much been covered.

    Both tab-targeting and free aim systems have their advantages and disadvantages. <em>Generally speaking</em>, free aim systems feel faster, imply more mobility and require faster reaction times. Also <em>generally speaking</em>, tab-targeting systems feel more thoughtful, have more planning, and are more accessible in my opinion (I have a friend who is one-handed, so accessibility is a sticking point with me).

    That being said, there are so many different ways to implement a targeting system that it's almost certainly dependent on how it's implementing and what is built around it. For example, I've been playing ESO recently and I think it's a fairly decent combination of both tab-targeting and free aim (could it be improved upon? sure). On the other hand, there are games that do a terrible job of tab-targeting and a terrible job at free aiming.

    In the end, the following questions need to be asked when considering a targeting implementation:
    - Do you want the user experience to be focused on placing a skill correctly or applying the right skill for the situation?
    - Personally, I favor the ability to apply the right skill for the situation, but this can be done in either tab-targeting or in a free aim system.

    - Is the player able to target the right enemy with ease?
    - Again, it depends on the implementation, but with free aim, you need to have a very solid experience with the camera system, field of view, range-finding, and so forth. With tab-targeting, you need an effective system in place for acquiring the right target for the situation, whether initiated by being attacked, nearest target, nearest friendly, lowest-health friendly, lowest-health enemy, etc. That experience needs to be consistent and sensible to the user.

    - How accessible do you want your system to be to different levels of player skill, coordination, and group play?
    - This is one where it generally differs in free aim vs. tab-targeting. Tab-targeting <em>feels</em> more accessible than free aim because it generally ends up in a slower-paced combat system, but that could be changed. When it comes to group play and coordination, you want everyone in the group to benefit from the interaction and have similar benefits in my opinion. For example, if someone has amazing reaction time and target acquisition in a game based purely on free aim, they probably won't benefit as much from a group (and sometimes are even better than a group of average players). I think that's a problem, but I'm open to arguments against that.

    - How much of a gap do you want there to be between minimum viability and maximum viability based solely on a player's ability to target?
    - This is a tricky one that is best described in FPS terms. Typically, a person who can acquire and aim at a target faster is (all else being equal) going to be a more effective player, sometimes even if they may use a less effective tool/skill (think knives vs guns in CoD). Does the design team want this to be a major determining factor in player effectiveness or not.
  • [quote quote=5046]Once you feel the true adrenaline from a real fight where you know if you win it’s because you are truly better than the person and it’s not because you chained 3 gay stuns
    [/quote]

    Only the gayest of stuns will do! I don't see why you think the only way to get a "victory rush" type feeling is through free aim. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who will say that that adrenaline rush comes from rapidly moving their mouse. That feeling comes from close calls or narrow victories or even defeats occasionally. You also seem to be implying that the only measure of skill is aiming rather then timing or clever use of your tool kit, such as [Gay Stun]. :P

    To add my two cents to the mix, I agree with what Nikodemus said. In a game with many ways to approach combat there has to be some way to maintain balance for classes and players otherwise you will end up with everyone playing the same class or classes and the lack of variety would be a nail in the coffin for a game like this.
    Personally, I am the worst FPS player. The. Worst. If am playing an MMO I enjoy I don't want to be unable of enjoy other aspects of the game simply because I can't MLG360noscope like my little brother. It comes down to accessibility in the end as Shikya mentioned. If you favor one side or the other (and this goes for so many different aspects of a game) you begin to exclude the players that favor one or the other. Just remember, this is an MMO, by design it has to appeal to many MANY players. It's not what I want, not what you want, not what he/she/it/gender neutral snowbeing wants. It is what WE want. Or as close as we can get to a balance between the players of the game.
    Lastly, I'd say that I feel tab targeting (in one form or another) just works better in this type of game.
  • @Shikya

    -I feel like a portion your argument is in the way we have seen systems implemented but you obviously know that those preferences can be translated into a free aiming system. If you are having troubles imagining it, i'd check out what crowfall is trying to make. I think it's closer to a traditional tab target system then many other free aim games and has a very similar to flow.

    -I think you can have both placing the ability in the correct place and choosing the correct ability. Free aim systems usually add more depth to this decision as how easy an ability is to hit with will be part of this choice.

    -From a UX perspective i want to say that free aim is more intuitive. Your mouse is bound to your camera at all times and your abilities go in the direction you are looking. With tab target, you move your camera by holding down right click, letting go of right click so you get your cursor, clicking on your target, and start pressing abilities. I also have a friend/co-worker with one arm and he plays both kinds of games.

    -Viability is something that can vary off class/build choice. Just like tab targeting where you can design classes to be easier or harder you can do the same with free aim. You can have abilities that are more forgiving with aoe components and other abilities that require more precision.

    -In the end, i think we both agree that the game needs to feel good. My argument is that giving people the freedom to use there abilities anytime, anywhere, and in any direction will positively impact player experience by giving the player an extra sense of control. I also think free aiming opens up design and allows things like different projectile types. You can put gravity on abilities so arrows fly more naturally. It breaks the need to limit range abilities to ~30 meters which opens up more gameplay options and is great for sieges. I also feel like the biggest reason some object it is because of a lack of experience and a fear of not being able to compete which i find to be bogus. Just because the game uses aiming doesn't mean this game will be cod and ran by 8 year olds.
  • @Shikya

    -I feel like a portion your argument is in the way we have seen systems implemented but you obviously know that those preferences can be translated into a free aiming system. If you are having troubles imagining it, i'd check out what crowfall is trying to make. I think it's closer to a traditional tab target system then many other free aim games and has a very similar to flow.

    -I think you can have both placing the ability in the correct place and choosing the correct ability. Free aim systems usually add more depth to this decision as how easy an ability is to hit with will be part of this choice.

    -From a UX perspective i want to say that free aim is more intuitive. Your mouse is bound to your camera at all times and your abilities go in the direction you are looking. With tab target, you move your camera by holding down right click, letting go of right click so you get your cursor, clicking on your target, and start pressing abilities. I also have a friend/co-worker with one arm and he plays both kinds of games.

    -Viability is something that can vary off class/build choice. Just like tab targeting where you can design classes to be easier or harder you can do the same with free aim. You can have abilities that are more forgiving with aoe components and other abilities that require more precision.

    -In the end, i think we both agree that the game needs to feel good. My argument is that giving people the freedom to use there abilities anytime, anywhere, and in any direction will positively impact player experience by giving the player an extra sense of control. I also think free aiming opens up design and allows things like different projectile types. You can put gravity on abilities so arrows fly more naturally. It breaks the need to limit range abilities to ~30 meters which opens up more gameplay options and is great for sieges. I also feel like the biggest reason some object it is because of a lack of experience and a fear of not being able to compete which i find to be bogus.
  • [quote quote=5037]So all this potential…all of this great content, all of this hype of changing MMORPG’s and moving on from what has failed, and we are using tab target??? Look I know there are a few that this isn’t game breaking for, but I know for a fact there are many this is going to drive away. I started playing MMORPG’s back in the SWG era and I’ve watched gaming go from non skill tab target/ easy mode gaming to what it’s morphing into for the last 5 years. Skill pvp is a requirement in my opinion. It is mind boggling that you would go that direction? Tell me I’m halucinating or having a nightmare when I’m watching these gameplay vids. Tab target or aim assist right? Really…….I hope it’s possible to change course on that and I hope you do a bit more research on what a majority of gamers would want when it comes to competitive pvp in a game of this type.

    [/quote]

    Not trying to be rude, but your anecdotal evidence is not a basis for "most gamers" wanting it one way. Nor it gospel when you and your friend's preach that FPS >>>>>>>>>> than non-twitch.

    Also, the notion that tab targeting is non-skill falls under either the category of borderline asinine or intentionally disingenuous. The act of hitting the tab key is certainly easier than aiming your cross-hairs, but your implication is that combat with tab targeting is 0 skill which is just 100% false. The skill focus just changes from "twitch" skill to more tactical skill.

    I've played MMO's since before SWG, both tab targeting and those with action combat. Both systems work given the right environment, but imo tab targeting works better for a game like this for a myriad of reasons. Not the least of which is revolves around server and client side performance when there are 400 people in a single area flinging spells at each other which environmental objects (like a town) being destroyed.
  • @Affy

    I feel like you fell into the same trap as the person you were replying to. Just because there is aiming, doesn't mean the game is "twitchy" and you don't add any tactics to the game by making it tab target. If anything, the lack of collision decreases how "tactical" you have to be. In most tab target games you only need to worry about being with in line of site and range of the enemy with no consideration for the characters between you and your target.

    I'd be interested in hearing your reasons you think tab targeting is better for this game. If this game was a pve raid progression game then i could see the argument that tab target is better but, at least when it comes to combat, this game seems to be appealing more to the pvp audience. Pvp audience is naturally more competitive and i could see the extra level of complexity that aiming adds to gameplay being desired.
  • Action Combat?

    I mean, I love Black Desert Online's Action Combat but pvp wise? It's more like mashing buttos and what not.

    Tab Target is old, but it gets the job done.

    I just hope that fights are longer and more like medieval where group can function in a formation, etc etc
    not like Archeage where a fight can be finished in one combo.
  • - Double posted accidentally, delete-
  • [quote quote=5082]<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/affy/" rel="nofollow">@affy</a>

    I feel like you fell into the same trap as the person you were replying to. Just because there is aiming, doesn’t mean the game is “twitchy” and you don’t add any tactics to the game by making it tab target. If anything, the lack of collision decreases how “tactical” you have to be. In most tab target games you only need to worry about being with in line of site and range of the enemy with no consideration for the characters between you and your target.

    I’d be interested in hearing your reasons you think tab targeting is better for this game. If this game was a pve raid progression game then i could see the argument that tab target is better but, at least when it comes to combat, this game seems to be appealing more to the pvp audience. Pvp audience is naturally more competitive and i could see the extra level of complexity that aiming adds to gameplay being desired.

    [/quote]

    Give us a good example of an MMORPG action game that gets the job done right.
  • I know I'll probably be stoned for saying so, but as an old man with crap reflexes, I for one love tab targeting.

    /em ducks for cover
  • I was speaking more in specific terms of the OP. Twitch style like an FPS vs. Traditional MMO tab targeting. There are certainly less twitchy aim oriented MMO's, original Darkfall comes to mind, but I didn't think that fit the context of the thread.

    I wouldn't be against an aim system like Darkfall, but overall I do think tab targeting is better for games of this nature for 2 reasons.

    Performance - I have yet to find a MMO's which could handle hundreds of people in combat within a single area performing to a standard that would make some form of aim based combat anything less than rage inducing ; at least not without various restrictions placed like that area being instanced and having a population cap.. Perhaps that will come along one day, but I haven't seen it yet. Aim mechanics require both good server and client side performance, and anytime there is a blip on either then any aim you have is pointless. Even a game like like Guild Wars 2 which has overall good performance in their largest PvP arenas (WvWvW) are on instanced servers with population caps. If large scale fights are not held in both a separate instance with population caps (2 things I personally wouldn't want to see) then there is just a lot of potential for things outside of your skills with the cross hair to take effect.

    The Cluster - Assuming that AoC could emulate Guild Wars 2's performance without the need for separate instances/population caps then there are still additional issues. It's one thing to play a game like Overwatch where it's 6v6 in a wide open arena, and it's another to have 200-300 people fighting each other in the same area. Aim becomes less of a priority in those situations. Darkfall seemed to handle it decently well, but there were a host of other issues which make it hard for me to use them as a good example (not the least of which being the lag spikes). In smaller scale pvp it works great, but as the numbers go up I think tab targeting becomes better.

    It's true that you don't have to have consideration for the characters between you and the enemy in terms of casting a spell or shooting an arrow, but positioning is still important in tab target style. Though it's called "tab" targeting, when you are dealing with dozens or more people on a single battlefield it isn't as easy as hit TAB and attack. You can still hide squishy targets in the back making them harder to find, healers can still hang back maintaining LOS on just their group, etc. What I primarily meant about comparing tactics vs. twitch based skill was that the skill focus for each system was different. It's the same when comparing MOBA games to FPS games. MOBA's aren't a simple button smashing game. If that were true then there wouldn't be a clear gap between top tier teams and your average player.

    My opinions come from my experience in MMO's and various other online games throughout the years. Specifically I'll point to my favorite MMO of all time which to be perfectly honest holds many similarities to what has been shown in AoC so far. That game was Shadowbane. It had character classes, a complete focus on PvP, city sieges where you would literally have 200 people on each side of a fight, etc..It had tab targeting, and it was a very high skill game. Skill came in many forms. At the micro level there was character building, maximizing the timing sequence of your skills, and knowing when to debuff/stun an enemy or heal/buff an ally. At the macro level it required all of the micro pieces plus team coordination, positioning, etc..

    A more action based system could work, but tab targeting is a safer bet for the reasons above and probably a some others since it has been tested so many times. Primarily though, my point was to offer a rebuttal to the OP's implications of how tab targeting was just a keyboard smashing affair.
  • There are a slew of MMO's that have successfully built a working FPS game. MMORPG's...Darkfall is one of the few but if that development team can make an amazing Free aim FPS MMORPG then one with this amount of funding should blow them out of the water. Aventurine was in my opinion the worst gaming and development companies ever but they somehow pulled it off. Regarding BDO lol....it may have been a type of free aim but the pvp system was so utterly terrible it totally overshadowed the whole system...was just terrible. Desync was not a huge issue in Darkfall unless there were more than a few hundred people in an area with an engine that was created by a small terrible development team...I'm not sure if it's just game companies being lazy or if the technology is just not there yet but desync seems to be a problem in every MMO in situations over a few hundred players in a small area. I'm hoping chronicles of Elyria and their new tech they are using will possibly fix the lag in high population fights. We shall see.
  • Well, I don't know how much we can really call Darkfall successful. The aim mechanics sure, but successful FPS orient MMO's are few and far between. Even just focusing on the success of the mechanics, the number of MMO's which have pulled off a good action combat system when there are fights with a potentially very large number of players on the field are even fewer (large scale fights would appear to be a thing in AoC).

    The most successful MMO's of the last 10 years have almost universally had tab targeting systems (WoW, Guild Wars 1 & 2, Eve online, Final Fantasy XI & XIV). There are reasons for that which go beyond the aim system, but one it's hard to argue that tab targeting does not work. Also, if we're not talking about Call of Duty style mechanics, then the action based MMO systems we have seen have not been anything like the high precision required for pulling off that long range head shot with a Sniper Rifle. To use Darkfall as an example. There was aim involved, but it was just as much of a spam fest as any tab targeting system I have ever seen. The precision required in that system wasn't overly challenging. Good aim was better than bad aim, but the skill cap for aiming wasn't wildly higher than the skill floor.

    One thing I left out previously is that I also think these FPS mechanic systems almost universally cut the support class out of the game. The mechanics of needing to aim in a MMO would not dissuade me from the game, but a lack of well rounded group composition would. I miss the holy trinity.
  • [quote quote=5087]
    Give us a good example of an MMORPG action game that gets the job done right.
    [/quote]

    This is kind of a cheep shot because we don't have a lot of MMOs to go off of. The majority of action MMOs we are getting are coming from the east and seem to fail for reasons other then their combat, like p2w and grindy mechanics. I also don't see a lot of new tab target games being made and soaring into popularity.

    @Affy

    Thanks for the reply and for bringing up darkfall.

    Performance is a hard thing to talk about because you are right in that tab targeting is easier and there is no getting around that. As you pointed out though, darkfall was able to figure something out and that game was made ~10 years ago by a small studio. I want to say someone could make it better and the devs are also using an engine that is made for this style game. It looks like BDO was also able to pull it off big 100+ v 100+ battles.

    I still want to push back against your tactics argument because free aiming systems has the same thing. When you add in collision, there becomes more as your tanks are also physically blocking for your healers. This more true to the fantasy imo. Just because it requires aiming does mean the focus is of the system is on 'twitch.' Is horizon zero dawn, skyrim, or zelda breath of the wild about twitch? Should skyrim be tab target because it's not about 360 no scoping? Most action MMOs that use aiming don't use twitch aiming so i don't know why it's should be considered a focus of the system.

    Why do you think Darkfalls large scale combat would have been better as tab target? I think this is where we disagree. I'm extremely sorry if a straw man you here. I'm going to assume that you didn't like darkfall's large scale battles because it was harder to focus targets but this is why i loved it. I don't want to play a game where 100 people can press a focus macro, use an ability, and i'm dead. This is the biggest reasons i want free aim. I play melee and big fights aren't fun for me if it's so easy for me to be focused. I like free aiming systems, where big battles naturally get broken up into smaller ones because of how hard it can be for a large number of people to aim at one point. To me this is a great thing. If we have big battles and death is supposed to matter then we need it harder for big groups to single out one target.

    it would almost be poetic if you primarily play range.
  • [quote quote=5087]
    Give us a good example of an MMORPG action game that gets the job done right.
    [/quote]

    This is kind of a cheep shot because we don't have a lot of MMOs to go off of. The majority of action MMOs we are getting are coming from the east and seem to fail for reasons other then their combat, like p2w and grindy mechanics. I also don't see a lot of new tab target games being made and soaring into popularity.

    @Affy

    Thanks for the reply and for bringing up darkfall.

    Performance is a hard thing to talk about because you are right in that tab targeting is easier and there is no getting around that. As you pointed out though, darkfall was able to figure it out and that game was made ~10 years ago by a small studio. I want to say someone could make it better and the devs are also using an engine that is made for this style game. It looks like BDO was also able to pull it off big 100+ v 100+ battles.

    I still want to push back against your tactics argument because free aiming systems has the same thing. When you add in collision, there is more to it then just trying to hide as your tanks are also physically blocking for your healers. Just because it requires aiming does mean the focus is of the system is on 'twitch.' Is horizon zero dawn, skyrim, or zelda breath of the wild about twitch? Should skyrim be tab target because it's not about 360 no scoping? Most action MMOs that use aiming aren't "twitchy" so i don't know why it should be considered a focus of the system.

    Why do you think Darkfalls large scale combat would have been better as tab target? I think this is where we disagree. I'm extremely sorry if a straw man you here. I'm going to assume that you didn't like darkfall's large scale battles because it was harder to focus targets but this is why i loved it. I don't want to play a game where 100 people can press a focus macro, use an ability, and i'm dead. This is the biggest reasons i want free aim. I play melee and big fights aren't fun for me if it's so easy for me to be focused. I like free aiming systems, where big battles naturally get broken up into smaller ones because of how hard it is for a large number of people to aim at one point. To me this is a great thing. If we have big battles and death is supposed to matter then we need it harder for big groups to single out one target.
  • [quote quote=5087]
    Give us a good example of an MMORPG action game that gets the job done right.
    [/quote]

    Wildstar. Best raiding and combat in any MMORPG ive ever played. Too bad the studio botched every single big release for it and drove the game into the ground. I am currently looking around for another game to play and dont think I could go back to tab targeting after playing wildstar.
  • [quote quote=5045]I’m happy they are going with a Tab Target system. Action MMOs are typically gimmicky and I’d rather them focus on other cool features rather than spend all their time trying to manage a gimmicky system that is bound to have issues.

    [/quote]

    It felt gimmicky in those games, because that's what those games were designed for. It's like their devs approached the whole game from the angle "<em>here's a great action combat system, let's slap some sort of game on top of it</em>".

    A game with action combat can work just fine, as long as combat is not the sole reason for the game's existence. After all, what MMOs call "action combat" is nothing but the good old system we know from FPS games. It feels natural and makes more sense than tab targeting, especially now that network tech is miles ahead of what we had when first MMOs started 15- 20 years ago.

    The fact that games like Tera or Vindictus have nothing to offer beyond their combat does not automatically mean action combat is bad or gimmicky. It just needs to be done right and blend into the game itself and not have the rest of the game as a cheap afterthought.
  • Agreeing with Shikya, there are many ways to implement Tab targeting. I would not give up on the game just yet. ;)

    For all we know they could be implementing the best tab targeting system know to the world...evah.

    I for one can go either way, Tab or Free-Aim and will wait and see what they offer us. Hopefully the Alpha-invited can start laying down good advice / suggestions! No pressure Alpha-invites, no pressure at all... ;)
  • Clearly OP is a bit of an elitist. If you've been playing any game for a while, you know that there are MANY styles of play and people with disabilities that can play but only a certain way. I personally don't like point/cursor targeting and prefer tab overall.
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